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100+ hours of Destiny has shown me the true enemy.

GrizzNKev

Banned
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I have played and replayed and played again. They took my time through giving me a goal and forcing me to repeat content an absolutely insane number of times, rarely if ever giving me what I actually need to feel like I've accomplished something.

Bungie knows how to make games where the reward for playing is the inherent fun you feel while playing. They've done it before, many times. Fair, interesting gameplay systems that promote fun over all else. They've overshadowed this with something much darker and more sinister. Now the gameplay is a means to an end, a certain number that says only that I'm luckier than you, or spent much more time playing than you. There is no measurement of skill that can be seen just by looking at a player anywhere inside the game.

These elements, these specific random elements, have not contributed to my enjoyment of video games. I'm not talking about random gameplay elements, but the false drought of positive emotions created by a carefully crafted intentional starvation. No reward without punishment in excess first. Does it matter how good you are? No. Will it ever, at least with Destiny? No. It's dumb. There's nothing fun about it.

Bungie, you went the wrong way. Find a way to make us care, find a way to make us want to be better players rather than convince us that all we need to do to achieve the goals you placed before us is spend more time playing for another chance to roll the dice. Again, you've done it before. Measure our skill, show us, show other players, and reward that. Like you used to.

Edit: I'm making this addition to the OP to address the most common response to my thread:

Plenty of other people have pointed out that marks and rep can be used to buy legendary gear. Yeah, I did that in the first week the game was out. Once you do that, winning doesn't matter anymore. Once you have a full legendary + one exotic set your new wall is the raid, which you have to play once a week to get a chance to roll the dice for better armor. I think everyone missed my point. I've been wearing faction armor since before the Vault of Glass opened, and I have been playing it every week. And every week, I do not get any raid armor. It took until my third run for me to get anything other than ascendant materials, mostly energy. I hit the progression wall of Destiny within just a few days. The game was too shallow and I have been hitting my head against RNG for weeks. I wanted Destiny to be a game I could always come back to and have something to work towards, but the reality is the random drop design of the raid is just delaying me from putting the game down by dangling level 30 above my head.

There is a solution for people like me, people who have done and seen everything but want a reason to keep playing between their weekly raid attempts, and something to keep doing once they're max level. PvP, as it has always been for Bungie, would be the right place to do that. A separate balanced mode that tracks our skill level would make me want to play every day rather than once a week, and would keep me playing indefinitely. But as has also been said in this thread, this can't possibly exist in Destiny because it would conflict with the idea of gear and a persistent character. The need for this system to run beneath every element of the game has crippled is longevity and prevented hardcore players from wanting to stick with it long term.
 
They need to fix the crucible so no fucking gun can kill you in one shot. Maybe a sniper rifle head shot. But that's it.
 
Or you could just play MCC and get rewarded for skill.

I stopped playing Destiny quickly when I realized how random everything in that game is. I have just as good of a chance to get an exotic weapon in the crucible as someone who puts their controller down and walks away during the match. Bungie has turned into a joke. They would rather have instant gratification and pandering to everyone than skill.
 
I spend 10 hours a day on destiny and yet I feel I'm still not having enough time to play enough. This game is a huge time sink and I have a huge problem too
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
Or you could just play MCC and get rewarded for skill.

I'm well aware, and it's very enticing.

I stopped playing Destiny quickly when I realized how random everything in that game is. I have just as good of a chance to get an exotic weapon in the crucible as someone who puts their controller down and walks away during the match. Bungie has turned into a joke. They would rather have instant gratification and pandering to everyone than skill.

It's not even that I don't like it because it's not like Halo. It's just in the exact opposite direction of all the core values that made me appreciate what Bungie did. I thought, even if the IP changed, those values wouldn't. I don't like the kind of game Destiny is.
 

rouken

Member
Or you could just play MCC and get rewarded for skill.

I stopped playing Destiny quickly when I realized how random everything in that game is. I have just as good of a chance to get an exotic weapon in the crucible as someone who puts their controller down and walks away during the match. Bungie has turned into a joke.

amen
 
I got the Ice Breaker after countless hours of Nightfall, Raid and PVP with main and alternate character, was so happy until two days later Xur sold it for 17 puny coins. Yeah I haven't played much after that.
 
I think it really hit me when I played a raid for 1.5 hours, led my team in kills, assists, and had the least amount of deaths, and got rewarded absolutely zilch while my teammates who hid in a corner and died 10+ times got great loot.
 

MilkBeard

Member
I understand the issue, as I agree that once you get in the level 25-30 range, the game becomes a hard grind. But past a certain point you don't even really need to play anymore- getting to 30 is just a number, and there's not much use to get there, say, past level 28. At least until Bungie adds more content.

I am going to continue to play the game and eventually get to level 30, as I know inevitably at some point they may raise the level cap (I hope they do anyway, and also add a lot more gear options).

One way I think they should improve the system is to allow more ways to get materials and gear. Because most options don't even allow you a surefire way to get something, you will be repeating some things multiple times without even getting anything. This is of course a problem. However, it hasn't detracted so much from my playtime, and I've put a ton of time into the game (I'm a level 28 Warlock).
 

Derpcrawler

Member
I've cleared normal raid 9 times on my 2 Warlocks, I've cleared hard mode twice. I got shards or useless loot over and over again (6+ shotguns from Templar anyone)?

I have 2 sets of gear - level 29 proper with high int/disc (95/97% reduction) and level 30 one with shitty stats - int/disc/str(83/61/35%). I haven't seen helmet drop at least once, I got my first pair of gloves yesterday on hard, with shitty full strength roll. Then 2nd time we do Hard mode, we invite 6th person, someones friend who didn't even clear normal (I think), just on Atheon kill he gets Timebreaker, Mythocast and Disc/Int helmet. When all I see is shards and shotguns, such shit is discouraging and damn annoying. I am ready to give up on this shitty game.
 

RedEther

Member
I think it really hit me when I played a raid for 1.5 hours, led my team in kills, assists, and had the least amount of deaths, and got rewarded absolutely zilch while my teammates who hid in a corner and died 10+ times got great loot.

Damn that absolutely sucks
 
I don't know what everyone expected after Reach...

Destiny is a continuation of what they started with Reach but with a crappy loot system.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
I got the Ice Breaker after countless hours of Nightfall, Raid and PVP with main and alternate character, was so happy until two days later Xur sold it for 17 puny coins. Yeah I haven't played much after that.

I got it as a random drop while patrolling on earth 2 weeks ago. shrug.
 
Or you could just play MCC and get rewarded for skill.

I stopped playing Destiny quickly when I realized how random everything in that game is. I have just as good of a chance to get an exotic weapon in the crucible as someone who puts their controller down and walks away during the match. Bungie has turned into a joke. They would rather have instant gratification and pandering to everyone than skill.
This.

Its not like Bungie could have used the resources of this big publisher of loot based games like WoW and Diablo, right?

...So what you're saying is, it's an MMO.
MMOs usally have specific loot tables for bosses (so you can caclulate what boss kills can get you the best upgrades for your character), they dont go the full RNG way
 

squidyj

Member
I think it really hit me when I played a raid for 1.5 hours, led my team in kills, assists, and had the least amount of deaths, and got rewarded absolutely zilch while my teammates who hid in a corner and died 10+ times got great loot.

thats raiding though..... itd be incredibly stupid to reward kill counts or death counts or anything of the sort.

and yeah, it's basically an MMO and i honestly think people are dumb to expect it to play and reward you like a straight FPS.
 
thats raiding though..... itd be incredibly stupid to reward kill counts or death counts or anything of the sort.

and yeah, it's basically an MMO and i honestly think people are dumb to expect it to play and reward you like a straight FPS.

So reward it by what? What more do you do in destiny than hold down the right trigger at bullet sponges? Is there some sort of objective other than this that I should be rewarded on?

Like what is the gameplay besides shooting a bunch of aliens? Where else am I supposed to be rewarded?
 

NewGame

Banned
Drop rates are always the enemy. Always.

Maybe play better games? Stuff you actually enjoying playing for 100 hours not just what video game got the most ad space at walmart.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
...So what you're saying is, it's an MMO.

When I spent immeasurable amounts of time playing Halo 3, I always asked myself, "Why do I keep playing?" My answer to that was, to get better. Why get better? To increase my skill rank. Why increase my skill rank? So people know I'm better than them, and that feels good. The path to actually being better is both difficult and rewarding. Communication and coordination skills are the foundation. Execution is euphoria.

When I play Destiny now, I ask myself the same question. What, ultimately, is the goal of continuing? To have another chance to roll the dice. Why roll again? To make the hard raid possible. Why play the raid on hard? So I can roll the dice again. It doesn't feel right.
 

GlamFM

Banned
I think it really hit me when I played a raid for 1.5 hours, led my team in kills, assists, and had the least amount of deaths, and got rewarded absolutely zilch while my teammates who hid in a corner and died 10+ times got great loot.

I read stuff like this a million times now and it´s still stupid.

If you reward only the best players you will split and in the end destroy your community in no time.

The best would only get better and the less skilled players would have no chance to ever catch up.
 

MilkBeard

Member
and yeah, it's basically an MMO and i honestly think people are dumb to expect it to play and reward you like a straight FPS.

Yeah I agree. I came into this not knowing what to expect and I've had a great time. I can see some of the flaws now that I've done everything there is to do, but it's a fun game if you stop worrying about getting exact rewards and just play if you enjoy it.

That's my opinion anyway, and I'm not a huge shooter fan. I suppose Bungie wanted to draw a more general audience with this game--and I think it worked. The only sacrifice was their previous hardcore audience. As for me, I like Destiny, but I still have no desire to play Halo. The RPG-loot and world exploration pulled me in, and I stayed for the solid gameplay mechanics. Without the world exploration and the loot/leveling, I would be bored.
 
What fucks me off is that I see people around me who've put half the time into the game as I have, who are now higher level due to crazy armour drops (I've found nothing), and multiple Exotic weapons, all from drops.

I have 1 Exotic weapon which I bought (Ice Breaker), and I don't have a single Legendary Primary weapon of any kind.

It's all sorts of unfair :/
 
I read stuff like this a million times now and it´s still stupid.

If you reward only the best players you will split and in the end destroy your community in no time.

The best would only get better and the less skilled players would have no chance to ever catch up.

So what you are saying is that if I get 100 kills and 0 deaths and my opponent gets 0 kills and 100 deaths, we should have an equal chance at a reward? Is this little league baseball?
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
I read stuff like this a million times now and it´s still stupid.

If you reward only the best players you will split and in the end destroy your community in no time.

The best would only get better and the less skilled players would have no chance to ever catch up.

The problem isn't the system, it's what it's built on. Give everyone the same tools, and the same opportunity to get better. The better players will rise naturally. What's the point of leaving it to chance?

Right now, in Destiny, there's no way of knowing whether someone is better than you. In Halo, that was earned through consistency.
 
I read stuff like this a million times now and it´s still stupid.

If you reward only the best players you will split and in the end destroy your community in no time.

The best would only get better and the less skilled players would have no chance to ever catch up.

Instead you have good players getting bored in no time flat and watching as RNG is literally king, or grinding rep. I want to just play WoW instead of this garbage.
 
Drop rates are always the enemy. Always.

Maybe play better games? Stuff you actually enjoying playing for 100 hours not just what video game got the most ad space at walmart.
Whenever we see a game with the majority of its content locked away, either through XP leveling, building up your fortune in cash, faction rep, or randomized loot, its worth taking a few moments to imagine how much interest you'd find in the game if you started it day one with everything unlocked.

Would there still be a game there to hold your interest? For how long?
 

MilkBeard

Member
So what you are saying is that if I get 100 kills and 0 deaths and my opponent gets 0 kills and 100 deaths, we should have an equal chance at a reward? Is this little league baseball?

No, it's called you get a chance to get something for playing the game. Your skill will put you at the top of the list, but it doesn't factor for loot.

Why is this such a hard concept to fathom? Maybe Bungie should put a coliseum type option in the game so people will stop complaining about this.
 

GlamFM

Banned
What fucks me off is that I see people around me who've put half the time into the game as I have, who are now higher level due to crazy armour drops (I've found nothing), and multiple Exotic weapons, all from drops.

I have 1 Exotic weapon which I bought (Ice Breaker), and I don't have a single Legendary Primary weapon of any kind.

It's all sorts of unfair :/

They were probably just smarter than you and bought their legendary stuff from vendors.
Work on your rep, get the weekly marks - buy stuff.

So what you are saying is that if I get 100 kills and 0 deaths and my opponent gets 0 kills and 100 deaths, we should have an equal chance at a reward? Is this little league baseball?

That´s exactly what I´m saying.

The problem isn't the system, it's what it's built on. Give everyone the same tools, and the same opportunity to get better. The better players will rise naturally. What's the point of leaving it to chance?

Right now, in Destiny, there's no way of knowing whether someone is better than you. In Halo, that was earned through consistency.

Sure there is - there is a leaderboard at the end of every match - how is that different from Halo?
 
No, it's called you get a chance to get something for playing the game. Your skill will put you at the top of the list, but it doesn't factor for loot.

Why is this such a hard concept to fathom? Maybe Bungie should put a coliseum type option in the game so people will stop complaining about this.

That's dumb and why so many people hate this game. What is the point of playing If there's no reason to try? I can just put my controller down and still get the same loot as someone who is actually trying.
 
When I spent immeasurable amounts of time playing Halo 3, I always asked myself, "Why do I keep playing?" My answer to that was, to get better. Why get better? To increase my skill rank. Why increase my skill rank? So people know I'm better than them, and that feels good. The path to actually being better is both difficult and rewarding. Communication and coordination skills are the foundation. Execution is euphoria.

When I play Destiny now, I ask myself the same question. What, ultimately, is the goal of continuing? To have another chance to roll the dice. Why roll again? To make the hard raid possible. Why play the raid on hard? So I can roll the dice again. It doesn't feel right.

The stuff you wrote about Halo 3 could just as easily be repurposed to describe an MMO.

When I spent immeasurable amounts of time playing WoW, I always asked myself, "Why do I keep playing?" My answer to that was, to get better. Why get better? To increase my gear and item level. Why increase my gear and item level? So people know I'm better than them, and that feels good. The path to actually being better is both difficult and rewarding. Communication and coordination skills are the foundation. Execution is euphoria.
 

MilkBeard

Member
That's dumb and why so many people hate this game. What is the point of playing If there's no reason to try? I can just put my controller down and still get the same loot as someone who is actually trying.

But no one actually does that. Because we all play games to have fun and/or to achieve a good skill. That's enough for most games, why not multiplayer in Destiny? Oh yeah, if you put your controller down the game will log you out anyways.
 

Hasney

Member
I can understand why people would be hooked on the game if you have an addictive personality as it's the same as a lot of games like it. keep playing the same thing over and over to get something purple, bitch when it's not what you want and repeat.

The patrol exploration was constantly dull and I audibly sighed when I had a bounty to do 6 missions, there isn't enough content to want to replay anything because I probably did that same mission within the week.

I started playing off the back of Final Fantasy XIV which has a lot more content and varied missions and I could jump in with randoms, talk to them and go through some fun mechanics on boss fights that aren't just a big bullet sponge. I never minded replaying them again and getting the daily grind missions doesn't feel as much of a chore as Bungie made Destiny feel. I don't expect more content than a monthly sub MMO, but even Planetside 2 has them beat... And I can play that for free.
 
I guess people like playing games that require 0 effort.. Everyone gets a trophy! Let's all be best buds and share loot, everyone wins!
 

MilkBeard

Member
I guess people like playing games that require 0 effort.. Everyone gets a trophy! Let's all be best buds and share loot, everyone wins!

Lol that's only the loot drops for multiplayer. The raid and high level strikes require effort. But it's not always about effort. People play games because they like them. It's a simple concept.
 

PepperedHam

Member
I guess people like playing games that require 0 effort.. Everyone gets a trophy! Let's all be best buds and share loot, everyone wins!
Are you implying it's that easy to get loot in Destiny? It's an absolute monstrosity in terms of RNG, so regardless of how much you AFK you aren't getting anything any easier, you just aren't moving your thumbs.
 
But no one actually does that. Because we all play games to have fun and/or to achieve a good skill. That's enough for most games, why not multiplayer in Destiny? Oh yeah, if you put your controller down the game will log you out anyways.

There is no indication of anyone's skill. I could be the best player in all of Destiny but have worse loot than someone who is horrible at the game because Bungie rolled the dice and gace it to him. That's not how good games function. I can't think of a single good MP/MMO games that does this.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
Sure there is - there is a leader board at the end of every match - how is that different from Halo?

In Halo 2 and 3 and in a slightly different way in Reach, there was a direct symbol which indicated the overall skill rating of players which could be seen before a match started. That why I said the word consistency. A consistently good player would be seen as good. Good players can be having a bad day, but as long as they're more good than bad, you'll be able to tell.

In the best organized, team based mode, my K/D Ratio is 1.73. I'm not going to say I'm a great player but I lean toward good. My overall PvP is about 1.5. But there's no way to see this in the actual game. Ultimately, from the perspective of the game's systems, it doesn't matter, so outside of the game's website, it's invisible.

The game doesn't care if you're good, and it makes being good boring.
 
I got the Ice Breaker after countless hours of Nightfall, Raid and PVP with main and alternate character, was so happy until two days later Xur sold it for 17 puny coins. Yeah I haven't played much after that.

Xur should not be selling exotics full stop but it's destiny's way to counter the huge RNG for loot and keep people happy who can't find what they want.

Destiny suffers the most from not having more goals to work towards, exotics should be boss drops with a few percent chance to drop, right now a boss is nothing more then a bigger mob with more HP, they don't drop or change the loot system at all.

Adding engrams to vanguard tiger runs helps but it's still a huge roll of the dice and causes people to quit out of runs unless it's a quick strike like earth or the moon.
 

Carn82

Member
Work on your rep, get the weekly marks - buy stuff.

Yep.

gear:
- I got my legendary helmet through a queens bounty (the earth one, really easy).
- bought legendary vanguard boots
- bought legendary vanguard armor
- bought legendary class item
- bought legendary gloves; but shredded them because I got I actuall got a usuable legendary engrem.

So yeah, I bought most of my stuff and happened to run into 1 usuable drop.

Weapons:
- did the invective bounty
- bought ice breaker
- legendary engram got me The Cure (rocketlauncher)

So yeah, only 1 decent drop again.

I did have some other legendary drops but they werent for my class. I almost have complete legendary Titan-gear (with exotic helmet) waiting in the Vault ;o

My point: Game is much more fun if you just buy the stuff and consider drops as an extra. Sure, some people will get lucky, but the grass is always greener somewhere else.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

Because this topic has really dominated post release discussions (outside the OT at least) I'm way less inclined to pick up the game now. Sounds like a digital equivalent of a rat wheel.

Will Bungie stick to their guns or make bold changes like Blizzard?
Drop rates are always the enemy. Always.

Maybe play better games? Stuff you actually enjoying playing for 100 hours not just what video game got the most ad space at walmart.
Seems unfair to bring marketing budget into this. Bungie has a lot of fans on GAF. Perhaps people expect studios to deliver the same kind of experience time and time again.
 

MilkBeard

Member
There is no indication of anyone's skill. I could be the best player in all of Destiny but have worse loot than someone who is horrible at the game because Bungie rolled the dice and gace it to him. That's not how good games function. I can't think of a single good MP/MMO games that does this.

That's because you aren't supposed to get loot that way. You can, but you can get most of the high level gear from joining a faction and leveling it up through various means. I always wonder why people leave this out in their complaints of Destiny.
 

Ramstein

Banned
Maybe play better games? Stuff you actually enjoying playing for 100 hours not just what video game got the most ad space at walmart.

Daaaaaaamn. This dude says what we're all thinking but are too afraid to say. lol


What fucks me off is that I see people around me who've put half the time into the game as I have, who are now higher level due to crazy armour drops (I've found nothing), and multiple Exotic weapons, all from drops.

I have 1 Exotic weapon which I bought (Ice Breaker), and I don't have a single Legendary Primary weapon of any kind.

It's all sorts of unfair :/

Welcome to RNG. Please remove the word 'fair' from your vocabulary. You'll no longer be needing it. Also, there are no second place trophies in real life. In real life, second place is the first loser. Life isn't fair. Most MMO's aren't either. Yadda yadda yadda.
 

Ken

Member
Yep.

gear:
- I got my legendary helmet through a queens bounty (the earth one, really easy).
- bought legendary vanguard boots
- bought legendary vanguard armor
- bought legendary class item
- bought legendary gloves; but shredded them because I got I actuall got a usuable legendary engrem.

So yeah, I bought most of my stuff and happened to run into 1 usuable drop.

Weapons:
- did the invective bounty
- bought ice breaker
- legendary engram got me The Cure (rocketlauncher)

So yeah, only 1 decent drop again.

I did have some other legendary drops but they werent for my class. I almost have complete legendary Titan-gear (with exotic helmet) waiting in the Vault ;o

My point: Game is much more fun if you just buy the stuff and consider drops as an extra. Sure, some people will get lucky, but the grass is always greener somewhere else.

Do you consider getting to level 30 an extra?
 
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