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[SenorArdilla]

All-NeoGAF difficulty setting: Name 5 that doesn't involve fighting games

That's the problem and just saying well they are in fighting games so they are okay is a lazy reason

Trevor Spacey (Metal Slug 4)
Jonathan (MGS4)
Baek Changpo (Senko no Ronde)
Yun (Pop'n Music)
Yakuza 2 features plot twists along the lines of "_____ is actually Korean!"

 

[Stumpokapow]

Yeah, it's kind of true. Sazh is interesting because at first he's totally that stereotype, but later in the original XIII he proves to actually be the most realistic, like-able character in the game.

Both can simultaneously be true of course; he can be a caricature of a black man (which would not be terribly unexpected given that the vast majority of the staff on the game are Japanese and Japan has a historically mixed record on issues of ethnicity and an unusual level of ethnic homogeneity inside the country, as does Korea) AND he can be in other regards a well-written human whose other character traits are expressed more prominently through dialogue and development than a shallow take on ethnicity.

I only played through chapter 8 and thus can't weigh in too much on the character--likewise with the character considered tokenist or stereotypical in Binary Domain, also by Japanese devs--but my inclination is that even if character depictions lean on visual or sound stereotype, typically they are more well rounded in other areas.

 

[Retro_]

I don't think either of us were saying that. We're just pointing out how much diversity exists in that genre compared to others.

If you think for five seconds about why that is though(fighting games have 20+ playable characters) you quickly realize that it's not really that praiseworthy. Especially when you breakdown the proportional representation of minorities instead of just looking at individual examples

and then when you look at the faces of these games. Your Ryus, your Sol Badguys, your Scorpions/Jins/Akiras/Mitsurugis/Kyos etc, you quickly notice that the aggregate for lead characters in fighting games is really no better than the rest of gaming. The lead characters are almost exclusively japanese males(portrayed with white features ala SF2 Ryu for western appeal) or white males. Fighting games still go with the characters that belong to the ethnic majority as their default characters/leads

 

[block tower]

It's not that it's just his outward appearance especially in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Yeah Square designed him with an afro and a fucking chocobo in his hair, how much more offensive does it get. Especially when you take into account the rest of the cast is presented as supermodel esque looking white males/females with a lot of sex appeal designed to make them appealing to play as. Saszch just isn't treated with that same attention, his appearance looks very much like its aiming for comic relief, he wasn't given that same sex appeal look as the rest of XIII's cast. that's what people mean when the say he's stereotypical for a black character.

 

[golem]

Tbh it stands out more to me now when an ensemble cast *doesnt* have a minority. Everytime I see 1886 i think, white people the game.

 

[Infinite]

I see the issue you're saying and I'm sympathetic to it (see above in my previous reply to the person you just replied to), but probably the best way to address it would b e to talk to the people you feel are the issue, explain why you think that their contribution is taking away from having a space to discuss ethnicity in games rather than adding to a bigger conversation about representation, and encourage them to start a discussion on the issue they are discussing; unless you believe they're posting in bad faith (IE just trying to derail the thread, not being sincere at all) in which case you're probably better off PMing a mod.

I hope I'm conveying here a desire to encourage these kinds of conversations, not discourage them.

Without nominating myself, as I know a few other mods are reading the thread, obviously a number of our mods feel pretty comfortable discussing moderation issues as they relate to identity politics... notably Cyan and Mumei in OT, but Nirolak, charlequin, myself, Steve Youngblood, and besada on this side would probably be good choices if you wanted to follow-up.

No this is completely fair.

Yeah Square designed him with an afro and a fucking chocobo in his hair, how much more offensive does it get. Especially when you take into account the rest of the cast is presented as supermodel esque looking white males/females with a lot of sex appeal desogned to make them appealing to play as. Saszch just isn't treated with that same attention, his appearance looks very mich like its aiming for comic relief, he wasn't given that same sex appeal look as the rest of XIII's cast. that's what people mean when the say he's stereotypical for a black character.

I actually don't have an issue with the way Sazh looks. I don't mind his afro but the chocobo thing is better off not being in there though. The one problem with Sazh's look is that he just doesn't look as "cool" or interesting as the other characters. So yeah I agree with you on that.

 

[Conciliator]

I think Left 4 Dead 2 really kills it in terms of minority representation and also just characters in general.

Half the cast is black, which is appropriate because the setting is a location with a really large black population. Those two characters are 100% believable but not cliche. One of the reasons Coach and Rochelle resonated with me so much is because I live in the dirty south myself and I know a ton of people like Coach and Rochelle and playing L4D2 made me realize that I've never seen these people I know so well in video games really. Sure, there are any number of black characters, but the vast majority are stereotyped, either a little bit or completely, so it was practically a revelation for me getting to know Rochelle & co..

EDIT: Borderlands has done some good work on this front as others have noted. It's also great proof that you can make minority characters that are cartoony and exaggerated, but you don't have to rely on stereotypes for that. I think that someone like Hammerlock is a deliberate subversion of kind of roles black characters typically get.

 

[block tower]

I think Left 4 Dead 2 really kills it in terms of minority representation and also just characters in general.

Half the cast is black, which is appropriate because the setting is a location with a really large black population. Those two characters are 100% believable but not cliche. One of the reasons Coach and Rochelle resonated with me so much is because I live in the dirty south myself and I know a ton of people like Coach and Rochelle and playing L4D2 made me realize that I've never seen these people I know so well in video games really. Sure, there are any number of black characters, but the vast majority are stereotyped, either a little bit or completely, so it was practically a revelation for me getting to know Rochelle & co..

if you refer to my previous post on page 5, i explain exactly why studios like Valve can pull this off without a hitch.

 

[MormaPope]

Lee and Clementine, a black man nearing middle age and a young black girl.

Nier and Yonah, a middle aged ugly white dude and his sick daughter.

I want more characters like the above, older adults that are not white or white adults that don't look like plain ass male super models. Age is almost as under represented or understated as non white protags.

 

[HolyBaikal]

Funny how Sazh is there, when he's probably the least stereotypical dark-skinned videogame character of them all.

What about Kiros?

 

[BlackBanditSho]

Damn, it must be nice to live with that.

I can't stand the "I don't see it, so it's not worth discussing" sentiment. Truly out of sight, out of mind.


Ding Ding Ding.

The blogger (journalist) of today imo seems more preoccupied with getting a steady viewership than actually expounding his/her own views (and who's to blame him/her with the current set up of readership, which is completely aqueous and volatile).

This on the money.

It's this way because it's not worth it. I remember when N'Gai Croal made comments about Re5 and how developers might want to CONSIDER cultural sensitivity as we move towards such realistic experiences. He wasn't saying that the industry was racist. He was simply expressing that that the imagery in the early trailers was evocative of some really weighty and uncomfortable history. AND THE INTERNET WENT APESHIT.

I've listened to people JUMP on Andrea Renee in response to things that she might've said on Weekend Confirmed. Totally unwarranted vitriol that I know would've been received differently (and more respectfully) were she a male.

Oh, and I won't even touch the anger and hate poured on Anita Sarkeesian over her Kickstarter about sexism in video games. You'd think she kicked somebody's dog.

This industry is VERY immature. The audience is VERY inclined to support people that look like them, think like them, with experiences like them. That's the way they like their journalists, and that's the way they like their gaming protagonists.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Those two are considered as majority in our populations. I'd like to see more of them being represented in the future.

Then we could go into other ethnics like Indo-malay (like my self), etc.

Diversity in games is good, as long as they are contextual and make sense.

What do you mean by contextual? In most modern day games, Indian or Chinese will fit the context.

 

[Authority]

Because they are additional attributes to the negative stereotyping. In isolation there is nothing wrong.

If someone asks me how is the white population represented in the media and/or game industry I cannot answer because there is a mass variation of roles, attitudes, personas and so on and so forth. Variety is the key to break the stereotype.

And to clarify more what I mean.

Mirror's Edge Trailer

A good game is a good game regardless of race as long as the main character and his/her story is interesting. What matters is how the ethnic background of that main character is presented, which makes the difference, and allows for a wider audience to connect with him/her.

 

[batfax]

Yeah Square designed him with an afro and a fucking chocobo in his hair, how much more offensive does it get. Especially when you take into account the rest of the cast is presented as supermodel esque looking white males/females with a lot of sex appeal designed to make them appealing to play as. Saszch just isn't treated with that same attention, his appearance looks very much like its aiming for comic relief, he wasn't given that same sex appeal look as the rest of XIII's cast. that's what people mean when the say he's stereotypical for a black character.

Kinda funny that you bring models into it when I think Sazh looked the best when they actually turned the FFXIII cast into fashion models.

 

[test_account]

Discrimination is more than burning crosses and banning people from restaurants. It's also making assumptions about how other people live as being like how you live. When you say "I'm colour-blind, I don't discriminate", what you lose is the way that ethnicity is not just people of colour being equal to white people, but also the way in which ethnicity has contributed to that person's sense of identity in a positive way; the sense of connection, the shared heritage, the way your family and country's history contributes to the way you feel today. It's the different cultural and historical things--the names, the cooking, the music, the heroes, the triumphs, and the tragedies. Certainly this kind of passive discrimination is less bad than openly causing other people harm, but it's still a problem. In other words, diversity doesn't just imply equality, it also implies a capacity for pluralism or difference.

Clearly hurting someone or banning them from having rights is WRONG. But just because you give someone equal rights, doesn't mean you are respecting the ways in which they're different.

One concept related to this is privilege. Privilege means that we were all born with certain benefits. Like, by being born in a developed country, people like you or me don't really know what it's like to starve on a daily basis, right? Well the same is true for your gender. If you're male, you are not the victim of sexism. If you're straight, you're not the victim of homophobia. If you're part of the majority ethnic group, you're never seen as "different" or "foreign". If you were born without a disability, you've never felt unable to achieve your potential because of barriers based on disability. If you haven't struggled with mental illness, you might not know what it is not to be able to get out of bed because of crippling depression. If you do well socially or are neurotypical, you might not know what it's like not to understand a social situation and be paralyzed by missing social cues. It goes on.

But besides all these things, the fact that you don't feel those stings of discrimination also limits your ability to understand when people do. Basically even really empathetic people who really care about others only know the life they've lived themselves, they can't ever know what it's like to be someone else.

So in this context, the privilege that occurs is that even if someone who is white doesn't believe in legal discrimination against people of colour, because they don't understand other aspects of people of colour's lives, they tend to assume that there aren't other things going on, that since discrimination is solved, race no longer means anything. Because for people in the majority, many parts of their identity they just take for granted because those parts are expressed in the world around them, so they assume that other people share those parts even if they don't.

The short version here is that the worst kind of discrimination... the hate, the laws, the violence, the racial slurs... that's just the tip of the iceberg. Ethnicity is much more complicated. And when you treat it like it doesn't matter, you're missing the ways it does for other people.

I think we are talking about different things here. I dont disagree with what you're saying, but i dont see how it is related to what i was meaning to say, so let me clearify a bit. When i used the word "discriminate", i was just meaning it in the general sense. Just to take one example, "AIDS doesnt discriminate", meaning that regardless of where you're from or how you look, it doesnt matter, everyone is equal in that sense (everyone can get that desease). In general terms, it would mean that it doesnt matter where people are from or how they look etc., everyone are on the same level. Or, "i accept you regardless of where you're from or how you look", if you see what i mean? Also, having a view where it doesnt matter where someone is from or how they look like, and what matters is how the person behave, that doesnt limit any ability to know about that racism etc. actually does happen. Sorry if i didnt make that more clear earlier.

Maybe i'm missing some points in this discussion, but i just wanted to reply on the racisim thing. About ethnicity, i definitelly see that its important for many people to preserve their culture and history, so that thing isnt necessarily linked to racism indeed. I mean, its possible to discuss things about ethnicity without bringing up racisim.

 

[BlackBanditSho]

And to clarify more what I mean.

A good game is a good game regardless of race as long as the main character and his/her story is interesting.

Sorry for quoting such a big picture. I'll never forget when they gave this character a makeover and somebody on GAF said that they liked the new look better because she looked 'too asian' before. This picture above is the original art, I believe.

I just shook my head.

The industry's fine. Nobody sees color, amirate?? #makeitinvisible

 

[Stumpokapow]

The presentation of black males with Afros is a real challenge, I think. On the one hand, the Afro is an iconic hairstyle commonly worn and a powerful, positive symbol that historically became most prominent in the US with black power movements in the Vietnam/civil rights era, as a return to more African hairstyles was seen as empowering.

On the other hand, seeing a symbol of liberation and empowerment co-opted by people who don't and don't try to understand the black experience, and converted into an easy stereotype and signpost for blackness as an object of mocking or reduction sucks.

So how do you tell which it is? My inclination would be that if you are going to use a audio or visual image that is stereotypical (traditional clothing, hairstyles, particular accents or diction) then you should probably consult with individuals to see how you can compensate for that in characterization and writing in order to make people feel more comfortable with the use of the stereotypical image.

Basically, I think diversity in development teams, including in Japanese teams, would probably lead to better portrayals.

Also, having a view where it doesnt matter where someone is from or how they look like, and what matters is how the person behave, that doesnt limit any ability to know about that racism etc.

Yes, it does, that's my point. It's good that the person in question doesn't think ethnicity "matters" in a negative way, but it's not good that he can't recognize that it "matters" in a positive way, and that perspective blinds him to the capacity to recognize subtler forms of discrimination by the exclusion of difference.

A view that we're all equal is great. A view that we're all one is great. A view that we're all the same subtly hurts people who are different and shows a lack of respect for their differences and a blindness to the way that those differences bring both positive affirmation to the person and are the basis for enduring discrimination against the person.

 

[kuYuri]

Nicole-458 from DOA4 came to mind

Seriously? Where is it stated or implied that she's Filipina?

EDIT: Did a search on it, mind blown.

Juri
Baek Doo San
Hwoarang
Seong Mina
and err.....Issue is they're all from fighting games.

Park Yoon Hee (Forty-Five) from Socom 4 is a Korean squadmate.

 

[Infinite]

The presentation of black males with Afros is a real challenge, I think. On the one hand, the Afro is an iconic hairstyle commonly worn and a powerful, positive symbol that historically became most prominent in the US with black power movements in the Vietnam/civil rights era, as a return to more African hairstyles was seen as empowering.

On the other hand, seeing a symbol of liberation and empowerment co-opted by people who don't and don't try to understand the black experience, and converted into an easy stereotype and signpost for blackness as an object of mocking or reduction sucks.

So how do you tell which it is? My inclination would be that if you are going to use a audio or visual image that is stereotypical (traditional clothing, hairstyles, particular accents or diction) then you should probably consult with individuals to see how you can compensate for that in characterization and writing in order to make people feel more comfortable with the use of the stereotypical image.

Basically, I think diversity in development teams, including in Japanese teams, would probably lead to better portrayals.

In the case of Sazh i think the fact that a bird lives in his hair portrays the afro as messy, unkept, and unruly like a nest.

 

[plasmawave]

Sorry for quoting such a big picture. I'll never forget when they gave this character a makeover and somebody on GAF said that they liked the new look better because she looked 'too asian' before. This picture above is the original art, I believe.

I just shook my head.

The industry's fine. Nobody sees color, amirate?? #makeitinvisible

Asian characters portrayed by westen devs all have tiny slanted eyes. All of them.
They all look the same except for hair style.

 

[ASIS]

What about Arabs? What games are there that doesn't portray us as the antagonists?

 

[block tower]

In the case of Sazh i think the fact that a bird lives in his hair portrays the afro as messy, unkept, and unruly like a nest.

i think i'd also like to hear the conversation the development team was having when they came up with his look. i can't imagine it was a positive conversation when someone suggested for him to have a chocobo in his hair. like what was the reasoning for that addition to his look?

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Sorry for quoting such a big picture. I'll never forget when they gave this character a makeover and somebody on GAF said that they liked the new look better because she looked 'too asian' before. This picture above is the original art, I believe.

I just shook my head.

The industry's fine. Nobody sees color, amirate?? #makeitinvisible

Funny you say that, in 2 of the 3 examples of games with Chinese characters, you don't see the main character.

 

[RMS Gigantic]

I believe he's talking about RMS Gigantic, who is using the thread as a platform to discuss the issue of neurodiversity in gaming. I'm of two minds personally; I think ethnicity deserves a space for discussion, and so if RMS's point is to take away from that space, that's wrong. On the other hand, I also think neurodiversity deserves a space for discussion, and if RMS doesn't feel like it's possible for that space to emerge outside of the context of a discussion of other issues of inclusion, then it stands to reason that he'd discuss it here. Ultimately I think the best solution is to encourage everyone to be mindful of others and empathetic towards the ways in which all of us suffer challenges that we can work through together.

Sorry about that; I should probably make my own thread on the matter of neurodiversity in gaming (though there has been a lot of diversity discussion today, from sexuality to race to ethnicity to neurodiversity). I posted the neurodiversity stuff here because some definitions I found of "ethnicity" seem to allow autstic people to be considered an ethnicity, but further research seems to find that autism doesn't really fit the definition.

 

[Stumpokapow]

In the case of Sazh i think the fact that a bird lives in his hair portrays the afro as messy, unkept, and unruly like a nest.

Well that itself is a double-edged image; to the extent that it's a symbol of authentic black hair, that's a great thing. I mean, that's what it was for the Panthers, and that's what it was a symbol of liberation. Personally I took the chocobo as being sort of a fantasy take on the fact that historically some people who wore fros walked around with the fro pick in their fro. It's a sort of affirming statement "This is how I was made".

To the extent that it's a symbol of the white (here I'm using the term white not to mean exclusively caucasian, but also to refer to individuals whose ethnicities are embedded in the power structure of the culture they live in, including asians in ethnically homogeneous countries and thus FF13's designers; this is not me attempting to render invisible asian ethnicity or Japanese nationality, which both have unique and rich characteristics expressed in many contexts) perception that hair ought to be neat and restrained and ordered, or the historical association which black features as "wild", or more animal-natured than white features, and differing.

I mean my main concern is that if a white person says "What does a black person look like?" and comes up with Mr. T and leans on that, that's racist. Not that it's hateful, but that it de-values and disrespects in a more subtle way. And even if they don't sort of know why those traits (ebonics, the hair, the visual style) are a part of a stereotype, borrowing the stereotype rather than asking real people to share their real perspective as a person of colour is exclusive.

Again I can't speak much to how Sazh sizes up in the end, just to say I understand what the negative first reaction to him is, but I also understand how the characterization might prove to challenge that first reaction and represent good characterization on SE's part. Had Sazh been made exactly the same visually in a game where the development team had significant representation of people of colour, I think people would be more inclined to have a charitable first read... rather than being made by the same company that gave us Barrett, which was literally a case of white people saying "What does a black person look and sound like?"

Sorry about that; I should probably make my own thread on the matter of neurodiversity in gaming (though there has been a lot of diversity discussion today, from sexuality to race to ethnicity to neurodiversity). I posted the neurodiversity stuff here because some definitions I found of "ethnicity" seem to allow autstic people to be considered an ethnicity, but further research seems to find that they're two different things.

Well like I said, I don't think it's clear cut either way. As long as you're trying to build on and respect the conversation, and not take away or redirect the conversation, I think it's OK. Obviously me replying to you earlier suggests that I have respect for the issue you're talking about and can see why you chose to bring it up here initially.

 

[Aces&Eights]

One problem I see is that when different races are are utilized in different forms of mediums one side will say they are being stereotyped and the other say they are "sell outs" if they don't have enough of the same stereotypes the other side complains about.

Growing up I was privileged enough to have friends from all walks of life. Straight, gay, white, African American, Native American, Chinese, Russian, you name it. We all hung out riding bikes, playing video games, building forts and never look at each other like we were any different. Obviously, each kid had a family that had certain traditions or ways of doing things or certain foods that were indigenous to their culture. It wasn't a black, white, Chinese thing it was just Svetlana's mom wore a hair cover like you see in Slavic countries, Tre's family wore beautiful and vibrant African colors, my mom (I'm white) made the bomb apple pies and mac n cheese and Chen's family spoke to each other in ways I never could figure out. It was just cool, not a race thing. 12 year old Aces&Eights didn't think, "Whoa. Tre had chicken tonight that's so black." Fuck, when his parents did BBQ we all halled ass over to his house to get some!

It's just so stupid that people have to be categorized or stereotyped. We are all people from different places with different cultures. Game devs and more specifically movie producers need to quit fucking trying to represent each race with ridiculous token items or clothes or attitudes and tell the actors, "hey, just BE YOU".

 

[test_account]

Yes, it does, that's my point. It's good that the person in question doesn't think ethnicity "matters" in a negative way, but it's not good that he can't recognize that it "matters" in a positive way, and that perspective blinds him to the capacity to recognize subtler forms of discrimination by the exclusion of difference.

A view that we're all equal is great. A view that we're all one is great. A view that we're all the same subtly hurts people who are different and shows a lack of respect for their differences and a blindness to the way that those differences bring both positive affirmation to the person and are the basis for enduring discrimination against the person.

I agree with that, but i dont agree that those things can only co-excist. I can only speak for myself, but for me, what matters is how people behave, i dont care where they are from or how they look. I'm still perfectly capable of recoginze that certain customs and things like that matters to other people, and i respect that because i know it means a lot to them.

EDIT: And just to be clear, what i was talking about earlier was just the race question (what was mentioned was "race doesnt matter"), i didnt mean to talk about ethnicity in what i originally said.

 

[Jado]

Fun fact:
http://thegrio.com/2011/11/11/blacks-play-games-but-dont-design-them/

This is also true of Hollywood and (possibly) comic books. In general, the faces constantly presented front and center don't make much sense when it comes to the growing minority makeup of the country and the fact that minorities on average consume more of this entertainment media than whites. It's all far more homogenized than reality. It's stupid and bizarre.

But back on topic, ethnic minorities should get more visibility, but I don't think that they should force that. Let me explain: I think that creating a character from scratch with them in mind is a lot better than just adapting because "we need to be PC". One example of the later to me is that new Peter Parker, and one example for me of the first is the girl from Beyond Good and Evil and the girl from Remember Me. It usually ends up better in the first case.

Double post, sorry.

Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. I completely disagree with your post. Mindy Kaling has been called out because she only dates white guys on her show and almost the entire cast is white (in a NYC hospital!!) except for a sassy, loud black nurse -- these are decisions she made as the showrunner and someone who has gotten where she is with quite some help from Asian groups. Her angry responses: It's doesn't fall on her shoulders to be the "UN of television," what about other shows that go unquestioned, etc. She's right that other shows deserve as much criticism, but the "UN" part is the problem with her. She has been conditioned, like everyone around her, into thinking that "white is normal/standard." It's a common mentality that adding people of color is somehow an exception, compromising your vision, making a "black/brown show," being PC, being "racial," and so on.

Why can't adding several Latinos, blacks or Asians into the mix just be normal and okay? A black Spider-man is no worse and no more forced than the hundreds of white comic book and video game heroes, fantasy/sci-fi ensemble casts, and so on. Obviously you don't just wanna add a poorly written minority character that is either a walking stereotype or simply a stand-in for a white person, but there are easy ways to just include diversity without acting like your product has suddenly and radically become a race thing that will turn everyone off to it.

I think Left 4 Dead 2 really kills it in terms of minority representation and also just characters in general.

Half the cast is black, which is appropriate because the setting is a location with a really large black population.

On the TV front, this is my problem with The Walking Dead. Love the show for the zombies and mindless fun, but what a fucking joke for show in and around Atlanta. Finally trying to get shit right with a whopping three black characters that finally aren't mute. I'm a couple of volumes into the comic book and it's not any better.

 

[HolyBaikal]

I've noticed the ways that games with realistic graphics try to portray Asian characters from South Korea and Japan and the West are different.

I wonder why that is.

I guess some a lot of people might say it's anime and that influencing Japan and South Korea and how they design faces. And cartoons and that influencing American and European aesthetics.

But I have noticed it is different and I wonder where it comes from.
Also, the way that Japan and Western companies design Western characters is often very different. It seems like Western characters are often maybe more idealized looking than those designed and developed in the West.

 

[test_account]

What about Arabs? What games are there that doesn't portray us as the antagonists?

Unearthed. Its a 3rd person adventure game very similar to Uncharted, but the main characters are arabs. I guess maybe the Prince of Persia games as well.

 

[PK Gaming]

Kind of disappointed that the OP glossed over Garcian Smith, but I get it

He's a pretty obscure character. There are some pretty decent representation black people in gaming, but you have to look hard. Barret walks a fine line between solid character and stereotype, but I think he's a great character overall. He gets the 2nd most development out of the entire cast in FF7 after Cloud, and his character arc is flat out awesome. (and his relationship with Marelene is just adorable) If you boil him down to his core, he really just wants to save the planet. He's not really the angry unreasonable black man for most of the game.

What about Kiros?

Kiros barely qualifies as a character. He's fluff.

 

[Camp Lo]

Not to deride your point, but Salvador is Hispanic.

I was going to say. Not that he wouldn't fall into the same spectrum but yeah, he's not black.

 

[BlackBanditSho]

Asian characters portrayed by westen devs all have tiny slanted eyes. All of them.
They all look the same except for hair style.

See, that's the point though! I had NO idea that this was an issue. I would LOVE to see the game/protagonist that asians give the thumbs up too. Even less broadly, what kind of cultural experience would a Chinese or Filipino game provide? A Japanese-centric game? Perhaps a game with heavily Buddhist philosophies, imagery, and symbolism or even an approach to gameplay. I have NO idea what that looks like, but i can certainly tell you what a Japanese guy with a sword will do.

There was a fascinating Time magazine article that i wanted to really dig deep on in my, now, DEAD podcast. I wanted to explore games as documentaries and teaching tools. Ubisoft plays with the idea in Assassin's Creed, but what if the school systems hired studios like Telltale or even Rockstar to make games with the interactivity and fidelity of our award-winning experiences, but with all of the material of your school textbook?

Games can be a medium to educate and entertain. They're interactive windows to other cultures that spark an emotional connection in a way that movies cannot.

I really wanted to do that podcast before pulling the plug. This thread just makes me sad.

What about Arabs? What games are there that doesn't portray us as the antagonists?

And you're absolutely right. I would love to see more video games with an Arab protagonist.

I think the problem here is that many gamers simply feel that palette-swapping the protagonist with insert color solves the problem. There are cultural details that artists throw in the environment, dialogue choices that shape the interactions, and sometimes even cultural issues that affect intimacy that are VERY different even if we ultimately arrive at the same point. It's those distinctions that make the choice of protagonist VERY important.

That said, it's probably too big for the goal of most developers...but these are issues that the gaming industry MUST consider as we move forward with the maturation of this medium.

For now, frankly, I'd just be happy to be able to have a character selection screen with a wide range of choices so that I can see something that looks KIND of like me when I'm staring at the game for 40+ hours.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I agree with that, but i dont agree that those things can only co-excist. I can only speak for myself, but for me, what matters is how people behave, i dont care where they are from or how they look. I'm still perfectly capable of recoginze that certain customs and things like that matters to other people, and i respect that because i know it means a lot to them.

I'm not calling you racist or allege that you want to discriminate. I'm saying to look at the context here -- it's a thread about how minorities do not get good representation in games. There's a lot of discussion. So to come in and say "Race doesn't matter, I'm colour blind", is to say that since people aren't experiencing formal discrimination, the issues they are talking about -- subtly being rendered invisible by not being represented or being represented poorly -- doesn't matter. Race clearly does matter, that's what people are saying.

So for someone who is white to come in and say that it doesn't, is like if a woman says she is still the victim of lots of subtle discrimination (like say if she gets angry at someone, people call her "a bitch", but if a male coworker gets the same level of angry, people just think "he's a tough guy who negotiates hard") and a man replies that gender doesn't matter.

A better example might be that this is a thread about a problem that minorities face, and we're continuing to have a discussion about whether or not it's fair that a white guy is being perceived as insensitive for his remarks... instead of paying attention and listening to people who are minorities talk about the problems they face. By redirecting the attention away from the problem and the victims, it takes away from the discussion. And it's another reminder to people who are minorities that even in a space totally dedicated to talking about the problems they face, they're still rendered invisible or less important by people who claim not to care about ethnic issues and to believe in equality.

 

[Alebrije]

Worse than lack if minoritie representation are steriotypes

 

[Authority]

Sorry for quoting such a big picture. I'll never forget when they gave this character a makeover and somebody on GAF said that they liked the new look better because she looked 'too asian' before. This picture above is the original art, I believe.

Picture of that make over? I never knew that game. Just found out about it.

Lee and Clementine, a black man nearing middle age and a young black girl.

Perfect example. I remember I felt a relief and thought "Finally" because it was the first black main character I could see myself connecting with. In contrast with that GTA title (can't remember) where I couldn't connect at all with that black male protagonist.

I hope I get my point across on what I mean.

 

[zeldablue]

Honestly...it's fine to be a stereotype if you have a quality that makes you relatable to everyone. Sazh is cool because he has characterizations that anyone can feel for. He's a loving father who struggles with his mistakes. Stereotypes are only bad because they make certain groups seem unrelatable and different.

In FFXIII all the characters are walking stereotypes that are hiding something not so typical and more realistic inside.

I think.

 

[Stumpokapow]

What about Arabs? What games are there that doesn't portray us as the antagonists?

Unearthed, as test mentioned, is a game that is specifically based in Arab mythos (Ibn Battuta) and was designed explicitly to provide an empowering and positive portrayal of Arabs and Arab countries and culture. Unfortunately it's not a good game at all, in part because it's developed by a Saudi dev and obviously it takes a while to develop a national infrastructure for development and a good talent pool.

If you expand it to the Middle East, Garshasp is a God of War clone inspired by Persian mythos... not Arab, I know, but you might find some solidarity. Also not great, unfortunately. To that you could probably add Prince of Persia, whose whole series is rooted in Persian heritage and has Persian characters across the board... of course the voice-acted instalments have white voice actors, and the engagement with culture is hardly deep.

Mostly I would say that Arabs and Middle Easterners or North Africans are rarely depicted, and when they are depicted it's almost always in a military context and as the antagonists. Very unfortunate.

 

[twobear]

The most racist people in my mind are do-gooders who like to bring up the issue of 'race' at all. It's not something I normally would ever think about.

Yep, and the biggest homophobes are those guys who go on pride marches.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Perfect example. I remember I felt a relief and thought "Finally" because it was the first black main character I could see myself connecting with. In contrast with that GTA title (can't remember) where I couldn't connect at all with that black male protagonist.

I hope I get my point across on what I mean.

I'm assuming you mean San Andreas, where the main character is CJ, who is black... but also a gangbanger clearly written by white dudes from the UK, and probably contributed to player associating his ethnicity with his occupation.

Versus how Lee is a black guy who isn't a walking stereotype, identifies as black rather than being a guy with black skin but no other characteristics and who could otherwise be white... he has positive and negative attributes, has a fulfilling job (there's even interesting dialogue about how he's a black southerner who studies American history and has done civil war re-enactments, if I remember correctly).

 

[Plywood]

This is why I like games that let me create/customize my character.

 

[test_account]

I'm not calling you racist or allege that you want to discriminate. I'm saying to look at the context here -- it's a thread about how minorities do not get good representation in games. There's a lot of discussion. So to come in and say "Race doesn't matter, I'm colour blind", is to say that since people aren't experiencing formal discrimination, the issues they are talking about -- subtly being rendered invisible by not being represented or being represented poorly -- doesn't matter. Race clearly does matter, that's what people are saying.

So for someone who is white to come in and say that it doesn't, is like if a woman says she is still the victim of lots of subtle discrimination (like say if she gets angry at someone, people call her "a bitch", but if a male coworker gets the same level of angry, people just think "he's a tough guy who negotiates hard") and a man replies that gender doesn't matter.

A better example might be that this is a thread about a problem that minorities face, and we're continuing to have a discussion about whether or not it's fair that a white guy is being perceived as insensitive for his remarks... instead of paying attention and listening to people who are minorities talk about the problems they face. By redirecting the attention away from the problem and the victims, it takes away from the discussion. And it's another reminder to people who are minorities that even in a space totally dedicated to talking about the problems they face, they're still rendered invisible or less important by people who claim not to care about ethnic issues and to believe in equality.

I see what you mean. I dont think i was being too clear about my previous post, so let me just clearify a bit more. What was said earlier about "race doesnt matter", i believe it was just talk about skin color, so i replied out from that. Its possible that it was more to it than that and i misunderstood, but i was just replying like it was an issue about skin color only. I was just replying to those posts in specific, i didnt adress the whole discussion. If the "race doesnt matter" was referring to ethnicity as well, as in the culture and customs etc. to people, then i clearly agree to what you're saying, because those things to matter to people. I definitelly see your point now. And no, i dont think you were calling me a racist or anything like that, not at all. It just seems like there were some misunderstanding, and i should have clearified earlier that was i taking point in skin color only when i first replied.

EDIT: And just to clearify a bit more based on some other posts. When i talk about skin color, i'm only thinking about that people respect other despite of what color they have. I dont talk about being colorblind in that regard. I thought that colorblind in this context ment that one respected people despite of their skin color, but apparently it means something else. I didnt know that.

 

[BeatnikGunsoo]

I think we could/should see more minorities represented in video games, but if i'm being honest I don't really care either way (i'm black)

on the bright side though, minorities are the majority for sports games

yay!

 

[Authority]

I'm assuming you mean San Andreas, where the main character is CJ, who is black... but also a gangbanger clearly written by white dudes from the UK, and probably contributed to player associating his ethnicity with his occupation.

Versus how Lee is a black guy who isn't a walking stereotype, identifies as black rather than being a guy with black skin but no other characteristics and who could otherwise be white... he has positive and negative attributes, has a fulfilling job (there's even interesting dialogue about how he's a black southerner who studies American history and has done civil war re-enactments, if I remember correctly).

That is the one. I remember it made me feel uncomfortable, really uncomfortable because I couldn't familiarize with him at all and it kind of gave me a shock of "What is wrong with me? Is it because he is black I cannot feel comfortable playing him?"

Found an interesting article regarding Arabs.

REPRESENTING ARABS IN VIDEO GAMES

Will add it as well.

 

[Retro_]

I think we are talking about different things here. I dont disagree with what you're saying, but i dont see how it is related to what i was meaning to say, so let me clearify a bit. When i used the word "discriminate", i was just meaning it in the general sense. Just to take one example, "AIDS doesnt discriminate", meaning that regardless of where you're from or how you look, it doesnt matter, everyone is equal in that sense (everyone can get that desease). In general terms, it would mean that it doesnt matter where people are from or how they look etc., everyone are on the same level. Or, "i accept you regardless of where you're from or how you look", if you see what i mean? Also, having a view where it doesnt matter where someone is from or how they look like, and what matters is how the person behave, that doesnt limit any ability to know about that racism etc. actually does happen. Sorry if i didnt make that more clear earlier.

Maybe i'm missing some points in this discussion, but i just wanted to reply on the racisim thing. About ethnicity, i definitelly see that its important for many people to preserve their culture and history, so that thing isnt necessarily linked to racism indeed. I mean, its possible to discuss things about ethnicity without bringing up racisim.

I think the problem with "color-blindness" is that it's such a dishonest defense mechanism.

because it's impossible to not see color. It's impossible to live in a vacuum and not be shaped at least partially by the environment around you and the dominant views on race/gender/sexuality that you're exposed to within that environment.

What's important is how you deal with it. That you're able to identify and reflect on your problematic thoughts or actions and gain perspective from them.

Proclaiming that you're color blind prevents that. There's no need for introspection when you're OBVIOUSLY not racist. It's just an excuse for an individual to not have to do any real deep thinking about the issue or themselves. It's just a way to remove yourself from the problem so you don't have to deal with it.

So it really has no place in a discussion about race I feel.

 

[LauriPoika]

Where I live 96.4% of the population is Finnish, 0.76% is Estonian and 0.56% is Russian. I didn't even have to look up the protagonists of the 150 top selling games to know that there is no way that 95% of them were Finnish. Now that's fucked up!

 

[Retro_]

Where I live 96.4% of the population is Finnish, 0.76% is Estonian and 0.56% is Russian. I didn't even have to look up the protagonists of the 150 top selling games to know that there is no way that 95% of them were Finnish. Now that's fucked up!

Nationality does not equal ethnicity or race

 

[block tower]

I'm assuming you mean San Andreas, where the main character is CJ, who is black... but also a gangbanger clearly written by white dudes from the UK, and probably contributed to player associating his ethnicity with his occupation.

Versus how Lee is a black guy who isn't a walking stereotype, identifies as black rather than being a guy with black skin but no other characteristics and who could otherwise be white... he has positive and negative attributes, has a fulfilling job (there's even interesting dialogue about how he's a black southerner who studies American history and has done civil war re-enactments, if I remember correctly).

yes, but you could also argue that San Andreas was a period piece, liken to Red Dead Redemption, and was also a caricature of itself. GTA III, GTA Vice City, and GTA San Andreas all share the same narritive tone in that respect. I'm not sure how anyone could relate to CJ anymore than they could relte to Tommy Vercetti, both were ethnic stereotypes for the organized crime they represented.

 

[Silky]

As a black male, I'm glad that I can enjoy characters like Coach, Louis and Rochelle being great representations of black people. At the same time, I can chuckle at caricatures like Cole Train.

There's still a lot of work to be done obviously. But it's getting there.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I was implying you were being selfish, because by taking the opportunity to turn a conversation about this very worthy problem into complaining that people care about another very worthy problem, you show disrespect for the things other people care about and the reasons they care about them.

I think an analysis of the ways in which subtle racism exists in discourses surrounding video games IN SPITE of a willingness to engage with issues of gender is very valuable. Feminists, for example, have long debated about the presence of racism and exclusion within discourses of feminism (ie that feminism has primarily benefitted white middle class women, rather than recognizing how other elements of identity interact with gender). This is very valuable.

Well, I DO apologize if I disrespected anyone in that regard. Wasn't really the intent, altho you mention a good point that should be explored more often.

None of these issues are mutually exclusive, so at the time I can see how an ethnic women of color may feel when they see gains of feminists success go mostly to...non-ethnic/minority women.

There are lots of reasons for that I know, but it's still an unfortunate thing and shows how closely these struggles intertwine at times.

This is why I like games that let me create/customize my character.

Character creation doesn't actually solve the problem; it's more of a stop-gap. It also saves developers from having to write a story around a minority themselves....

....altho that can get into murky waters of what a story written around a minority would look like, because culturally a minority may not know about a lot (or any) things relating to the ethnic side of their culture if they're a typical American kid, for example. You can't suddenly write an African-American teen who's an expert on safari wildlife and Johannansburg, or a Japanese-American kid who's an expert on ancient samurai swords. If they're typical American teens, they wouldn't probably know about that b/c American teens get most of their info from American media, and American media rarely (if ever) brings up that sort of stuff.