Support NeoGAF

[Oriel]

Russia Today is a fucking joke. Instead of attempting to maintain a veneer of impartiality it has decided to just label millions of protesters as "far right fascists".

Anyway, more images from the new Balkans....

There is talk amongst some EU officials of seeking UN authorisation for a possible peacekeeping mission be sent to Ukraine, though this would no doubt be vetoed by the Kremlin.

And finally, Euronews reports effective government control of the notorious Berkut units may have been lost as they use live rounds on protesters, despite the Ukrainian government claiming no live ammo is being used by its forces.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCzIIFAsGk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6IbEIBhb8o

 

[Oriel]

Is there a quote on this?

Sure.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

http:///www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia

 

[Jackpot]

I think the security forces believe that's a real gun.

Thanks for another drive-by post excusing gunning down protesters.

 

[Gothos]

It's interesting that this thing is happening only in Kiev. Hopefuly it won't spread to other cites becuase then it could quickly escalte into a true civil war. They should really resolve this ASAP because I'm affraird it can end in a true massacre.

 

[Oriel]

A commentator from The Economist on BBC News now suggesting there is a real possibility of Ukraine splitting into two states, with Putin wanting the country back into Russian as he feels Ukraine should never be an independent country. This demonstrates the sort of mentality the west is dealing with regarding Russia and Putin.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

It's interesting that this thing is happening only in Kiev.

I got some news for you.

 

[Gothos]

I got some news for you.

It's happening on that scale in other cities, too? Where?

 

[mokeyjoe]

If tanks was the answer we would've conquered the Taliban and the other Istlamic rebels long ago.

Tanks aren't the answer to anything, it's the beginning of a lengthy, bloody civil war which serves no one. That's why you don't want to provoke escalating armed conflict. Look at Syria, why would anyone want that?

 

[Oriel]

It's interesting that this thing is happening only in Kiev. Hopefuly it won't spread to other cites becuase then it could quickly escalte into a true civil war. They should really resolve this ASAP because I'm affraird it can end in a true massacre.

The western city and region of Lviv has declared independence from Yanukovych and his government, with police stations and local government buildings, including the governors residence taken over by pro Western protesters.

But before people lose faith in humanity sometimes popular uprisings CAN work out for the better, today Libyan citizens are going to the polls in the first free and fair elections for decades.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

It's happening on that scale in other cities, too? Where?

Not on this scale perhaps but there's revolts and unrest in several cities in the west.

 

[Oriel]

Euronews reporting "more than 50 killed in Kiev" with the hotel used by most international news outlets being converted into a makeshift hospital. Fucking hell! This seems to be getting worse by the hour, and it's clear Putin is the one responsible.

 

[dripdripsplash]

The point is, if the population was armed it wouldn't even have come to this. Actual resolution would be much more likely to happen. The police nor the army would no no interest in facing an armed population, and the elite would be forced to compromise as it should be.

The state is servants of the people, not the other way around.

Your crazy aren't you ?

No offence but geez, look at what happened with Syria when guns was introduced, for better or worse.

It's a complete myth that guns will keep the forces at bay, they'll just fight each other with the guns.

 

[NorthWind]

Tanks aren't the answer to anything, it's the beginning of a lengthy, bloody civil war which serves no one. That's why you don't want to provoke escalating armed conflict. Look at Syria, why would anyone want that?

If a civil war is what it takes so be it. There's nothing that should justify the state being able to gun down their citizens unoposed.
Syria in particular is also difficult to compare because of all the parties involved, a lot of the violent insurgents are not even from Syria to begin with.

 

[dapperbandit]

There's a difference to having access to arms through civil wars and having the population armed in the first place. Look at the Arab spring, a lot of these people were not armed for the longest time until some of the more extremist groups took part.

You can't control the entire country with a few tanks. You need people on the ground, and nobody is going to stand around waiting for the fury of the public.
If tanks was the answer we would've conquered the Taliban and the other Islamic rebels long ago.

I don't know man, tanks have effectively ended movements before...

 

[Oriel]

Tanks aren't the answer to anything, it's the beginning of a lengthy, bloody civil war which serves no one. That's why you don't want to provoke escalating armed conflict. Look at Syria, why would anyone want that?

Sometimes the only way to achieve freedom is through the force of arms. I don't endorse unjustified violence but I do endorse one's right to defend themselves, and if that means the opposition using firearms against Berkut forces then so be it.

 

[dripdripsplash]

All of you guys calling for a civil war should be very wary of your words.

I have family scattered around the world for the call of freedom with the use of arms. Hopeful at first, but regretful at the loss of a normal life and family members later on. Hopefully freedom will come but the road will be filled with blood and sorrow.

Be very wary on what you wish for other people.

OT though: The footage is fucking crazy, reminds me of Syria in the early days of the revolution to be honest. Crazy.

 

[NorthWind]

All of you guys calling for a civil war should be very wary of your words.

I have family scattered around the world for the call of freedom with the use of arms. Hopeful at first, but regretful at the loss of a normal life and family members later on. Hopefully freedom will come but the road will be filled with blood and sorrow.

Be very wary on what you wish for other people.

OT though: The footage is fucking crazy, reminds me of Syria in the early days of the revolution to be honest. Crazy.

I can't speak for other people obviously, but I'd rather be gunned down in armed conflict than being gunned down as nothing but an insect with no odds of fighting back.

It's not really all that original, but it still holds true in my heart. Rather die on your feet than live on your knees.

 

[Kinan]

Animals, fucking animals:

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

 

[dapperbandit]

I can't speak for other people obviously, but I'd rather be gunned down in armed conflict than being gunned down as nothing but an insect with no odds of fighting back.

It's not really all that original, but it still holds true in my heart. Rather die on your feet and live on your knees.

It sounds like you're quoting deleted scenes from V for Vendetta.

Easy to do as an armchair revolutionary.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I can't speak for other people obviously, but I'd rather be gunned down in armed conflict than being gunned down as nothing but an insect with no odds of fighting back.

It's not really all that original, but it still holds true in my heart. Rather die on your feet and live on your knees.

I know how you feel and I had exactly the same mindset.

But we say these things sitting comfortably behind our computers. Son you don't know how getting family members kidnapped or killed is.

Negotiation should be the way, better than the destruction of a great nation and the death of thousands of more people.

EDIT: Noticed your avy and are you danish by any chance ?

 

[Simplet]

I can't speak for other people obviously, but I'd rather be gunned down in armed conflict than being gunned down as nothing but an insect with no odds of fighting back.

It's not really all that original, but it still holds true in my heart. Rather die on your feet and live on your knees.

They already are dying on their feet, and probably winning. What you want is them dying under russian tanks.

 

[NorthWind]

It sounds like you're quoting deleted scenes from V for Vendetta.

Easy to do as an armchair revolutionary.

I'm an Afghan veteran, seen combat and know what war is about. Thank you.

I know how you feel and I had exactly the same mindset.

But we say these things sitting comfortably behind our computers. Son you don't know how getting family members kidnapped or killed is.

Negotiation should be the way, better than the destruction of a great nation and the death of thousands of more people.

EDIT: Noticed your avy and are you danish by any chance ?

Yes I'm Danish.

They already are dying on their feet, and probably winning. What you want is them dying under russian tanks.

Absolutely, and they have my deepest respect, but it's only 1 part of the issue. It's not worth dying if you don't put up a fight. Going with sheet metal against bullets is not putting up a fight worth dying for.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Someone should probably change the thread title.

 

[Kinan]

Protestors are firing on RTV journalists fantasists.

According to whom, RTV? Protesters got more than enough real targets and almost no weapons, unless you count hobby air rifles, pistols and bows to that.

But yea, Russian propaganda machine is trying very, very hard atm. It is getting harder for them every minute...

 

[DigiMish]

I'm reading about this more - there were peace talks and both sides sort of agreed on some things, but there's an extreme group - the "right sector" group that weren't happy with the talks and decided to call it off, leading to the confrontations again.

 

[mokeyjoe]

Sometimes the only way to achieve freedom is through the force of arms. I don't endorse unjustified violence but I do endorse one's right to defend themselves, and if that means the opposition using firearms against Berkut forces then so be it.

I understand the sentiment, I just believe it's dangerously counter-productive. Violent revolutions rarely end well, and pretty much never work without military support, domestic or foreign. Shooting at soldiers isn't defence, it's suicide.

 

[alstein]

It sounds like you're quoting deleted scenes from V for Vendetta.

Easy to do as an armchair revolutionary.

It's the way I feel as well. I won't say I'm a veteran because I never got to go overseas, but I did serve and tried to volunteer at one point.

 

[Kinan]

I'm reading about this more - there were peace talks and both sides sort of agreed on some things, but there's an extreme group - the "right sector" group that weren't happy with the talks and decided to call it off, leading to the confrontations again.

Read other sources.

 

[PixelPeZ]

Fuck, this video is pretty horrid. Shooting AK-47 into a crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

 

[dripdripsplash]

I'm an Afghan veteran, seen combat and know what war is about. Thank you.



Yes I'm Danish.



Absolutely, and they have my deepest respect, but it's only 1 part of the issue. It's not worth dying if you don't put up a fight. Going with sheet metal against bullets is not putting up a fight worth dying for.

A vet in a war in a far off country. Your family members have never been in the line of fire, safely sitting at home in Denmark. You still don't know what a civil war entails. Arm chair revolutionaire is what you are.

EDIT: Så er vi to danskere btw.

 

[Darklord]

Fuck, this video is pretty horrid. Shooting AK-47 into a crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

Something must be done. This is fucked. A government can't just start murdering its people with no action taken against them.

 

[DigiMish]

Read other sources.

CNN, which is a neutral source states that "It's unclear what prompted the gunfire. But CNN crews at the scene reported that as security forces were moving away from the area, a group of protesters pursued them, throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/europe/ukraine-protests/index.html?iref=allsearch

 

[CHEEZMO™]

More footage from this morning when the protestors advanced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBNwwKGlibA

 

[Oriel]

Mayor of Kiev has resigned in protest at actions of government, while police using armour piercing rounds against protestors!

 

[dripdripsplash]

More footage from this morning when the protestors advanced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBNwwKGlibA

Who is that guy speaking on the speaker ? Does all the footage come from one general location because I seem to hear him on all the videos.

 

[Simplet]

Absolutely, and they have my deepest respect, but it's only 1 part of the issue. It's not worth dying if you don't put up a fight. Going with sheet metal against bullets is not putting up a fight worth dying for.

It depends if you want to win the streets or the actual war. The protesters have more legitimacy than the actual government at the moment, as evidenced by the resignations in Yanoukovitch's party (Kiev mayor, MPs...) and despite some protesters gunning down policemen.

This would change very quickly if they started an actual civil war.

 

[NorthWind]

A vet in a war in a far off country. Your family members have never been in the line of fire, safely sitting at home in Denmark. You still don't know what a civil war entails. Arm chair revolutionaire is what you are.

I know the grave consequences of civil war, we're all spectators to the horrors of Syria. I just don't accept the notion that we must have peace at any cost. The cost of liberty and the strength of the public is non negotiable.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Who is that guy speaking on the speaker ? Does all the footage come from one general location because I seem to hear him on all the videos.

Just one of the speakers on the main stage in the Maidan.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Mayor of Kiev has resigned in protest at actions of government, while police using armour piercing rounds against protestors!

I just want to point out that "AP rounds" usually just means FMJ, standard military sort of kit. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the kind of thing that the police in this part of the world has standard for their rifles. Better at penetrating armor, less effective at causing large wounds compared to JPH (still probably kill you dead if you're hit).

 

[dapperbandit]

It's the way I feel as well. I won't say I'm a veteran because I never got to go overseas, but I did serve and tried to volunteer at one point.

I'm an Afghan veteran, seen combat and know what war is about. Thank you.

That came out more condescending than I intended.

But really, while that sentiment is admirable, I think it often does more harm than good. Right now people are getting shot and killed. Taking up arms gives the better armed and equipped government a mandate to kill you and those around you. Achieving victory is much harder in an armed struggle too; some might disagree but I thought the negotiations were slowly getting there.

 

[SuperNova1890]

You could say the country is having a meltdown... Wouldn't be the first time!! haha

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I just want to point out that "AP rounds" usually just means FMJ, standard military sort of kit. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the kind of thing that the police in this part of the world has standard for their rifles. Better at penetrating armor, less effective at causing large wounds compared to JPH (still probably kill you dead if you're hit).

Might be talking about the shotgun slugs being pulled out of people that are indeed armour-piercing and are used to stop vehicles. They were even shooting them at people a few weeks ago back outside the stadium barricade.

 

[maquiladora]

Elmar Brok MEP (EPP, Germany), the Chairman of the European Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee, is currently in Kiev.

He said, "I can confirm that snipers have started shooting at Maidan demonstrators, disrespecting the ceasefire agreement of last night. Given the numerous casualties they appear to be using live ammunition".

http://www.neurope.eu/article/ukraine-opens-fire-euromaidan-demonstrators

 

[Oriel]

More footage from this morning when the protestors advanced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBNwwKGlibA

Last night the police tries to capture Independence Square and by this morning the police lines had not only been pushed back but protesters had captured MORE territory. It may be why Yanukovych is considering bringing into the military as the police have effectively lost control of much of central Kiev. If that happens then the body count could enter the hundreds if not thousands. We're looking at Europe's Tiannimen in the making.

 

[LanceVance]

This is what happens when you have the civilian population disarmed.

How different these riots would've been if the civilians had a fighting chance.
Goes for all of these recent conflicts really.

No, this is what happens when you have a power hungry mad man in charge who refuses to relinquish power. The protesters having guns would not solve anything, it would only lead to more bloodshed and the Russian army rolling in.

Revolutions can happen without the revolutionaries being armed.
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceausescu#Revolution

 

[Oriel]

I just want to point out that "AP rounds" usually just means FMJ, standard military sort of kit. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the kind of thing that the police in this part of the world has standard for their rifles. Better at penetrating armor, less effective at causing large wounds compared to JPH (still probably kill you dead if you're hit).

Thanks for the clarification. Still seems rather overkill, if you pardon such an expression.

 

[alstein]

Ultimately it would depend on the army, if the army supports the people, the government is finished. Putin wouldn't invade the Ukraine and risk WWIII if he knew the other side wouldn't be welcoming.

If the army splits, civil war happens.

Not all revolutionaries are good- look at Thailand currently, or the CSA historically.

 

[Oriel]

You could say the country is having a meltdown... Wouldn't be the first time!! haha

Why is that a laughing matter?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Why is that a laughing matter?

Cause Tschernobyl was so funny.