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"Concern trolling" is an almost entirely BS concept/dismissal

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D

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
Dude Abides said:
You may have a point but being smug by proxy based on your professors expertise and saying stuff like "results, results, results" when you're just a student with no actual experience is off putting. I say this becaue your message is useful but I'm concerned that your tone detracts from it.
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I see what you did there. Perfect example!
 
D

DoktorEvil

Banned
entrement said:
I wouldn't equate business and legal negotiations to internet banter.

The level of training and experience a lawyer has compared to some random teenager online is also stark, so I wouldn't expect much online.

Also anytime mentions concern trolling you can tell they don't trust their arguments so they use it as tactic to stifle discussion.
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This usually rings true more often than most people would care to admit.
 
Z

Zuhzuhzombie!!

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
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An example of this occurred in 2006 when Tad Furtado, a staffer for then-Congressman Charles Bass (R-NH), was caught posing as a "concerned" supporter of Bass' opponent, Democrat Paul Hodes, on several liberal New Hampshire blogs, using the pseudonyms "IndieNH" or "IndyNH". "IndyNH" expressed concern that Democrats might just be wasting their time or money on Hodes, because Bass was unbeatable.[39][40] Hodes eventually won the election.
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.
 
P

PogiJones

Banned
Dude Abides said:
You may have a point but being smug by proxy based on your professors expertise and saying stuff like "results, results, results" when you're just a student with no actual experience is off putting. I say this becaue your message is useful but I'm concerned that your tone detracts from it.
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Well done, and also, fair point.

Mumei said:
I think he might be confusing accusations of tone policing with accusations of concern trolling. They're related in the presumption of insincerity, but aren't identical.
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It seems so, yes. I've done a quick amendment to the OP, not going to rewrite it, though.
 
B

BrassDragon

Member
Days like these... said:
I'm worried about some of my fellow gaffers not being able to grasp the concept. Maybe we should avoid threads about concern trolling?
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It's obvious we're lacking a satisfactory definition of the term. We should sort this out before any discussion can proceed on the BS quotient of 'concern trolling'.
 
F

Foggy

Member
If you only knew the amount of skullduggery happening everyday on GAF. It's enough to make your blood run cold. Be on guard at all times, you don't know when they'll strike next...
 
U

Ultrabum

Member
I'm worried that meta threads like this one will distract from real discussion topics on GAF. Maybe some sort of serious action needs to be taken? Perhaps we should sit down and really question the merits meta topic threads. I'm sure the republicans will try and down play this as the ramblings of someone too sensitive, but I legitimately fear for GAFs continued future as a gaming website!
 
D

Devolution

Member
Yeah meta threads are better when the OP actually knows what he's talking about, especially if he's going to cite terms like "concern trolling."
 
P

PogiJones

Banned
Gotchaye said:
This is missing the point, I think. In "concern trolling", "trolling" is doing a lot of work. The purpose and effect of the in-some-sense-insincere concern matters. And obviously some people will use the term over-broadly, but it's describing a real and very annoying tendency.

A pretty big problem with discussions on the internet is that they're full of idiots who think they're geniuses. There are probably a lot of reasons for this. What's so bad about this is that people who think they're much smarter than the people they're arguing with don't really take the other side's arguments seriously. They've decided from the get-go that the point of the discussion is basically to improve the other side - the other side just needs to be educated or convinced or whatever, rather than engaged with as if they have something of value to say. People who think this way come into discussions and do what a lot of people would do in this situation. They don't really participate in the discussion as holders of a particular opinion, but instead try to help people along and nudge them towards what they see as better opinions and better ways of arguing. Often they even present themselves as basically agreeing with those they're trying to educate, perhaps because they feel like that's the only way they'll get any sort of hearing at all.

The problem is that, as stipulated, they're actually idiots. They're not in a position to manage the education of the other side. They raise stupid concerns, which almost nobody who actually believes in the other side would raise. Perhaps the concerns are obviously baseless, or perhaps they're actually something that's been discussed often before and so have been dealt with, or perhaps they're essentially concerns that doing anything significant to advance the movement would be inappropriate.

If a well-meaning idiot who actually believes in whatever-it-is has concerns like these, there's value in talking them down. But when it's an idiot who's doing this either just to troll or, more charitably, out of this misguided desire to improve others that I describe above, there's basically no value in engagement. When people are defending positions that they're not actually very invested in, which is what the concern troll is going to be doing, they're often more-or-less invulnerable to learning. Their arguments can be torn to pieces and they'll use exactly the same ones the next week to argue with different people. And even if the concern troll is convinced, nothing significant has been accomplished - the concern troll doesn't share the original position which they were concern trolling about.

So even if you want to say that actually it's often the people claiming that others are concern trolling who are the idiots, such that maybe half the time the concern troll has a point, discussions with concern trolls are still going to be about 50% less likely than sincere discussions to bring someone to a better-thought-out position. A norm of sincerity in internet arguments is a good way to raise the signal to noise ratio. Not because advocating a position that you don't actually hold or care much about is always a bad way to engage, but because you need to be capable enough to recognize when it's useful and appropriate, and relatively few people are that capable.
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I apparently misunderstood concern trolling to be equivalent to tone policing, so I've amended my OP now. So a lot of what you're saying doesn't really apply to what I'm talking about (my fault, sorry).

However, your post is still interesting, so let's discuss it.

My problem with dismissing people as concern trolls (or any ad hominem, for that matter) is that, as you said, a ton of idiots don't know they're idiots. That observation essentially means that your and my beliefs that we're not idiots don't actually help us know we're not idiots.

If no one knows they're an idiot, then any dismissal of someone else's argument because you believe them to be an idiot (and they think the same thing about you, so who's right?) is just furthering the environment you're talking about.

I'm an advocate of strictly merit-based discussion. Now, I'm by no means some pillar of objectivity--I also fall into the trap of dismissing people's points based on who they are. But my personal failings in that regard do not reflect the, eh, merits of merit-based discussion. Dismissals based on tone policing or concern trolling or any other personal trait is contrary to and diminishes merit-based discussion. So I'm advocating against those dismissals.
 
M

makingmusic476

Member
I thought concern trolling was when a troll attempts to hide their trolling of a product/subject by claiming to be genuinely concerned about its situation.

Take, for example, an Xbox fanboy that plays up some of the stuff that's been going on with Sony's first party studios. They might claim to be a huge PlayStation fanboy in order to make their points seem more credible than they really are.

It might look something like this:

"I'm a huge SCEWWS fan, and I've owned a ps4 since day one, but Amy Henning being forced out of ND, Stig's team getting let go, and Evolution's latest flop likely leading to layoffs have me concerned that Sony might have no worthwhile studios left by this time next year."

And then, of course, repeatedly posting about this in some general thread about ps4 games to derail it with FUD.

But others seem to be describing something different, and I'm having trouble nailing down exactly what that is.

Edit:

Zuhzuhzombie!! said:
.
Click to expand...
Oh, that's pretty much what I thought it was.
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
Dude Abides said:
You may have a point but being smug by proxy based on your professors expertise and saying stuff like "results, results, results" when you're just a student with no actual experience is off putting. I say this becaue your message is useful but I'm concerned that your tone detracts from it.
Click to expand...
Damn. How did you manage this?

But Pogi, I'm all for the interest based negotiation school versus the positional asshatery (sorry guys, it's true thoug)--but like others said, I don't think this really relates with concern trolling.
 
K

kick51

Banned
um, just stick to the topics you're learning and try not to think too hard about what the internet would think.

cause that's one bizarre diatribe/retraction, connecting shit that's barely related
 
M

Man-is-Obsolete

Member
Concern trolling is a real thing. It's feigning concern about a product/person/thing with the only interest in said subject being to move the conversation to that area of "concern". It's an attempt to derail a conversation that that person otherwise has no interest in at all.
 
I

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Tone policing is the most annoying. You know someone is tone policing when they have to start going on about how the person they are speaking with is coming off abrasive or hostile and shit.

Prime example is if you are debating in a thread about anything involving sexism, racism, etc if you get short patient with someone who's being rude, you're suddenly being told that you should always be the portrait of patience lest you upset onlookers that you may want to appeal to.

You don't get respect for being meek. You get respect by standing your ground, stating the facts, and providing reasonable answers to the questions asked.

If people find that hostile behavior, it speaks more about them than the other person.
 
D

deltatheta

Member
makingmusic476 said:
Oh, that's pretty much what I thought it was.
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Yeah, you're right. I have no idea how so many people got their definitions of what concern trolling is. Concern trolling is pretending to be in support of something and that you are just raising concerns when you're actually against the thing.
 
N

Neuromancer

Member
This reminds me of when I took a politics course in college and felt like Marxism was a pretty good idea for a couple hours, then it wore off.
 
P

PogiJones

Banned
Byakuya769 said:
Damn. How did you manage this?

But Pogi, I'm all for the interest based negotiation school versus the positional asshatery (sorry guys, it's true thoug)--but like others said, I don't think this really relates with concern trolling.
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Yeah, I've now struck every instance of concern trolling except the one in the title, which I can't.

The moral of the story is, even if you think you've picked up the meaning of an internet slang, always double-check with Urban Dictionary before making a thread about it.
 
D

Danj

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
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I would also like to know what tone policing is. I have this image in my head of squad cars prowling around karaoke joints listening for the bad singing. WATCH OUT YOU'VE BEEN HEARD BY THE TONE POLICE
 
I

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Man-is-Obsolete said:
Concern trolling is a real thing. It's feigning concern about a product/person/thing with the only interest in said subject being to move the conversation to that area of "concern". It's an attempt to derail a conversation that that person otherwise has no interest in at all.
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Accurate.

It is almost a strawman argument attempt. Concern trolls find a single detail that catches their attention (despite that little detail being irrelevant) and use it to derail conversation.

They deserve to be called out for it each time because it's annoying and has no merit for conversation.


Danj said:
I would also like to know what tone policing is. I have this image in my head of squad cars prowling around karaoke joints listening for the bad singing. WATCH OUT YOU'VE BEEN HEARD BY THE TONE POLICE
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I answered this a few posts above.

It's when people are so concerned that you seem hostile or upset to undermine your argument because they cannot give a rebuttal to it. Instead, they will attack your person to somehow "win" the debate.
 
P

PogiJones

Banned
Danj said:
I would also like to know what tone policing is. I have this image in my head of squad cars prowling around karaoke joints listening for the bad singing. WATCH OUT YOU'VE BEEN HEARD BY THE TONE POLICE
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Your image is completely accurate.
 
D

deltatheta

Member
PeakPointMatrix said:
Could someone post some realworld occurrences from GAF threads? I'm surprised it's so common place.
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Of concern trolling? You can't really prove it unless you go spelunking in someone's comment history. The defining factor is that you're pretending that you're in support of something while arguing against it.
 
D

Devolution

Member
deltatheta said:
Of concern trolling? You can't really prove it unless you go spelunking in someone's comment history. The defining factor is that you're pretending that you're in support of something while arguing against it.
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Easiest place to find it is in a thread about obese/overweight individuals where people pretend to give a shit about health but are really just using the thread as an excuse to shit on others, be judgmental and call them lazy.
 
I

Into

Member
PeakPointMatrix said:
Could someone post some realworld occurrences from GAF threads? I'm surprised it's so common place.
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"Oh wow, poor Nintendo, doing so badly, i hope that at least Miyamoto is put in a good home when Nintendo is eventually sold off for peanuts, i am very concerned =/"

Concerned trolling is trolling but masking it as you caring about something in order to trick the mods not to ban you. You can see it on gaming a lot. My example is just really extreme. I am using my phoney sympathy for Nintendo and Miyamoto to basically dance on their grave, but in a nice way so mods do not notice

Its why i dont agree with the notion that every post/argument should be judged alone, the poster/person making it has to be considered too, otherwise concern trolling is easy and can never go unpunished.
 
R

Ramblin

Banned
backslashbunny said:
If you're a dude, though. Chicks have to be nice or else we get called bitchy~ (oh, and I have sources for this if anyone requests).



Yep. This.

(disclaimer: I'm a person that really hates the HAES movement, and in some ways some parts of the FA movement, AND I reallyreallyreally hate fat logic.)

However, I also think the whole "it's about health" is really often concern trolling. No, you don't care about their health, but you do think they're fat and want to point it out.

The problem is that it's apparently not okay to actually say someone is overweight anymore, which is what really baffles me because if you're fat, you're fat. So what? It's a fact. (It's also a fact that barring maybe 5% of the population with actual problems, you're fat because you eat more calories than you use.)
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Bravo concern troll!
 
N

NoCryingUntilTheEnd

Banned
backslashbunny said:
The problem is that it's apparently not okay to actually say someone is overweight anymore, which is what really baffles me because if you're fat, you're fat. So what? It's a fact. (It's also a fact that barring maybe 5% of the population with actual problems, you're fat because you eat more calories than you use.)
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Maybe some people aren't okay with being called overweight. Overweight is a negative factor, that's a fact. However, these people might recognize it and accept it: They're fat. This may be because they don't want to work out, they don't want to change their eating habits, whatever, either way, they have a permanent negative stain and they're somewhat proud of that because it means it's a part of who they are. However, that doesn't mean they want others to bring it up. Nobody's going to bring up the fact that they're fat as a positive, so why bring it up? Why bring up something that they're aware of? It's just rude.

When I see a fat person, all I think about is how much that person can squat if they started working out. Don't even have to eat less. In fact, eat more and squat more. THAT'S fat-positive thinking.
 
N

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
So by concern trolling do you mean when people act like they're actually concerned over something they could give less of a shit about?
 
D

deltatheta

Member
Not Spaceghost said:
So by concern trolling do you mean when people act like they're actually concerned over something they could give less of a shit about?
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No, that's not what it is.

Here's a definition from Urban Dictionary that I think is pretty good.
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally.
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T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
OP doesn't know what concern trolling is and is assigning a definition that is incorrect.

Came here to post a brand new example from Gaming Side, but I see I've already been beaten.

Edit: And I see the OP has already admitted that, oops. Late to the game 2 pages in. Should have known.
 
old

old

Member
Tyreny said:
What the fuck is concern trolling
Click to expand...


My understanding of them, and I could be wrong, is as follows:

Tone policing - people have noticed that writing with a strong, assertive and confident voice is the best voice for winning over the readers and dismissing dissenters. When someone tone polices you they're really trying to neuter your persuasiveness by getting you to speak with a meaker and thus weaker voice. (To the OP, tone policing is necessary in business negotiations because each side needs the other side or the deal falls through. In those cases being rude has consequences. But, on the internet no one really needs the other side for anything. Being rude to a random Twitter person doesn't carry the same consequences and thus doesn't mandate the same tone policing. Being polite is the best chance to win over the dissenting party, but speaking strongly and aggressively provides the best chance to win over the wider audience.)

Concern trolling - a variation of a false flag operation. There is side X and their opponents on side Y. You are on side X. You go to side Y's topic (or thread, forum, subreddit, website) and create posts claiming you're on their side and that you agree with them..."but you have some concerns" and then detail your insecurities over those concerns in way designed to foster debate. These posts are designed to drag the community into infighting and turmoil as they spend their time and effort arguing with each other and justifying themselves to themselves. It not only distracts them spending their time and effort furthering their side, it also makes their side look weaker when their space is filled with people expressing doubt and concerns over their side.

Those are my understandings of them.
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
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