theSlacker
Member
I don't think DS2 did anything relating to the first flame, and just tossed out a bunch of "linking the flame" buzzwords at the end that had no relevance to the story or rest of the game.
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The Dark Souls II Lore Thread of speculations, spoilers and headaches
- Thread starter SargerusBR
- Start date
I don't think DS2 did anything relating to the first flame, and just tossed out a bunch of "linking the flame" buzzwords at the end that had no relevance to the story or rest of the game.
Something that is off about the ending, is that the first flame is nowhere to be seen; true, in DS1 the first flame was yet another lowly Bonfire that Gwyn was guarding, but here there's nothing but a throne inside the little ash igloo in the final boss room. The first flame and linking the first flame are concepts only mentioned, I think, by Shanalotte, just before the final boss fight, and immediately afterwards in the ending.
Don't have an explanation.
My best guess is that Vendrick's neglect to link the fire simply made the first flame go off, and that the throne of want is some magic device born to replace it, after the Shanalotte experiment failed. Of course, this means that Nashandra won already, which would be weird.
Kevin Shields
Member
So we are certain that Vendrick wanted to link the flame, or at least wanted to find teh cure to the curse before he linked it and Nashandra wanted to bring in an age of dark, at least that's what I gathered. The Throne is a really awesome concept. I took it as like a "kingdom building" throne where you build your own world. But I don't know. I definitely don't think the DS2 writers just threw out buzzwords at the end to wrap it, linking the flame and age of dark are constant themes so I think the theme was still running through the game even if it wasn't front and center.
SeventhSon
Member
It reminded me of Darth Vader's hyperbaric chamber.
Ah that makes sense all the stuff that came from Aldia Keep and the dragon acolytes seemed to just be like Seath really like all the crystal formations.
theSlacker
Member
Except in DS2 they weren't. The dark was a constant concept, but nothing at all to do with the first flame till the very end which came out of nowhere and isn't even seen. The background noise about the throne and you becoming the next monarch was present throughout, but never anything about the flame.
We are not sure of Vendrick's intentions; as far as we know, he never seated on the throne of want, but this info comes from Nashandra and we don't know if she tells the truth. However, Nashandra does know the truth about the Ancient Dragon, as does the cat Shalquoir, but the cat doesn't say much about King Vendrick.
There's a lot we don't really know about Vendrick's adventures. It is said that he vanquished the four old ones, which probably means the guys who at that time held the Four Great Souls. But we never hear of Vendrick giving Souls to his vassals like Gwyn did, so why does the Old Iron King and fucking Lost Sinner have Big Souls? Is the taking of the four souls the same adventure that Nashandra sent him in the land of the giants? What did Vendrick stole from the giants that provoked such an invasion. At which point did he become king? etc etc.
(IMHO what was stolen was the Throne of Want itself, which is why the Giant Kinship has the description it has)
I really like the idea that each king is modifying the kingdom according to his own vision.
Yeah the first flame is rarely mentioned, maybe not at all until the very end.
The dark is interesting. The presence of Darkdiver Grandahl and the Chasm of Old, and the phantoms inside, and Darklurker, and the possibility that they are not related to Nashandra makes it super weird.
Kevin Shields
Member
Wasn't there mention of the Lost Sinner trying to link the flame and a couple other tidbits about it?
Lost Sinner is mentioned to be imprisoned for "Trying to light the First Flame…" (by Shalquoir, and aren't you going to believe such a cute cat :3), which may be a reference to the Witch of Izalith trying to recreate the first flame, or, maybe the first flame went off, and the Lost Sinner tried to relight it, and was imprisoned for that.
Do note that the Lost Sinner attempts were not met with the creation of another Bed of Chaos, so either she did not get as far, or maybe the WoI soul is trying to do something slightly different but similar this iteration.
The only problems I have with this theory and the theory behind the Throne Watcher and Defender is that they have Dark souls. So far, every soul that has that tinge has been corrupted by the dark or has been a servant of the dark.
Artorias in the original DLC was corrupted by the Dark and no longer carried out his purpose. If Velstadt, Defender, and Watcher are all corrupted, why would they continue their original purpose?
Good point.
It is possible that they are corrupted, and that in the end they will fall to Nashandra's side.
But that hasn't happened yet; Nashandra doesn't join the Throne Watcher/Defender even though it would be to their advantage if they were in cahoots.
Shanalotte is the world's biggest pessimist, and is always going about how she will help you "until hope fully withers" or about "this fragile hope". That to me points out that she fears that Velstadt and the Throne pair will fail eventually and that maybe you will be too late for that.
Not sure how that corruption works, though. Maybe it started when Velstadt and the throne pair were in the castle walking around Nashandra.
Possible too.
It's important to note that Velstadt calls upon the powers of Hexes (dark) when in trouble, I think the throne pair does too. Maybe their corruption is due to using Hexes. Maybe he can access Hexes because he is corrupted; works both ways.
Kevin Shields
Member
Wait I'm confused by the conversation of Throne Watcher/Defender. So they are defending it from Nashandra right?? Emerald says that Nashandra will come after you, as if you got those defenders out of the way, figured out the way to get into the throne, and Nashandra is just chilling there waiting until teh throne defenders are taken down, and then she wants to kill you to get the Giant Souls and whatever the hell else is needed to access the throne, and then she wants to kill you and take it right?? Am I correct in this?
The problem is, the throne is related to linking the fire by the Emerald, and she seems to want the world to turn dark... so why does she even want the Throne of Want?
The problem is, the throne is related to linking the fire by the Emerald, and she seems to want the world to turn dark... so why does she even want the Throne of Want?
theSlacker
Member
Yea, but it didn't have any story implications behind background for her specific character and what she was imprisoned for. Never before the final monologue and a chat with the herald before it is linking the flame anything you are trying to do, nor do you have any reason to believe has anything to do with what you have been trying to do. There is also no reason to believe, visually or story wise, that the throne of want has anything to do with the first flame before that. At least the stuff about becoming the next monarch is hinted throughout the game. Even in the cut dialog from other characters that makes other things clear, like Nashandra telling you to go to see the dragon/where it is/to use what it gives you to enter memories to proceed, has no further mention of linking the fire. It all comes off as an asspull at the end in a way to sound mysterious and link the story more to the first game.
My take on the story as a whole after playing through all the games too many times and reading all the guides:
The Dark Soul setup:
The 4 flames are eternal and will manifest in different ways depending on the times.
Each of the original four Souls/Flames grows when it is suppressed and wanes when it is allowed to flourish. This creates a balance between all four.
Ex1: Gwyn needed to sacrifice himself and countless undead to continue his rule, the King's soul waned, but as others flurished he required them to be sacrificed to his own. Despite all of the undead who sacrificed themselves the flame was still fading.
Ex2: Drangliec is described as a dead land, despite being ruled over by the Dark Soul. All of the other souls must be gathered in order rule the kingdom. The abyss which was an all encompassing blackness in DkS1, is nothing more than caverns in DkS2, and the abyss is known to be directly linked to humanity and the Dark Soul.
Lordran is Draeglic:
The land is timeless and forever. Every ending happens in the official story. New kingdoms rise and fall through eternity. It is separate from the rest of the world, but known to everyone.
Grave Warden Agdayne directly confirms that it is the same land. He even mentions how the "Curse of Humanity" was a silly thought believed by the ancients.
The Main Story - I'm going to go backwards, it is easier to explain.
Ruling as the Next Monarch:
The game flat out says that any decision you make will not matter, as no matter how you rule your power and the land will fade, only to rise anew in the future. You get no choice in the end as your choice won't matter in the long run.
Taking the thrown:
The undead must defeat the current rulers to become the next Monarch. This means revealing the Queen's secret which only the Giants and King Vendrick know. Once she is defeated you can rule the kingdom and it will become whatever you desire, whichever flame you prefer.
Facing the Giants of the Past:
This part of the game is handled terribly, but it represents the brutality the giants attacked with. They wanted Nashaandra to die for what they stole, but she had convinced Vendrick to defend his kingdom from them, using their souls to power Golems. When you are given the Giant's Kinship, you are assumed to know Nashaandra's true secret, that she is Manus reborn. You actually don't, but she reveals this to you in a typical badguy monologue.(so wrong for souls)
The Dragon's Part:
The Ashen Mist let's you see memories. The dragon has staged Nashaandra's downfall, but they want the undead to know her secret to lure her out and defeat her. They created the Emerald Herald to guide the undead in hope of rising a new monarch. The Dragon's act in a similar way to the gods of DkS1, the Emerald Herald act as the Primordial Serpent, guiding the player so that they become powerful and prove themselves to be great.
Confronting Vendrick:
When he found out Nashaandra's true identity, he could not take it and condemned himself to death. Yet as an undead he could not die and instead is locked away a hollow. The war he caused with the giants because of his blind trust in Nashaandra and all the death and ruin to his Kingdom it caused was too much guilt.
Becoming a Great Soul:
You are tasked with gathering the Ancient Souls of 4 beings. Who the souls originally belonged to is incredible, the Lost Sinner being controlled by some form of the Witch of Izilith, but story wise it's not important. The undead must grow powerful, either through conquering those ancient souls or by conquering many lesser souls. Once this is done the Shrine of Winter opens and leads them on to the path of rulership.
Entering Draeglic:
The Dragons, Emerald Herald, and Fire Keepers make natural allies. The land they live in needs to reborn yet again. They all benefit from keeping the abyss at bay and they all rely on the immortal undead to accomplish what they cannot. A soul that fights the urge to go hollow and returns time and time again to face the enemy is the only thing that can conquer Nashaandra, as it was proven in the past many times over.
The Prologue:
The undead loses his memories of family. Yet before he goes completely hollow he is given a mission. A mission to venture into an ever lasting ancient land. This mission rings out in their mind, as they lose their memory and continue to rise from the dead, they remember being told of the place where souls reside, where power and sanity can be found, and where turning hollow can be put off forever.
That's my take on the story.
Lots of other bits and pieces with the world in general, like which lands turned into what and where the great souls currently reside. Those topics are probably best for other posts though.
The Dark Soul setup:
The 4 flames are eternal and will manifest in different ways depending on the times.
- The Dark Soul - Manifests as humanity, is a constant within humans
- The Dead Soul - Manifests as death, all things die and wither away
- The Life Soul - Manifests as pure chaos, is represented in fire
- The Light Soul - Manifests as Order, is represented in miracles and monarchs.
Each of the original four Souls/Flames grows when it is suppressed and wanes when it is allowed to flourish. This creates a balance between all four.
Ex1: Gwyn needed to sacrifice himself and countless undead to continue his rule, the King's soul waned, but as others flurished he required them to be sacrificed to his own. Despite all of the undead who sacrificed themselves the flame was still fading.
Ex2: Drangliec is described as a dead land, despite being ruled over by the Dark Soul. All of the other souls must be gathered in order rule the kingdom. The abyss which was an all encompassing blackness in DkS1, is nothing more than caverns in DkS2, and the abyss is known to be directly linked to humanity and the Dark Soul.
Lordran is Draeglic:
The land is timeless and forever. Every ending happens in the official story. New kingdoms rise and fall through eternity. It is separate from the rest of the world, but known to everyone.
Grave Warden Agdayne directly confirms that it is the same land. He even mentions how the "Curse of Humanity" was a silly thought believed by the ancients.
The Main Story - I'm going to go backwards, it is easier to explain.
Ruling as the Next Monarch:
The game flat out says that any decision you make will not matter, as no matter how you rule your power and the land will fade, only to rise anew in the future. You get no choice in the end as your choice won't matter in the long run.
Taking the thrown:
The undead must defeat the current rulers to become the next Monarch. This means revealing the Queen's secret which only the Giants and King Vendrick know. Once she is defeated you can rule the kingdom and it will become whatever you desire, whichever flame you prefer.
Facing the Giants of the Past:
This part of the game is handled terribly, but it represents the brutality the giants attacked with. They wanted Nashaandra to die for what they stole, but she had convinced Vendrick to defend his kingdom from them, using their souls to power Golems. When you are given the Giant's Kinship, you are assumed to know Nashaandra's true secret, that she is Manus reborn. You actually don't, but she reveals this to you in a typical badguy monologue.(so wrong for souls)
The Dragon's Part:
The Ashen Mist let's you see memories. The dragon has staged Nashaandra's downfall, but they want the undead to know her secret to lure her out and defeat her. They created the Emerald Herald to guide the undead in hope of rising a new monarch. The Dragon's act in a similar way to the gods of DkS1, the Emerald Herald act as the Primordial Serpent, guiding the player so that they become powerful and prove themselves to be great.
Confronting Vendrick:
When he found out Nashaandra's true identity, he could not take it and condemned himself to death. Yet as an undead he could not die and instead is locked away a hollow. The war he caused with the giants because of his blind trust in Nashaandra and all the death and ruin to his Kingdom it caused was too much guilt.
Becoming a Great Soul:
You are tasked with gathering the Ancient Souls of 4 beings. Who the souls originally belonged to is incredible, the Lost Sinner being controlled by some form of the Witch of Izilith, but story wise it's not important. The undead must grow powerful, either through conquering those ancient souls or by conquering many lesser souls. Once this is done the Shrine of Winter opens and leads them on to the path of rulership.
Entering Draeglic:
The Dragons, Emerald Herald, and Fire Keepers make natural allies. The land they live in needs to reborn yet again. They all benefit from keeping the abyss at bay and they all rely on the immortal undead to accomplish what they cannot. A soul that fights the urge to go hollow and returns time and time again to face the enemy is the only thing that can conquer Nashaandra, as it was proven in the past many times over.
The Prologue:
The undead loses his memories of family. Yet before he goes completely hollow he is given a mission. A mission to venture into an ever lasting ancient land. This mission rings out in their mind, as they lose their memory and continue to rise from the dead, they remember being told of the place where souls reside, where power and sanity can be found, and where turning hollow can be put off forever.
That's my take on the story.
Lots of other bits and pieces with the world in general, like which lands turned into what and where the great souls currently reside. Those topics are probably best for other posts though.
Ash igloo? What if it's the ashes of the first flame itself? :O
It's almost 99% that is the case, but it has a door and inside is the Throne of Want.
For some reason it is similar to the place where Creighton is imprisoned by Pate. But I do not believe that Shanalotte tricked you like Pate did to Creighton? Could be.
Yeah, it's lame. Demon handled it better, by having Real King Allant give his monologue while you were fighting.
I think it is clear that Nashandra is not all powerful and could not have done things without you; if you go into the Throne of Want before getting the Giant Kinship, she won't be inside the room, and she will be waiting for you once you come back with the Kinship. If you go into the boss room for the first time with the Giant Kinship, she specifically comes through the door you came in after the Throne duo is dead. Implication: she cannot defeat the Throne Duo (and in fact, her final boss fight is easier than the Duo).
Similarly, she says that the Ancient Dragon is a prop "that offers nothing". Which to me it says that Nashandra made her way somehow (maybe before Aldia's Keep was sealed behind the King's Door) to the AD, and the AD did not give her the Ashen Mist Heart. But she did not try to kill the Dragon for it, cause the Dragon would wtfpwn her. Then again she probably does not even know the Ashen Mist Heart exists. edit: oh wait
When talking while the Ashen Mist Heart is in inventory
Seek the forest, you, where those wretched Giants slumber.
She prolly knows of the AMH, just didn't know where it is, or that the dragon had it, or was denied it by the AD
Kevin Shields
Member
Am I mistaken or does Navlaan call Emerald the last firekeeper? Does this lend any credence to the 4th firekeeper that sends us on our journey being a manifestation of her? Aren't there only 4 left in the world when we enter Drangleic? The more I think about the evidence we have points to Emerald being the old lady in the beginning.
I don't think the fourth lady is Shanalotte; Milibeth, the young lady who takes care of the three firekeepers says that long ago there were four firekeepers.
Probably the lady went for a walk and then Drangleic was cutoff with her outside.
I think Velstadt soul is also that color? Velstadt is def not on the side of Nashandra.
Unless you operate under the assumption that Nashandra was instrumental in locking Vendrick away for some reason. The story we're told is that Vendrick did it of his own accord. But Chancellor Wellager doesn't know what happened to him. Wouldn't he know that the King had left?
But Velstadt is guarding Vendrick who is "guarding" the king's ring, and having the King Doors closed doesn't serve Nashandra's interests.
Kevin Shields
Member
But there are 4 firekeepers total right and Emerald is the last firekeeper right? The 3 sisters say they lost the 4th one and then you have the "my manifestation sent you here" line. Something weird going on with Shanalotte. Also what is up with the shrine of winter paintings? There are robed men, a baby, and a dragon (albeit it is hard for me to see). Is this the story of Shanalotte?
I am waiting for the PC version to make sense of those pictures.
I think I see Seath in one of them. e: or more like the ancient dragon?
Ok let's give it a try.
From left to right you see: Four people, one seemingly a bald men. One must be a little kid.
Then a Dragon flying, and a man stealing an egg in the botton?
The same dragon flying again, but now there is a man on the bottom doing nothing
Lastly, other group of four people; they mostly look the same but the kid may have grown?
Don't see much support into the old lady from the intro being Shanalotte too; unless you can spy a cross on her chest, or notice some defining facial characteristic.
Kevin Shields
Member
Nice, that is relatively what I saw. That has to be dealing with Shanalotte right? There are statues and images of babies a lot and the connection to dragons and dragons age seems to fit her story well. I think that is one bit of lore that will help us out in the future once the tablets can be seen in higher resolution.
Well, like I said it may have something to do with hollowing, especially with how powerful they are versus the random scrubs you face.
Kevin Shields
Member
Does the map in the basement of majula and the placement of the flames tell us anything interesting lore wise?
Only 8 bonfires make it work so that's something I suppose.
Kevin Shields
Member
Those are 4 primal bonfires and which other ones? Does their placement on the map make sense?
Well there placement matches to their map location more or less:
As for the require bonfires:
- Forest of the fallen Giants Cardinal tower
- Sinners rise
- Iron keep Eygils idol
- Lower brightstone cove
- Black gulch Hidden chamber
- Dranlgleic castle Kings gate
- Undead crypt Undead ditch
- Dragon shrine
Kevin Shields
Member
Never saw that, pretty cool... I just now saw the broken shards in the bottom of Majula and definitely think that has to be the Lordvessel. So I would think that was not the prize Vendrick stole from the Giants
Kevin Shields
Member
Do you have a pic? Not at home right now to check it out, but that sounds intriguing. Is it a generic symbol or does it have some detail?
No I meant, which one corresponded to which point in the map.
It's a somewhat generic symbol, but the detail is so low. This is a loooong post.
Ok took some low quality pictures with my phone, which I then rescaled to lose even more detail (and not have to upload 2.5MB photos).
The door in Shrine of Winter. Do note the circle in the superior half, and the six small symbols below it.
Here are the six symbols; three of them at least, they are symmetrical laterally.
I can only recognize the middle one; there is a shield in the game that is shaped like that, the black dragon shield
Dunno what's on the bottom.
the top figure seems to be some kind of animal.
The central circle in the figure; divided in twelve parts, each part has a symbol drawn in it. It's hard to make out here, I used a torch later
Inside the Shrine. There is a ... cauldron (Lordvessel?) with three serpents surrounding it. The serpents have no heads. I think they were sculpted like that.
The four images. The first one on the left (remember that it's possible japan assumed this would be read on the other direction) shows four persons, one of them a kid, one of them a bald guy.
The top half of that engraving contains the symbol I mentioned. Is it the same symbol drawn in the door?
A tutorial plaque in Things Betwixt.
Second image
The bottom of the second image. I think the little guy is replacing an egg, may be wrong.
Detail on the guy replacing the egg.
Third image. Do note the...guard? on the bottom left.
Detail on the guard.
Fourth image. At least three of the four people from the first image are here, and they are sad. Don't know if the little kid is back.
The door to the firekeepers house (which is a tall tree) had a round symbol taken away from it. The other door is the same, and the interior of the doors are the same.
Was the symbol on the firekeeper doors the same symbol on each inscription/tutorial plaque?
Kevin Shields
Member
Nice work, so much room for speculation. I really want to know what those murals are describing. They seem to tell an important story. I also noticed for the first time that teh firekeepers where on the bottom of a giant tree... Does that connect at all to the tree with the fireflies? Probably not but an interesting image...
I also went and took photos of the ...gazebo? you fall into
The initial floor engraving you fall into (you are shown standing up from it) has a reflective circle in the center.
Gazebo in full glory. Do note the columns that have no detail on them.
The ruins under Castle Drangleic, complete with our pal Darkdiver Grandahl. I had beaten the darklurker and the portal remains activated even if you abandon the covenant. Had to go grab a diff character for this.
It's interesting to note that there are two rows of columns unlike the Gazebo and the Shrine of Winter.
Detail on the columns of the portals of the Pilgrims of Dark. Lots of people together forming the column. Creepy.
This is a column from the shrine of winter. It's not exactly the same, but it also has the creepy "bodies forming the column" theme to it.
The portal in shaded woods. Note the third row of columns.
The center of the portal. There is no reflective circle, just a flat surface.
I think my theory of the Pilgrims' portal being the similar as the starting gazebo stands, but it is obvious that they serve different purposes/have diff mechanisms, one to connect the outside world to Drangleic, the other to connect Drangleic to the Abyss.
Also, it's interesting that the Shrine of Winter has similarities to the portals of the Pilgrims too.
The initial floor engraving you fall into (you are shown standing up from it) has a reflective circle in the center.
Gazebo in full glory. Do note the columns that have no detail on them.
The ruins under Castle Drangleic, complete with our pal Darkdiver Grandahl. I had beaten the darklurker and the portal remains activated even if you abandon the covenant. Had to go grab a diff character for this.
It's interesting to note that there are two rows of columns unlike the Gazebo and the Shrine of Winter.
Detail on the columns of the portals of the Pilgrims of Dark. Lots of people together forming the column. Creepy.
This is a column from the shrine of winter. It's not exactly the same, but it also has the creepy "bodies forming the column" theme to it.
The portal in shaded woods. Note the third row of columns.
The center of the portal. There is no reflective circle, just a flat surface.
I think my theory of the Pilgrims' portal being the similar as the starting gazebo stands, but it is obvious that they serve different purposes/have diff mechanisms, one to connect the outside world to Drangleic, the other to connect Drangleic to the Abyss.
Also, it's interesting that the Shrine of Winter has similarities to the portals of the Pilgrims too.
I also went and watched the intro. No photos here.
The arch you walk through in the intro has a super similar style, if not the same, to the archs in the ruins in Majula. It's cool that the arch has a door in it, but only in the reflection on the water.
The headless serpents in Shrine of Winter tell me the reason the primordial serpents don't appear in this game. Someone killed them. And that someone is more probably Vendrick himself, since the statue is in the Shrine that survived his era mostly intact (and that have messages pertaining to his era, it seems).
What must have happened is that Vendrick beat Gwyn/whoever had the soul of Gwyn and was linking the flame in that era, and then walked out of the kiln. Then the serpents came to proclaim him Dark Lord, and Vendrick killed the serpents then. It's weird they are not mentioned AT ALL in the game other than the decapitated serpents in the Shrine of Winter.
The arch you walk through in the intro has a super similar style, if not the same, to the archs in the ruins in Majula. It's cool that the arch has a door in it, but only in the reflection on the water.
The headless serpents in Shrine of Winter tell me the reason the primordial serpents don't appear in this game. Someone killed them. And that someone is more probably Vendrick himself, since the statue is in the Shrine that survived his era mostly intact (and that have messages pertaining to his era, it seems).
What must have happened is that Vendrick beat Gwyn/whoever had the soul of Gwyn and was linking the flame in that era, and then walked out of the kiln. Then the serpents came to proclaim him Dark Lord, and Vendrick killed the serpents then. It's weird they are not mentioned AT ALL in the game other than the decapitated serpents in the Shrine of Winter.
theSlacker
Member
Something else I'm interested in; the floor of the lost sinner boss room. It has writing all over it that seems low res. I'm sure it is just random stuff to add flavor to the room, but it may have a purpose.
5 and 7 are the only two that are an issue. 5 I've assumed to be directly under Majula and 7 well that's the only place I can think it is.
Oh super cool, Stormtrooper.
Will go later and check the floor on Lost Sinner.
Will also give a search in Things Betwixt to see if whatever was on the firekeepers' doors is somewhere.
I think Black Gulch is right. That'd mean that Majula is to the west, and that what you are seeing is the sunset.
I also have an issue with Sinner's Rise. You'd think that'd be a separate island. Dunno if you can see sea in all directions in Lost Bastille.
The map also shows the Shrine of Winter and Earthen Peak, but not Aldia's.
Will go later and check the floor on Lost Sinner.
Will also give a search in Things Betwixt to see if whatever was on the firekeepers' doors is somewhere.
I think Black Gulch is right. That'd mean that Majula is to the west, and that what you are seeing is the sunset.
I also have an issue with Sinner's Rise. You'd think that'd be a separate island. Dunno if you can see sea in all directions in Lost Bastille.
The map also shows the Shrine of Winter and Earthen Peak, but not Aldia's.
I think the map isn't really that important. We've got several areas that are on different planes, with the Dragon Aerie being way above the normal continent and the Gutter areas way underneath. Even Brightstone Cove has more vertical movement. That whole area basically stacks on top of itself.
I'm still most interested in Nashandra's motivations and what Vendrick's goal was. I think there's a couple interpretations possible.
I'm still most interested in Nashandra's motivations and what Vendrick's goal was. I think there's a couple interpretations possible.
Things Betwixt is interesting because, while obviously underground, also has stone columns rising into the sky, similar to what you see at the end of Aldia's before rising to the Aerie.
The skybox in Things Betwixt, when you look from the Gazebo, in the opposite direction of the Firekeepers' house.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Regardless of the ancient dragon being fake, I suspect a big clue is in his phrase "the curse of life is the curse of want". Obviously, being alive you have desire, you want things, and this is framed as a curse.
If Nashandra is the smallest fragment of Manus and has a mental complex due to it, one idea is that she could desire to end life in order to end the ability to want anything. Essentially she wants her discomfort to cease and that requires all reality being consumed by the abyss.
I wonder if the curse of the undead itself is in some way related to all this - the undead cannot truly die, they go hollow when they lose all hope (and stop wanting things, incidentally), and they are fed by greedily consuming the essence of all things. As if the undead curse is itself an extension of the wanting of humanity.
One thing I've noticed is that according to that map the only place no man's wharf could be is further along the coast by that boat and anchor. So scales is all out of proportion according to the distance traveled in game.