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"Concern trolling" is an almost entirely BS concept/dismissal

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P

PogiJones

Banned
EDIT: Apparently concern trolling is not identical to tone policing, although I often see the term "concern trolling" used to dismiss tone-oriented meta-discussion. In my post, when I say concern trolling, I'm talking about tone policing. This is a very good (satirical) example of what I often see dismissed as concern trolling tone policing. My bad, sorry for the confusion.

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EDIT2: I may as well give my opinion on the behavior "concern trolling" apparently actually means (Person from "side A" pretends to be a member of "side B" with "concerns"). Personally, I oppose ad hominem dismissals (I've been guilty of doing it myself), and support merit-only discourse. However, Gotchaye's post raises some good utilitarian points about culturally respecting and encouraging sincerity, which would require looking beyond just the merits of the argument. But that being said, I think that, regarding forces that cause people to adopt insincere, deceptive personas and concern troll, a far more powerful motivator than accepting merit-only discourse is the ubiquitous disregarding of arguments--regardless of merit--of people who align with a different group. Merit-only discourse would fix this problem, so I believe merit-only discourse would produce less concern trolls and less insincerity, not more. Why? Because we don't care about your personal identity, we only care whether or not your argument has merit. You don't have to be deceptive to be heard. You just have to present an argument with validity. The motive to concern troll evaporates. (Edit: Well, I suppose some motives would remain...)


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-------Original OP (with strikes)(the new strikes ruin my but/and strike semi-jokes)--------
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One of my current courses is Negotiations. My professors and the authors of our texts are professional negotiation attorneys, as well as researchers on the subject.

Their life careers consist of working with opposing parties with opposing interests, and getting the most optimal result for their client.



And yet, almost everything they're teaching us would be considered concern trolling tone policing by the internet. I've seen this dismissal from virtually every side of every issue.



For example, they keep hammering upon us that we need to avoid saying "but," and instead use "and." In some situations, we're told, it's even best to meta-discuss with the opposing party about how the negotiations are going and how to improve them!

These concern trolling tone policing professors--who focus so much on small adjustments in tone and how to say things--get results. Aren't results what we all want?



Note that I put "almost" in the thread title, because, yes, there may exist somewhere a troll who really is pretending to have tonal concerns but really doesn't care and is just instigating.

But And when you receive information on how to better get what you want, dismissing the information/informant as concern trolling/a concern troll tone policing is not only fallaciously baseless, it's going counter to your own interests for whatever issue you're discussing. Even in the very rare instance the source is legitimately trolling, if the information he gives you is inaccurate, rather than dismissing what he says because you think he's a concern troll tone policing troll, you can dismiss what he says because it's inaccurate. And more importantly, if the information he gives you is accurate and will help you adjust your technique and message to more effectively convert allies and get the results you want, then you certainly are better off not dismissing what he says because you think he's a concern trolling tone policing troll. He's given you a gift, regardless of his intentions.

I've seen this dismissal from virtually every side of every issue. But And whether what an alleged concern troll says is accurate or inaccurate, there is no utility in dismissing what they say as concern trolling tone policing. Embrace the accurate, dismiss the inaccurate as inaccurate.
 
M

MoeDabs

Member
I have read and re-read your post, and yet I still do not understand what you are railing against nor how your college class has anything to do with it. All I got is you need to replace "but" with "and".
 
A

Ahasverus

Member
I understand your post OP and agree 100%.
Funny you mention the "but=and" rule, I 've been applying it from 2 months and so and it's been incrdible how much those little details help with people. Devil's in the details, never forget it.
 
K

Kaladin

Member
Wait....so you're saying if you want something, you shouldn't show concern for the person and be considerate in your negotiations? You're saying a negotiator should be a heartless individual going over terms of whatever it is you're discussing?

You will go far in the business world.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
I wouldn't equate business and legal negotiations to internet banter.

The level of training and experience a lawyer has compared to some random teenager online is also stark, so I wouldn't expect much online.

Also anytime mentions concern trolling you can tell they don't trust their arguments so they use it as tactic to stifle discussion.
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
You may have a point but being smug by proxy based on your professors expertise and saying stuff like "results, results, results" when you're just a student with no actual experience is off putting. I say this becaue your message is useful but I'm concerned that your tone detracts from it.
 
T

Trey

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
Click to expand...

When your post is loaded with doomsaying rhetoric which obfuscates the true nature of a particular situation, coloring it with your leading tone.

”I’m happy gays are gaining equality, but wouldn't children be confused if they saw two dudes kissing on TV???"
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
Click to expand...

It's pretending to be worried about a given issue, with the specific purpose of stressing out that issue. "I hope Mark's career won't suffer because of the total failure of his project !"
 
M

Mumei

Member
royalan said:
...I don't think you understand what concern trolling is.
Click to expand...

I think he might be confusing accusations of tone policing with accusations of concern trolling. They're related in the presumption of insincerity, but aren't identical.
 
T

TheRagnCajun

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
Click to expand...

Hey guys I was just playing CoD on PS4 at a freinds house and it looks sooooo much better than the Xbone version! The xbone version is shit in comparision. This sucks cause I'm a huuuuge Xbox fanboy!!! I am starting to have buyer's regret. What do you guys think? Will the xbone ports get better eventually, or are we doomed to shitty graphics for the whole generation?
 
K

kirblar

Member
The people who don't listen re: tone aren't going to listen because it won't line up with their motivations for "discussing" an issue. If you're angry and want to take that anger out on people, then you're not going to want to moderate your tone because it makes it harder for you to "express" yourself. However, if you're motivated by a desire to see change, they'll listen.

It's actually a good litmus test for who to take seriously/discuss issues with.
 
N

NoCryingUntilTheEnd

Banned
EatinOlives said:
Disguising regular trolling as "just asking questions", or posting "I'm just concerned that..." and proceeding to post untrue/inflammatory shit that the poster already knows is untrue/inflammatory.
Click to expand...

But what if the person is legitimately not trolling and is actually looking for some good arguments from the other side?

inb4imtoldimconcerntrolling
TheRagnCajun said:
Hey guys I was just playing CoD on PS4 at a freinds house and it looks sooooo much better than the Xbone version! The xbone version is shit in comparision. This sucks cause I'm a huuuuge Xbox fanboy!!! I am starting to have buyer's regret. What do you guys think? Will the xbone ports get better eventually, or are we doomed to shitty graphics for the whole generation?
Click to expand...
I believe that as more developers become acquainted with the Xbone's architecture, that they will learn how best to optimize for it, leading to nicer-looking games and more games that push 1080p and 60fps. It will never truly stack up to the PS4 as the PS4 is objectively the more powerful console, but if you cared about graphics so much, you'd assemble a gaming PC anyways.

... oh, sorry, STOP CONCERN TROLLING ASSS
 
C

commedieu

Banned
emb said:
Can you quote some posts as examples?
:p
Click to expand...

#driveclubthreads

At least I've understood it as a person with this streak of concern about the product, yet is more or less just disparaging it. "wait, theres no f14 tomcat mission in a driving game? I don't know guys, i'm concerned about Sony on this one. It might be the end."
 
Kacho

Kacho

Member
Y2Kev opened my eyes to concern trolling. Now when I see it in action I get a good laugh out of it.

I have no idea what the OP is about though.

commedieu said:
#driveclubthreads
Click to expand...

So true. Some of the concern trolling about the missing PS Plus edition was awesome...lol
 
B

Booshka

Member
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
A lot of lawyers are just trolls who elevated the practice into a career anyway.

See the entire patent industry.
Click to expand...

Ya this.

Not every concern, or argument needs to be fact checked and discussed for inaccuracies. Sometimes they are just people trolling, or arguing about the most mundane things possible for the sake of arguing.
 
B

Blackhead

Redarse
Mumei said:
I think he might be confusing accusations of tone policing with accusations of concern trolling. They're related in the presumption of insincerity, but aren't identical.
Click to expand...

Meta-discussion: Is the OP concern trolling for tone policing?

;P
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
I've never seen a poster being dismissed out of hand for concern trolling. The accusation is always the culmination of a lot of back and forth.
 
K

Kazerei

Banned
Dude Abides said:
You may have a point but being smug by proxy based on your professors expertise and saying stuff like "results, results, results" when you're just a student with no actual experience is off putting. I say this becaue your message is useful but I'm concerned that your tone detracts from it.
Click to expand...

Hehehehe
 
C

cubicle47b

Member
Tone is incredibly important to me. I won't dismiss what you say just because you're an asshole, but I will despise you even if I agree with you.
 
S

Salmonax

Member
It worries me that other threads on concern trolling demonstrate such a better understanding of what it is. I want this thread to flourish and not get locked right away!
 
K

Kinyou

Member
I thought concern trolling was when you bring up a controversial subject just to infuriate people, while you yourself actually don't care about it at all.
 
I

Ishida

Banned
Kinyou said:
I thought concern trolling was when you bring up a controversial subject just to infuriate people, while you yourself actually don't care about it at all.
Click to expand...

Or when you do care, but you are actually happy that the controversial subject happened, you just pretend to be concerned in order to make the issue seem bigger than it really is.
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
This is missing the point, I think. In "concern trolling", "trolling" is doing a lot of work. The purpose and effect of the in-some-sense-insincere concern matters. And obviously some people will use the term over-broadly, but it's describing a real and very annoying tendency.

A pretty big problem with discussions on the internet is that they're full of idiots who think they're geniuses. There are probably a lot of reasons for this. What's so bad about this is that people who think they're much smarter than the people they're arguing with don't really take the other side's arguments seriously. They've decided from the get-go that the point of the discussion is basically to improve the other side - the other side just needs to be educated or convinced or whatever, rather than engaged with as if they have something of value to say. People who think this way come into discussions and do what a lot of people would do in this situation. They don't really participate in the discussion as holders of a particular opinion, but instead try to help people along and nudge them towards what they see as better opinions and better ways of arguing. Often they even present themselves as basically agreeing with those they're trying to educate, perhaps because they feel like that's the only way they'll get any sort of hearing at all.

The problem is that, as stipulated, they're actually idiots. They're not in a position to manage the education of the other side. They raise stupid concerns, which almost nobody who actually believes in the other side would raise. Perhaps the concerns are obviously baseless, or perhaps they're actually something that's been discussed often before and so have been dealt with, or perhaps they're essentially concerns that doing anything significant to advance the movement would be inappropriate.

If a well-meaning idiot who actually believes in whatever-it-is has concerns like these, there's value in talking them down. But when it's an idiot who's doing this either just to troll or, more charitably, out of this misguided desire to improve others that I describe above, there's basically no value in engagement. When people are defending positions that they're not actually very invested in, which is what the concern troll is going to be doing, they're often more-or-less invulnerable to learning. Their arguments can be torn to pieces and they'll use exactly the same ones the next week to argue with different people. And even if the concern troll is convinced, nothing significant has been accomplished - the concern troll doesn't share the original position which they were concern trolling about.

So even if you want to say that actually it's often the people claiming that others are concern trolling who are the idiots, such that maybe half the time the concern troll has a point, discussions with concern trolls are still going to be about 50% less likely than sincere discussions to bring someone to a better-thought-out position. A norm of sincerity in internet arguments is a good way to raise the signal to noise ratio. Not because advocating a position that you don't actually hold or care much about is always a bad way to engage, but because you need to be capable enough to recognize when it's useful and appropriate, and relatively few people are that capable.
 
C

Cyd0nia

Banned
Kinyou said:
I thought concern trolling was when you bring up a controversial subject just to infuriate people, while you yourself actually don't care about it at all.
Click to expand...

sort of yeah.

It's feigning concern in something purely to attack something or troll a group of people.

If FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Denial) is using negative supposition to attack something and draw people to that cause, then concern trolling is using 'concerns'. Concerns that may correspond to actual realities (let's say concern about a policy, a price, an art style etc) - however trivial or not - and using that to attack something and draw people to the cause.


I think it can have results for sure, but I also think it taints debate, because you'll often get people feigning interest in something, and claiming to be a part of an interested audience or party, when actually they're not interested at all.

If we're talking the kind of thing that can occur on gaming forums, concern trolls have often decided the debate itself is the entertainment, rather than the game. Gotchaye might not agree with what I've said there, but I certainly agree with him that people use it as a way of 'nudging' people towards what they see as a more agreeable position or opinion ie. more like their own.


I would also like to add that 'concern trolling' type tactics are especially corrosive in politics.
 
L

Liu Kang Baking A Pie

Member
I relate concern trolling to people who pop in the vegetarian/vegan threads to say something shitty about the diets as if they care about vegetarians when all they want to do is make everyone else feel stupid or bad just because.
 
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