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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: Hangar Module

Daedardus

Member
I'm not an engineer, so I can't give a very accurate explanation of this, but I can give my interpretation of how this was explained to me.

Typically, large scale games use chunks to display their space, eg 4x4x4km volumes. Each chunk is static and as you move through space you move between chunks. The issue with single point precision is that chunks outside the one you're currently in can contain rendering errors, and are relatively limited in size. Implementing double precision will eliminate any potential rendering errors in the distance, and will enable bigger chunks.

Well, I'm an engineer-in-the-making and it kinda makes sense, but it still doesn't explain why closer chunks won't contain rendering errors but further one do, seeing as their data structure should be around the same, only loaded differently. It still could be due to some sort of 'lossy' data compression, seeing as chunks further away require less detail and thus floating errors can creep in. But I'm not in software engineering so I'm not an expert :p.

If someone has ever had experience with computer graphics, enlighten me, you don't have to worry about being too technical.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
It will practically just mean that you will be able to see things farther in the distance, and they will have the potential to look much better.
No.
It means that everything doesn't break apart when things get further from origin.
Meaning numerical accuracy and floating point errors accumulate and break game logic, physics cause visible errors etc when dealing with enough accuracy in big enough space.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131393/a_realtime_procedural_universe_.php?print=1

If someone is interested how Frontier did things on Amiga, here's some insight to the insanity.
http://www.jongware.com/galaxy1.html
 

Blizzard

Banned
I don't know if this is the particular case they are concerned about, but one issue with space games is if everything is given an absolute position, rather than a relative position in a zone, then yes I believe you will lose precision once you get out to a certain number of arbitrary units from the origin.


Regarding Star Citizen as a whole, it does seem to have a very vocal group which will defend against criticism, and indeed, it will be able to use the alpha/beta defense through 2015, 2016, or however long it takes until they presumably declare a version stable.

However, I think a couple of key questions are going to be whether 40+ million dollars were effectively used, and whether the priorities and skills of the development team as a whole are going to produce a polished, cohesive product.

Obviously opinions may eternally differ on whether a game's quality is good, or "$40 million good". I see virtually no way that people will ever agree on that (some will be happy, others will feel the money should have been able to fix problems or do more), so you have a divide off the bat.

Regarding the polish, I understand there are grand goals, and I understand (I do software engineering for a living so this is painfully true) that more money and more people do not necessarily mean anything will be developed better or faster. However, I suppose I keep getting the IMPRESSION that excessive effort or funding or time are being spent in weird areas. Maybe a ship is remodeled, or maybe yet another ship's concept art and model are created since yet another funding milestone occurs. Maybe the weapon, or hanger, or ship also use far more polygons than are necessary, and maybe a vast LOD pass later on will clean this sort of thing up. Then again maybe not so much time needed spent on that, and it might be a better idea to focus on polishing one aspect or module before moving on?

This is where I feel other smaller groups producing playable, reasonably polished products is actually an important point. Focusing resources better might actually be a good idea, while Star Citizen runs the risk of becoming a bloated giant with wavering focus and a variety of problems that may individually be considered unimportant and unaddressed.

The eternal refrain of optimization is "it's an alpha" or "it's a beta" or "optimization happens last" or "it will get patched", changing as time goes on, but some projects may never reach the levels that are expected. As computing power improves, there can also be an eternal refrain of "Well you just need to upgrade" as opposed to "Some big inefficiencies could actually have bene improved".

Yes, time will tell with all of this, and I would love Star Citizen to turn out great. I signed up for the project early on, paying more than any normal retail release, and I accept the risk with that. But ultimately, I think it is important to maintain transparency, continue to track the problems that do exist, and not merely defend for defense's sake.
 

Zabojnik

Member
Yes, time will tell with all of this, and I would love Star Citizen to turn out great. I signed up for the project early on, paying more than any normal retail release, and I accept the risk with that. But ultimately, I think it is important to maintain transparency, continue to track the problems that do exist, and not merely defend for defense's sake.

To me it feels like that's exactly what CIG and the sane & mature part of the community have been doing from day 1. At the end of the day, it really comes down to this: I want them to keep pushing things as far as they can. It's been forever since we had a PC game that went 'all out' and I for one don't want to see them start compromising on detail, complexity, scope and whatnot just because part of the community is bitching about how messy and buggy an alfa looks, about the inevitable delays and so on. As long as development keeps progressing steadily - and if you've been following the game closely, especially since the beginning of this year, it really has - and they keep showing & telling us what's going on ... I'm on board a 100%. If everything goes (more or less) according to plan, Star Citizen and everything related to it, including mods, will be around for at least 10 years. I'm in no rush.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
As i said, the focus for Star Citizen is to simulate everything. Its not all about graphical fidelity, but how that details affect gameplay too. You wont have something like boarding ships or managing ships by multiple crews in Elite, their engine and all systems wont do that without serious reworkings.

I read the FAQ of SC (im a backer), but did you read ED's one? In the initial release you will be able to hite NPC crews and later on player crews for larger ships.

Ship wont be made by modules that can be disabled or damaged like in SC, so for example if You board ship in SC and You gun down a module that is responsible for life support You can suffocate rest of the crew, You can also damage this module in combat and in every ship that module will be in different place, because location of such a module has to make sense.

You can target and damage specific sub systems, like cargo hatch, drive, weapons, power distribution, shield generator, life support, power plant. The anacondas, a larger ship in the game has hull damage since alpha, missiles will literally open up its belly open and you can see inside. The cargo will fly out too.

Of course everything on the ship and in the ship changes its weight and its distribution so its affecting flight model.
And this goes for everything, from weapon movement, to engines movements, to flight control systems, landing gear to systems managing stealth systems or shields.
And this kind of details will be used in all interactive object in the environment too.

We'll see in the large scale of the game, they have a long way to go from a tech demo to the actual game. But if ED can model all celestial bodies affecting flight, i dont see why additional mass by the crew members wouldnt affect the flight model.

And everything will be tracked and manage in persistent universe, so in combat You have tons of physics and interaction You will never know about that You have to sync with clients and this why DFM network backend is so complicated.

At this point for both games its too early to tell. But why do i have a feeling that SC mmo side will turn off a LOT of "little" details like you say? Latency will be fucking crazy otherwise.

In Elite You will have just few blocks with preset characteristics as a ships.

Im not sure what you even mean. Customization? Again, check.


And i can assure You that expanding from Elite to SC will much harder than from SC to Elite, because Elite will have to change everything to get it working, from all assets to all physics,

wtf lol
ok sure. in SC they just press the button and its done. SC is entirely crafted and will be more akin to an arena actually even with boundaries. They are going for the cinematic look environment wise, not "simulation". Changing THAT to an actual simulation of celestial bodies, i dont think it'll be easier.

Will you be able to manually fly (not a cutscene) into a planet's atmosphere? And not just to a spaceport, but anywhere on the planet's surface? And eventually even take a walk around a lush forest or whatever is generated? SC needs an entirely new engine for just that, you dont work with models to get this done, from a far away planet to landing on it seamlessly, its done with algorithms and cryengine is not designed for this. I dont see that as the optimal way of doing things.

In the end, im stopping (really) talking about ED here, but cmon, at least check the FAQ a bit.
 

1cmanny1

Member
"Founder and CEO Chris Roberts" is the overlay that popped up as he is staring perplexed at the computer.

That PAX thing was embarrassing, even if the game is buggy he should know which things to click on and they should have tested the power-point. The guy that kept yelling was an idiot, I hope it was none of you.
Even Roberts was frustrated near the end, I agree they should have just pre-recorded a demo if they had no time to prepare.

It looked pretty though.
 
"Founder and CEO Chris Roberts" is the overlay that popped up as he is staring perplexed at the computer.

That PAX thing was embarrassing, even if the game is buggy he should know which things to click on and they should have tested the power-point. The guy that kept yelling was an idiot, I hope it was none of you.
Even Roberts was frustrated near the end, I agree they should have just pre-recorded a demo if they had no time to prepare.

It looked pretty though.

I don't know why they don't hire an actual PR company to handle these sorts of things. They clearly have no experience with it, and multiple times they've bungled live events horribly. They should really stick to the game and farm out the PR stuff like that.
 

Tommyhawk

Member
Screenshots from the PAX East demo:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/120693/some-pure-screenshots-of-pax-demo#latest

StarCitizenDev_2014-04-11_14-07-03-39.jpg

StarCitizenDev_2014-04-11_14-06-20-24.jpg

StarCitizenDev_2014-04-11_14-10-10-26.jpg

StarCitizenDev_2014-04-11_14-11-18-95.jpg


Those two of the broken moon map are especially snazzy. :O
 

epmode

Member
Their arists are ridiculous. I'm very happy with how this is shaping up, delayed or not.

The way I see it, I've already waited 10 years for a top tier space sim. I can wait a few more for another. In the meantime, Elite and Enemy Starfighter will keep me busy
 

Zabojnik

Member
Bullshots. Plus Elite: Dangerous looks much better, has a far superior art style and is at least three years ahead in terms of development. All at a fraction of SC's budget.
 
Bullshots. Plus Elite: Dangerous looks much better, has a far superior art style and is at least three years ahead in terms of development. All at a fraction of SC's budget.

rolling my eyes. Guess you are not used to Cryengine games? Also, did not know that elite was making an MMO persistent universe supporting undreds of thoudsands of players.

Both games look awesome btw.

edit: trolled hard? Trolled hard
 

Zabojnik

Member
Now imagine 'maps' like these populated with a pair of capital ships and a couple of squadrons fighting it out in a storm of lasers and missiles. You joining the fight with your trusted wingmen, epic music in the background.

1311947803699.jpg
 

Keasar

Member
Now imagine 'maps' like these populated with a pair of capital ships and a couple of squadrons fighting it out in a storm of lasers and missiles. You joining the fight with your trusted wingmen, epic music in the background.

Lasers? Psh. If I manage to get a Capital ship in SC, I am going full ballistic weaponry.

battlestar-galactica-battle.gif
 

fresquito

Member
I've been off for a long time now. When's the DF module coming? I see in the videos it's buggy as hell, but so was (is) the Hangar Module...
 

jblank83

Member
The eternal refrain of optimization is "it's an alpha" or "it's a beta" or "optimization happens last" or "it will get patched", changing as time goes on, but some projects may never reach the levels that are expected.

Alpha is a completely legitimate reason. Alphas are nowhere near complete. Alpha means not everything is done. Content is not finished. Gameplay systems may not be finished or are being tested and refined based on feedback. Art may be placeholder. It is nowhere near done.

And this is a pre-alpha. It's not even in alpha yet.

When the game gets to Beta, then it's time to start tearing it apart and roasting the developers. Until then, put away the pitchforks.
 

Daedardus

Member
Alpha is a completely legitimate reason. Alphas are nowhere near complete. Alpha means not everything is done. Content is not finished. Gameplay systems may not be finished or are being tested and refined based on feedback. Art may be placeholder. It is nowhere near done.

And this is a pre-alpha. It's not even in alpha yet.

When the game gets to Beta, then it's time to start tearing it apart and roasting the developers. Until then, put away the pitchforks.

The usage of alpha and beta isn't the same as the old days and they don't mean anything anymore. Only when this game gets released and it is buggy, then you can get your pitchforks. But not based on some stupid term people stick on non-distuinguishable development terms.
 

elseanio

Member
Does anyone have a rough guess on when they may introduce a simple flight mode? I'm more reluctant on getting the Freelancer as I'm sure it wont be included in Dog fights any time soon..
 

epmode

Member
Does anyone have a rough guess on when they may introduce a simple flight mode? I'm more reluctant on getting the Freelancer as I'm sure it wont be included in Dog fights any time soon..

I'm not sure what you mean about a simple flight mode.

If your ship isn't included in the first version of the module, you'll get access to an implemented ship until it's patched in.
 

jblank83

Member
The usage of alpha and beta isn't the same as the old days and they don't mean anything anymore.

The use of alpha absolutely still means "not finalized gameplay, not all content, just core engine and concepts", and that's how it's being used here.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/hangar-module
Keep in mind that this is a very early pre-alpha release. Much of what you see and experience will change as the game continues to be developed.

This is in reference to the hangar module, but it shows the meaning of the word as the developer intends to use it (i.e. the classic definition of "alpha" software). It's not a nebulous catch-all term, either. Look it up on software engineering websites. It is software that is not feature complete.

A couple of people, even developers, misusing the term "alpha" in reference to the state of their software hasn't changed the well established industry-wide meaning of that term. Star Citizen being in pre-alpha means the developer is extra serious about this not being anything close to even beta gameplay.
 

Tommyhawk

Member
Towels for everyone!

Towels with "damage" states!

Towel_rack.jpg

Observist_towel_damaged.jpg


The 44 mio. stretch goal is a stellar cartography room for the hangars:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13812-Letter-From-The-Chairman-42-Million

Stellar Cartography – Walk among the distant horizons you’ve charted in Star Citizen’s dedicated “map room” featuring a 3D holographic representation of the known universe.
Your map room will start with a basic guide to the United Empire of Earth, and will expand into something that is unique to you as you explore uncharted worlds and discover new secrets.
Build the most in-depth universe map possible and show it off to visitors, or lock down your secret jump points and hidden trading posts so that no one else can follow.
Interface directly with the Observist guide to find out everything from what ores are in demand on MacArthur to who serves the best pasta on Terra.
And with the ability to leave your own notes about your encounters and travels, it’s more than a map: it’s your digital diary!
 

Daedardus

Member
The use of alpha absolutely still means "not finalized gameplay, not all content, just core engine and concepts", and that's how it's being used here.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/hangar-module


This is in reference to the hangar module, but it shows the meaning of the word as the developer intends to use it (i.e. the classic definition of "alpha" software). It's not a nebulous catch-all term, either. Look it up on software engineering websites. It is software that is not feature complete.

A couple of people, even developers, misusing the term "alpha" in reference to the state of their software hasn't changed the well established industry-wide meaning of that term. Star Citizen being in pre-alpha means the developer is extra serious about this not being anything close to even beta gameplay.

Alpha phase usually denotes the in-house testing of software that is not yet feature complete. The beta phase is the testing of feature complete software by a rather large group to squish out all the bugs. Pre-alpha usually is the testing of small pieces of code that do not yet have a function in the greater whole. A release for tens of thousands backers isn't exactly what I would call a pre-alpha. It's too much used as an excuse (or 'explanation') by video game devs for refering to the not yet finalised state of their software. And I know it's not really their fault but mostly some sort of pretext to protect them against their backers.

Really, people should just accept that not yet released software will be feature incomplete and buggy, but using a term like 'alpha', 'pre-alpha', 'pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha' changes nothing to the state of software it's in.
 

fresquito

Member
Alpha phase usually denotes the in-house testing of software that is not yet feature complete. The beta phase is the testing of feature complete software by a rather large group to squish out all the bugs. Pre-alpha usually is the testing of small pieces of code that do not yet have a function in the greater whole. A release for tens of thousands backers isn't exactly what I would call a pre-alpha. It's too much used as an excuse (or 'explanation') by video game devs for refering to the not yet finalised state of their software. And I know it's not really their fault but mostly some sort of pretext to protect them against their backers.

Really, people should just accept that not yet released software will be feature incomplete and buggy, but using a term like 'alpha', 'pre-alpha', 'pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha' changes nothing to the state of software it's in.
Well, it really does. You're applying old terms to a new developing system. What alpha or beta meant in the past is no longer relevant. SC is pre-alpha, you can see from miles away it is. It's green-green-green. The fact that thousands of people will get to play this doesn't mean the game is any more advanced. It's just a different system and some people don't understand it. I've seen plenty of people drawing conclusions from a pre-alpha build (I've been into Project CARS from the begining), like the game was finished. And I've seen a lot of people excuse everything because it's pre-alpha. It works both ways, and unless people start to realise this is a different proccess, you'lll see a lot of battles sorrounding semantics.

What I can tell you from what I've seen and what I've read about SC is that the game is developing at a very slow rate. I don't know what's going on inside and what's the deal, but my impression is that the development proccess lacks a strong direction. Like Blizzard said, I think they've gotten kind of blind because the huge amounts of money they've raised. I'm a bit worried about how long it will take this game to be a whole, if it ever happens.
 
Can I get an objective explanation for how this game got to $42 million? No private/angel investors at all? All just fans who've been thirsty for a grand PC space game for all these years? If so, how was it possible for this many people who were interested?

Have they given a blog post about all this?
 

Daedardus

Member
Most of the people pledging are guys who played space sims during the late 90's and are now well into their mid-thirties. They are mostly working in IT-related fields and earn quite a lot on average. That's why they are able to spend $300 on a game because they are so desperate for another space sim that might be able to fulfill their dreams.

You also have the bandwagon effect: once a lot of people jumped on it and you can be sure something gets delivered, it's easier for you to make a pledge because you know you'll get something in return.
 
"Can I get an objective explanation for how this game got to $42 million? No private/angel investors at all? All just fans who've been thirsty for a grand PC space game for all these years? If so, how was it possible for this many people who were interested? "


Yes, all crowdfunded. And there's this many people who are interested because there hasn't been a space sim that wasn't fairly low budget (relative to other games in their period) in a very long time. They've also kept crowd funding open since the initial pitch and more and more people have decided to throw in 40-50$ and some who had already pledged before have added on to their pledge with more money. It adds up.
 

epmode

Member
It also bears mentioning that the space sim genre used to be huge. It wasn't some cult/niche thing. Wing Commander 3 and 4 had the biggest budgets to date when they were released and they sold very well. While it's a shame that Freespace 2 bombed, the audience didn't disintegrate or anything.
 
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