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Will discussion of certain games be banned on Neogaf from here on out?

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W

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
213372bu said:
I'm just wondering if people like Tom believe if videos of sexual abuse of children are infact art and what his thoughts on it are.
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Nothing that directly harms another human being should ever be tolerated, in the name of art or otherwise. The second you involve actual people, that's where I personally draw the line. To me, that's simply common sense.

Note, though, that I consider no fictional work to even be CAPABLE of directly harming another human being. As I've said a few times now, I believe that art can only inspire someone to do wrong if they were already inclined to do so. Well-adjusted individuals will never be turned into criminals by works of art.

-Tom
 
C

Crayons

Banned
213372bu said:
Well, it's kinda funny about that. Because the ESRB dictates what's exactly in the game and it even has a suggested rating for that. Parents, who aren't exactly into gaming or feel the need to delve into matters whether to see what game has certain content.

The ESRB makes that job easier by stating what is exactly in the game. The cool thing is, that ESRB doesn't say whether one should buy the game because of said content, rather it helps parents as said earlier.

By saying such an organization shouldn't exist as to people of all ages being exposed to all content as it leads to a "healthier" environment is really bizzare. Another thing is bizzare is that Tom says he approves of all forms of art, and that all things created are art and should be experienced.

I'm just wondering if people like Tom believe if videos of sexual abuse of children are infact art and what his thoughts on it are.
Click to expand...
The ESRB & other rating boards for video games, movies etc. DO affect what the artist intended to show in their video game or movie. Things will be cut out in order to not get the dreaded AO rating. Just by existing they are a form of censorship. Not to mention, it's incredibly ineffective. How many parents actually check the ratings before buying games for their kids? Not very many. Those who care enough can just Google the games to find what they're about and they should be satisfied with that. At best, the ESRB only stops adult gamers from buying games.

And SMH on the bolded.
 
S

Scrooge McDuck

Member
Yuuichi said:
My point was that your argument is incredibly flimsy because it relies not on the depiction itself, but on arbitrary information you're presented about the depiction.
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I know next to nothing about this game besides the image presented in this thread and was not planning on joining in, bit this comment rather frustrates me.

I realize that I'm most likely a minority in this, but I'm really bad at assigning values to visual cues without context or comparison. So it's rather grating to see people talking like this is common sense. You say that relying on arbitrary information is flimsy, but how is depending solely on the depiction itself any less arbitrary or flimsy?

How does that look remotely human? How do you even begin to determine the comparative ratio to a real human being? What parameter do you use? I honestly, unironically, seriously feels that this is akin to saying that "Lamborghini looks underage and Ferrari looks old" and frankly it just sounds like nonsense.

Again, I'm most likely a minority on this and probably just not right in the head. I just need to get that out of my chest.
 
M

Mik317

Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Sorry guys but I'm laughing at half the avatars ITT.



image.php





image.php




image.php
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Because AnimeAvatar = You like this game / lolis

I already said, I have a hard time defending this game. I still don't like the precedent it sets.

wow never expected a mod to fall victim to the whole avatar judgement thing.
 
C

collige

Banned
Krejlooc said:
The guy in my example consented to being executed. he willingly forfeited his freedoms. Or are you saying (dun dun dun) that people don't have the freedom to choose to die?
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, they don't. The only case where it's ever remotely acceptable is when they've been certified to be terminally ill by a medical professional and even then it's a huge debate. Otherwise, choosing to die is legal grounds to get you institutionalized.
 
P

Ponn

Banned
213372bu said:
Well, it's kinda funny about that. Because the ESRB dictates what's exactly in the game and it even has a suggested rating for that. Parents, who aren't exactly into gaming or feel the need to delve into matters whether to see what game has certain content.

The ESRB makes that job easier by stating what is exactly in the game. The cool thing is, that ESRB doesn't say whether one should buy the game because of said content, rather it helps parents as said earlier.

By saying such an organization shouldn't exist as to people of all ages being exposed to all content as it leads to a "healthier" environment is really bizzare. Another thing is bizzare is that Tom says he approves of all forms of art, and that all things created are art and should be experienced..
Click to expand...

Yea, some things he is saying I can agree with but the ESRB is one of the ones I disagree one after working retail. If anything I feel parents don't take advantage of the easy parenting tool they are given with the ESRB.

"Mame are you sre you want to buy GTA for your kid. Its rated M and I can't even see your kid standing there on the other side of the counter he is so you...:

"JUST DO YOUR JOB AND RING IT UP AND DON'T TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY KID!'

okey dokey
 
Relativ9

Relativ9

Member
Mik317 said:
and this is exactly why some are worried about this precedent.

If Criminal Girls is the line fine...but if it begins to move to other perverted games..is where I think many get worried.
Click to expand...

I very spesifically mentioned underage childeren, sexualised content is (in my opinion) fine, i'd prefer if it served the story or gameplay of any given game, but in the immortal word of Mick ; "You can't always get what you want".

My problem is with morally reprihensible and frankly illegal content of a pedophelic nature. Lets be honest, the only reason this stuff isnt illegal is because western laws have yet to include cartoon depictions in the list of banned content. Just because there isnt a real world victim here doesn't mean the content itself should be any less reprihensible. IMO.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
wyrdwad said:
I don't believe any art should ever be considered taboo, nor that anyone -- regardless of age or sensitivity -- should ever be restricted from viewing any work of art.

I believe that the mere existence of taboos is what causes most of society's problems -- if we were completely frank and open and exposed everyone to every aspect of the human condition from the very day they could learn to comprehend it all, I firmly believe the world would be a better place. Half of all crime is spawned by those who know they're doing something "naughty" or "forbidden" and get a rush from doing so... but if nothing were naughty or forbidden or taboo, there would be no rush, and therefore -- in my own armchair philosophy, at least -- there would be less inclination to commit crimes.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of our taboos regarding sexuality, artistic depictions thereof, and minors being exposed to them are at least questionable, but art that blatantly sexualizes minors? Or that glorifies sexual violence? Nah, I don't support it being banned, but I don't think an instinctive revulsion is unwarranted.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Easton Dark said:
How many penises does it take to get a drawing banned from a museum.
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Four.

You should probably go back and re-read my comment if you want a non-sarcastic answer. Because that wasn't my point in the slightest.

collige said:
Generally speaking, they don't. The only case where it's ever remotely acceptable is when they've been certified to be terminally ill by a medical professional and even then it's a huge debate. Otherwise, choosing to die is legal grounds to get you institutionalized.
Click to expand...

K. Then pretend the guy is terminally ill.
 
W

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Krejlooc said:
The guy in my example consented to being executed. he willingly forfeited his freedoms. Or are you saying (dun dun dun) that people don't have the freedom to choose to die?
Click to expand...

All right, I'll play along.

If this is clearly documented, and the person willingly forfeited his freedoms beyond a shadow of a doubt, then OK. I say go for it, dude.

-Tom
 
B

Brakke

Banned
wyrdwad said:
I would, because I don't believe for a second that that's true. Art, as far as I'm concerned, can never make anyone do anything they wouldn't have already been inclined to do in the first place.
Click to expand...

Nobody is born naturally inclined to drive a car made of steel melted out of a mountain to a big glass box where they sit at a computer clacking away all day in exchange for some slips of green tree pulp--or more likely in exchange for some electrons moving around, representing those slips.

Everything anybody ever does is learned.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Zabant said:
Let me throw out a few questions and thoughts.

If the characters in these games were very obviously fully-grown and adult women, and the discussion is pretty much in line with the previous Criminal Girl threads; in that they mostly involved discussion about the sexual pandering parts and "this game is for pervs/why does this exist?" would the moderation team object people to making threads about the game?

Is the issue here that the characters look like children or that there is sexual pandering and that's mostly what is being discussed?

I personally find the sexualization of children and teenagers that is present in a small number of Japanese games (Hyperdimension Neptunia etc) to be, well more than a little creepy, but it's obviously there for a reason and it does not seem like it's going to stop.

For example there's a scene in Persona 3 (Fantastic game IMO) that some people would argue is more than a little eyebrow raising.

As long as stuff like this is in games then this is going to be an issue and people are going to discuss it, whether that be in disgust or approval. Banning discussion on certain games outright is a very blunt and imprecise way to deal with the problem and sets a very bad precedent for the future.

I understand that the moderation team does not want to deal with threads involving arguments about pedophilia or threads that have lots of NSFW images posted, but I would argue for clear cut rules that allow for discussion of the game as a whole, but not the controversial and thread derailing conversations within.

Something like "If a game has scenes of a (particular) questionable nature, please refrain from posting images or video of these scenes or derailing discussion so that they are the main topic.

and to back that up if mods don't want discussion of a certain subject like pedophilia as it leads to shit threads:

"Do not makes threads solely discussing scenes of a (particular) questionable nature within a certain game"
Click to expand...
Persona 3 spoilers-
Yukari and the MC didn't have sex. The whole point was for the Temptation to make them fall prey and be killed while having sex.
 
J

JDSN

Banned
wyrdwad said:
I would, because I don't believe for a second that that's true. Art, as far as I'm concerned, can never make anyone do anything they wouldn't have already been inclined to do in the first place.
Click to expand...

SenorArdilla said:
You know that this is the same argument people make about violent video games, right?
Click to expand...

That argument is based on nothing, my question is based on research. That is the reason why people are so confused when some here keep bringing up GTA V and other games, not only is the jury still out on those, the crime is different and in certain games its actually handled like the abhorrent act it. You might not believe on it, Tom, but a lot of health care professionals do including me have seen the opposite, are you saying that decades of analysis and trumped by a hunch you have?
 
Northeastmonk

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
Briarios said:
I have zero problems with topics on this game being banned. It's creepy to me, but I'm fine with other people playing it -- to each their own.

However, what irritates me to no end is this concept that teens, even early teens, are somehow filled with the "innocence of youth." Bullshit.

I've worked with kids -- a lot of kids, 12 to 18 ... that innocence thing is a load of malarkey. You can't impose innocence on people. For the vast majority of human history, people were getting married the moment they went through puberty. This whole suddenly someone is 18 and then they're an adult thing is totally a social construct ... it's arbitrary, random, and creates a whole host of social issues.

It's fine to stick with the whole under the age of consent thing; I get that, it's breaking the law and social mores. But, the whole innocence thing is just ludicrous ... heck, look at those girls with the Slender thing -- that shows you exactly how violence and horror in games can affect some kids. But, I'm sorry, sex will never be as "dangerous" to people as violence.

And, suggesting that these games attracts felons more than something like Grand Theft Auto or, hell, Madden, is ludicrous and unsubstantiated.
Click to expand...

I do not believe that people under 18 are innocent. In terms of sexual content and how the states feel about it, it is wrong. According to the state, any act (regardless of their own decision) committed to a minor (under the age of 18) is illegal. The state does not see this "no harm done" principle. Those who have this certain interest start out by searching, then it may lead to other illegal acts. In terms of criminals playing GTAV, I feel as though the audience it attracts is much larger because it provides a satire crime game with a plot. If such material appeared in GTA, then they would be the person being beat up or killed virtually. LA Noire did that, if anyone remembers that mission.
 
E

Ennoia

Banned
Krejlooc said:
EDIT: Also, this might not be fair, but I feel the urge to point it out - you really shouldn't have pointed out you worked for XSeed in a previous post. I know you said you speak for yourself, not your company, but I was oblivious as to where you worked before you brought it to my attention, even if it's in your tag. As such, I can't help but think less of XSeed for employing someone who would defend the right for this kind of trash to exist, all in the name of artistic expression.
Click to expand...

Hey pal, I work for Chinese government in charge of some kind of video game censorship, I agree with Tom and admire him have a job to localize game instead of censor or deny it, I think he is doing a perfect job to support artistic expression.
 
2

213372bu

Banned
Ponn01 said:
Yea, some things he is saying I can agree with but the ESRB is one of the ones I disagree one after working retail. If anything I feel parents don't take advantage of the easy parenting tool they are given with the ESRB.

"Mame are you sre you want to buy GTA for your kid. Its rated M and I can't even see your kid standing there on the other side of the counter he is so you...:

"JUST DO YOUR JOB AND RING IT UP AND DON'T TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY KID!'

okey dokey
Click to expand...

Same.

wyrdwad said:
Nothing that directly harms another human being should ever be tolerated, in the name of art or otherwise. The second you involve actual people, that's where I personally draw the line. To me, that's simply common sense.

Note, though, that I consider no fictional work to even be CAPABLE of directly harming another human being. As I've said a few times now, I believe that art can only inspire someone to do wrong if they were already inclined to do so. Well-adjusted individuals will never be turned into criminals by works of art.

-Tom
Click to expand...
What if it was the exact things shown and done in reality, just imaginational and drawn out?

Would it then turn good?
 
J

justsomeguy

Member
aspiegamer said:
I'd like some clarification as well, just so it's out there in writing and a known device...

am curious if there's some kind of official policy shift here. "When ModBot says so" isn't terribly scientific"

..

I'm not sure why that automatically brings it to 'no more threads about this game'.
Click to expand...

Goldenroad said:
I'm gonna go out a limb and say I'm pro-moderation on GAF.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this for me. Neogaf has to be moderated, you cant get away from that reality.

The parameters of that moderation are for the boss man and the mod team to decide.

But for me I struggle to know what will and won't violate the ToS. You think you do, but then you see people banned for innocuous comments or others not banned when they've said the same kind of thing that once earned me a 2 week break. A little more precise guidance would be wonderful.
 
W

Wazzy

Banned
Dragonborn said:
Identify them as what? Fans of anime?

How does Zoro and Link indicate anything?
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of generalizing but everyone defending these kind of disgusting games always has anime or Moe avatars and it's pretty fair to think it's probably because they feel like what they enjoy is being attacked.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
wyrdwad said:
All right, I'll play along.

If this is clearly documented, and the person willingly forfeited his freedoms beyond a shadow of a doubt, then OK. I say go for it, dude.

-Tom
Click to expand...

Ah, thus your qualification for art is anything that doesn't harm anybody. So long as everybody is ok with something, it's art, then.

You'll understand if few people share such an excessively broad definition of art. Much less use that definition in defense of producing games like this.

Ennoia said:
Hey pal, I work for Chinese government in charge of some kind of video game censorship, I agree with Tom and admire him have a job to localize game instead of censor or deny it, I think he is doing a perfect job to support artistic expression.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I'm a content creator myself. Nice to meet you!
 
F

fedexpeon

Banned
wyrdwad said:
It isn't. If I may be perfectly honest (and speak entirely for myself, not representing XSEED in even the remotest way), I'd prefer there exist no ratings board whatsoever, that no platform-holder ever turned down any game for any reason, and that no content was ever denied from existing in any work of art, no matter how reprehensible it may be.

In other words, I hope one day for complete, worldwide artistic anarchy.

I don't believe any art should ever be considered taboo, nor that anyone -- regardless of age or sensitivity -- should ever be restricted from viewing any work of art.

I believe that the mere existence of taboos is what causes most of society's problems -- if we were completely frank and open and exposed everyone to every aspect of the human condition from the very day they could learn to comprehend it all, I firmly believe the world would be a better place. Half of all crime is spawned by those who know they're doing something "naughty" or "forbidden" and get a rush from doing so... but if nothing were naughty or forbidden or taboo, there would be no rush, and therefore -- in my own armchair philosophy, at least -- there would be less inclination to commit crimes.

I know this is entirely impractical, but I am an idealist of sorts, and I will continue to do everything in my power to work toward this ideal of a world in which, quite literally, nothing is sacred.

-Tom
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with you, but more in the sense of the economic side.
Restricting access to something will create a desire of wanting something that is considered forbidden.

This is why I want the government to legalize gambling, drugs, and sex for taxation.
The government can create a lot of tax revenues from these activities to support social projects such as universal healthcare, and education improvements.
Would society be morally bankrupt by allowing these things to be legal?
I don't think so since people will always try to be a good person to fit in with society ideal of civilization.
Maybe there will be additional benefits like a reduction in drug wars, money laundering, and human trafficking activities.
But we will never know until we try.

I also want to lower the drinking age to 10-12 as well. If your parents teach you that drinking isn't special, and allowing you to drink early, there will be no rush at 21 to binge drinking, or illegality trying to get beers in your high school year.
But because our society hypes up drinking and being 21, too many kids try to do it early to experience it without guidance from theirs parents.
I know my culture allows me to drink at an early age, and when I was growing up in America, drinking was meh to me since it wasn't consider special or a privilege to reach a certain age.
So many tragedies can be avoided by educating your kids on how to drink, but since these kids are 21, they have "free-will" from theirs parents.

So yeah, making stuff legal will destroy that sense of rush and yearning for restricted stuff.
Smoking and lotto are highly taxed, and we should apply that standard on to more illegal activities for our overall economics and society benefits.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
My immediate thought is if the game can be sold in an official capacity then it should be reasonable to be able to discuss on GAF. Looking up footage of it however and uh, yeah, it's amazing to see it's going to see international release at all.

"Don't make further threads for this game." - NeoGAF makes for a great box quote though.

I bet GameFAQs has no qualms with it, let's see what they're up to. Oh, already a thread about GAF there, hah.

Jintor said:
On this we disagree, friend Chet
Click to expand...
You deny yourself true joy.
 
Boss Mog

Boss Mog

Member
freenudemacusers said:
many celebrated artists have painted underaged women and it's celebrated as culturally significant and discussed in our most prestigious universities, but a no-name artist works on a video game and it's scorned.
Click to expand...


Maybe so but I doubt they were being sexually punished at the time. There's a difference between nudity and sex.

This game would be gross even if it didn't have girls that look 8 but the fact that it does makes it so disgusting that it's probably best not to sully NeoGAF with threads about it.
 
S

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Sorry guys but I'm laughing at half the avatars ITT.



image.php





image.php




image.php
Click to expand...

Okay, this shit pisses me off. I'm sure I've seen people get banned for stuff like "LOL anime avatar tho". Seeing a mod do it is just depressing. Guess I can never go back to using an avatar of an anime character I like. Oh well. At least Katrien here is Chilean, so I'm safe, right?
 
Z

zeldablue

Member
wyrdwad said:
I would, because I don't believe for a second that that's true. Art, as far as I'm concerned, can never make anyone do anything they wouldn't have already been inclined to do in the first place.


-Tom
Click to expand...

If you've taken art history you'd know the opposite to be true. A lot of art is created to either change ideas or reinforce popular notions. Ever heard of propaganda?

There's a difference because "art" art, and industry art. One is create from the bottom of one's personal heart. The other is very manipulative and is driven by commercial success and profit. Commercial art has a tendency to go after normalized ideals, base feelings and popularized motifs/tropes/conventions...These works can then be harmful when amassed.

Games can often be art, but nothing about these particular games can fit that category. They're designed for a very specific audience in the same way CoD is created for a specific audience. They set out this work for the sole purpose of profit as opposed to expression. :/

Plenty of songs, books, paintings, games and designs are "art" ...and a lot of them aren't created as art at all. (Commercial/strongly-marketing products)

For better understanding look up kitsch art, or listen to pop music.
 
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