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Developers call out Ubisoft on their stance regarding playable female characters

Karkador

Banned
I think it's fine to want more representation. But demanding it from specific games isn;t. That's bassicaly trampling on team's creative vision, demanding the whole game to be turned into generic product where everything is decided by marketing people and games too often already are close to exactly that.

How are people supposed to vocalize that demand? If people write about problems with representation in the abstract, people will say it's too vague and there need to be specific examples of what we can do (if this approach is even taken seriously at all).

If you name specific examples, then people accuse you of naming and shaming and trampling on creative freedom (which isn't even true).

So again, what's the proper way to do this?
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The fact that all 4 characters in co op are the same exact dude is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Who asked for that? They should have done a separate mode with co-op specific missions if you ask me. Not only would it not have been stupid, conceptually, but then you could have had a wider variety of characters to choose, or even the option to create and customize your own.
It's stupid conceptually if you don't know it works. You see yourself as the main character in your game but when you see other players they have different faces than you. It worked in Peace Walker, it worked in Watch Dogs, and it works here.
 
Of course it is - why wouldn't half of all gamers want to be represented in games?

If you don't want to discuss it, don't post in the thread.
Is the gaming population even close to 50/50 male and female? If I play a game like perfect dark should I as a man demand that I am represented. I have no problem with games having all sorts of characters with both genders. What I do have a problem with is people demanding that all games have both genders playable just because its the politically correct thing to do. It should always be up to the creators.
 
Right...devs complain they lack time to add one famale mode, but let's add whole separate mode with 4 characters and completely different missions, because then they would surely make the game in time, right? ;)
Well I'm not asking them to add it now, but if they had planned it from the beginning it might not have been impossible with their usual 35,000 developers in 400 different studios working on it.
 

Oersted

Member
It's not an excuse. And they're already giving us more. If revamped combat, parkour, , crowd mechanics, seamless co-op isn't enough for you. Do you not realize the implications here? They would have to recreate a rig that includes female animations. Everyone sees themselves as Arno, wouldn't it be suddenly strange to suddenly see Arno running in a much more feminine fashion all of a sudden? This isn't that type of game.

There are obviously some people who would like to play as a woman in AC Unity. Who want a little bit more. What is your problem again?

I'm male and not at the centre of those worlds. Those are fictional characters. I'm as happy to play as a male or female character in a game. Most of my games seem to have female protagonists or character creation options. It probably depends on the kind of game you play. I'm playing a lot of adventure/PnC games at the moment.

This issue seems a tad overblown. Girls can play as guys and vice versa. Most murderers are male, most of the people in prison are male. Most of the game designers who make games about killing lots of people are male.

Yes, there are games with female representation. The minority but they are there. You don't seem to have a problem with them, as a matter of fact you play them. Now people want one more game to be like this. That you have one more game to play as woman. Great, isn't it?

That's a pretty bold claim to make. Just because your non customizable co-op character, that is always the protagonist from your view can't be a woman in no way at all implies or should lead you to that conclusion.

Fuck off. Now you're just making bullshit baseless assumptions about me and ignoring facts so that you can broadly sweep people's opinions under the rug. You have no basis for your claims and are just trying to paint me as something I'm not.

You don't know me, so don't sit there and claim that you fucking do off a couple internet posts.

So far, you deflected criticism towards Ubisoft. Not in sake of gamers, in sake of Ubisoft. Feel free to explain why.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
The four characters are all Arno?

yDj6y.png
 

Karkador

Banned
Is the gaming population even close to 50/50 male and female? If I play a game like perfect dark should I as a man demand that I am represented. I have no problem with games having all sorts of characters with both genders. What I do have a problem with is people demanding that all games have both genders playable just because its the politically correct thing to do. It should always be up to the creators.

Its fine if you wanna demand male Joanna Dark, but let's not pretend that you're having as hard of a time finding male characters in every game.
 

Fliesen

Member
This issue seems a tad overblown. Girls can play as guys and vice versa.

doesn't mean they should have to, though

Calling out the industry for under-representation of what isn't actually a minority in real life isn't wrong or overblown. It doesn't mean they should immediately take action, rewrite their games to include female Asians and gay African-Americans, begging for the lynch mob's mercy.

but if they aren't being called out, we'll never see real diversity in our games.
Usually, devs tend to feel the need to "justify" having a non-white or non-male protagonist, which has the amazing side effect of them writing actual backstories for them.

just look at Watch_Dogs' Aiden Pearce or FarCry 3's Jason Brody. Can't get any more generic white male, really. Their backstories sum up to: "dead niece" and "rich parents".
 
I think it's fine to want more representation. But demanding it from specific games isn;t. That's bassicaly trampling on team's creative vision, demanding the whole game to be turned into generic product where everything is decided by marketing people and games too often already are close to exactly that.

This is basically my point of view as well. If increased diversity in representation can't happen organically and flow directly from the creative/artistic vision of the people making the game, then I'm not for it, sorry.

By the same token, if the creative and artistic vision of artists/writers/designers are being stifled by higher ups demanding less diversity in representation, I'd be against that as well.
 

Kuldar

Member
The four characters are all Arno?

yDj6y.png
Have you played at Watch Dogs?

Players see themselves as Arno, but they see other players as other characters.

In my opion, there are three assassins supporting characters and you see them when people are playing with you.
 

stupei

Member
The "animation" excuse is complete bullshit obviously, but I do kinda get why they didn't want to make one of the co-op assassins female if they're all supposed to be the same guy (although I'm not sure why they're taking that route if they're marketing co-op as this game's gimmick but lolUbisoft).

Honestly the point is that they could have probably explained it very clearly in a way that wouldn't have been (as) annoying, but it seems like the idea that someone would ask about why you can play as four white dudes and no other options... never crossed their mind. They didn't bother to have a logical correct answer ready because the idea that this would matter to anyone didn't occur to them. That's a pretty huge indicator about how important the idea of playable female characters actually is to them, and the fact that they would lie and suggest that it totally would have happened if only they had time and money is a big part of what's so annoying.

It reminds me of the Tomb Raider PR a few years ago bringing up sexual assault imagery like that's a great selling point. It just suggests a lot about how the people talking view gender in the context of their game world, especially when it doesn't actually line up with the reality of the game's design.

Why bring up the animation issues at all if the characters aren't especially customizable in multiplayer and their appearance doesn't matter? Because apparently the first impulse was to pay lip-service to the idea of equality while actually not giving a shit or fully considering the implications.

The crowds use most simpler rigs than the main characters. Not only that. But imagine that you've been playing as Arno for the longest time, and suddenly you do a co-op mission and you're running in a feminine way because on another player's screen you're playing as a female. It just doesn't work. So no, they don't have a "vast majority of the animations for female characters."

What about the other secondary characters? Not a single woman there? No walking animations mocap'd AT ALL with women? Okay. Sure.

And I'm not even sure what you would consider running in a feminine way, so I'm not sure how to respond to that. But for example the characters in the multiplayer primarily all run the same way and the differences are mostly aesthetic because otherwise it would create an unbalanced multiplayer. Men and women, functionally, run the same in AC.
 
Is the gaming population even close to 50/50 male and female? If I play a game like perfect dark should I as a man demand that I am represented. I have no problem with games having all sorts of characters with both genders. What I do have a problem with is people demanding that all games have both genders playable just because its the politically correct thing to do. It should always be up to the creators.

Who is demanding this?
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
How are people supposed to vocalize that demand? If people write about problems with representation in the abstract, people will say it's too vague and there need to be specific examples of what we can do (if this approach is even taken seriously at all).

If you name specific examples, then people accuse you of naming and shaming and trampling on creative freedom (which isn't even true).

So again, what's the proper way to do this?
Maybe not target a game series that has one of the most racially diverse casts in all of gaming history. Not to mention the fact that it also has had tons of female playable characters including a game that had a female main character story which also got an HD re-release. Which i'm kind of wondering how many people here complaining about this game(when it's evident that they don't understand how it works in the first place) actually bought.
 
The one thing that confuses me about this is that every Assassin's Creed since Brotherhood has had to do animation for male and female characters due to the multiplayer. Why is this far harder?
 
AC main protagonist never are an historical personnage. So they would not use Marie-Anne Charlotte de Corday d’Armont as a main character. Plus she was executed in 1793 so they wouldn't be able to cover some part of the Terror during the French Revolution.

I wasn't saying that to preclude the inclusion of a female character. I was just pointing out you never play the famous person. Of course there can be female assassins, regardless of whether there was a famous historical female at that place and time. That quote is just meaningless though.
I was not expecting this misunderstanding. I was never representing that the player should control that particular woman and I don't believe the tweet I was referring to was suggesting that either.

But the fact that the most famous assassin in the period was a woman is not irrelevant to a multiplayer assassin game set in that period.
 

Kinyou

Member
Considering that you're always playing as Arno it makes more sense now. Maybe they could make one of the coop partners appear as female to the other players but that wouldn't help anyone who actually wants to play as female.
 
There are obviously some people who would like to play as a woman in AC Unity. Who want a little bit more. What is your problem again?



Yes, there are games with female representation. The minority but they are there. You don't seem to have a problem with them, as a matter of fact you play them. Now people want one more game to be like this. That you have one more game to play as woman. Great, isn't it?





So far, you deflected criticism towards Ubisoft. Not in sake of gamers, in sake of Ubisoft. Feel free to explain why.
Because there are many, many series in video games with little to no representations of minorities and women as playable characters and people are trying to rally against one of the only series that does. I don't even like the Assassin's Creed series and I know it's got one of the most diverse sets in main characters in all of video games right now. It makes no sense to target them when historically they're far better at addressing what you're complaining about then most companies are.
 
Just random "gaming specialists" twitter accounts trying to create humankind defense causes so they can reach 10,000 followers.
It's true, no one actually or genuinely cares about this topic. Thank God we can easily dismiss it then.

Who cares? I am so sick of this PC bull shit, and I'm disappointed that it has reached gaming. They can make whatever games they like, and if you don't like it don't buy it.
What a useless fucking question to ask in a thread full of people who obviously care enough post. Also, please feel free to elaborate on "this PC bull shit" and what all that entails, or why minority representation in media doesn't matter.

I agree with you, but word of warning, I've seen people banned around here for the same "they can do what they want" attitude. Best to keep it under your hat. Makes for a one sided discussion but honestly not worth the ban.
People don't get banned for saying they believe it should be the developers choice, they get banned because they wrap it up in "who cares?" and "this isn't important" and other such bullshit that's disrespectful to the people in the discussion, contributes fucking nothing, and is generally a way of just trying to dismiss valid discussion instead of engaging in it. Feel free to contact a mod if you're so concerned.

Oh-My-God-Who-The-Hell-Cares-Gif-On-Family-Guy.gif


If no woman lead is present. If homosexuality is not possible. Why is this important to anyone!? We are talking video games here.
Yes, we are taking about video games. You know, a form of media that we as a community have been passionately defending as art and expression. Saying "who cares" is not only ignorant of all the poodle in this thread who care enough to post, or why these issues matter, but it also argues against games as art. "It's just videogames" implies they can't or shouldn't have anything meaningful to say, that they're toys.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but

so what?

As consumers and game players its not our job to think about some companies ROI in terms of deciding what we want. Nobody goes "well I wish there were more space shooters but I guess they just have to keep making COD clones, oh well", they well fucking complain "no stop making so many goddamn COD clones". People feel entitled to talk about all other kinds of creative decisions and bitch and moan at how developers aren't catering to them, but all of the sudden when something like female characters gets involved all the "why are we talking about this", "its not a big deal to meeee" bullshit gets trotted out
Pretty well sums up my feelings on the attitude that we shouldn't criticize game companies on these issues, ignoring we do it for everything else.
 

jcm

Member
The entire game is a memory. There is only 1 Arno. If multiple people jump into the replay of Arno's memory they are also Arno because it's Arno's memory. I'm not seeing what is such a stretch given how the entire game is based on ancestral memories and the Animus. You've always had limited freedom inside the Animus because you're reliving s memory, it makes total sense here.

It makes no sense in the framework of the game. The animus allows you to relive the memory of your ancestor. You can't relive the memory of the same person in four different ways.

Why do you think there will be a cutscene?

It's AC. There's always a cutscene. You kill the guy. The cut scene starts. He offeres his (usually helpful) last words. You tell him to requiescat in pace. He dies. the cut scene ends, and you run away while the bell is ringing.
 

Wiktor

Member
The one thing that confuses me about this is that every Assassin's Creed since Brotherhood has had to do animation for male and female characters due to the multiplayer. Why is this far harder?

They supposedly remade everything from scrath this time. Brotherhood wasn;t the first game in the series afterall. They could do more, because they were building on previous two games' foundation. Here they are making those foundations. I mean, what they are doing is obviously an enourmous effort. Lack of traditional competitive multiplayer shows that pretty clearly.

I fully expect female assassins in co-op and return of regular multiplayer in the future, just not in the first truly next-gen entry in the franchise.
 
Because there are many, many series in video games with little to no representations of minorities and women as playable characters and people are trying to rally against one of the only series that does. I don't even like the Assassin's Creed series and I know it's got one of the most diverse sets in main characters in all of video games right now. It makes no sense to target them when historically they're far better at addressing what you're complaining about then most companies are.

I think this is also one of the main reasons for complaints tbh. They've shown in the past that they can do better, but still came out with a dumb excuse so they're getting shit for it.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
What about the other secondary characters? Not a single woman there? No walking animations mocap'd AT ALL with women? Okay. Sure.

And I'm not even sure what you would consider running in a feminine way, so I'm not sure how to respond to that. But for example the characters in the multiplayer primarily all run the same way and the differences are mostly aesthetic because otherwise it would create an unbalanced multiplayer. Men and women, functionally, run the same in AC.
First of no. We haven't seen the cast of characters but there's always been female characters in this series before. Female characters have always had different rigs from the main character in AC games. That's just how it is. Also, they've always mo-capped different running animations for female MP characters in the series. Women and men walk/run/jog differently. It's how anatomy works. And that especially has to come through in animation. A complex female rig is different from a complex male rig. So yes. They would have to create new motion capture and keyframed run/walk cycles for a character rig that is just as complex as Arno. Except that doesn't work, because you always play as Arno. And it would be jarring to suddenly move differently unless there is a major compromise in animation quality and we get animations that don't look as fluid as they do on a male character. Which btw, Jonathan Cooper stated.
 
Its fine if you wanna demand male Joanna Dark, but let's not pretend that you're having as hard of a time finding male characters in every game.
I don't want a male Joanna Dark and that would be a stupid thing if I did. Why? Because the game was designed with female Joanna Dark.
 
Just because a one size fits all rig works for one developer doesn't mean it does from another. I really don't appreciate the naivete of some developers saying, "Well this should be easy!" without any understanding of the work pipelines for the specific engine being used. I've worked for Ubi and for them it's going to be a whole new set of mo-capped animations, etc. It's a bit more than a drop in the hat.

All that said, the realities of the situation are as follows:

1) They should have been upfront with their reasons. Games are a creative endeavor. If they don't want to include a female assassin for a narrative reason, just say, "We didn't feel that a female assassin fit the narrative we were trying to tell." Still going to get backlash there, sure, but I agree with some of the other posters in this thread that have made the argument of it being ridiculous to 'require' there to be a female character.

2) It likely wasn't narrative, but instead an assessment of cost/benefit analysis and swinging the pendulum too far. Nothing more, nothing less. AC sells to a predominantly male demographic. Let's not forget that Ubi did have an AC title with an African American Female protagonist. It was also the worst selling in the entire franchise, despite an HD re-release on multiple platforms. If there was talk of a female assassin, it was likely shot down with sales figures and survey data. Not saying its right, not saying it was a good choice, but if I had to made an educated guess as to why, it's this.
 

saunderez

Member
It makes no sense in the framework of the game. The animus allows you to relive the memory of your ancestor. You can't relive the memory of the same person in four different ways.
Did you play ACIV? Abstergo was commodotizing these experiences. In every AC game an individuals experience could be different but it always led to the same conclusion. Is it a stretch to think Abstergo developed a way to allow multiple people to experience a memory simultaneously. Absolutely not.
 
Late to the realization, but was not aware all four characters in co-op were supposed to be the main character. Why that idea made more sense to them than allowing females and customization is beyond me so I'll just see myself out.
 

Wiktor

Member
Well I'm not asking them to add it now, but if they had planned it from the beginning it might not have been impossible with their usual 35,000 developers in 400 different studios working on it.
Propably would be, at least if they want the project to be profitable.
Look at it this way, there's no competitive MP, which has been a staple of the whole IP for the last four entries in the series. This shows how tight they scheudles and budgets are. Especially since let's be honest..Unity has zero chances of selling as much as AC3-4 did, not with next-gen userbases being as small as they are now.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's AC. There's always a cutscene. You kill the guy. The cut scene starts. He offeres his (usually helpful) last words. You tell him to requiescat in pace. He dies. the cut scene ends, and you run away while the bell is ringing.
That's not how it works in this game. They changed that aspect of the game. And the MP co-op mission targets are not the same as the SP mission targets. Did the people complaining about these things read or watch any interviews about the game? I'm genuinely curious because so many in this thread are completely misinformed about many aspects of the game so far.
 

Karkador

Banned
Maybe not target a game series that has one of the most racially diverse casts in all of gaming history. Not to mention the fact that it also has had tons of female playable characters including a game that had a female main character story which also got an HD re-release. Which i'm kind of wondering how many people here complaining about this game(when it's evident that they don't understand how it works in the first place) actually bought.

I doubt this
 

Kinyou

Member
black flag had female character animations for the mp. Why not use those?
Going by the preview material it looks like all the animations have been redone from the ground up. They also kicked out the classic MP mode.

Still not really a valid excuse since they have so many resources. The explanation that it's not worth it because all players see themselves as Arno at all times makes more sense.
 

Raven77

Member
It's pretty ridiculous to say that a developer should be shunned or called out for not including a particular gender. It is, and should always be, their creative choice as an artist to include and exclude whatever they choose.

Art forms like film, stage performances, video game design, traditional art, etc. shouldn't be forced to show gender equality. If a painter enjoys painting only males, it is his freedom and choice to continue only painting males. It also doesn't mean in the slightest that he doesn't respect and appreciate women.

This is a very slippery slope and I'm not sure where it would end.
 
I think this is also one of the main reasons for complaints tbh. They've shown in the past that they can do better, but still came out with a dumb excuse so they're getting shit for it.
No, there are plenty of people in here throwing the whole series under the bus and acting like this series has the same problem as any other series.

Plus, while it was a dumb excuse, it's still pointless to chastise these guys because they made a game with a white male character when they've shown more diversity almost all other AAA game series right now. It's crazy to me that out of every series people could have targeted for this (Including the Journalist who asked the question), people are picking one of the worst examples they possibly could to make their point. Wouldn't it make far more sense to ask this question to developers who never include minorities and women in their games instead of getting on one of the only developers that does just because they didn't choose to this time?
 

luca_aros

Neo Member
HAHA! Love this comment so much!

Pewbert 45 minutes ago
Why is this a problem for anyone? When I play Tomb Raider or Mirrors Edge I don't scream and cry because I want a male character to play as. It's these male feminists attention seeking again. They don't give a damn about real female problems (The Middle East for example).
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
black flag had female character animations for the mp. Why not use those?
Because this game has been built completely from the ground up and doesn't reuse any assets from the previous games. The parkour mechanics are completely different now because they the building in the game are 1:1 scale to real life compared to the old games where they were made with 1:3 scale. Not only that, but the character models are also more complex. It's not that simple as just reusing female animations from the main game.
 
Let's not forget that Ubi did have an AC title with an African American Female protagonist. It was also the worst selling in the entire franchise, despite an HD re-release on multiple platforms. If there was talk of a female assassin, it was likely shot down with sales figures and survey data. Not saying its right, not saying it was a good choice, but if I had to made an educated guess as to why, it's this.
I assume because the Vita versions of Killzone and CoD were also the worst selling versions no one cares about them either.

A more relevant pattern I've seen in relation to this is that people don't seem to be interested in buying HD ports of handheld games.
 

Ramenman

Member
This doesn't make sense. So four of us are playing. We all think we are Arno, and there's three other guys helping out. Then one of us succeeds in killing the target, and the cutscene starts with the last words, and Arno is standing there listening, even though he didn't make the kill in three people's game? I must be missing something, because that sounds really dumb.

The fact that all 4 characters in co op are the same exact dude is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Who asked for that? They should have done a separate mode with co-op specific missions if you ask me. Not only would it not have been stupid, conceptually, but then you could have had a wider variety of characters to choose, or even the option to create and customize your own.

I'm entirely OK if people think it's stupid. I don't necessarily agree, but that I can understand.

Actually I wish this was a thread about people saying that having 4 Arnos in co-op is stupid, rather than a thread about devs getting called out for sexism when their biggest fault is that they didn't clearly explain what's going on in their game and promo material :p

Edit : And their weird animation excuse makes it even easier for the subject to catch fire and go off on the wrong tracks. Maybe they didn't even understand how much people were mislead about the game when they made those statements. It was a bit stupid of them.
 

stupei

Member
Propably would be, at least if they want the project to be profitable.
Look at it this way, there's no competitive MP, which has been a staple of the whole IP for the last four entries in the series. This shows how tight they scheudles and budgets are. Especially since let's be honest..Unity has zero chances of selling as much as AC3-4 did, not with next-gen userbases being as small as they are now.

You're not really helping their argument by treating an entire gender like something expendable like multiplayer and dynamic cloth physics.

No, there are plenty of people in here throwing the whole series under the bus and acting like this series has the same problem as any other series.

Plus, while it was a dumb excuse, it's still pointless to chastise these guys because they made a game with a white male character when they've shown more diversity almost all other AAA game series right now. It's crazy to me that out of every series people could have targeted for this (Including the Journalist who asked the question), people are picking one of the worst examples they possibly could to make their point. Wouldn't it make far more sense to ask this question to developers who never include minorities and women in their games instead of getting on one of the only developers that does just because they didn't choose to this time?

Most of the people who made those diverse games are no longer there. It's not like the entire company gets to be exempt from any criticism from now on because other people who formerly worked there did something better in the past than they're doing it now.
 
Because they want to be able to play as a female character. I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark and assume you're a man and representation has never been an issue for you.
I already said I was a man (as if thats a bad thing) and I said it would be ridiculous for me to clamor for a male version of Joanna Dark. All this will become is games designed with a protagonist in mind and the the opposite gender tagged on for whatever reason. I don't care if the character is male or female I just think creators should make that decision and not use precious resources to do something just because the PC police think its best.
 
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