I think he was great except against Giant Lord, he would just get crushed against the statue head all the time. I made him survive the fight by rushing into the gate before he got summoned so I could beat the Giant Lord without him ever entering the fog.
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The Dark Souls II Lore Thread of speculations, spoilers and headaches
- Thread starter SargerusBR
- Start date
I think he was great except against Giant Lord, he would just get crushed against the statue head all the time. I made him survive the fight by rushing into the gate before he got summoned so I could beat the Giant Lord without him ever entering the fog.
Not really. Even after patch 1.03, his defense is still pretty weak. It's no where near as impressive as Luca's increased defense. He almost died in every boss fight except for Magus. It was literally a sliver of life left. I was lucky neither the LG Knight and Giant Lord killed him. I managed to kill them before they had a chance to kill him.
I got his equipment so I didn't need him for the Throne Watcher/Defender fight. Bet he would've died there.
Is it confirmed that Creighton is a serial killer? I'm more inclined to believe that isn't the real Creighton based on the item description of them being all replicas. So then who is Creighton if he's just a fraud?
I think he is. I think the replicas were based on a certain type of armor from another region. I forget which one but there is a set that has a similar design for the chest. Cale did mention that Creighton is just "knight" in name only. So I guess he likes to pretend to be a knight to kill people.
I think hollowing hasn't set in yet for him. Carhillion was pretty clear too while his pupil was already losing her memory.
Kevin Shields
Member
So biggest questions for me that have probably been asked but I want more speculation!
1. Why he heck was a portal the only way to get to Drangleic and what the heck were the fireflies and the skeletons in the beginning of the game?? Something weird going on there that don't seem to have any answers. That opening sequence has to play into the Lordran discussions.
2. Who is the fourth fire keeper and what is significance. Lady emerald?
3. Maybe it's just me but I have seen constant themes and statues of mother and baby. Is my chosen undead child of Nashandra?? What is that all about?
1. Why he heck was a portal the only way to get to Drangleic and what the heck were the fireflies and the skeletons in the beginning of the game?? Something weird going on there that don't seem to have any answers. That opening sequence has to play into the Lordran discussions.
2. Who is the fourth fire keeper and what is significance. Lady emerald?
3. Maybe it's just me but I have seen constant themes and statues of mother and baby. Is my chosen undead child of Nashandra?? What is that all about?
Portal is weird because the intro also mentions that Drangleic is in a "walled off land", but it is obvious the giants came from beyond the ocean to Drangleic, and there are people from outside Drangleic, like Carhillion and Rosabeth (but Rosabeth mentions coming through the mountains so maybe she comes from another part of the island that contains Drangleic).
My guess is that, after all the Vendrick adventures with the giants and the Xth rebirth of the curse, the rest of the world decided to seal the whole area (probably Drangleic AND the giants island) behind some magic.
Which brings us to the fourth firekeeper. She is outside Drangleic doing the good work of sending the hollows to Drangleic, to keep the curse as contained as possible. She is definitely not Emerald.
I think what happened is that Vendrick didn't want to link the first flame and thus the Firekeepers were literally out of a job. That's why Emerald was created, to keep the bonfires running artificially.
Some people say that the painting of Nashandra that curses you shows a Nashandra in the early stages of pregnancy.
Don't think the player character is Nashandra's and Vendrick's kid, tho. It would conflict with the major theme of the series of the chosen undead to be some random dude. Don't see any obvious candidate to be such a child so I think this is a moot point.
Well it lets you continue to Drangleic Castle without having to climb those rocks. That debris looks almost as tall as you, it'd be impossible to climb! Seriously, the Shrine of Winter should just have been where the debris is and it would have been way less silly.
SoW is really interesting. I think it represents the Lordvessel (yes, I know about Majula Mansion). It serves the same purpose, works the same way and has some serpents sculpted inside. So basically, like the old Lordvessel, it was needed to block access to the king.
More interesting are the paintings of the interior. I don't have an explanation for them, mostly cause I don't really have a good picture of them. I think one of them is Seath and the other shows the creation of the Ancient Dragon. Could be super wrong on this. It'd be a great boon if we could get our grubby hands on some high def captures of those four walls. Maybe once the PC version comes out.
Another interesting show of lore is just before Looking Glass Knight, where there is an engraving of a giant tree, and afterwards the LGK you go under some branches/roots, so I guess that is the Ash Lake or equivalent.
Idea I just had:
You know the red eyeball effect you get at some bosses? Here's what I think that is: Anger at recognizing you from prior battles.
So why does the Last Giant remember you?
Because you will have defeated him in the past. It's a time travel story. No one in the game remembers who defeated the Giant Lord, in game text refers to a mysterious stranger. Spoiler alert: it's you.
Therefore the Last Giant (who is the Giant Lord) remembers you from the beating that you will do much later in your timeline, but actually happened in the past.
Note: You DON'T get the red eyeball effect on Mytha or the Covetous Demon and others; i.e. those demons who have no reason to know you already.
You know the red eyeball effect you get at some bosses? Here's what I think that is: Anger at recognizing you from prior battles.
- Lost Sinner
- Iron King
- The Rotten
- Duke's Dear Freya
So why does the Last Giant remember you?
Because you will have defeated him in the past. It's a time travel story. No one in the game remembers who defeated the Giant Lord, in game text refers to a mysterious stranger. Spoiler alert: it's you.
Therefore the Last Giant (who is the Giant Lord) remembers you from the beating that you will do much later in your timeline, but actually happened in the past.
Note: You DON'T get the red eyeball effect on Mytha or the Covetous Demon and others; i.e. those demons who have no reason to know you already.
That's a good theory but you aren't supposed to be the same character from dark souls 1.
However I must point out that other bosses have the red eye thing too, notably, Executioneer Chariot
You are onto something though. Last Giant being the Giant King could explain the red eye, but remember that happens for random bosses too.
However I must point out that other bosses have the red eye thing too, notably, Executioneer Chariot
You are onto something though. Last Giant being the Giant King could explain the red eye, but remember that happens for random bosses too.
SeventhSon
Member
Dont all bosses with a cutscene have the Gears of War damage jelly?
NoirVisage
Banned
not trolling, being honest, dude asked an honest question, you straight called him out based on his ignorance, then backdoor with your own ignorance. fair is fair.
??? haven't played more than a half hour of gears co-op
Yeah I guess so. Especially regarding the bolded: Chariot has no reason to know you.
This is a reach: but maybe the Executioner Chariot just hates all undead? After all, it did take part in the undead hunts.
I think it just happens for every boss in the end of a "sequence". It happens for the four guys with big souls as they are the end of their progression lines, and Executioneer is a dead end after the fork that is huntsman copse. Also happens for Velstadt, but not for Looking Glass Knight or Demon or Song. Doesn't happen for Vendrick or Ancient Dragon because they are optional? And Giant King is not on a room by himself. However the logic of being "a dead end" would mean the Gargoyles get a red eye FMV too, but that doesn't happen. Neither for Dark Lurker. Dunno.
edit: Pursuer too. Ah fuck it, it's just random.
I think it happens when Nashandra appears for the final fight. Can't remember if either Nashandra intro has the red eye thing or it's just a regular FMV.
edit about Emerald and the fourth Firekeeper.
Maybe it is not that simple. When you find Emerald Herald in the Dragon Aerie she says
"Bearer of the curse, long have I waited one such as you one who might shatter the shackles of fate, one who might set me free."
"Bearer of the curse it was my own manifestation that has led you here."
Of course there is the issue of the voice actor for Shanalotte (child) and in the aerie she does have a younger sounding voice (although I'd say it is the same actress). Other people have pointed that Shanalotte in the Aerie looks younger AND shorter. Strangely, she doesn't look like that even in her final appearance in the way to the throne of want.
It could mean that the Emerald in Majula and everywhere else is a spirit and the Aerie one is the real one.
OR it may be that the old fourth firekeeper is "a manifestation" of Shanalotte that for some reason looks as the old ladies in Things Betwixt. Maybe the experiment was grabbing one of the four old firekeepers, give her to the ancient dragon and the AD did some magic and went dunno lol and we got Shanalotte.
Will take any similarity between the old woman in the intro and Shanalotte as supporting this, but I feel I may be reaching.
edit: Pursuer too. Ah fuck it, it's just random.
I think it happens when Nashandra appears for the final fight. Can't remember if either Nashandra intro has the red eye thing or it's just a regular FMV.
edit about Emerald and the fourth Firekeeper.
Maybe it is not that simple. When you find Emerald Herald in the Dragon Aerie she says
"Bearer of the curse, long have I waited one such as you one who might shatter the shackles of fate, one who might set me free."
"Bearer of the curse it was my own manifestation that has led you here."
Of course there is the issue of the voice actor for Shanalotte (child) and in the aerie she does have a younger sounding voice (although I'd say it is the same actress). Other people have pointed that Shanalotte in the Aerie looks younger AND shorter. Strangely, she doesn't look like that even in her final appearance in the way to the throne of want.
It could mean that the Emerald in Majula and everywhere else is a spirit and the Aerie one is the real one.
OR it may be that the old fourth firekeeper is "a manifestation" of Shanalotte that for some reason looks as the old ladies in Things Betwixt. Maybe the experiment was grabbing one of the four old firekeepers, give her to the ancient dragon and the AD did some magic and went dunno lol and we got Shanalotte.
Will take any similarity between the old woman in the intro and Shanalotte as supporting this, but I feel I may be reaching.
Kevin Shields
Member
That's what I was thinking about Emerald. She may be the fourth firekeeper. It would be weird to have that awesome scene with the old lady, where she seems to have more insight then she lets on, to not take a larger part of the story.
ON the earlier point you made about the chosen undead being the son of Nashandra, isnt there a statue in Ruined Fork (Shaded Woods) bonfire of a women with a baby? There is also the opening scene of a woman and a baby being melted away... You don't think there is any connection there??
I actually don't.
For starters, the statues aren't in any place related to Nashandra. Yeah, you can argue that Nashandra references could be everywhere in Drangleic, but remember that in DS1, the Gwyn/Gwynevere statues were only in Anor Londo. The first born had a statue in Undead Burg but that's it. Shaded Woods seems to be more related to Oolacille / Seath so I am gonna say that statue is just...a random statue of a woman and a child. Or Dusk and Priscilla?
Does anybody remember the description of the bonfire in Ruined Fork Road? Can't find it.
The woman and the baby of the beginning are supposed to represent the family of the main character. I do not think that is Nashandra, and it'd mean that either the main character was married to Nashandra in the outside world, or, if you take the Nashandra-as-mother-of-the-main-char side, means the main character remembers his mother as he was raised, which is just weird.
Also the statue would be weird. I don't think a statue of Nashandra and the main character would decay so much as it is shown in the ruined fork.
Kevin Shields
Member
Makes sense, I'm going to look into it more. So I watched the opening scene again, and yes it could be interpreted as the undead's family, but is there any evidence that it cannot be interpreted as something else? We never hear anything about his wife and only child. It is just a weird scene where it shows his family but gives us no other background information, but of course that would be normal for a Souls game.
Also why watching the scene I caught the statement where the firekeeper lady says long ago in a walled off land. So that means the place where the undead is coming from is the future and the portal goes back in time?? Or is it only long ago the kingdom was built and you are entering it as it currently exists?
i assume Straid is. He was petrified a long time ago so he probably avoided hollowing.
Oh god I wish I knew why the old woman says a "walled off land". Time travel is not out of the question. However, the old woman looks as old as the Things Betwixt old ladies so if you time travelled, you didn't time travel that much.
Right now I am more interested on whether the old lady in the intro is "the manifestation" of Shanalotte, so I'd welcome any detail that could link old lady and emerald herald. The color is all wrong for starters. Maybe the old lady has a malta cross in the chest or somewhere? Cannot check right now.
I think that family is the simplest explanation for the woman and the baby in the intro. It's kind of lame that it paints the main character as a man (both because of it looking like a regular family, and because when the curse mark is shown, the torso looks masculine. I guess that's why they added the sex changing coffin at the start), because I like more the idea of the chosen undead to be literally anyone.
We never heard anything about it because the player long ago forgot about them. He was attracted to Drangleic, probably to find a curse cure, but instead was roped into sitting on the throne.
Yeah, but Felkin strikes me as a crazio who is hollow and probably thinks he is not hollowed. Maybe his relationship to the dark has kept the curse at bay, but just a little.
Darkdiver Grandahl instead, looks p rational so I guess all his dark diving has kept him sane.
Straid knows of the curse, he may or may not be hollowed.
Metalingus5150
Member
When Shanalotte talked about her manifestation, I just assumed the one in Majula was the manifestation and the one you meet later on is the real Shanalotte.
Straid was tricked into going in that cell and then was petrified. It was an intentional trap because other Olaphis dudes feared him.
It does not follow that Lost Bastille was a hollow prison back then, or that Straid is hollow himself. Then again, maybe his mask covers his eyes for a reason. Also his obsession with getting souls may mean he needs them to feed, like a hollow.
This is surely the simplest explanation.
Well wait. If you kill Shanalotte at Majula is she gone from the other areas? Also if she was a manifestation why doesn't she respawn?
Because gameplay I guess.
It could very well happen the manifestation is a flesh and blood body too.
Dunno what happens if you kill Shanalotte in the Aerie, though. I don't want to throw a 30 hours game to the trash maybe.
Kevin Shields
Member
I probably missed this somewhere, but is there any significance we know of about the tree with the fireflies in the opening scene?? Can we say anything about the land that the undead is coming from based on the tree?
theSlacker
Member
Or maybe she was just saying that she led you there in a roundabout way. The way that they just spout off random stuff at the end about linking the flame and what not makes me think that they didn't put the same amount of thought into the background story of the game, and just used whatever sounded mysterious.
The fireflies are probably a japanese thing about dead people.
http://sugoiinu.wordpress.com/2012/...firefly-what-is-its-role-in-japanese-culture/
Comfort Jones
Banned
Except one is a much smaller detail no one has actually provided proof that I'm wrong on yet (since when the fuck do Silver Knights use estus? I have like 300-400 hours in that game and I've never seen it) and one is a bunch of really major plot points.
Your idea of fair is absurd.
Kevin Shields
Member
Hmm, interesting. Do you think that tells us anything about the place where the undead jumps into the portal? Is it a "graveyard" of sorts?
It is some kind of ruins. Some people have said it looks like Iron Keep, but I do not see it.
To me it looks like a door that leads nowhere, except that a whirpool opens and you fall and appear in Things Betwitxt.
Imho what happened is that that place was a road that led to Drangleic, and when Drangleic was "walled off" the place was cut off from the rest of the world, and the ruins with the fireflies are the only part that remained because they were just outside from the rest of the kingdom that was cut off. Do not think it is necessarily a graveyard (it could be, tho) or any other special place, just a part of Drangleic that happened to be just outside the limit of whatever "wall" was erected around Drangleic (maybe even before Drangleic was called that). My point is that it's not important what that place was, but where it was.
Things Betwixt is underground, and you appear at the border of it, just like if it was cut off from the world and TB was just in the border of the cutoff.
One thing to notice is that you appear in Drangleic exactly in the middle of a little round construction. It looks a lot like the portals where Darkdiver Grandahl sends you to the abyss (except the ones grandahl uses don't have the ceiling). So I think that the whirpool is the other end of a portal, like the Pilgrims of the Dark use, except in the reverse way. Instead of sending you further into the dark, the portal in things betwixt sucks you in from the outside world.
HOWEVER at the end of each old abyss dungeon of the Pilgrims of the Dark, you have to jump into a chasm, and appear back in the portal, just like in the beginning of the game. While the portals the Pilgrims use don't have the ceiling the Things Betwixt one has, each one is still underground, so there is nothing above you to fall from. What the game is telling you is that jumping into these dark chasms makes you appear into these portals, validating the intro FMV as consistent.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Well, both him and the pyro teacher were petrified in areas where petrification monsters (the mummies, the basilisk) hang out... I don't think there's anything more to it than that, haha.
33-Hit-Combo
Member
Guys, all this this Lordran/Drangleic talk, it's not about how they got there and what the place is, it's about the character's stories #Lost
Red Liquorice
Member
Is the Scorpion ladies room anywhere significant to DS1? Just whilst there I was looking at the half-covered architecture like the steps and wondered if it was tied to a Lordran location?
There's some other places that seem familiar too, I forget where but there's some stone arches in places that reminded me of the Demon Ruins.
There's some other places that seem familiar too, I forget where but there's some stone arches in places that reminded me of the Demon Ruins.
thewhitehawk
Member
I got some huge Painted World vibes after the Mirror Knight. I don't know if the Painted World was based upon any real area, but if it was, I think that Drangleic Castle was built in the same location.
Kevin Shields
Member
Just finished the game last night. Was wondering about why The Emerald said that taking the throne would set her free... Actually the whole ending was kind of confusing. Is there a link to an in depth rundown of the story and all the characters involved?? Awesome last couple levels btw.
Yeah the ending is ... something.
Don't have a link for you.
My take on the ending is this; Vendrick collected all the big souls (and a giant soul) and became powerful, but refused to link the fire. This caused the curse to come back / become worse. To stop that, Vendrick and Aldia tried to create an uber firekeeper who would take Vendrick's place in the first flame, thus Shanalotte. Something came out wrong and Shanalotte could not carry the burden of the first flame, thus needing another chosen undead to take the place of Vendrick.
Nashandra on the other hand wants the first flame (probably to extinguish it once and for all?). That's why accessing the throne of want is so complicated. Vendrick and Aldia made sure the entry to it was guarded by a triple layer of protection, namely Vendrick's ring to open the door, the giant kinship, hidden in the memories of giants, and the access to said memories guarded by the super powerful Ancient Dragon, who only gives the Ashen Mist to someone who Shanalotte trusts. Shanalotte is not a complete failure, since she is entrusted with the search for a powerful undead to take the place of Vendrick.
It's interesting to note that Shanalotte does not seem to know that the Ancient Dragon is a fake.
Kevin Shields
Member
Dang, not sure how you get all that but its interesting and makes sense. So did Vendrick sit on teh Throne of Want or was that Nashandras thing?? And it is pretty set in stone that the Ancient Dragon is a fake?? So when I went into the Dragon's memory, I saw the real ancient dragon in a time when the Dragons reigned, before the fire was kindled (amazing scene_?
Metalingus5150
Member
Nashandra says Vendrick never sat on the throne. Dark Souls 2 kind of changes a little how the first flame works. DS1 implied that Gwyn burning on the first preserved Anor Londo, and that you burning in it would preserve it even further and repel the undead curse for a while.
DS2 seems to show that whoever links the flame molds the kingdom to his liking, this is why the kingdom changed names and geographical shape so many times, and why the undead curse disappeared and came back from time to time. This all means that Vendrick built his kingdom without using the first flame, after taking all the primal souls for himself. Sometimes it is said that Vendrick looked into the soul and made a discovery or something. Chances are the discovery is that burning in the first flame would only change Drangleic further and repel the curse for just a little while and thus he decided not to do it, and eventually fell to the curse himself.
Most people accept the Ancient Dragon is a fake, yeah. Not only he drops a Giant Soul when killed, you can travel to a memory and find a moribund Ancient Dragon and receive his real soul. I assume this is from when Gwyn and his pals exterminated the dragons. There are a bunch of people saying that the AD is Vendrick's brother, Aldia, who is no where to be found. I do not think this is necessarily the case, but we have almost no clues for Aldia's location so...
There are arguments both ways. I personally believe Aldia is Duke Tseldora, who, like Vendrick, abandoned his mortal body, but instead fused with his beloved Freja (do notice that Freja has two heads, and that Freja drops her own soul and a weird thing in the floor, and that only when you touch that thing in the floor the game shows the message BIG SOUL EMBRACED. This is different from the other three big souls). That's why in NG+ Freja drops the Paledrake Soul. The duke that fused with her owned it, and Seath was a figure interested in creating weird creatures, and investigation, just like Aldia, and was the right hand and confident of Gwyn, just like Aldia and Vendrick were for a while.
Kevin Shields
Member
Dang, I'm loving this game more and more. Something else that struck me was how Vendrick was walled off in the Undead Crypt guarding the King's Ring. It seems he wants to keep it away from Nashandra and for some reason, maybe because she can't pass the shrine with those hot chicks singing, that he knew he could keep it from her. So pretty much no one has sat on the Throne of Want to link the fire, but Nashandra wants access to destroy it (because she wants dark??)? And Vendrick wants to stop Nashandra, so he guards the ring to get to teh ashen mist, to get to the giant soul, which will allow access to the throne of want...
Still piecing it together, damn this game's lore is actually pretty awesome. So many puzzles.
Hollow Vendrick walking around with his giant sword behind is the most haunting image of the game for me.
IMHO what happened is that Vendrick knew the curse would take him and decided to go into the crypt to guard the ring himself; in the way he went full hollow (we know where this happened, behind the door that contains his soul and armor in the Shrine of Amana), and Velstadt had to perform his lord's final duty instead. Vendrick was supposed to protect the ring, but he is too far gone to notice you walking under him and taking it.