Support NeoGAF

[danwarb]

To all of those males here who are not able or interested to understand.

Imagine you are not the centre of the world and worlds, may they be Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Uncharted, God of War etc etc. are not build around you. You are an afterthought, at best.

You would want representation. Representation of the players, to use a marketing term, #4theplayers. Not more, not less.

Now imagine other gamers would tell you to shut up. To stop complaining for whatever strawman reasons. That they don't understand.
Those guys sounds like sexist assholes, don't they? Don't even try to be those guys.

I'm male and not at the centre of those worlds. Those are fictional characters. I'm as happy to play as a male or female character in a game. Most of my games seem to have female protagonists or character creation options. It probably depends on the kind of game you play. I'm playing a lot of adventure/PnC games at the moment.

This issue seems a tad overblown. Girls can play as guys and vice versa. Most murderers are male, most of the people in prison are male. Most of the game designers who make games about killing lots of people are male.

 

[ZehDon]

I was hoping it was a homage to the Four Musketeers, oh well.

I never made that connection. Holy. Shit. Can you imagine a Four Musketeers game with Assassin's Creed tech!?

 

[captainpat]

What about EVERY OTHER GAME that features a playable MALE CHARACTER ONLY made by all the other devs? (theres a LOT of them...)

Another AC another bunch of whiny babbies hating on it.

Did they not teach "two wrongs don't make a right" in kindergarten? Also people have been complaining about the lack of playable female characters for a while now.

 

[False Witness]

I don't think people are asking for a choice of a female Arno. I'm not, anyway. But the coop characters should offer a choice. They're just generic assassins, right?

No, the character on your screen is always Arno, whether you are playing co-op or SP.

 

[Ascenion]

Women are not represented in AC Unity. Gamers are free to call out that they are not represented. It is that easy.

That's a pretty bold claim to make. Just because your non customizable co-op character, that is always the protagonist from your view can't be a woman in no way at all implies or should lead you to that conclusion.

 

[KiraXD]

I don't think people are asking for a choice of a female Arno. I'm not, anyway. But the coop characters should offer a choice. They're just generic assassins, right?

No. Theyre all Arno... not generic assassins.

 

[Authority]

Damn Ubisoft never letting me play as a woman...

Another AC another bunch of whiny babbies hating on it.

How about you re-edit and be more respectful with people engaging in a conversation? This thread is not a console war playground.

 

[figadapaura]

I was hoping it was a homage to the Four Musketeers, oh well.

So many missed opportunities with this game.

Sigh.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh the narrative excuse. Yes, narratives and worlds are mainly build around white heterosexual males. We know that. That is the point. Now people, gamer and developer are demanding more. Are saying that more is possible. I really don't see why you are so much fighting against that.

It's not an excuse. And they're already giving us more. If revamped combat, parkour, , crowd mechanics, seamless co-op isn't enough for you. Do you not realize the implications here? They would have to recreate a rig that includes female animations. Everyone sees themselves as Arno, wouldn't it be suddenly strange to suddenly see Arno running in a much more feminine fashion all of a sudden? This isn't that type of game.

 

[KiraXD]

Did they not teach "two wrongs don't make a right" in kindergarten? Also people have been complaining about the lack of playable female characters for a while now.

you missed the point...

With all the OTHER games out there THIS is the one people are complaining about. Its not like Ubi ever let us play a a female lead though huh?

 

[Kuldar]

I don't think people are asking for a choice of a female Arno. I'm not, anyway. But the coop characters should offer a choice. They're just generic assassins, right?

No.
In co-op you are playing as Arno. Every one is playing as Arno. It's like Watch Dogs. They change the skin of the other players that you see. But other players see themself as Arno.

So yes, technically they could give a woman skin to another player, but no one will play as a womam.

 

[figadapaura]

you missed the point...

With all the OTHER games out there THIS is the one people are complaining about. Its not like Ubi ever let us play a a female lead though huh?

Yes, this is the one people are complaining about right now. It's not as if any other game has been complained about before.

 

[jon bones]

To all of those males here who are not able or interested to understand.

Imagine you are not the centre of the world and worlds, may they be Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Uncharted, God of War etc etc. are not build around you. You are an afterthought, at best.

You would want representation. Representation of the players, to use a marketing term, #4theplayers. Not more, not less.

Now imagine other gamers would tell you to shut up. To stop complaining for whatever strawman reasons. That they don't understand.
Those guys sounds like sexist assholes, don't they? Don't even try to be those guys.

They lack empathy, you won't convince anyone sadly:

"Every video game I've ever played has featured a white male, so I don't mind playing as a woman once in a while because I have always had so many options. Why don't women just play as men in every game?"

Maybe it was just Dragona doing work, but I feel like the average intelliegence of the posters in these threads is at an all time low.

Embarassing.

That is a horrible argument, dear god.

It's one of the most laughable posts I've read in a while.

 

[nynt9]

I don't think people are asking for a choice of a female Arno. I'm not, anyway. But the coop characters should offer a choice. They're just generic assassins, right?

No, they're all Arno. Every player joins coop with their own main character. I assume that it works like Saints Row, where the cutscenes only show one of them as the real main character.

 

[Kurdel]

This issue seems a tad overblown. Girls can play as guys and vice versa. Most murderers are male, most of the people in prison are male. Most of the game designers who make games about killing lots of people are male.

That is a horrible argument, dear god.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Trust me, no matter which game gets called out, you guys will always bring up the "but other games" strawman. It happens every single time. Just face it, you don't want it to be discussed to begin with.

Fuck off. Now you're just making bullshit baseless assumptions about me and ignoring facts so that you can broadly sweep people's opinions under the rug. You have no basis for your claims and are just trying to paint me as something I'm not.

You don't know me, so don't sit there and claim that you fucking do off a couple internet posts.

 

[KiraXD]

Yes, this is the one people are complaining about right now. It's not as if any other game has been complained about before.

but why does it matter now? If a company wants to make a story based on a male character... why does it HAVE to always have a female character involved?

Again... they tell stories... stories that dont HAVE to be shoehorned into a generic "include every sex/every race!" bubble...

 

[Kinyou]

What's so weird is that they already had plenty of female assassins. Be it in single player or multiplayer. So suddenly pulling the too much work excuse comes off as really odd. On the other hand can I not agree with that one tweet about how women and men move the same way. Just remember that awful femshep running animation in mass effect 3. That's what can happen when you translate those movements 1:1

 

[Yopis]

To be fair, if you go and look at his Twitter he's actually admitted that was a stupid thing to say - his point was that *in athletic motion* they walk the same way, but not in athletic motion they walk differently. And he said in a videogame you would be using athletic motion.

The problem is a) that point is probably still wrong, but fair enough it's considerably less pronounced and b) that AC is a game where you actually do spend an awful lot of it walking round in non-athletic motion.

So he basically said I was wrong but really I was right. Sadly he is still wrong. People shouldn't gloss over facts to make a point. Men and women move differently whats wrong about that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't think people are asking for a choice of a female Arno. I'm not, anyway. But the coop characters should offer a choice. They're just generic assassins, right?

In Watch Dogs, you always play as Aiden Pearce even during the seamless multiplayer modes.
Now apply that logic to Unity.

 

[Dryk]

What about EVERY OTHER GAME that features a playable MALE CHARACTER ONLY made by all the other devs? (theres a LOT of them...)

They get teased for it a ton too. But none of those devs gave the reasons that Ubisoft did.

Funnily enough their new official statement (everyone is the main character at all times) is perfectly fine and if they'd gone with it from the start there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[blast processed]

This issue seems a tad overblown. Girls can play as guys and vice versa. Most murderers are male, most of the people in prison are male. Most of the game designers who make games about killing lots of people are male.

Huh? In this case guys can't play as girls.

 

[Mindwipe]

So he basically said I was wrong but really I was right. Sadly he is still wrong. People shouldn't gloss over facts to make a point. Men and women move differently whats wrong about that.

Well, yeah, to be honest.

But just trying to be fair to him that he is at least being a bit more nuanced that the tweet in the OP suggests.

 

[figadapaura]

but why does it matter now? If a company wants to make a story based on a male character... why does it HAVE to always have a female character involved?

Again... they tell stories... stories that dont HAVE to be shoehorned into a generic "include every sex/every race!" bubble...

Well, if we're being realistic, having no female characters in the game at all would be ridiculous. The reason for this particular discussion is mainly because of Ubisoft's lame ass excuse.

 

[jcm]

No.
In co-op you are playing as Arno. Every one is playing as Arno. It's like Watch Dogs. They change the skin of the other players that you see. But other players see themself as Arno.

So yes, technically they could give a woman skin to another player, but no one will play as a womam.

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

In Watch Dogs, you always play as Aiden Pearce even during the seamless multiplayer modes.
Now apply that logic to Unity.

I haven't played wd. How so they handle the situation I described?

 

[Ol No Bones]

Is this really even worth discussing? Many many many games have few or no women in it. Its up to the devs. Is the idea that they are sexist or something? Is that really the complaint?

 

[jon bones]

Is this really even worth discussing?

Of course it is - why wouldn't half of all gamers want to be represented in games?

If you don't want to discuss it, don't post in the thread.

 

[Zok310]

What if the don't want to have a female in their game, its their game. Don't buy it don't play it.
I mean they could apologize for their comments when asked, but at the end of the day they have their vision for Unity and they are designing the game, their call.

 

[stupei]

What I really don't understand is that unless Ubisoft are suggesting that they have zero women anywhere in any of their crowds, they already have the vast majority of the animations for the female characters. All they would need to add are the assassin specific moves, which would be based on the same movements as their male counterparts, with just minor tweaks and changes.

That's it.

How is that remotely "double" the workload?

(Oh, wait. It's not.)

 

[figadapaura]

What's so weird is that they already had plenty of female assassins. Be it in single player or multiplayer. So suddenly pulling the too much work excuse comes off as really odd. On the other hand can I not agree with that one tweet about how women and men move the same way. Just remember that awful femshep running animation in mass effect 3. That's what can happen when you translate those movements 1:1

Do you mean 2? Because FemShep had her own animation in 3 and her run in 2 was awful.

 

[MJLord]

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

It's just a way to frame three people into the one person narrative.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It is what it is. It sucks but they're not in the game. If no females prevents you from not playing the game then play a game that has females. I've never looked at a game and said "No Doods!?!?!? Fuck it, I'm out!! I've also never said "there's girls!?!? I'm out". Seems like it's getting out of hand tbh.

Um, what?

People want games to represent the population on at least a somewhat equal basis. Compare the number of male protagonists to female protagonists in mainstream gaming and you might understand.

 

[saunderez]

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

The entire game is a memory. There is only 1 Arno. If multiple people jump into the replay of Arno's memory they are also Arno because it's Arno's memory. I'm not seeing what is such a stretch given how the entire game is based on ancestral memories and the Animus. You've always had limited freedom inside the Animus because you're reliving s memory, it makes total sense here.

 

[KiraXD]

Well, if we're being realistic, having no female characters in the game at all would be ridiculous. The reason for this particular discussion is mainly because of Ubisoft's lame ass excuse.

fair enough...

(obviously there will be female characters... and Ubi SHOULD have just said "play as ALL THE ARNOS!" to begin with... but i still find it irritating that people jump on them when they are one of the FEW devs that actually let you play as different races and sexes in their stories.)

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

My favorite part is the simple fact that they are one of the biggest, wealthiest developers in the world. If they can't do it, nobody can. Oh wait.

Its mind boggling. What's the point of build thousand man studios just to make excuses like its a few guys in a garage?

 

[Crossing Eden]

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

Yes it does make sense. Look at Watch Dogs for an example of how to make this idea work. The co-op missions are separate from the main story missions. They're called "Brotherhood Missions" that are spread across the map with varying difficulties and a co-op focus. You can even play them alone if you want.

 

[Outtrigger888]

So now developers must put females into there games or else they get backlash from the community? So developers can't make games how they want any more? They have to cater to everyone else. Same bullshit that happened to tomadachi life, Nintendo shouldn't have apologized but they are classy unlike a lot of gamers out there.

 

[figadapaura]

Is this really even worth discussing? Many many many games have few or no women in it. Its up to the devs. Is the idea that they are sexist or something? Is that really the complaint?

Yes.

 

[Kuldar]

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

Why do you think there will be a cutscene?

 

[Ramenman]

In Watch Dogs, you always play as Aiden Pearce even during the seamless multiplayer modes.
Now apply that logic to Unity.

Yeah clearly.

And nobody seems to ask for female character in multiplayer Watchdogs. They really messed up their communication about what "customization" means. It's really more about skill trees and moustaches than about creating your own character. Like watchdogs.

 

[Zok310]

This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.



I haven't played wd. How so they handle the situation I described?

It works with Watchdogs, and i think your PSN/Live handle replaces the title of Arno in coop.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

The "animation" excuse is complete bullshit obviously, but I do kinda get why they didn't want to make one of the co-op assassins female if they're all supposed to be the same guy (although I'm not sure why they're taking that route if they're marketing co-op as this game's gimmick but lolUbisoft).

 

[Wiktor]

You would want representation. Representation of the players, to use a marketing term, #4theplayers. Not more, not less.

Now imagine other gamers would tell you to shut up. To stop complaining for whatever strawman reasons. That they don't understand.
Those guys sounds like sexist assholes, don't they? Don't even try to be those guys.

I think it's fine to want more representation. But demanding it from specific games isn;t. That's bassicaly trampling on team's creative vision, demanding the whole game to be turned into generic product where everything is decided by marketing people and games too often already are close to exactly that.

Not to mention that it creates really shitty situation we have now, where hardly anyone is actually praising dev when a game has female lead, but are bashing those that don't. So we're bassicaly punishing people for doing nothing wrong (because even making a game with white dude isn't wrong), while at the same time not rewarding those that make an effort to include bigger variety.

 

[Neuromancer]

The fact that all 4 characters in co op are the same exact dude is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Who asked for that? They should have done a separate mode with co-op specific missions if you ask me. Not only would it not have been stupid, conceptually, but then you could have had a wider variety of characters to choose, or even the option to create and customize your own.

 

[ButchCat]

I'm all for featuring a female protagonist in AC (it's about time), but if they are going to do it, they have to do it right. Swapping a male assassin's head for that of a women and adding feminine features won't cut it for me. Animations have to be tailored to a female assassin. It's the reason why I never choose Femshep in the Mass Effect trilogy (despite the VO being more competent), the animation and mo-cap were all made with male Shepard in mind and then they added a female avatar, really off-putting.

 

[Ascenion]

The fact that all 4 characters in co op are the same exact dude is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Who asked for that? They should have done a separate mode with co-op specific missions if you ask me. Not only would it not have been stupid, conceptually, but then you could have had a wider variety of characters to choose, or even the option to create and customize your own.

Read the above posts about watch dogs. It works, quite well in fact and allows you to play seamlessly.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What I really don't understand is that unless Ubisoft are suggesting that they have zero women anywhere in any of their crowds, they already have the vast majority of the animations for the female characters. All they would need to add are the assassin specific moves, which would be based on the same movements as their male counterparts, with just minor tweaks and changes.

That's it.

How is that remotely "double" the workload?

(Oh, wait. It's not.)

The crowds use most simpler rigs than the main characters. Not only that. But imagine that you've been playing as Arno for the longest time, and suddenly you do a co-op mission and you're running in a feminine way because on another player's screen you're playing as a female. It just doesn't work. So no, they don't have a "vast majority of the animations for female characters."

 

[AlucardGV]

So now developers must put females into there games or else they get backlash from the community? So developers can't make games how they want any more? They have to cater to everyone else. Same bullshit that happened to tomadachi life, Nintendo shouldn't have apologized but they are classy unlike a lot of gamers out there.

well in tomodachi life it was just a marriage thing, nothing to work on it heavily. probably something you can fix in a couple of minutes.

in a game focused on a storyline it can be different

 

[figadapaura]

So now developers must put females into there games or else they get backlash from the community? So developers can't make games how they want any more? They have to cater to everyone else. Same bullshit that happened to tomadachi life, Nintendo shouldn't have apologized but they are classy unlike a lot of gamers out there.

Are you saying that including homosexual relationships would have dramatically changed the entire game? Or that not including them is a perfectly viable artistic choice?

(This isn't the same at all btw)

 

[Wiktor]

The fact that all 4 characters in co op are the same exact dude is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Who asked for that? They should have done a separate mode with co-op specific missions if you ask me. Not only would it not have been stupid, conceptually, but then you could have had a wider variety of characters to choose, or even the option to create and customize your own.

Right...devs complain they lack time to add one famale mode, but let's add whole separate mode with 4 characters and completely different missions, because then they would surely make the game in time, right?