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Xbox One's Crushed Blacks, is it a simple fix?

I

Izuna

Banned
I didn't know that this issue extended to Netflix, I figured it was games only and just the games that were lower than 1080p.

Watching the same show with my laptop connected to the monitor vs. using the Xbox One is night and day.

I know we got some feedback over this issue, but can this even be fixed via software? MS have been doing a great job giving us features and such, but this seems like a pretty fundamental issue and is a lot worse than 900p.
 
T

Two Words

Member
A lot of people seem to like it without knowing better. I've heard people complain that PS4 games look washed out in comparison and worse because of it. So I doubt MS will change it.
 
1

10k

Banned
Isn't crushed blacks an issue when your tv and console are not both set to limited or full?
 
N

Noobcraft

Member
Have you calibrated your TV using the Xbox One's calibration feature (found under settings)? Also make sure your RGB settings (limited or full) are correct for your TV.
 
S

Spider_Jerusalem

Member
On my TV (a Bravia LED), it only does it if I set the output to PC. Using the standard setting I've got no problems. I've got an Epson projector too, and didn't notice it there, too.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
I don't own an xbox one and part of the reason is that every time I see one running the IQ just looks bad to me. MS should definitely fix this
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Two Words said:
A lot of people seem to like it without knowing better. I've heard people complain that PS4 games look washed out in comparison and worse because of it. So I doubt MS will change it.
Click to expand...

People also love salt, fat, and sugar: which is why its added to everything in the grocery store. Oversaturated oversharpened images with the ends crushed are the same.

As for the crush / incorrect gamma issue, I believe MS had this problem on the 360 as well and like then developers have been using their own software scaling solutions to get around it.

It is a bit weird that its persisted through two generations and not fixed, but then again as said a lot of people subjectively like it so it's not like complaint are rolling in.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Noobcraft said:
Have you calibrated your TV using the Xbox One's calibration feature (found under settings)? Also make sure your RGB settings (limited or full) are correct for your TV.
Click to expand...
How do you know what's "correct" for your TV?

Do you just mean it has to correspond with the same setting on your TV?
 
I

Izuna

Banned
Noobcraft said:
Have you calibrated your TV using the Xbox One's calibration feature (found under settings)? Also make sure your RGB settings (limited or full) are correct for your TV.
Click to expand...

Yes, I take calibration pretty seriously. I am currently watching White Collar and there are some scenes on the Xbox One where no matter how much I increase the brightness, someone's eyes are completely shadowed by crushed blacks. On the laptop it works perfectly fine.

It's especially annoying because my laptop (Surface Pro) doesn't have Ethernet and I never seem to get the same quality (bitrate) as I do with the Xbox One.
 
G

Goodacre0081

Member
Killer-Instinct-Comparison.gif
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
The Lamonster said:
How do you know what's "correct" for your TV?

Do you just mean it has to correspond with the same setting on your TV?
Click to expand...

Most TVs are correct with the "limited" setting and PC monitors with the "full range" setting. More recent TVs can use "full range," but the blacks levels must be set appropriately in your tv menu or sometimes this is set automatically (like my TV). For some reason my TV won't select the full range mode automatically when XB1 is connected (it works fine with ALL other devices I've tested), so I just set my XB1 to limited range and call it a day. This still doesn't fix the crushed blacks issue still present in many sub-1080p games that use the hardware scaler. Games that use their own software scaler don't seem to have the issue (Ryse, Frostbyte Engine games).

nynt9 said:
Isn't it because of their upscaler? So content that doesn't need to be upscaled wouldn't have this issue? Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Click to expand...

It seems so. See above. :)

Also, when I use a PC monitor and set the XB1 to "limited range," games like DR3 and Killer Instinct suddenly don't have crushed blacks (gamma is corrected in the scaled image). The UI (rendered in 1080p) and 1080p games look washed out, then. It seems to me that the second display plane (used for the 3d rendered image in upscaled games) is just being output in an incorrect RGB range.
 
G

GamingIsDead

Member
Noobcraft said:
Have you calibrated your TV using the Xbox One's calibration feature (found under settings)? Also make sure your RGB settings (limited or full) are correct for your TV.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't have to change a thing on your TV just because you're using a different device. 360 was never fixed and I found it useless for videos because of it.

Sooner people accept its a real problem the quicker it will be fixed.
 
D

DrPreston

Member
It's like Beats headphones with their blown out bass. Most people don't know better, and think that the crushed blacks are more visually appealing for some stupid reason.
 
R

Ruprit

Member
GamingIsDead said:
You shouldn't have change a thing on your TV just because you're using a different device. 360 was never fixed and I found it useless for videos because of it.

Sooner people accept its a real problem the quicker it will be fixed.
Click to expand...

Exactly, Microsoft uses a skewed gamma path that deviates from your standard sRGB or Gamma 2.2; making calibration a royal pain.

This blog post goes into greater detail about the issue: http://filmicgames.com/archives/14
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
DrPreston said:
It's like Beats headphones with their blown out bass. Most people don't know better, and think that the crushed blacks are more visually appealing for some stupid reason.
Click to expand...

Yup. Just like extremely blue gray scales and dynamic contrast on television sets. It's annoying and I get angry at MS all over again every time I'm reminded of the issue. Albert Penello said he'll pass on our concerns in a previous thread, but my confidence isn't the highest that this will get fixed. I think MS does it on purpose.

Ruprit said:
Exactly, Microsoft uses a skewed gamma path that deviates from your standard sRGB or Gamma 2.2; making calibration a royal pain.

This blog post goes into greater detail about the issue: http://filmicgames.com/archives/14
Click to expand...

It's more than that this time, though. That skewed gamma path seems to exist in 1080p games (it's very noticeable in Madden), but there is also a black crush effect that exists in the 3d rendered image for games that are upscaled by the XB1 hardware. So yeah, it's even worse when compared to 360.
 
P

pixlexic

Banned
Also want to add that this contrast filtering makes aliasing look worse than it really is.
It's not doing the 900 p games any favors.
 
P

pixlexic

Banned
izunadono said:
The crushed picture is what we get.
Click to expand...

He is saying where does the non crushed pic come from?

The thing is there is a difference between being "dark" and being "crushed". But ithe terminology doesn't really matter. They just need to turn it off.
 
R

Ruprit

Member
Team Vernia said:
It's more than that this time, though. That skewed gamma path seems to exist in 1080p games (it's very noticeable in Madden), but there is also a black crush effect that exists in the 3d rendered image for games that are upscaled by the XB1 hardware. So yeah, it's even worse when compared to 360.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that. I was under the impression that Xbox One used an even more aggressive gamma path. Are you saying that in some cases, one would potentially have to calibrate on a per-game basis?
 
I

Izuna

Banned
pixlexic said:
He is saying where does the non crushed pic come from?

The thing is there is a difference between being "dark" and being "crushed". But ithe terminology doesn't really matter. They just need to turn it off.
Click to expand...

Crushed implies that the information is lost. Dark doesn't really cause a problem because I could just had a different profile for the HDMI channel the One is hooked up to.

No matter what you do on the One atm, you cannot get rid of the crushed blacks. I don't know about this particular image however.
 
Z

Zabka

Member
pixlexic said:
He is saying where does the non crushed pic come from?

The thing is there is a difference between being "dark" and being "crushed". But ithe terminology doesn't really matter. They just need to turn it off.
Click to expand...

I vaguely recall someone found that hitting the guide button gives you a single transition frame without the filter and took a bunch of screenshots like that.
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
Zabka said:
I vaguely recall someone found that hitting the guide button gives you a single transition frame without the filter and took a bunch of screenshots like that.
Click to expand...

This happens with Killer Instinct. You can see the filter applied in realtime within the game's menus.

izunadono said:
Afaik they simply fixed the sharpness issue.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and they ignored the gamma issue. I refuse to believe they don't know it exists.
 
madjackal

madjackal

Member
I've been trying to calibrate my set for XBO, games seem to be a bit better now, but I'm still getting some crushed blacks on Netflix. Is there a site that has a database of good calibration settings for different TV makes/models?
 
W

w00zey

Member
Mine was pretty simple to fix. From what I remember i just switched the video setting to limited, or at least whatever it was set to is what I set it off of. It was really easy to do if you go to the training dojo of KI2. The grid in the back will be blatantly obvious as to whether it is happening or not and once you switch you will see a ton more of the grid.
 
VE3TRO

VE3TRO

Formerly Gizmowned
Here is how it works out on my LED when adjusting the TV or PC mode on Display and Sound on the XB1 menu.


  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Too Bright Washed Out
  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Looks Perfect
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Looks Same as 2nd - May Differs A Small Bit
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Crushed Blacks
Also just last night I was messing around with the display options on the Xbox 360. GTA 5 looks flat on YCbCr709 but is overkill on Expanded/RGB and Standard/RGB seems to be the same as YCbCr709. But on Intermediate/RGB looks much better. Doesn't look washed out and doesn't crush blacks or pop the whites. YCbCr601 only adjusts certain colours.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
w00zey said:
Mine was pretty simple to fix. From what I remember i just switched the video setting to limited, or at least whatever it was set to is what I set it off of. It was really easy to do if you go to the training dojo of KI2. The grid in the back will be blatantly obvious as to whether it is happening or not and once you switch you will see a ton more of the grid.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately this isn't true.
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
VE3TRO said:
Here is how it works out on my LED when adjusting the TV or PC mode on Display and Sound on the XB1 menu.


  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Too Bright Washed Out
  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Looks Perfect
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Looks Same as 2nd - May Differs A Small Bit
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Crushed Blacks
Also just last night I was messing around with the display options on the Xbox 360. GTA 5 looks flat on YCbCr709 but is overkill on Expanded/RGB and Standard/RGB seems to be the same as YCbCr709. But on Intermediate/RGB looks much better. Doesn't look washed out and doesn't crush blacks or pop the whites. YCbCr601 only adjusts certain colours.
Click to expand...

That still doesn't help with the crushed blacks in games that use the XB1 scaler.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
VE3TRO said:
Here is how it works out on my LED when adjusting the TV or PC mode on Display and Sound on the XB1 menu.


  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Too Bright Washed Out
  • TV Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Looks Perfect
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Normal = Looks Same as 2nd - May Differs A Small Bit
  • PC Mode on XB1 + HDMI Black Level on TV @ Low = Crushed Blacks
Also just last night I was messing around with the display options on the Xbox 360. GTA 5 looks flat on YCbCr709 but is overkill on Expanded/RGB and Standard/RGB seems to be the same as YCbCr709. But on Intermediate/RGB looks much better. Doesn't look washed out and doesn't crush blacks or pop the whites. YCbCr601 only adjusts certain colours.
Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with crushed blacks though...
 
SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
VE3TRO said:
Well I don't have the problem.
Click to expand...

Everyone has it.

EDIT: Correction: If your RGB range setting is set to limited and is connected to a PC monitor or a television that expects a full range image, you won't suffer from crushed blacks, but anything rendered in 1080p will be washed out.
 
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