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#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco

shandy706

Member
Again. You seemingly don't understand. We simply wanted what they showed us all the time prior to release.

We were promised this:
iAcNAxIIIs2ZF.gif


What we got is this:
ibsVq2ZYL0M5Tz.gif


And you and other apologists tell us we should accept this crap.

Top one is Xbox One....those crushed blacks. :p


Massive downgrade though.
 
I believe he perfectly understands, and just doesn't give a shit. Because FromSoft.

Nothing tastes better than sucking corporation dick.

It's sad that people keep defending this no matter what.
I'm a huge fan of the Souls series myself but my blind fanboyism stops right here. What's happening now is unacceptable.

How late were they showing that dragon footage and other footage from the original reveal video? I really didn't follow much of the media in the lead up to the game.

They showed us builds with all the intact lighting right before release. They're still advertising it with pre-release builds. We have the E3 trailer playing on the Steam store page.
 
Just from watching youtube videos.

A couple of the walkthroughs I was watching, the frame rate would drop whenever the player would walk into a room with a dynamic light source.

From watching (probably) footage from the same time, I would say that there's no appreciable difference in the framerates between them and the retail, while the retail has greatly reduced dynamic lighting. In fact in some areas without any dynamic lighting I would probably still call the framerate trash ass garbage, so I still don't really see how removing the dynamic lighting has helped at all in achieving an acceptable framerate. If anything, it seems like someone thought it would help to simply turn off the lighting outputs, but somewhere the game is still doing the calculations necessary and just not displaying the results.
 
The discrepancy is jarring but I went into the ps3 version expecting a less graphically intense game.

Just the nature of playing on the old platform and thankfully it plays and looka good enough for me to enjoy my time with it.

I say you guys should be more upset it the PC version looks like crap
 

atr0cious

Member
Its posts like this that leave me smugly vindicated for thinking this outrage is unbecoming and stupid.

Please explain. Some people don't want just more of the same, and DS2 with added mechanics other than fighting was interesting:

1) Gameplay has been affected by these cuts. Uselessness of the torches and the removed spell charging make for an objectively worse game.
2) Emphasis on the torch mechanic was an advertised feature and one I was excited about because it could have made for a whole different kind of game. Yes I was looking forward to that.
3) Game was advertised with the old lightning up to close to the release. This is blatant false advertising.
4) ^ Game is still being advertised with the old footage.

Them taking it out, without telling anyone, and still selling the game using the old info, is why this started. But please continue to feel superior and allow people to lie to you for the sake of a game.
 

Violater

Member
Visually and gameplaywise this would have been the perfect swan song for the last gen consoles much like GOW2 was on the PS2.
 
How late were they showing that dragon footage and other footage from the original reveal video? I really didn't follow much of the media in the lead up to the game.
We were being shown footage of that build up until mere weeks ago.

Hell, the gameplay video on the Steam store right now is from that version.
 

MormaPope

Banned
I absolutely love the defense force for this shit. You should've known they were being disingenuous, everyone does this stuff! Its still Dark Souls in the end, why are you whining, play the game and stop bitching. Wanting publishers or developers to be more honest with whats being shown is embarrassing.

Seeing those comments is depressing to say the least. Its not about what Dark Souls 2 isn't, its about publishers and developers being genuine with their fan base at all times. The fact that honesty and discretion is being viewed as some sort of untangiable reality is mind blowing.
 

Edzi

Member
People keep saying this is about principle, but then we have tons of you claiming that as long as the PC version looks better you'll be happy. That makes it seem like most of the people who are complaining are just upset that they didn't get the shiniest product.
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
It's sad that people keep defending this no matter what.
I'm a huge fan of the Souls series myself but my blind fanboyism stops right here. What's happening now is unacceptable.

This. Liking a game is one thing but defending shady practices and deceptive just because it's from your favorite series/developer is just sad. gamers should not really let these sort of this pass.

and it's not only the gamers, the "journalists" are doing this as well by ignoring it. if this downgrade was from Ubi, EA or Gearbox we'll see sites arm in arms on this story...but because they like the game now we just got twitter twitter campaign.
 

Sullichin

Member
Still think the game looks better than DS1 on consoles, but I laughed when I got to the room with the huge dragon skeleton.
 

atr0cious

Member
People keep saying this is about principle, but then we have tons of you claiming that as long as the PC version looks better you'll be happy. That makes it seem like most of the people who are complaining are just upset that they didn't get the shiniest product.

Only some PC people are saying that. I want the PC version, but I'm not buying it. Period. I will not let a company make money dishonestly off of me.


Do people not realize how important, no matter how small this thread is, that this issue is? There are developers reading this, and half the responses in here are telling them they can lie to us about their product, up until and after release, and it's up to us to figure out what's wrong with it. Please don't let this stand. Please fight for your rights as a consumer. No one should be allowed to show things they aren't selling, regardless of what it is.
 
People keep saying this is about principle, but then we have tons of you claiming that as long as the PC version looks better you'll be happy. That makes it seem like most of the people who are complaining are just upset that they didn't get the shiniest product.
It'll still be a shitty situation and they'll still have explaining to do, but knowing they actually made that game makes the downgrade understandable.
 
This. Liking a game is one thing but defending shady practices and deceptive just because it's from your favorite series/developer is just sad. gamers should not really let these sort of this pass.

and it's not only the gamers, the "journalists" are doing this as well by ignoring it. if this downgrade was from Ubi, EA or Gearbox we'll see sites arm in arms on this story...but because they like the game now we just got twitter twitter campaign.

This happens though.

I imagine the backlash from the other examples of this would have been less had the games behind the poor graphics had been genuinely enjoyable to play

Colonial Marines fails on both levels
 

Mondy

Banned
You guys saw plenty of evidence this game wasn't going to look good in the leadup to launch and you didn't think for one second that it might be truly indicative of the final product?
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Please explain. Some people don't want just more of the same, and DS2 with added mechanics other than fighting was interesting:

Them taking it out, without telling anyone, and still selling the game using the old info, is why this started. But please continue to feel superior and allow people to lie to you for the sake of a game.

Who are you beefing with? Certainly not me. Read the post I quoted.. it goes straight from removed to feature to repackage of the first game. Thats a statement mired in viscous unreason if you ask me. Which you are.
 
but then we have tons of you claiming that as long as the PC version looks better you'll be happy.

You mean everyone willing to leave the console gamers out in the cold? I plan on buying this on pc (though have played a good 25 hours on a friend's ps3) and I still don't think it's right. It still won't be right if the PC version looks like the previous advertisements and beta. Not everyone can afford a gaming rig as well as a console, and saying that it's fine to lie to console gamers as long as you get yours is wrong.

Who are you beefing with? Certainly not me. Read the post I quoted.. it goes straight from removed to feature to repackage of the first game. Thats a statement mired in viscous unreason if you ask me. Which you are.

This seems like a pretty fair statement to me. So far I've found pretty much no innovation over DS1. The game is fun, sure, but there's nothing particularly different about it. Not that that would be inherently bad, either, if they hadn't been pushing the new mechanics so hard, only to rip them out. Don't promise me a fresh apple pie with ice cream and then serve me yesterday's cold apple pie by itself.
 
I am trying to imagine what this thread would look like if they HAD left the graphics in as is and you went on complaining about the performance of the game

There are just way to many assumptions being made here
 

Grief.exe

Member
The discrepancy is jarring but I went into the ps3 version expecting a less graphically intense game.

Just the nature of playing on the old platform and thankfully it plays and looks good enough for me to enjoy my time with it.

I say you guys should be more upset it the PC version looks like crap

That is what the majority of us are worried about. Bad visuals on consoles are acceptable, there is no reason for the PC version to not look like the demo builds though.

I'm hoping the graphical features were removed last minute for emergency optimization, and From is just taking the time to fully complete the visual work for the entire game.
 

marrec

Banned
Do people not realize how important, no matter how small this thread is, that this issue is? There are developers reading this, and half the responses in here are telling them they can lie to us about their product, up until and after release, and it's up to us to figure out what's wrong with it. Please don't let this stand. Please fight for your rights as a consumer. No one should be allowed to show things they aren't selling, regardless of what it is.

This is exactly where I'm lost. I don't see this particular issue as important because it's endemic to 'Video Games'. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last time that enthusiast consumers and press see changes from pre-release to release, it's part of the process. I'm really trying to understand the vitriol here and where it's coming from but it's simply baffling to me personally.

I don't see it as some noble fight for my rights...
 
You guys saw plenty of evidence this game wasn't going to look good in the leadup to launch and you didn't think for one second that it might be truly indicative of the final product?

What are you talking about? the PS3 betas looked better than the final game.
 
I think this is why there are so many torches in the game, these areas were meant to be lit by the user to actually see wtf is going on. Now that everything is nice and bright you don't need to.

I... actually find this pretty plausible, especially when you consider the areas where the surrounding geometry looks like a PS2 game with a light source at a spot that would have been dramatic if lit properly.
 
You know, after the fact that the infamous XB1 reversal because of the twitter campaign, and after the fact that Dark Souls 1 was ported to PC entirely because of an internet petition of all things, you would think that people would stop feeling the need to post useless smug posts like yours.
.

See, the thing is that there was nothing stopping Dark Souls 1 from (no pun intended) getting ported to PC and flipping the XBone switch, while it was a miracle, there was nothing technically stopping it. Unless XBone had had a hardware DRM-chippy chippy chip, but it didn't.

Meanwhile, I don't know if you have played Dark Souls 2: Downgrade Edition (I haven't, waiting for the PC version to come out and getting my key from SimplyGames), but if the gods of technology, Digital Foundry, say that the game barely runs 30 frames per second with all the so-called last second downgrades, you can't really REALLY realistically expect the lightning being patched back in if it ever was in the first place. If it happens, cool: I am sure they heard the screams on the Twitters and hired a outsider super hero to optimize their game to hell and back.

The point I am missing is the "splaining" part in the topic title. What is the question you need the answer to but can't figure out. "Why?" is kinda obvious, "is PC" is pretty much 0 chance of answer + wait for 4 weeks, "When" is probably never and "How" could be anything):

No. The point was that the trailers and demos, which ran on real PS3 hardware in many trade shows,
Did it really?


were flagrantly unrepresentative of the final game and were perpetuated by their marketing department up until release. This not only includes one of the largest graphical downgrades in recent memory (it dwarfs the Watch Dogs downgrade), but it also eviscerates the lighting system that From themselves hyped to hell and back through their previews. This includes severe flaws in the game's level design (one of the most important aspects of the Souls series), the obvious issues with graphical fidelity that go without saying, and a drastic performance hit despite the downgrades (which affects gameplay). There are also any graphical oddities that are almost guaranteed to be linked to the fact that much of the previously pitch-black areas were now visible, such as enemies literally popping into view (likely an optimization that was assuming you wouldn't have seen that pop in a pitch-black area), and animations running in a lower framerate if the enemy is at a moderate distance away (same likely optimization).

All of these issues directly affect gameplay, the one thing the Souls series is most coveted for. And none of these were even vaguely communicated prior to launch, and there has been zero official explanation to these incredibly obvious flaws and direct contradictions to their hype to this day.

What was they supposed to communicate? "Yeah we can't really deliver the things we promised on this piece of shit hardware and if we could, it would cost us millions and millions of outside help we can't really afford right now so ummm prepare to whine"?

Zero official explanation? See my previous lines above the quote

So yes, you missed the point.

Okay, I admit to the semi-smugness but missing the point on purpose isn't really missing the point.
 

Violater

Member
I am trying to imagine what this thread would look like if they HAD left the graphics in as is and you went on complaining about the performance of the game

There are just way to many assumptions being made here

Are you reading the thread?
There are still performance issues even with the features removed.
 

atr0cious

Member
Who are you beefing with? Certainly not me. Read the post I quoted.. it goes straight from removed to feature to repackage of the first game. Thats a statement mired in viscous unreason if you ask me. Which you are.

Viscous, huh? So when Nintendo makes a new game, what do we call it, regardless of what they add? Repackaged rehashes, more of the same, yadad yada. And Dark Souls 2 without the lighting mechanics would be? Did Dark Souls 2 do anything else differently I'm not aware of?
 
You mean everyone willing to leave the console gamers out in the cold? I plan on buying this on pc (though have played a good 25 hours on a friend's ps3) and I still don't think it's right. It still won't be right if the PC version looks like the previous advertisements and beta. Not everyone can afford a gaming rig as well as a console, and saying that it's fine to lie to console gamers as long as you get yours is wrong.

Whats the Lie again?

Why would anyone expect the reveal content to be the PS3 product when

1 - PC was up front listed as the lead development platform

2 - They never explicity stated or promised what the Last gen console versions would be. Heck they never even addressed what the discrepancies would be until recently when they stated that the PC version would look much better

At worst the game is very comparable to the 2 games that preceded it visually except it does seem to have less framerate issues.
 
Can someone with the console version tell me if the Sunshafts are there

they are, but its's not a universal thing, they don't appear in every area (not every area has lighting like that either). Majulum (the area seen in those GIFs) is one of the more impressive areas in the game so far.

The issue here is that we were deceived all the way up until launch, with no indication that the graphics had been butchered beyond recognition until the game was already in our hands.

this kind of obscene hyperbole doesn't help anyone. its not beyond recognition. were it literally beyond recognition, you wouldn't even be able to make the comparison you linked to because you, as the phrase stipulates, would not be able to recognize it. is there an obvious difference? yes. are you unable to recognize the retail version as being the same game? no. it's clear they turned off a lot of features.
 

Narroo

Member
On the other hand, there are areas which clearly weren't completely redone, but are still designed for darkness and now uniformly illuminated by a strong (last minute?) ambient light term. You can tell that they were designed not to be as generally visible as they are in the final version both by the way they are textured and by how enemies spawn.


This one?
:p

Wait, let me rephrase that; have you played the port? It was an awful port that required significant hacking to make work right. Looks nice; plays bad.
 
You guys saw plenty of evidence this game wasn't going to look good in the leadup to launch and you didn't think for one second that it might be truly indicative of the final product?

People played the demo versions of the game at events. They were played on PS3. They looked far superior. How stupid of us to think we might get what was advertised as console versions all the time.
 

Bedlam

Member
http://i.minus.com/iy5JuewZx20Mi.gif[IMG]

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iJL8MYpKtzfaR.gif[IMG]

All these GIFs from the making of.

Can someone with the console version tell me if the Sunshafts are there

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ioW9cTreSxoLG.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]
Yes, they are there. Dynamic shadows too. The area looks absolutely fantastic in the final game.
 
Tech demos, convention reveals, non-final product videos are never a promise to the consumer. Games change during development. Publishers have been showing fake footage for ages anyway. People should know by now not to take a tech demo as an explicit or personal promise.
 
This is what confuses me the most, since the Network Test was done on PS3's right? I don't remember people saying the framerate was atrocious in the network builds.

Edit: DS2 with the lighting all fucked up destroys the atmosphere as much as playing Amnesia in a fully lit room full of cute kittens and puppies playing around.

You have some very selective memory then. Frame rate was even worse in the network test and it wasn't encompassing the whole game.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=87660523&postcount=1954
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85861429&postcount=724
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85810741&postcount=419
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85810381&postcount=413
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=89245882&postcount=2487

And you can thank this guy :p
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=85879939&postcount=853
 

atr0cious

Member
This is exactly where I'm lost. I don't see this particular issue as important because it's endemic to 'Video Games'. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last time that enthusiast consumers and press see changes from pre-release to release, it's part of the process. I'm really trying to understand the vitriol here and where it's coming from but it's simply baffling to me personally.

I don't see it as some noble fight for my rights...

So a car dealer can bring you a car show you great features, then after you buy it, you realize those features aren't in your car. The dealer is like, oh lol sorry, it was having performance issues, you can still drive it though.

The game was shown a MONTH ago on PS3, on people's PERSONAL systems, not a a convention, in their homes. If they an change the game after that, but still sell the old version, using the old game, they are lying. Which they are.
 

marrec

Banned
People played the demo versions of the game at events. They were played on PS3. They looked far superior. How stupid of us to think we might get what was advertised as console versions all the time.

This is what I'm most interested in. Apparently there's some version of the game out there that looks significantly better and plays the exact same as the one that was released?

So a car dealer can bring you a car show you great features, then after you buy it, you realize those features aren't in your car. The dealer is like, oh lol sorry, it was having performance issues, you can still drive it though.

The game was shown a MONTH ago on PS3, on people's PERSONAL systems, not a a convention, in their homes. If they an change the game after that, but still sell the old version, using the old game, they are lying. Which they are.

I wasn't aware that Dark Souls II is a car.
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Viscous, huh? So when Nintendo makes a new game, what do we call it, regardless of what they add? Repackaged rehashes, more of the same, yadad yada. And Dark Souls 2 without the lighting mechanics would be? Did Dark Souls 2 do anything else differently I'm not aware of?
See? Now we're off in the weeds talking about Nintendo's franchise stagnation and the great sequelitis of the mainstream. You're just ouraged dude, at everything.
 

Riddler

Member
Only some PC people are saying that. I want the PC version, but I'm not buying it. Period. I will not let a company make money dishonestly off of me.


Do people not realize how important, no matter how small this thread is, that this issue is? There are developers reading this, and half the responses in here are telling them they can lie to us about their product, up until and after release, and it's up to us to figure out what's wrong with it. Please don't let this stand. Please fight for your rights as a consumer. No one should be allowed to show things they aren't selling, regardless of what it is.


Dark Intention & Launch trailer look like retail. What are you talking about?
 

Grief.exe

Member
Whats the Lie again?

Why would anyone expect the reveal content to be the PS3 product when

1 - PC was up front listed as the lead development platform

2 - They never explicity stated or promised what the Last gen console versions would be. Heck they never even addressed what the discrepancies would be until recently when they stated that the PC version would look much better

At worst the game is very comparable to the 2 games that preceded it visually except it does seem to have less framerate issues.

They told the media and the public that all footage shown was from the PS3 version. The demos shown had PS3 consoles on the table. Speculation, PCs were running the gameplay at all times during these preview events.

You would have sort through interviews from that time period, but I'm sure someone has already sourced that material in one of these massive threads.
 

Kieli

Member
This is exactly where I'm lost. I don't see this particular issue as important because it's endemic to 'Video Games'. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last time that enthusiast consumers and press see changes from pre-release to release, it's part of the process. I'm really trying to understand the vitriol here and where it's coming from but it's simply baffling to me personally.

I don't see it as some noble fight for my rights...

FromSoft has been developing for the PS3 for the more than half-a-decade now. They perfectly fucking know what can and can't be done on the platform.

I'm not buying the fact that the mega-downgrade was some last minute attempt at optimization. I doubt it was in the game in the first place. Those demos or what-not were probably just super-well-crafted vertical slices of the game (and nothing more).
 
Tech demos, convention reveals, non-final product videos are never a promise to the consumer. Games change during development. Publishers have been showing fake footage for ages anyway. People should know by now not to take a tech demo as an explicit or personal promise.

Remember when Nintendo showed tech demos for Zelda in every console?

d2CsaDw.jpg


The difference is that they told us they were tech demos, go read impressions of the Beta/Demos on Gaming sites, they all praised the graphics because they were led to believe by Namco's PR that it was indicative of real gameplay.
 
Just from watching youtube videos.

A couple of the walkthroughs I was watching, the frame rate would drop whenever the player would walk into a room with a dynamic light source.

I think he means about whether or not the lighting was gutted for performance reasons, considering the game still runs poorly on consoles.
 

marrec

Banned
FromSoft has been developing for the PS3 for the more than half-a-decade now. They perfectly fucking know what can and can't be done on the platform.

I'm not buying the fact that the mega-downgrade was some last minute attempt at optimization. I doubt it was in the game in the first place. Those demos or what-not were probably just super-well-crafted vertical slices of the game (and nothing more).

So then what's your theory? That they're intentionally holding back for a next gen release?
 

See more supporting evidence

Clearly the changes were in response to performance testing on the platforms

So unless you think having the reveal performance (clearly PC) is technically possible on PS3/360 (maybe it is.. Im not a developer) I am not sure what other conclusion there is.
 

Geedorah

Member
You don't have to buy the game. Game demos and trailers usually (and I think they should always) have disclaimers talking about how the footage or demo is not final and is subject to change. As someone who posts on NeoGAF, you should, above anyone, know this. If they have these screenshots on the back of the box, I think you could probably cry "false advertising." I don't know if they had that kind of disclaimer when they showed the videos, but I think it's in the best interest of all companies to do that, because things can totally change. Think of movie trailers that show scenes that aren't actually in the movie. Is that false advertising as well?

The other key here is to stop preordering and stop rushing out to get a game the second it releases. If you're so concerned about consumer rights and getting jacked over by companies, why not wait to see what other consumers say about a product and then make your decision to buy or not to buy? You should know you're sensitive about these kinds of issues in games, so why not set yourself up for success by being a little more prudent about your game purchases?

This isn't at all about me or any lost 'value' I perceive, as I have not purchased (pre- or otherwise) Dark Souls 2 at this time. This is entirely about not saying anything about a clear and tangible decrease in the fidelity of the game. This is akin to the Aliens: Colonial Marines fiasco in my view.

And to address your question about movies, if I saw a trailer for a Bond movie that featured a person of African decent as the lead, and when I got the theater and all the posters still had that lead actor - but when I sat down and started watching it was anyone other than who had been billed as the lead, I would have the same reaction as I am to this situation. From/Namco 'sold/is selling' this product while it clearly doesn't match the material used for marketing. That is a sham.
 
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