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#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco

X

XANDER CAGE

Member
Nags said:
So, how many of you are enjoying the game?
Click to expand...

Most of us, I think, but as several people have tried to explain already: that doesn't make the changes any less disappointing or interesting.

The Sopranos is a really good show, but if they had aired that episode with the hilariously bad CG/composite footage mom without explaining that the actress had passed away people would probably want to know what the heck happened. And guess what - that episode remains a weird blip on the show's track record, even with people who adore it. Similarly, I can enjoy Dark Souls 2 and still think the graphics switcheroo was a bummer. There are things I like, and things I don't like - the flat lighting and pointless sconces included.

Obviously, this situation isn't that extreme (nobody died - I hope!) but this idea that it's not worth discussing things because the rest of the experience is good is getting frustrating.
 
M

marrec

Banned
XANDER CAGE said:
Most of us, I think, but as several people have tried to explain already: that doesn't make the changes any less disappointing or interesting.

The Sopranos is a really good show, but if they had aired that episode with the hilariously bad CG/composite footage mom without explaining that the actress had passed away people would probably want to know what the heck happened. And guess what - that episode remains a weird blip on the show's track record, even with people who adore it. Similarly, I can enjoy Dark Souls 2 and still think the graphics switcheroo was a bummer.

Obviously, this situation isn't that extreme (nobody died - I hope!) but this idea that it's not worth discussing things because the rest of the experience is good is getting frustrating.
Click to expand...

While I think that there is some overreaction going on concerning all of this, I also think that the discussion is totally important going forward. Which is why I'm participating in the thread even though I had zero exposure to pre-release Dark Souls II material and still intend to buy the game on PC (when it gets cheap enough). So ya, the idea that people should stop complaining because Dark Souls II is good kind of severely misses the point just like the idea that people should stop complaining about misogyny in Games because they're just 'Video Games' misses the point.

ThatGayWolf said:
Maybe they should...
/overreaction
Click to expand...

#YOULIEDSOYOUDIED
 
F

FairXchange

Member
zephervack said:
Everyone, read the actual thread, the gameplay is amazing and worthy of the name dark souls, our issue is that they did a huge bait and switch with the trailers before.

The biggest problem is tons of people saw the lightning running on PS3 2 months ago, and now they completely removed it.
Click to expand...
If it was anything like it appeared to be, the fucking lighting system in the old build sucked and needed to be removed. The worst moments in Dark Souls were in areas like the Tomb of the Giants where you could either see what's around you, or use your shield and sword in complete darkness.

Their original idea in Dark Souls 2 (as evidenced by the beta) was to give you a sword in one hand, and a torch in the other and let you manage that across a multitude of areas in the game. The problem is that leaves out builds like two-handed swords or bows, which goes against the entire premise of playing how you want.

I don't think hardware limitations were the culprit for the lighting engine being changed, I think it was due to balance and to preserve the game's playability, rather than make the entire game an exercise in torch management.
 
Z

zephervack

Member
DrROBschiz said:
The explanation is going to be "the limits of the hardware"

What else could it be?
Click to expand...

That would be great, if they came out and said this, "we couldnt get it running on current consoles, but dont worry the PC version has this effects in place"

Thats all I want to hear.

Shit is going to hit the fan if the PC version has everything missing and looks exactly as the Console version, because that means that they prepared false trailers/demos to advertise the game.

They cant say the couldnt get it running on PC, they just cant, they already showed it.
 
T

The Lamp

Member
CuckFupertino said:
There may be some areas with lower-than-usual resolution textures, but nothing that approaches it "looking like a PS2 game." It looks nothing like a PS2 game. It looks like a PS3 game trying to push the envelope at the end of a console cycle - one that ended up making a few (too many? you decide) sacrifices.

If you were in charge of marketing, how would you go about making it "clear" that PC looks better than console? And who is that message for, really? People with PCs and consoles, so they can decide between the two versions? If you own a gaming PC, you know it's going to look *way* better than consoles. Should people without a PC be notified their version is graphically inferior? If you're a Dark Souls fan, which is indeed a niche group, I seriously doubt you're going to pass on this one because of the graphics. Finally, if you only own a PC and no consoles, then what are you complaining about?

This is far from the only game to use suped-up PC footage when showing off the game at trade shows, etc. Point me in the direction of any cross-gen game that came out recently, and I guarantee you they all used the best in-game footage available for marketing (i.e. high-end PC or next-gen). Hell, many games don't even use in game footage in their marketing - just CGI explosions and the like.
Click to expand...

I disagree, there are parts of the game that, as I said, look like something out of the PS2 era, though this is not even the worst example I've seen in the game. Bottom right screenshot is retail, and in person it looks just as bad. The fire and ground textures lol.

Dark-Souls-II2-630x354.jpg
 
Raven77

Raven77

Member
DrROBschiz said:
The explanation is going to be "the limits of the hardware"

What else could it be?
Click to expand...

Could you explain how it would be the limits of the hardware when the game has been played, as recently as last month, on PS3's by many many people, looking as good as it does in those pretty trailers?
 
T

ThatGayWolf

Member
FairXchange said:
Their original idea in Dark Souls 2 (as evidenced by the beta) was to give you a sword in one hand, and a torch in the other and let you manage that across a multitude of areas in the game. The problem is that leaves out builds like two-handed swords or bows, which goes against the entire premise of playing how you want.
Click to expand...

What you're saying would be correct, if there weren't sconces everywhere to light. That are now pointless.
 
A

atr0cious

Member
marrec said:
While I think that there is some overreaction going on concerning all of this, I also think that the discussion is totally important going forward. Which is why I'm participating in the thread even though I had zero exposure to pre-release Dark Souls II material and still intend to buy the game on PC (when it gets cheap enough). So ya, the idea that people should stop complaining because Dark Souls II is good kind of severely misses the point just like the idea that people should stop complaining about misogyny in Games because they're just 'Video Games' misses the point.



#YOULIEDSOYOUDIED
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but you just invalidated your opinion. You're waiting for this game to be cheap, on a platform no one is worried about, and you're asking people why this is a big deal.

People value their $60, andif they want to spend it on day one, they shouldn't be told they're stupid for believing the creators of the game.
 
Alebrije

Alebrije

Member
ThatGayWolf said:
Roommate and I bought Demon's souls again last night, and I'd argue (as he agreed last night) that even that has better lighting than DS2.
Click to expand...

Wow , its a shame . Specially talking about a game released at end of a generation. That unbalanced finish just give the feeling that developers just made this game for money.
 
C

Clott

Member
Just excited to get an official statement, I am on the fence of buying this game right now, but their silence is definitely something to worry about.

I will buy on the PC if the game is restored, and if not I will wait till a PS4 version is announced.
 
M

malboroking

Banned
Unknown Soldier said:
In all of gaming history, no game has ever had a technical downgrade when the developer realized they could not reach their original goal with engine, asset, or design. This unprecedented downgrade, the first ever in all of gaming history, requires direct intervention from the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Japan! #OBAMASAVEDARKSOULS #ABEONEGAISHIMASU
Click to expand...

Could you please not spout passive-aggressive bullshit? The footage that they showed off last month did not have any of the downgrades. The making of video released two weeks ago emphasized the lighting system as a huge new addition to the game. This had to have been taken out by the time this was filmed and they still misled everybody into believing this is what the final product would be. This isn't like the FF7 commercials showing nothing but CGAF, at least with that the previews in magazines showed actual in-game footage that resembled the final product. From did no such thing.
 
Z

zephervack

Member
FairXchange said:
If it was anything like it appeared to be, the fucking lighting system in the old build sucked and needed to be removed. The worst moments in Dark Souls were in areas like the Tomb of the Giants where you could either see what's around you, or use your shield and sword in complete darkness.

Their original idea in Dark Souls 2 (as evidenced by the beta) was to give you a sword in one hand, and a torch in the other and let you manage that across a multitude of areas in the game. The problem is that leaves out builds like two-handed swords or bows, which goes against the entire premise of playing how you want.

I don't think hardware limitations were the culprit for the lighting engine being changed, I think it was due to balance and to preserve the game's playability, rather than make the entire game an exercise in torch management.
Click to expand...

I agree with you that the torch gameplay might have been annoying, but that doesnt explain gutting the graphics in places where you are not using the torch at all, like the Dragon Mansion

Retail = http://gfycat.com/FatalWhirlwindKissingbug

Reveal = http://gfycat.com/CarefreeNewHornet
 
S

swazzyswess

Member
zephervack said:
Shit is going to hit the fan if the PC version has everything missing and looks exactly as the Console version, because that means that they prepared false trailers/demos to advertise the game.
Click to expand...

Yeah, or those were discrete sections presented to the public when the game was still in development and they were able to perform better without the burden of a mostly seamless open world eating up resources.

The amount of assumptions being made by the #YOULIED (hahaha) crowd is incredible.
 
S

SilverBullet

Member
Stone Ocean said:
Playing it this exact moment. Enjoying it immensely.

Still want an explanation.
Click to expand...


Same here. The game is awesome. In fact, by tweaking some TV setting I get pretty close to look of the demo (in the lighting).

I think FROM's explanation will be very obvious: "The Demo was/is nexgen/PC. We had to adjust it to current gen"
 
M

marrec

Banned
atr0cious said:
I'msorry but you just invalidated your opinion. You're waiting for this game to be cheap, on a platform no one is worried about, and you're asking people why this is a big deal.

People value their $60, andif they want to spend it on day one, they shouldn't be told they're stupid for believing the creators of the game.
Click to expand...

I think you missed the point of my post. I don't think it's a big deal BUT I understand and sympathize with people who do and want to discuss it with them! That's why I bristle at the posts claiming that this is entitlement culture or to just play the game and enjoy it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop complaining, even if I see it as overreaction, but I do want to understand the nuances of the complaints.
 
C

CadetMahoney

Member
zephervack said:
Shit is going to hit the fan if the PC version has everything missing and looks exactly as the Console version, because that means that they prepared false trailers/demos to advertise the game.
Click to expand...

No. All they need to do is put the lighting back in and ppl will be celebrating.

They will ignore all the other downgrades such as geometry, missing furniture and downgraded scenery.
 
N

Nags

Banned
Gbraga said:
So, it's either

Dark Souls II PC |OT| The Dark Souls of Downgrades

or

Dark Souls II PC |OT| Lighting Returns

It's up to you, From :C
Click to expand...

Oh I think I understand now. Some of you guys are scared that the PC version won't look any better than the console version? Or maybe a little salt over getting it 6 weeks later? Maybe both?

I understand this is a legitimate complaint and discussion about the downgrade though. There's a difference and they aren't being honest about it, sure. Maybe a definitive edition would be a good idea. ;)
 
D

DrROBschiz

Member
Raven77 said:
Could you explain how it would be the limits of the hardware when the game has been played, as recently as last month, on PS3's by many many people, looking as good as it does in those pretty trailers?
Click to expand...

Because the performance of a demo doesn't indicate the performance of a full game?

Potential performance issues likely became very apparent after the BETA

And what the hell is with the Last Month played claim? Wasn't it 2 months ago a few posts back?

What the hell are you referring to? Source please
 
K

Kinsei

Banned
Nags said:
Oh I think I understand now. Some of you guys are scared that the PC version won't look any better than the console version? Or maybe a little salt over getting it 6 weeks later? Maybe both?

I understand this is a legitimate complaint and discussion about the downgrade though. There's a difference and they aren't being honest about it, sure. Maybe a definitive edition would be a good idea. ;)
Click to expand...

I don't think a definitive edition would be a good idea. It will make From look even worse in my eyes.
 
M

marrec

Banned
DrROBschiz said:
Because the performance of a demo doesn't indicate the performance of a full game?

Potential performance issues likely became very apparent after the BETA

And what the hell is with the Last Month played claim? Wasn't it 2 months ago a few posts back?

What the hell are you referring to? Source please
Click to expand...

I think he was referring to the beta? But I also think that the beta was already different from what they were showing in Jan?
 
S

Stone Ocean

Member
Nags said:
Oh I think I understand now. Some of you guys are scared that the PC version won't look any better than the console version? Or maybe a little salt over getting it 6 weeks later? Maybe both?
Click to expand...
Neither, we're hopeful there's still a chance the PC version looks like the initial reveal or at least the beta considering there's no hardware constraints to warrant cutting features - plus the Steam store page for Dark Souls 2 has a trailer with gameplay from the reveal version.
 
A

atr0cious

Member
marrec said:
I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop complaining, even if I see it as overreaction, but I do want to understand the nuances of the complaints.
Click to expand...
Your concept of what you value $60 to be worth is why you see overreaction. You come off sounding like you're trying to translate our woes for others to understand, when it's not a complex idea to begin with.

Whoever makes a product, be it food, car, house, gun, game, should not be able to sell you on things that won't be in the final product. The Ouya got buried for this, how is a game any different? Especially something being promoted as something it's not at release?
 
G

Gbraga

Member
Nags said:
Oh I think I understand now. Some of you guys are scared that the PC version won't look any better than the console version? Or maybe a little salt over getting it 6 weeks later?

I understand this is a legitimate complaint and discussion about the downgrade though. There's a difference and they aren't being honest about it, sure. Maybe a definitive edition would be a good idea. ;)
Click to expand...

Not any better, it will look better, not worried about that. I'm just wondering if it'll be pre-downgrade better or retail better.
 
D

DrROBschiz

Member
atr0cious said:
Your concept of what you value $60 to be worth is why you see overreaction. You come off sounding like you're trying to translate our woes for others to understand, when it's not a complex idea to begin with.

Whoever makes a product, be it food, car, house, gun, game, should not be able to sell you on things that won't be in the final product. The Ouya got buried for this, how is a game any different? Especially something being promoted as something it's not at release?
Click to expand...

Outside of MGSV

Has any cross gen/cross platform game been marketed with the inferior versions?

It would have been nice for Namco to price it accordingly though.... Its ironic that the PC version is actually cheaper
 
A

Adaren

Member
Nags said:
Oh I think I understand now. Some of you guys are scared that the PC version won't look any better than the console version?
Click to expand...

This. I'm patient enough to wait 6 months if the PC version is the marketed experience, but the lack of honesty and communication about the console versions is worrying. Still hoping for the best.
 
F

FairXchange

Member
zephervack said:
I agree with you that the torch gameplay might have been annoying, but that doesnt explain gutting the graphics in places where you are not using the torch at all, like the Dragon Mansion

Retail = http://gfycat.com/FatalWhirlwindKissingbug

Reveal = http://gfycat.com/CarefreeNewHornet
Click to expand...

That can be explained with lack of hardware power, and also lack of financial resources. No matter what Namco said about treating this like an AAA game, I'm willing to bet it had 1/20th of the budget that legitimate AAA games have.

So ultimately we can cry over the changes that appear to have occurred, or relish in the fact that this relatively cheap game to make puts standard AAA games to shame in the gameplay and depth categories. I just prefer the latter, personally.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
The Lamp said:
I disagree, there are parts of the game that, as I said, look like something out of the PS2 era, though this is not even the worst example I've seen in the game. Bottom right screenshot is retail, and in person it looks just as bad. The fire and ground textures lol.

Dark-Souls-II2-630x354.jpg
Click to expand...
There are parts of Dark Souls that look worse. The river in Darkroot and the Centipede Demon come to mind.
 
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