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[ReturnOfTheRAT]

Do people watch the credits when the games they play end? If you do, you'll how long those things have gotten in modern times. Think of the impact on the budget that each person listed makes. Look at the development time, game prices, marketing, sales numbers, stock on shelves, lack of sales, deep discounts weeks and months later, and it shouldn't be surprising.

 

[Sloane_Ranger]

Really enjoyed the series. I wish all the best in luck finding new positions that make them all very happy.

 

[Bossofman]

Yeah, its still kind of a sobering picture on the state of "AAA" game development.

It just seems like a bit of a trap for some developers who are given a decent amount of freedom in making the game they want to make but with all of that publisher allocated time and resources, the financial expectations go through the roof.

So you end up with something like BioShock Infinite where it seemingly sold pretty good but apparently not nearly well enough relative to how much time and resources went into it. Maybe that's the fault of somebody like Ken Levine or the developers making the big calls of the game. But it seems kind of scary for any big developer trying to take their time on a big game, since it seems like if you spend more than a couple years on a given "AAA" game and it doesn't put out GTA, Call of Duty or Skyrim numbers, you're liable to get shuttered.

They created a 'Floating' world' where the 'floating' never really played into the gameplay, I guess you could say the same for Rapture, but it seemed they where trying to incorporate it, but it never worked and they pretty much scrapped it.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I don't think it's that mysterious really.

BioShock Infinite took 5.5 years to develop and had high senior staff churn. The game didn't sell enough copies relative to its cost. There wasn't a lot of reason to believe the next one would get done much faster or be notably more profitable. As such, they canned the studio as they try to make the publisher as a whole profitable.

The only thing that makes this seem abnormal at first glance is that they were an incredibly high rated studio that sold millions of copies, but that doesn't change the core of the business equation.

Correct , it's crazy that they got 5.5 years in the first place in this day and age .

I would point out that Bioshock Infinite is not the only project at Take 2 seems with a prolonged development time. GTAV took nearly 5 years, and RDR took even longer than that. This approach works fine if the game sells 20M+ like GTA, but not so great if the game sells "only" 5M like Bioshock.

True but still i really wonder why it takes so long either way seem like bad way to run things .

 

[Hari Seldon]

Maybe KL is looking at all of those isometric RPG kickstarters with 4-5 million in preorders and saying "I have this freedom force engine just sitting right here!"

 

[daman824]

They are not suited for the task. i don't say it for Aliens. I like Gearbox, they do some good stuff, but they can't make Bioshock work,

I bet they could. The groundwork is already there. But 2k probably has them working on other stuff atm.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

Yeah, I was just going off what seems to be a reasonably tight relationship with 2K based on Borderlands. I think 2K's main internal studios are Firaxis and Rockstar these days.

As an aside, shots fired by JP LeBreton, former Bioshock dev.

Wow. I really want the story behind how this all went down. Did he leave before Infinite shipped?

 

[sflufan]

Irrational is wholly owned by Take 2 - wouldn't hit have been their final decision on what happens with the rest of the studio? They must have at least endorsed his decision.

Good luck to everybody impacted by this.

I'm pretty sure you have it backwards: Take 2 made a decision that Ken had to abide by.

 

[Brazil]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

 

[Eusis]

Right, the Op-Ed pieces we get going "Just make games with lower budgets!" are all great on paper or whatever, but publishers didn't stop making lower budget games until they all started turning unprofitable and they were forced to consolidate to solely the biggest hits.

It makes this a frustrating time for gaming really. Mainstream's focused on only a small number of megahits, many of the more serious players will turn their nose up at anything that isn't AAA, and a lot of people in general are feeding into the freemium abominations. The most damning part though is probably the economy, more loose money around in general and people will be more eager to try other stuff on a lark.

EDIT: With that said the silver lining is the current rise of indies.

 

[Stranya]

David Cage is awful, so I would hope not. And I don't see how that would fit replayable narrative.

Well, Cage's games are narrative-focused, with multiple consequences/endings (hence the replayable bit).

 

[IAmRandom31]

Well, I'm pretty sure it didn't go down like:

Ken: "I'm going to lay off 235+ people and make digital games!"
Take-Two: "I'm not sure about that. We want this studio to continue and we sign all your pay checks. You should just make a side studio instead."
Ken: "Fuck you, I'm doing it!"

I lol'ed

This is making me wonder if the big budget AAA titles that take 4-5 years is the future of the industry. Or maybe it will be like the movie industry where only a select few massive studios can handle that type of production.

But, at 30,000,000 per game average, there is still a ton of room for profits. Maybe 200,000,000 for a single project is a bit much. That is too much even for the movie industry.

Cost control during development may need to get more aggressive perhaps. Even for AAA projects.

 

[Theecliff]

I'm yet to play any of the Bioshock games (1 and Infinite are sitting on my PS3 hard drive waiting to be played after I clear more of my backlog) but this is still pretty upsetting to hear about knowing how well received the games were. Hoping all the best for those affected and out of a job.

 

[H3xum]

What. Didn't expect this. What a major let down. These guys reliably brought a lot of stuff to the table.

Ah well, they're still great minds so they'll still pump out quality content and I guess this saves me from being hyped for the next 4 years for a new Bioshock game.

 

[soultron]

(2) I wonder what he has in mind by "replayable narrative". Maybe something David Cage-esque.

I don't think so, no. I think he wants something that has more systemic gameplay and/or is open world.

 

[foxtrot3d]

As an aside, shots fired by JP LeBreton, former Bioshock dev.

Would love to hear his side of the story but comments like these coming from a self-described "hipster" doesn't help his credibility. Still I really wanna know why he left Irrational.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Oh boy

[IG]http://i.imgur.com/PIj9wPc.jpg[/IMG]

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

I thought that was going to be a tweet by some random indie dev...but it's actually someone from Double Fine.

 

[Joseph Merrick]

system shock 2 and swat4 were really great games. freedom forces were ok.

the bioshock bloated nonsense games weren't for me, I discovered. can't say I'm left feeling very interested in the next game ken levine will head up. but, that's a pointless comment.

really, I just came here to say swat 4 was fucking fantastic.

I thought that was going to be a tweet by some random indie dev...but it's actually someone from Double Fine.

he was level designer on both bioshock 1 and 2

 

[LuchaShaq]

Not surprising you can only afford 5 year Dev cycles on the biggest of hits.

Bummer for the hardworking people who don't have a well known name to get by on.

 

[bishopcruz]

Yeah, I was just going off what seems to be a reasonably tight relationship with 2K based on Borderlands. I think 2K's main internal studios are Firaxis and Rockstar these days.

As an aside, shots fired by JP LeBreton, former Bioshock dev.

Toxic Egomaniac? Damn, that's harsh. But clearly Levine was unable to keep the budget in check, and indeed might have been the reason it grew so much in the first place.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I don't know anyone working at Irrational but there was always questions why it was in development for so long (was it 5 years in production?). That and losing more senior people over the development seemed odd.

 

[Nirolak]

It makes this a frustrating time for gaming really. Mainstream's focused on only a small number of megahits, many of the more serious players will turn their nose up at anything that isn't AAA, and a lot of people in general are feeding into the freemium abominations. The most damning part though is probably the economy, more loose money around in general and people will be more eager to try other stuff on a lark.

I'd like to point that we're 1.5 months into 2014 and so far have had a grand total of two AAA games announced, unless we want to be really generous and count Transformers as a third.

 

[Soonri]

Man, this sucks. I just finished my second run of Infinite and beat Bioshock 1 for the first time.
Hope everyone can land on their feet and Ken Levine can continue to make great games.

 

[Kimawolf]

News like this makes me begin to think that the people saying this will be the final console generation may have a point.

Nah everything is fine. Its just an isolated incident.

Spoiler

its not. Its part of a trend I and others predicted a year ago.

 

[Qassim]

News like this makes me begin to think that the people saying this will be the final console generation may have a point.

Closed platforms like the consoles need to bring down the barrier to getting games on their systems as an absolute priority for the health of the industry. We may see the next-gen consoles selling quicker than ever and games like GTAV breaking records, but the market is getting rather narrow - there's fewer and fewer games that have stuck around because this AAA model is unsustainable.

We need to start seeing games like Rust to happen first on consoles like the PC. That isn't a small downloadable title, but it's inexpensive, big in concept and successful (pre-full release).

The indie scene on the consoles are largely driven by two things:

1. PC games ported to consoles
2. Indie developers having their games funded and supported by Microsoft or Sony - and there are only a select few of them.

Partnering up with select developers is not the solution. Letting anyone submit a game to sell on your platform is. Consoles need to open up - I think that's the biggest threat to the console model at the moment.

 

[Ashes]

I don't think it's that mysterious really.

BioShock Infinite took 5.5 years to develop and had high senior staff churn. The game didn't sell enough copies relative to its cost. There wasn't a lot of reason to believe the next one would get done much faster or be notably more profitable. As such, they canned the studio as they try to make the publisher as a whole profitable.

The only thing that makes this seem abnormal at first glance is that they were an incredibly high rated studio that sold millions of copies, but that doesn't change the core of the business equation.

Seems like a reasonable account of how it went down. 5 years is a long time. But if it was a purely financial motive, they ought to have offered the studio to a competitor who thinks they can manage them better. They were a genuine 90+ metacritic team - a holy grail dev. Seems kind of redundant to just lay off a bunch of people. Irrational Games was a quality brand in my opinion.

 

[noobasuar]

Sad for all those that lost thier jobs but I'm happy Ken is hopefully doing something like his older games, bioshock infinite was just way to AAA.

Bad news for people looking for AAA games though, soon it's going to be a wasteland.

 

[Spehornoob]

Sad story. I'm of the opinion that BioShock Infinite would have been better with zero or much reduced combat, but it was a quality game. That AAA development model hurts.

The problem isn't simply with Publishers demanding AAA games though. If we want smaller scale games and dev times, we have to be willing to buy those smaller scale games. We can't always keep pushing for more and more and more production values, and refusing to buy anything that doesn't live up to them.

Has there been any word on how Ubisoft's smaller scale games, like Blood Dragon and Call of Juarez: Gunslinger, did?

 

[Sectorseven]

Well, Cage's games are narrative-focused, with multiple consequences/endings (hence the replayable bit).

With so many other games to pick from and our increasingly busy lives, how many people actually go back and replay a game for alternate endings?

 

[Instro]

Sounds more like KL is saving his ass along with some close staffers as 2k is shutting the studio down.

 

[rschauby]

Can 2k even afford to let their top developers go under like this?

 

[kuYuri]

I'd like to point that we're 1.5 months into 2014 and so far have had a grand total of two AAA games announced, unless we want to be really generous and count Transformers as a third.

Just as a reminder, which two AAA games are those?

 

[Bossofman]

I think peoples Backlogs, and just the HUGE amount of slightly old but excellent content is a BIG part of the problem. I find it hard to get stocked for more then 1 or 2 games a year, even games i definitely want to play, I figure wait and get it for 10-20 dollars once my massive backlog lets up a bit.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

God knows why people take crap like this to twitter, where the bridges burned are unspecified and the brevity makes people scratch their heads as they try to figure out what you're talking about. Incoherency helps nobody and pisses off a lot of people.

 

[jett]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

I said goddamn. This guy worked on Bioshock, it seems.

 

[Nirolak]

Seems like a reasonable account of how it went down. 5 years is a long time. But if it was a purely financial motive, they ought to have offered the studio to a competitor who thinks they can manage them better. They were a genuine 90+ metacritic team - a holy grail dev. Seems kind of redundant to just lay off a bunch of people. Irrational Games was a quality brand in my opinion.

Well, it's not in their favor to hand their competitors a team to make a game they have to compete against.

This is why most publishers go for a straight shutdown.

 

[Eusis]

I'd like to point that we're 1.5 months into 2014 and so far have had a grand total of two AAA games announced, unless we want to be really generous and count Transformers as a third.

I thought we heard more a bit further in usually. Still, it's part of why indie support seems vital to me now, if AAA really does crater than a console lacking in indies will be practically useless. Not unless mid tier development actually does come back to life anyway but indies seemingly filled that void.

 

[Doran902]

This really stinks and I feel bad for all the dev's that got let go. From personal experience, losing your job sucks, especially somewhere that you work a lot of overtime and become friends with your co workers. Wish them all the best and hope they find great new jobs.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Seems really shitty to lay off almost an entire studio just because you, personally, want to do something smaller scale. That's assuming the reasoning explained in the statement is true.

 

[rashbeep]

Irrational was a talented studio, hope those guys can find a good home somewhere.

 

[gogosox8]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

SHOTS FIRED

 

[Steez]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

So wait... is this guy implying that Levine fired everybody just for the hell of it? lol

Dude sounds a bit salty to be honest.

 

[Mooreberg]

Wow, Twitter is a migraine inducing way to follow a conversation. Thank you for existing, NeoGAF.

 

[Lime]

Although I don't think Irrational has made anything noteworthy in a classical sense since System Shock 2 (maybe Swat 4 if we're being gratuitous), I hope everyone involved land safely on their feet.

 

[LilWayneSuckz]

No! This news makes me so sad

 

[jacksepticeye]

Oh boy

https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/435838769510350848

The plot thickens.

Is Ken a nightmare to work with then I wonder?

 

[element]

Sad since I still have a lot of friends there Those that were laid off I hope everyone lands on their feet.

 

[Nirolak]

Just as a reminder, which two AAA games are those?

Alien: Isolation (I'm being generous with AAA here, though I kind of expect it to tank relative to budget anyway) and Evolve (I'm also being generous with AAA here by modern standards, it was even going to be f2p at one point).

 

[foxtrot3d]

God knows why people take crap like this to twitter, where the bridges burned are unspecified and the brevity makes people scratch their heads as they try to figure out what you're talking about. Incoherency helps nobody and pisses off a lot of people.

Yup, if you're gonna call somebody out that at least have the courtesy to explain the entire situation. Typing out small insults without any context helps no one.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

I said goddamn. This guy worked on Bioshock, it seems.

He worked on Bioshock 1 and 2.

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