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[commish]

I simply don't understand the relentless shitstorm that flares up whenever any news on Destiny comes out.

This is a mode specifically made for pre-made groups. Pre-made.
Yes they could have a better invite or LFG system and i'm sure they are working on that, but for now, this content will require 5 like-minded mic'd individuals. Simple as that.

They probably playtested the hell out of this and saw that more casual players ended up pulling their hair out in frustration when getting matched in random groups. So until Bungie has a solution for those players, they decide not to add a matchmaking hopper.

That's it. No-one who is familiar with the actual concept of raids is even remotely surprised by this. Yet here we have tons of people who feel that they are arbitrarily getting restricted from a certain part of the game. Which simply is not true, if you expected randoms to pull you through, chances are that you were never going to see it anyway. It requires communication.

Luckily we have this beautiful GAF clan with hundreds and hundreds of gamers for all of the platforms. Getting a raid together will be a matter of posting a PSN ID/Gamertag.

Thanks. Now I can leave this trainwreck of a thread in peace. This sums it up.

 

[Xamtheking]

And, so it begins...

Let's have a chat
There are some valid reasons they might not want us to random.
1. The Raid might be difficult to the point of bullshit insane annihilation
2. Makes Raiding feel unique as opposed to a Strike
3. Ensures that you know who you are going in with
Also, would you rather be able to get into a Raid in only 2 minutes, then go through 2 hours of the Raid only to have the rest of your team quit?
Or would you rather have to spend a good half-hour getting a Raid group together that actually completes the damn thing

 

[mcfrank]

Speak for yourself with those generalizations, I have raided plenty in Warcraft and love my console fps'ers

That's as silly as thinking only ps3 owners purchased ps4.

Same.

 

[patapuf]

One of those options being a very frustrating experience playing with Leroy Jenkins trying to complete a raid. Completely agree with you!

People play frustrating shit all the time. Mobas and MMO's are the most popular genres around and both require teamwork to be successful on high tiers of play. Both are often completely shit experiences without friends and people love them anyway.

Limiting social interactions is the best way to stunt a community's long term viability (though that may be moot if they want to release sequels regularily.)

interested to see how this pans out for bungie. It's not like they can't change their minds after release either.

 

[Two Words]

This has to stop.

its one mode that makes up less then <10% of the game.

Everything else in Destiny is at match made and at your leisure.

I will post this every time I see a post like this.

granted you are entitled to whatever you want.

But he didn't say he can't play the game. He said he can't do a raid. Sounds like he knows what he isn't going to be able to do within the game.

 

[Homeboyd]

Hah! Using a fake staged video to make a point.But again why do you care if it would be frustrating? Because you clearly wouldn't be using it anyway.

If you can't make the connection between that video and actual people online who do the same thing, I don't know what to tell you. And I don't care... Just that I understand what frustrations they're attempting to avoid.

What do you think the reason is they're leaving it out considering there's matchmaking for all the other modes? Just laziness?

 

[MiamiWesker]

Luckily we have this beautiful GAF clan with hundreds and hundreds of gamers for all of the platforms. Getting a raid together will be a matter of posting a PSN ID/Gamertag.

Which is basically RANDOM MATCHING of people on gaf.

 

[Xamtheking]

Which is basically RANDOM MATCHING of people on gaf.

Misunderstood

 

[Two Words]

I simply don't understand the relentless shitstorm that flares up whenever any news on Destiny comes out.

This is a mode specifically made for pre-made groups. Pre-made.
Yes they could have a better invite or LFG system and i'm sure they are working on that, but for now, this content will require 5 like-minded mic'd individuals. Simple as that.

They probably playtested the hell out of this and saw that more casual players ended up pulling their hair out in frustration when getting matched in random groups. So until Bungie has a solution for those players, they decide not to add a matchmaking hopper.

That's it. No-one who is familiar with the actual concept of raids is even remotely surprised by this. Yet here we have tons of people who feel that they are arbitrarily getting restricted from a certain part of the game. Which simply is not true, if you expected randoms to pull you through, chances are that you were never going to see it anyway. It requires communication.

Luckily we have this beautiful GAF clan with hundreds and hundreds of gamers for all of the platforms. Getting a raid together will be a matter of posting a PSN ID/Gamertag.

Fireteams stomp matchmade teams in PVP. They have voice chat, they don't leave the game even if they are losing, and they coordinate together. Clearly having matchmaking in PvP is a huge disadvantage versus PvP. So why not kill PvP matchmaking too for the sake of the experience?

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I only have two real friends with a Ps4.

 

[BokehKing]

So if their argument is "You can't beat a raid with randoms and randoms are more likely to drop and you need to voice chat", then why not kill PvP matchmaking too? You an't voice chat in PvP, and that can be pretty vital to win against a team that does talk. Randoms are quick to drop out of a match that is going south. And a team of random versus a 6-man fire team is almost always going to lose, and badly. So it's obvious that doing random matchmaking in PvP will lead to bad losses versus fireteams. Therefore, they have to kill off matchmaking PvP too, right?

PvP and raiding are two different beasts, the objectives are self explanatory in pvp

 

[JetBlackPanda]

I only have two real friends with a Ps4.

how many friends do those friends have?

 

[Hoo-doo]

Which is basically RANDOM MATCHING of people on gaf.

Mostly adults who are all down to raid for a couple of hours and will have microphones ready.

All I need, really.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

I simply don't understand the relentless shitstorm that flares up whenever any news on Destiny comes out.

This is a mode specifically made for pre-made groups. Pre-made.
Yes they could have a better invite or LFG system and i'm sure they are working on that, but for now, this content will require 5 like-minded mic'd individuals. Simple as that.

They probably playtested the hell out of this and saw that more casual players ended up pulling their hair out in frustration when getting matched in random groups. So until Bungie has a solution for those players, they decide not to add a matchmaking hopper.

That's it. No-one who is familiar with the actual concept of raids is even remotely surprised by this. Yet here we have tons of people who feel that they are arbitrarily getting restricted from a certain part of the game. Which simply is not true, if you expected randoms to pull you through, chances are that you were never going to see it anyway. It requires communication.

Luckily we have this beautiful GAF clan with hundreds and hundreds of gamers for all of the platforms. Getting a raid together will be a matter of posting a PSN ID/Gamertag.

Yet you still fail to give even one remotely compelling reason as to why there shouldn't be an option to have matchmaking.

Literally, your only reason for not having matchmaking is "but it's frustrating with randoms!" So what? If I want to matchmake into a frustrating experience I should have the option to. It's a much better solution than just completely gating off content. Adding the option does not have any effect on the ability to create a group of people and all go in together.

 

[syko de4d]

Do we know if raids in destiny will come with Raid IDs or can you farm raids as much as you want per day/week? If there are IDs finding 5 friends will be alot harder, because no one is allowed to raid with other peoples already, and if there is no ID system people will rush through the content way faster, can farm the gear in a short time.

 

[Apt101]

Ya'll understand how easy it is to invite randoms to your fireteam, right? Just look at a player and click in on the right stick to highlight, then Invite to Fireteam. You could easily just hang around the tower for a bit and build up a party for the raid.

Even if Tower instances weren't limited to a small number of players, the practice of hollering over public channels or randomly attempting to invite other players is archaic. Party browsers showing players looking to participate in specific types of content should be a bare minimum, while match-making systems are already the norm.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Which is basically RANDOM MATCHING of people on gaf.

Not necessarily. You can take the initiative to ask your group in orbit if somebody isn't going to play the whole time and see how prepared they are. With time zone clans you also have the advantage of playing with people at the same time as they are.

With matchmaking drop in drop out you could only ask people once they join your fireteam if at all. And even then you'd have to start the raid beforehand.

 

[Xamtheking]

Yet you still fail to give even one remotely compelling reason as to why there shouldn't be an option to have matchmaking.

You want some compelling reasons? Alrighty then.
1. Raids might be hard to the point of mental suicide
2. Raids that aren't with randoms will likely have a higher chance of completing them

 

[Jest Chillin]

The only ones really bug testing the content where these guilds testing the content for themselves on the ptrs.
This team hired by blizzard did a very poor job and if bungie has something similar it will be the same thing.

Any small groups testing any content are bound to miss things. No game with thousands upon thousands of players is ever completely bug/exploit free and lots of time Top Guilds test on the PTRs specifically looking for things to exploit and not report. Regardless, Vanilla WoW did not have Guilds clearing content at the same speed Guilds clear content now. To expect groups to clear Destiny's first Raid at anywhere near the speed that WoW Guilds clear content now is not reasonable.

So if their argument is "You can't beat a raid with randoms and randoms are more likely to drop and you need to voice chat", then why not kill PvP matchmaking too? You an't voice chat in PvP, and that can be pretty vital to win against a team that does talk. Randoms are quick to drop out of a match that is going south. And a team of random versus a 6-man fire team is almost always going to lose, and badly. So it's obvious that doing random matchmaking in PvP will lead to bad losses versus fireteams. Therefore, they have to kill off matchmaking PvP too, right?

The level of coordination it takes to clear raids is very different from that of PvP. However many games specifically build seperate Pick Up Group and Pre-made PvP modes to try to avoid that kind of mismatch.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Luckily we have this beautiful GAF clan with hundreds and hundreds of gamers for all of the platforms. Getting a raid together will be a matter of posting a PSN ID/Gamertag.

Hand waving legit criticisms at its finest right here folks.

You want some compelling reasons? Alrighty then.
1. Raids might be hard to the point of mental suicide
2. Raids that aren't with randoms will likely have a higher chance of completing them

You give reasons but they aren't very compelling. I cleared some of the hardest fights with randoms in other games as i'm sure many others have as well.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

Fireteams stomp matchmade teams in PVP. They have voice chat, they don't leave the game even if they are losing, and they coordinate together. Clearly having matchmaking in PvP is a huge disadvantage versus PvP. So why not kill PvP matchmaking too for the sake of the experience?

PvP =/= A raid designed around 6 players with story elements, puzzle solving and bosses.

 

[Z3M0G]

As long as there is good content that does have matchmaking with other players, I'm becoming fine with this. They raise good points.

- Insanely difficult content is a good thing
- demanding co-operation / coordination is a good thing
- random players without mics mixed into this would be a bad thing

 

[KevMan1815]

I think this might work okay if they provide an ingame way to look for groups or flag yourself for a group. Because unless I'm missing something i haven't even seen much for clans ingame. I'm part of DestinyGAF, but how easy will it be for me to communicate with other members to for groups?

Edit: Or can I do these with say five instead of six people?

 

[Tadale]

Destiny GAF, you're my friends, now.

 

[BokehKing]

Fireteams stomp matchmade teams in PVP. They have voice chat, they don't leave the game even if they are losing, and they coordinate together. Clearly having matchmaking in PvP is a huge disadvantage versus PvP. So why not kill PvP matchmaking too for the sake of the experience?

Dealing with randoms in strikes with no mics is borderline horrendous as well. Communication is key

 

[Lemondish]

Giving the option will result in nobody using it.

Why? Because they're balancing this based on coordination, cooperation, and communication. I've seen people leave Strikes for shit elitist reasons, imagine trying to get through a two hour raid like that. It would be madness.

Sometimes there's value in forcing people to prepare and gather prior to a run. The message here is you must do so to have a chance. Allowing it 'just for the option' diminishes that message and will do nothing but damage the experience for players. No value in allowing it.

 

[Xamtheking]

As long as there is good content that does have matchmaking with other players, I'm becoming fine with this.

And guess what
THERE IS!
CUPCAKES FOR EVERYONE

 

[Hoo-doo]

Hand waving legit criticisms at its finest right here folks.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be fixing their LFG system. In fact, I mentioned it in my post.
But for gaffers who are dedicated enough to raid for a few hours, there's a complete thread dedicated to making it happen.

 

[pixxxelz]

Welp thank god for destinygaf

 

[mcfrank]

Here is what matchmaking would look like in a super hard raid

1 - 3 minutes - Finding a group

3 - 10 minutes - The 2 folks with mics are asking the 2 people without mics and the 2 people who are in a private party to join the chat. The other people can't hear them or don't care. The 4 people who can't hear are running a head and pulling mobs.

10 - 20 minutes - The group has wiped on the first set of trash mobs 2 times now and the 2 folks with mics are begging the other four to get on mic so they can time the pull and plan ahead, but alas they cannot hear or don't care. Meanwhile, folks without mics are quitting and the two who were in their own private party are complaining to each other how everyone else is a noob.

20 - 30 minutes - one by one folks begin to quit since you are wiping on the first trash pull. They are replaced by singles who then immediately quit as they see they are joining a group in progress that cannot even complete the first trash pull.

30 minutes later you and your friend both quit too and go to PVP, or Strike or give up on Destiny all together because you are frustrated you keep wasting your limited gaming time.

This is what the experience would be for matchmaking a hard raid. Are you sure you still want that option?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Fuck yeah! Destiny GAF, unite!

 

[GhaleonEB]

That's all I ever did in Reach and I usually had a great time. No one knew each other and no one ever used voice chat, but games got completed anyway.

It's mostly what I did in Reach as well. I spent most games pulling my hair out. Very few games finished. Given the abysmal player counts in the playlist, the appeal was very limited. Doing that to raids would be a good way to kill them.

 

[Xamtheking]

Here is what matchmaking would look like in a super hard raid


This is what the experience would be for matchmaking a hard raid. Are you sure you still want that option?

That's what DestinyGaf is for
Finding scumbags who pretend to cooperate
(Ya'll be awesome)

 

[Mindlog]

Dealing with randoms I'm strikes with no mics is borderline horrendous as well. Communication is key

I had 0 problems clearing strikes with even terrible randoms.
A simple entry gate would solve most RAID matchmaking issues.

"Complete the Iron Banner Unbroken Bounty to proceed."

 

[Norns]

Yet you still fail to give even one remotely compelling reason as to why there shouldn't be an option to have matchmaking.

Literally, your only reason for not having matchmaking is "but it's frustrating with randoms!" So what? If I want to matchmake into a frustrating experience I should have the option to. It's a much better solution than just completely gating off content. Adding the option does not have any effect on the ability to create a group of people and all go in together.

Except people take the easiest route to content.

Maybe they've done actual testing and realized the raid experience is terrible with randoms? Why spend extra dev time on a feature that leads to a poor player experience?

 

[Veldin]

This would make sense in a game that has in-game keyboard chat and looking-for-group functions.

 

[Nokagi]

What do you think the reason is they're leaving it out considering there's matchmaking for all the other modes? Just laziness?

I see no reason to leave it out. Simply make it so people joining up for a raid can speak to each other and the problem is solved. And if you are the type who wants to feel superior to random pugs then just don't join. Everyone is happy.

 

[Navy Bean]

Here is what matchmaking would look like in a super hard raid

1 - 3 minutes - Finding a group

3 - 10 minutes - The 2 folks with mics are asking the 2 people without mics and the 2 people who are in a private party to join the chat. The other people can't hear them or don't care. The 4 people who can't hear are running a head and pulling mobs.

10 - 20 minutes - The group has wiped on the first set of trash mobs 2 times now and the 2 folks with mics are begging the other four to get on mic so they can time the pull and plan ahead, but alas they cannot hear or don't care. Meanwhile, folks without mics are quitting and the two who were in their own private party are complaining to each other how everyone else is a noob.

20 - 30 minutes - one by one folks begin to quit since you are wiping on the first trash pull. They are replaced by singles who then immediately quit as they see they are joining a group in progress that cannot even complete the first trash pull.

30 minutes later you and your friend both quit too and go to PVP, or Strike or give up on Destiny all together because you are frustrated you keep wasting your limited gaming time.

This is what the experience would be for matchmaking a hard raid. Are you sure you still want that option?

Eh, it worked fine in Gears and Mass Effect 3, both of which were fun and could be challenging as hell.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

You want some compelling reasons? Alrighty then.
1. Raids might be hard to the point of mental suicide
2. Raids that aren't with randoms will likely have a higher chance of completing them

"It's harder with randoms therefore you shouldn't be allowed to matchmake for it."

Yeah, sorry, that's not a legitimate excuse to me. Having the option to enter matchmaking and join a random group is still a better option than just gating it off completely. I don't need Bungie to protect me from something because it's difficult.

 

[DNAbro]

I had 0 problems clearing strikes with even terrible randoms.
A simple entry gate would solve most RAID matchmaking issues.

I would hope so. Strikes aren't supposed to be incredibly hard.

 

[NullPointer]

Ever play Firefight Limited matchmaking in Reach? The folks you get matched up with can't do the first two, much less the rest of the list. So Bungie has their own experiences to build on.

Firefight limited had a shared pool of live though, which only amplified the damage a less skilled player could cause. Always thought that was a weird design, even in ODST.

 

[mcfrank]

Eh, it worked fine in Gears and Mass Effect 3, both of which were fun and could be challenging as hell.

Raiding and horde mode are very different things.

 

[Jito]

Don't think I've ever had a massive problem with Reach firefight, Gears 3 Horde mode or L4D2 co op that I'd remove matchmaking for them from the game entirely. Sure it was hard at times with shit team mates, but I still wouldn't take the matchmaking out of the game. Such a massive oversight for Bungie, hope they know what they're doing.

 

[QisTopTier]

All I know is I'm hype for this. I could care less about not being able to do it with PUGS I'm not antisocial

 

[Recall]

Here is what matchmaking would look like in a super hard raid

1 - 3 minutes - Finding a group

3 - 10 minutes - The 2 folks with mics are asking the 2 people without mics and the 2 people who are in a private party to join the chat. The other people can't hear them or don't care. The 4 people who can't hear are running a head and pulling mobs.

10 - 20 minutes - The group has wiped on the first set of trash mobs 2 times now and the 2 folks with mics are begging the other four to get on mic so they can time the pull and plan ahead, but alas they cannot hear or don't care. Meanwhile, folks without mics are quitting and the two who were in their own private party are complaining to each other how everyone else is a noob.

20 - 30 minutes - one by one folks begin to quit since you are wiping on the first trash pull. They are replaced by singles who then immediately quit as they see they are joining a group in progress that cannot even complete the first trash pull.

30 minutes later you and your friend both quit too and go to PVP, or Strike or give up on Destiny all together because you are frustrated you keep wasting your limited gaming time.

This is what the experience would be for matchmaking a hard raid. Are you sure you still want that option?

Its my time to waste, what does it matter to anyone else?

 

[mcfrank]

That's what DestinyGaf is for
Finding scumbags who pretend to cooperate
(Ya'll be awesome)

I agree. My post was directed at folks who want matchmaking.

Its my time to waste, what does it matter to anyone else?

It matters to Bungie as it is their job to give you a fun experience. Sometimes creating a fun experience means putting a limit on options.

 

[Two Words]

PvP and raiding are two different beasts, the objectives are self explanatory in pvp

Uhh, go to any objective-based PvP multiplayer with randoms and I guarantee you people will be forgetting about the objectives to just rake up kills in a lot of cases. My point stands perfectly. They are just arbitrarily choosing to not put matchmaking on Raids according to their own logic.

The level of coordination it takes to clear raids is very different from that of PvP. However many games specifically build seperate Pick Up Group and Pre-made PvP modes to try to avoid that kind of mismatch.

Do you think a coordinated fireteam will lose to a matchmade team in a PvP game? Experience will tell you no.

PvP =/= A raid designed around 6 players with story elements, puzzle solving and bosses.

None the less, 6-team fireteams stomp public matchmakers. How does that not impact the experience? The fireteam get no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. The experience is harmed. Kill it.

 

[Xamtheking]

"It's harder with randoms therefore you shouldn't be allowed to matchmake for it."

Yeah, sorry, that's not a legitimate excuse to me. Having the option to enter matchmaking and join a random group is still a better option than just gating it off completely. I don't need Bungie to protect me from something because it's difficult.

Your point is valid and therefore I give an example

Scenario 1: Takes 2 minutes to find a Raid Group through matchmaking, and then the group just gives up after 2 hours of pure pain
Scenario 2: Takes 30 minutes to find a Raid Group through NeoGaf/in-game, and then the group finishes the damn thing

 

[Blueblur1]

It blows my mind that people are arguing against the idea of an option. As if they'll be forced to use it.

 

[Navy Bean]

Raiding and horde mode are very different things.

How so? (Serious question). The last waves of horde mode require serious teamwork.