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[Steve Youngblood]

Please point to children's game that are focused on the issue of gender, that 'allow" LGBT relationships. When someone goes looking for a children's game, they shouldn't have to expect to explain anything that's not a math problem.

I don't think that the approach of justifying that homosexual relationships and child-raising necessitates an explanation to children is very compelling. This is something that's happening out there in the world right now. Your child may very well go to school with another child being raised by two moms or two dads. The fact that this slightly complicates the "well, you see son/daughter, when a mommy and daddy love each other..." story we tell kids in regards to where babies come from doesn't mean that it's necessary to ignore that this is indeed happening right now to real families in the real world. And acknowledging that it occurs isn't shoving any values down anyone's throats.

 

[Waylon Drums]

Please point to children's game that are focused on the issue of gender, that 'allow" LGBT relationships. When someone goes looking for a children's game, they shouldn't have to expect to explain anything that's not a math problem.

That's your expectation. Unfortunately, you'd rather live in a world that makes decisions for you as a parent rather than educate yourself and make them on your own. Believe it or not, there are people out there who want their kids to know about the world and who would gladly have their children play a game that included gay characters.

We've now sufficiently moved away from the topic, so I'll be ending this exchange. Do, however, continue to explore the topic and it is my hope that you will come away from it more enlightened.

 

[AdmiralMikey]

Nintendo prides themselves on making games that are whimsical and gay... just not THAT kind of gay!

 

[kirblar]

Hard to believe someone actually thinks old people dying off so the "liberal young" can replace them is a "helpful thing". Not realizing that quite a few people who may have started out as activist or progressive in their youth tend to become more conservative with age as they as gain life experience, wisdom, etc.

True, there is also the opposite. My father started out as a Reagan Conservative in his youth and has now become for the most part a socialist who listens to NPR. However, I don't think it can be argued that the opposite transition is much more common. So saying that old people dying off is helpful and will therefore result in everyone becoming similar in their liberal political views is just a a little bit naive, and I daresay offensive to older folks. Young people never seem to think their views might change as they age, I guess. I wonder if my father also thought he'd stay conservative.

Sorry, this is a little off topic, but this particular post bothered me.

It's because there's a generation-wide paradigm shift in how the issue is perceived. This isn't an young liberal vs old conservative thing. It's a "young people don't see this issue the same way" thing that cuts across political axes. The younger GOP is more "liberal" on this issue as well.

 

[kittens]

Kris Ligman is my hero today, yall.

 

[Labrys]

I never said that anyone was obligated to buy the game but I don't think a boycott would work well. Corporate would still dismiss the low sales due to its niche status.

What other "niche" titles does Nintendo have that could be localized? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Maybe this game bombing would show them the error of them being incredibly heterocentric and noninclusive. And I don't even want to hear the whole change the mii gender thing, I shouldn't have to essentially misgender/crossdress a mii for it to represent a real person.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It's because there's a generation-wide paradigm shift in how the issue is perceived. This isn't an young liberal vs old conservative thing. It's a "young people don't see this issue the same way" thing that cuts across political axes. The younger GOP is more "liberal" on this issue as well.

You are saying that like the difference is that huge.

 

[SuperBowser]

i forgot how ridiculous nintendo's non-answers were till this article. reminds me of the n64 days.

i think it would be more acceptable for nintendo to say it was an oversight and it is too late to make the necessary changes for this game (even if it's a lie) than instead of the useless non-answer they gave.

 

[atr0cious]

So the problem of complaining about it is?

Or there is a problem that a Corp does something positive even for cynical reasons? (because politics more often than not work in that way)

What are you talking about? I was responding to someone who was saying that all these other coproations 'support' LGBT communities. I was saying, them giving to charities in no way put them in the line of fire of the public's views like Tomadotchi Life will for Nintendo. All they will get is some quick headline and that's it. I'm saying, that corporations that speak out, have been told by bean counters that mathematically safe to do so, especially since, 'liberal' thinking is in the minority, as much as we would hope other wise.

If Nintendo puts in gay marriage now, they will be heralded for putting gay marriage in the game, which will beg the question why it wasn't in there, when Nintendo is trying to get everyone to realize there was never a question to begin with. They wanted a streetpass mechanic, and built around that. But detractors are pretty much asking them to put in a straight or gay button, which they aren't trying to do. You can put genders in opposite roles for the mechanics to work, there is just no strict label that says this mii is gay.

 

[Marcel]

Kris Ligman is my hero today, yall.

Kris Ligman, Zoe Q., Christine Love are heroes everyday.

 

[kittens]

Kris Ligman, Zoe Q., Christine Love are heroes everyday.

Truth.

 

[Zee-Row]

I believe in Gay marriage and believe anybody should get married. But this is just a game , i think people are blowing this issue way out of proportion.

 

[Conezays]

So the end result is negative publicity towards Nintendo and the unlikely chance we see a sequel here again.

 

[poorlonelycomputer]

I was gonna respond but the rampant straight privilege in this thread is making my blood boil. And I say that as a straight dude.

 

[Labrys]

So the end result is negative publicity towards Nintendo and the unlikely chance we see a sequel here again.

Good. If they're gonna keep the same "whimsical" relationship system I'd rather it not leave Japan, or even get made in the first place.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

What are you talking about? I was responding to someone who was saying that all these other coproations 'support' LGBT communities. I was saying, them giving to charities in no way put them in the line of fire of the public's views like Tomadotchi Life will for Nintendo. All they will get is some quick headline and that's it. I'm saying, that corporations that speak out, have been told by bean counters that mathematically safe to do so, especially since, 'liberal' thinking is in the minority, as much as we would hope other wise.

If Nintendo puts in gay marriage now, they will be heralded for putting gay marriage in the game, which will beg the question why it wasn't in there, when Nintendo is trying to get everyone to realize there was never a question to begin with. They wanted a streetpass mechanic, and built around that. But detractors are pretty much asking them to put in a straight or gay button, which they aren't trying to do. You can put genders in opposite roles for the mechanics to work, there is just no strict label that says this mii is gay.

If they will not be in the line of fire... Why they don't do it? Not in this game, but in the other... whats up with that "Magical and whimsical" BS anwser?

 

[Waylon Drums]

So the end result is negative publicity towards Nintendo and the unlikely chance we see a sequel here again.

You'll have to get over the fact that there won't be a sequel if it comes to that. I'm not going to shut up about this because people are scared Nintendo won't release more games.

 

[Holmes]

I believe in Gay marriage and believe anybody should get married. But this is just a game , i think people are blowing this issue way out of proportion.

The issue is about representation. You can count the amount of games.that have (non-comedic/stereotypical) gay characters in it off the top of your hands. But when Nintendo makes a game in which your Mii, an avatar of.yourself, is the main character, and they still have to be straight, it's ridiculous.

 

[Conezays]

Good. If they're gonna keep the same "whimsical" relationship system I'd rather it not leave Japan, or even get made in the first place.

To each their own. For what its worth, I am full supporter of LGBT rights, marriage, etc. I'm just not sure this campaign will enact the change(s) those in favour want it to.

 

[Authority]

I fully and wholeheartedly support this campaign.

If Nintendo makes it happen it is a win-win situation and Nintendo is the perfect company to promote gender progression in video games.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I believe in Gay marriage and believe anybody should get married. But this is just a game , i think people are blowing this issue way out of proportion.

Honestly, I do get this kind of mentality. I understand that some people just want to play games under the terms dictated by the creators and have fun. They didn't account for or made a conscious decision to not accommodate homosexual relationships? Whatevs. I just want to play a fun game. Is it fun? Great. If not, then I don't care about what social commentary it's making to begin with.

However -- and I'm not trying to discourage offering one's opinion on a topic dedicated to discussion -- I think this kind of sentiment is honestly just better kept to oneself. Not because expressing it makes you a monster, but just because I think it basically contributes little and only serves to perpetuate the very conversation you may wish would go away in favor of being able to talk about the game itself. Whether intended or not, such a post only serves to antagonize people that care about such issues.

 

[Marcel]

What are you talking about? I was responding to someone who was saying that all these other coproations 'support' LGBT communities. I was saying, them giving to charities in no way put them in the line of fire of the public's views like Tomadotchi Life will for Nintendo. All they will get is some quick headline and that's it. I'm saying, that corporations that speak out, have been told by bean counters that mathematically safe to do so, especially since, 'liberal' thinking is in the minority, as much as we would hope other wise.

If Nintendo puts in gay marriage now, they will be heralded for putting gay marriage in the game, which will beg the question why it wasn't in there, when Nintendo is trying to get everyone to realize there was never a question to begin with. They wanted a streetpass mechanic, and built around that. But detractors are pretty much asking them to put in a straight or gay button, which they aren't trying to do. You can put genders in opposite roles for the mechanics to work, there is just no strict label that says this mii is gay.

Like I've said, making this about liberal or conservative or tunnel-vision axe-grinding on corporate insincerity is merely you distracting yourself and setting up easy targets for yourself to knock down. Hopefully you can get beyond that type of thinking one day.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

To each their own. For what its worth, I am full supporter of LGBT rights, marriage, etc. I'm just not sure this campaign will enact the change(s) those in favour want it to.

You know that no everybody wants to boycott it?

Honestly, I do get this kind of mentality. I understand that some people just want to play games under the terms dictated by the creators and have fun. They didn't account for or made a conscious decision to non accommodate homosexual relationships? Whatevs. I just want to play a fun game. Is it fun? Great. If not, then I don't care about what social commentary it's making to begin with.

However -- and I'm not trying to discourage offering one's opinion on a topic dedicated to discussion -- I think this kind of sentiment is honestly just better kept to oneself. Not because expressing it makes you a monster, but just because I think it basically contributes little and only serves to perpetuate the very conversation you may wish would go away in favor of being able to talk about the game itself. Whether intended or not, such a post only serves to antagonize people that care about such issues.

This pretty much.

 

[atr0cious]

I don't think that the approach of justifying that homosexual relationships and child-raising necessitates an explanation to children is very compelling. This is something that's happening out there in the world right now. Your child may very well go to school with another child being raised by two moms or two dads. The fact that this slightly complicates the "well, you see son/daughter, when a mommy and daddy love each other..." story we tell kids in regards to where babies come from doesn't mean that it's necessary to ignore that this is indeed happening right now to real families in the real world. And acknowledging that it occurs isn't shoving any values down anyone's throats.

But there's also a fundamental difference between life and a corporate product made to be played with. Life is unavoidable. I will have that conversation when they ask. But for a corporate product to bring about that conversation, in a game aimed at my child is a bit much. I shouldn't have my kid ask me, am I gay or straight dad?

That's your expectation. Unfortunately, you'd rather live in a world that makes decisions for you as a parent rather than educate yourself and make them on your own. Believe it or not, there are people out there who want their kids to know about the world and who would gladly have their children play a game that included gay characters.

We've now sufficiently moved away from the topic, so I'll be ending this exchange. Do, however, continue to explore the topic and it is my hope that you will come away from it more enlightened.

What? That's ridiculous. You have no right to force a child to make a decision about what they are or will be at an early age. You're telling me, I have to keep things away from my child, because you want the real in a children's toy? That's ridiculous. There are certain things kids can learn at a later age than 7.

Like I've said, making this about liberal or conservative or tunnel-vision axe-grinding on corporate insincerity is merely you distracting yourself and setting up easy targets for yourself to knock down. Hopefully you can get beyond that type of thinking one day.

I'm saying it's beyond that so there's no use bringing them up. I'm saying fuck what corporations say, because they're entities invested in what I will give them financially. You can hurrah their good deeds all you want, that just means they can count on you in the future.

 

[Kinvara]

What other "niche" titles does Nintendo have that could be localized? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Maybe this game bombing would show them the error of them being incredibly heterocentric and noninclusive. And I don't even want to hear the whole change the mii gender thing, I shouldn't have to essentially misgender/crossdress a mii for it to represent a real person.

Nintendo publishes 3rd party titles as well- just recently they published Bravely Default.

Either way, I'm going to post a ton of pics of my "gay" marriages to Samus and Zelda.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Good. If they're gonna keep the same "whimsical" relationship system I'd rather it not leave Japan, or even get made in the first place.

That's a hell of an opinion to have.

You're pretty much asking that nothing that is not all-inclusive ever get made, or am I misrepresenting your opinion?

 

[akidnamededdy]

The issue is about representation. You can count the amount of games.that have (non-comedic/stereotypical) gay characters in it off the top of your hands. But when Nintendo makes a game in which your Mii, an avatar of.yourself, is the main character, and they still have to be straight, it's ridiculous.

Is it any more ridiculous than expecting Nintendo, of all game companies, to blaze a trail for LGBT equality? They wont do anything that's gonna land them on Fox News.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

But there's also a fundamental difference between life and a corporate product made to be played with. Life is unavoidable. I will have that conversation when they ask. But for a corporate product to bring about that conversation, in a game aimed at my child is a bit much. I shouldn't have my kid ask me, am I gay or straight dad?

Why? For full effect, I'm going to note that I let out a very annoyed sigh when I read the bolded. As such, I want to caution before you explain your reasoning that it would behoove you to consider how strongly you've actually thought out this position. Really think about what you're arguing.

 

[atr0cious]

If they will not be in the line of fire... Why they don't do it? Not in this game, but in the other... whats up with that "Magical and whimsical" BS anwser?

Because they already proved it was a technical issue when they had to patch male pregnancies out of the game, which started the whole furor. Everyone is taking it to mean some political statement, when literally the mechanics weren't built for it.

 

[Kinvara]

But there's also a fundamental difference between life and a corporate product made to be played with. Life is unavoidable. I will have that conversation when they ask. But for a corporate product to bring about that conversation, in a game aimed at my child is a bit much. I shouldn't have my kid ask me, am I gay or straight dad?

Homosexualily isn't any more inappropriate than heterosexuality.

Why does a gay relationship automatically mean its unsuitable for children when there are thousands of children's stories about heterosexual romance?

 

[Timeless]

How many conversations did people have with their children about male characters being able to wear skirts in Animal Crossing: New Leaf?

 

[Holmes]

Is it any more ridiculous than expecting Nintendo, of all game companies, to blaze a trail for LGBT equality? They wont do anything that's gonna land them on Fox News.

This story actually appeared on Fox News already. So what? Fox News won't be playing this game. But I'm a potential buyer. I'm not asking to blaze a trail. I'm asking to be represented. You need to stop viewing this issue through the eyes of a paranoid parent who watches Fox News.

 

[Labrys]

That's a hell of an opinion to have.

You're pretty much asking that nothing that is not all-inclusive ever get made, or am I misrepresenting your opinion?

Games like this are different that others. In most other games with relationships you're assigned a character to play as with a defined sexuality/gender/etc, like that gross Conception game or Persona 4. This is different in the way that they want you to use "your life" and yourself as a Mii.

So, I guess you could say I'm against games that use the player as a character that are not all-inclusive. Although at this point in time I don't see why more games could be more inclusive in general, this whole "Heteros only" mindset is so old.

 

[Zee-Row]

Honestly, I do get this kind of mentality. I understand that some people just want to play games under the terms dictated by the creators and have fun. They didn't account for or made a conscious decision to non accommodate homosexual relationships? Whatevs. I just want to play a fun game. Is it fun? Great. If not, then I don't care about what social commentary it's making to begin with.

However -- and I'm not trying to discourage offering one's opinion on a topic dedicated to discussion -- I think this kind of sentiment is honestly just better kept to oneself. Not because expressing it makes you a monster, but just because I think it basically contributes little and only serves to perpetuate the very conversation you may wish would go away in favor of being able to talk about the game itself. Whether intended or not, such a post only serves to antagonize people that care about such issues.

I'm not sure if its the same thing , but I'm just going by games that let you create an avatar for yourself. There are games out there that let you only create a white or a black character but not a Hispanic character which is what i am. I don't let it ruin my experience just because i can't make my avatar looking exactly like me.

 

[AdmiralMikey]

You have no right to force a child to make a decision about what they are or will be at an early age. You're telling me, I have to keep things away from my child, because you want the real in a children's toy? That's ridiculous. There are certain things kids can learn at a later age than 7.

I also don't think children see or understand "gay marriage" the same way as adults do.

I think chances are good that if a boy found out he could marry a boy in Tomodachi Life, he would do it probably because he thinks its weird or funny, not necessarily because he's a boy that loves boys. A girl would probably marry one of her friend's Miis as well because of how close they are. There's no pushing the gay agenda on children here. Teens/adults who are gay get to be indulged, and kids are just given additional options on how they want to play. Either way, there's probably zero chance of Tomodachi Life revealing a young child's true gay tendencies, or swaying innately straight or gay children into switching the other way.

It's honestly the adults in these types of situations who take things the wrong way, not the children. Children are a lot more naturally progressive than short-sighted adults give them credit for.

 

[Marcel]

I'm saying it's beyond that so there's no use bringing them up. I'm saying fuck what corporations say, because they're entities invested in what I will give them financially. You can hurrah their good deeds all you want, that just means they can count on you in the future.

Um, no? I can laud an organization for doing the right thing and skewer them for doing the wrong thing as much as I please. I can applaud a company like Apple for supporting anti-bullying initiatives as well as give them shit for looking the other way over human rights abuses in their manufacturing.

Sometimes it's just not worth shitting on a net positive like charity systems (even if there are obvious flaws in how they are managed or funded), especially with regards to ones that motivate social change that breeds tolerance and understanding. What benefit do I get for doing that in the end? That I was right about them being insincere? Oh what great comfort that will bring.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Games like this are different that others. In most other games with relationships you're assigned a character to play as with a defined sexuality/gender/etc, like that gross Conception game or Persona 4. This is different in the way that they want you to use "your life" and yourself as a Mii.

So, I guess you could say I'm against games that use the player as a character that are not all-inclusive. Although at this point in time I don't see why more games could be more inclusive in general, this whole "Heteros only" mindset is so old.

What about games in which you can customize your avatar and you are ostensibly taking their role?

The Miis are pretty much the same thing. Nothing says you have to make yourself when you create a Mii. Plenty of people don't.

 

[kirblar]

You are saying that like the difference is that huge.

It really is that huge. It's a demographic inevitability.

 

[Bel_Air_Jeff]

I'm not sure if its the same thing , but I'm just going by games that let you create an avatar for yourself. There are games out there that let you only create a white or a black character but not a Hispanic character which is what i am. I don't let it ruin my experience just because i can't make my avatar looking exactly like me.

The only game that you can play as a Jewish character is South Park: Stick of Truth.

And guess what?! They make fun of you the whole game....

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'm not sure if its the same thing , but I'm just going by games that let you create an avatar for yourself. There are games out there that let you only create a white or a black character but not a Hispanic character which is what i am. I don't let it ruin my experience just because i can't make my avatar looking exactly like me.

Right. Honestly, I'm the same way. I don't really think about these things and they have very little impact on my enjoyment of a title. However, I try to be aware of a couple of things and shift gears accordingly when attempting to participate in such a conversation publicly. For starters, as a straight white male, I'm not used to feeling excluded. Secondly, just because it's not an issue that hits close to home for me and affect my enjoyment of a title doesn't mean that this is equally as applicable to other people.

 

[Labrys]

What about games in which you can customize your avatar and you are ostensibly taking their role?

The Miis are pretty much the same thing. Nothing says you have to make yourself when you create a Mii. Plenty of people don't.

I'm afraid I can't recall any games that I could make myself as an avatar that had a relationship system outside, like, Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim (which both had gay options btw)

And, the kicker is the tagline is "Your life". You're expected and encouraged to make yourself in the game, and most people will do that.

 

[atr0cious]

Why? For full effect, I'm going to note that I let out a very annoyed sigh when I read the bolded. As such, I want to caution before you explain your reasoning that it would behoove you to consider how strongly you've actually thought out this position. Really think about what you're arguing.

At what point should a child start thinking being sexual? There is a difference between saying you want to fall in love with someone and have a kid and deciding what gender you're attracted to. At what age it's alright to talk about sex to children at all? This has been a huge thing in schools, where parents don't like when they have sex-ed. And in those cases, which usually take place in middle to high school, I would say, the parent's should've said something.

But I don't see how a corporate product aimed at entertaining my child of under 7 or so should make them ask what they're attracted to. Maybe it will anyways, and I'll deal with that. But I think TL does a noble job of straddling that line. It allows you to put whatever Mii you want in whatever role you want, without asking specifically if they're gay.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm afraid I can't recall any games that I could make myself as an avatar that had a relationship system outside, like, Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim (which both had gay options btw)

And, the kicker is the tagline is "Your life". You're expected and encouraged to make yourself in the game, and most people will do that.

Fair enough. But for you to be a stickler on the "Your life" tagline, you better be just as incensed about the billion other aspects of people's lives that they failed to include.

 

[p0rl]

What? That's ridiculous. You have no right to force a child to make a decision about what they are or will be at an early age. You're telling me, I have to keep things away from my child, because you want the real in a children's toy? That's ridiculous. There are certain things kids can learn at a later age than 7.

You think sexuality is a decision? Or are you saying that a child shouldn't have to decide whether to play as a homosexual or a heterosexual?

 

[akidnamededdy]

This story actually appeared on Fox News already. So what? Fox News won't be playing this game. But I'm a potential buyer. I'm not asking to blaze a trail. I'm asking to be represented. You need to stop viewing this issue through the eyes of a paranoid parent who watches Fox News.

I'm not--Nintendo is, and will continue to do so, because their products are viewed as family friendly and, as wrong and sad as it is, family friendly and LGBTQ do not go together as far as a fair portion of the media is concerned.

If it's a choice between disappointing a small portion of the population and losing a few Tomodachi Life sales or potentially tarnishing their squeaky clean image which is basically their bread and butter, we should already know how it's going to turn out.

 

[Labrys]

Fair enough. But for you to be a stickler on the "Your life" tagline, you better be just as incensed about the billion other aspects of people's lives that they failed to include.

I'm focusing on the relationship aspect of it (as it is the main chunk of the game), but if there are some other non-inclusive aspects of the game I'm willing to be a stickler on them too. The game is trash to me and I'm willing to point out any flaws.

Also, lol at the guy saying he doesn't want his kid questioning sexuality/anything. It's probably better for children to question stuff like that earlier in life so they don't beat themselves up for being "abnormal" when they're older.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

At what point should a child start thinking being sexual? There is a difference between saying you want to fall in love with someone and have a kid and deciding what gender you're attracted to. At what age it's alright to talk about sex to children at all? This has been a huge thing in schools, where parents don't like when they have sex-ed. And in those cases, which usually take place in middle to high school, I would say, the parent's should've said something.

I think the disconnect I have here is that you're not really expounding on why knowledge of the existence of homosexuals uniquely provokes introspection about sexual orientation as opposed to the knowledge of the existence of heterosexuals.

 

[Stumpokapow]

At what point should a child start thinking being sexual? There is a difference between saying you want to fall in love with someone and have a kid and deciding what gender you're attracted to. At what age it's alright to talk about sex to children at all? This has been a huge thing in schools, where parents don't like when they have sex-ed. And in those cases, which usually take place in middle to high school, I would say, the parent's should've said something.

Who is talking about sex?

But I don't see how a corporate product aimed at entertaining my child of under 7 or so should make them ask what they're attracted to. Maybe it will anyways, and I'll deal with that. But I think TL does a noble job of straddling that line. It allows you to put whatever Mii you want in whatever role you want, without asking specifically if they're gay.

I don't understand why you think allowing someone to form a straight relationship is not "asking what they're attracted to" but allowing someone to form a gay relationship is.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It really is that huge. It's a demographic inevitability.

Dunno man, I'm see a lot of young people being hardcore of their ideology.

 

[stilgar]

bullshit excuse, bullshit game, definitely not buying now.
i really want it to bomb now, i don't give a rats ass if we don't get the next entry because from the looks of it that one won't include same sex relationships either. may as well call it a boycott on my part.

-_- welcome to reality: a toy company has a conservative relative to sexual issues. NO WAY.