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[Pro from Dover]

Red the article. Please.

Has it gone to Pavlovian levels? Does the mention of Nintendo cause sudden shits?
I think Miyamoto has done wonders as a developer and it's even more wonderful because he doesn't want to sit on his laurels and recognizes when he and Nintendo (SHIT NOW) are sitting on them.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I was going to call him out quite severely, but he is an older man so people tend to go crazy with age.

... I'm out.

 

[Raist]

So you are ignoring what the person in question is saying. Well then what else can I say really...

I'm not ignoring anything. Miyamoto has had this discourse for ages, and next thing you know Nintendo announces another Zelda/Mario/Smash. How about they put the same amount of resources into a completely different genre for a change? How about they make an action-RPG that isn't Zelda?

Saying "I'm not happy about myself" isn't gonna have any value if he keeps putting a lot of resources/efforts into the same decades-old IPs with minor changes.

 

[reptilexcq2]

"Innocent" and "bright" doesn't equal "kiddie shit". Do I really have to explain more?

But "immature."

 

[weekev]

At some point people have got to realize that the problem is intrinsic to the framework of our society - that same framework that generates formulaic me-too Hollywood blockbusters based off of the exact same storytelling structure over and over and over again.

This is how capitalism works, people. Creativity does not survive high budgets and the overwhelming force of monetary conservatism. To put it another way: don't hate the players (i.e. the developers and publishers), hate the game (i.e. the need to make money just to survive as a company).

I know this may seem off-topic to some people, but really, this is getting old. People keep complaining about developers and publishers playing it safe and doing the same shit that sells over and over and over again while completely ignoring the gigantic elephant in the room. It's bizarre.

Granted, I know why: "How do you solve capitalism?" is a seemingly impossible question to answer. Well, maybe that's what we should actually be talking about, rather than complaining that people are trying to game the system the way it was always meant to be played.

Boom, excellent post.

 

[Amir0x]

Honestly Miyamoto has been saying some really bizarre things lately. Maybe the games that hit retail shelves are too 'same-y', but the second you start calculating indies - which, incidentally, have just as great odds of being amazing and are just as real as any other game - it falls apart.

There's so much diversity now it's overwhelming at times.

Also, Miyamoto, "new" gameplay is not the only thing that matters. Maybe you guys should look inward and realize that NEW also applies to worlds, themes and characters, and stop painting Mario, Kirby, Link, Donkey Kong, etc into 2/3 of all your ideas. Thanks Miyamoto

 

[J-Tier]

But "immature."

Tempted to c/p the drive by posts on page one in response to this.

 

[AzaK]

AAA? Yeah sure. Otherwise, that really isn't true.

Agreed. The indie scene is EXTREMELY creative. Far more creative than most big publishers and developers. Being "samey" is part and parcel of being a mass-market player and will never change.

 

[LegendofLex]

So either all of these people failed at reading comprehension in school, or just didn't bother to read the full statement and went straight to fanboyism.

Spoiler

Or both.

Just because Miyamoto admits that Nintendo does it, that doesn't exempt him from criticism, or suddenly make him any more aware of exactly how much he is part of the problem.

 

[johnbone]

Tempted to c/p the drive by posts on page one in response to this.

I already did it for ya!

 

[Hiko]

Also, Miyamoto, "new" gameplay is not the only thing that matters. Maybe you guys should look inward and realize that NEW also applies to worlds, themes and characters, and stop painting Mario, Kirby, Link, Donkey Kong, etc into 2/3 of all your ideas. Thanks Miyamoto

So true

 

[Vlade]

At some point people have got to realize that the problem is intrinsic to the framework of our society - that same framework that generates formulaic me-too Hollywood blockbusters based off of the exact same storytelling structure over and over and over again.

This is how capitalism works, people. Creativity does not survive high budgets and the overwhelming force of monetary conservatism. To put it another way: don't hate the players (i.e. the developers and publishers), hate the game (i.e. the need to make money just to survive as a company).

I know this may seem off-topic to some people, but really, this is getting old. People keep complaining about developers and publishers playing it safe and doing the same shit that sells over and over and over again while completely ignoring the gigantic elephant in the room. It's bizarre.

Granted, I know why: "How do you solve capitalism?" is a seemingly impossible question to answer. Well, maybe that's what we should actually be talking about, rather than complaining that people are trying to game the system the way it was always meant to be played.

And yet people and companies do take risks and we see new things. At some point being same-y is the greater risk because people do fatigue.

Also, the quote was not some grand manifesto, it was more about allowing the artists to have more freedom. If that comes with smaller budgets, then so be it - but I hope some will be daring enough to take on the greater risk. It would be better that we do that gradually than stagnate.

We have a pretty great indie scene, but there is a gap between these small projects and the big same-y games that he is talking about. I would like to see a lot of those ideas grow into something bigger faster.

 

[johnbone]

Just because Miyamoto admits that Nintendo does it, that doesn't exempt him from criticism, or suddenly make him any more aware of exactly how much he is part of the problem.

No I agree.
However, the "criticism" of him in this thread stems mostly from ignorance of what he actually said rather than any upper-level critiques of his (and Nintendo's) problems.

 

[LordOfChaos]

While I can completely see what he's talking about...I still would want to see what a Miyamoto FPS on the Wii U would be like.

 

[Oersted]

Honestly Miyamoto has been saying some really bizarre things lately. Maybe the games that hit retail shelves are too 'same-y', but the second you start calculating indies - which, incidentally, have just as great odds of being amazing and are just as real as any other game - it falls apart.

There's so much diversity now it's overwhelming at times.

Also, Miyamoto, "new" gameplay is not the only thing that matters. Maybe you guys should look inward and realize that NEW also applies to worlds, themes and characters, and stop painting Mario, Kirby, Link, Donkey Kong, etc into 2/3 of all your ideas. Thanks Miyamoto

Missed last E3?

 

[Sify64]

I'm not ignoring anything. Miyamoto has had this discourse for ages, and next thing you know Nintendo announces another Zelda/Mario/Smash. How about they put the same amount of resources into a completely different genre for a change? How about they make an action-RPG that isn't Zelda?

Saying "I'm not happy about myself" isn't gonna have any value if he keeps putting a lot of resources/efforts into the same decades-old IPs with minor changes.

So the problem you have is that Nintendo should stop making sequels to their IPs per console gen. It takes more than 5 years to just get a single new Zelda. There's nothing wrong here.

And you want an Action RPG... Have you possibly tried out Xenoblade, Last Story or Pandora's Tower which may fit your liking published and co-developed by Nintendo.

 

[Pound_lb003]

How does your era have anything to do with Miyamotos relevance. Thats like saying Mick Jagger has no relevance to anyone in the music industry who wasnt about in the 70s. His games are not to your taste and thats fine but you will not find anyone more influential or relevant in the gaming industry than Miyamoto.

Mick Jagger is a bad analogy, only because of his recent relevance in the pop space - even though his presence there is only kind of hipster/ironic.

Let's compare instead; Miyamoto to Paul McCartney, who can no longer sing and who's writing skills are unfortunately tied to the era that he was popular in. No one CAN deny his influence or legacy. But music has since moved on, and his really simplistic ballads are no longer en vogue.

The comment about my era, and my opinion was only to prepare people like yourselves for a less than forgiving opinion on Miyamoto's importance in today's industry. He holds a lot of nostalgic cache that is perhaps more relevant to people on a personal level than they'd care to admit.

I am NOT denying Miyamoto's influence, only his relevance. Those are two terms I didn't lump together.

Heck, my favourite game of all time is Shadow of the Colossus, I'd be an imbecile to deny his influence.

 

[weekev]

And yet people and companies do take risks and we see new things. At some point being same-y is the greater risk because people do fatigue.

Also, the quote was not some grand manifesto, it was more about allowing the artists to have more freedom. If that comes with smaller budgets, then so be it - but I hope some will be daring enough to take on the greater risk. It would be better that we do that gradually than stagnate.

We have a pretty great indie scene, but there is a gap between these small projects and the big same-y games that he is talking about. I would like to see a lot of those ideas grow into something bigger faster.

I like this idea, there should be Indie collaborations to create mid budget games full of creativity and unique gameplay. That would be exciting.

 

[Oersted]

While I can completely see what he's talking about...I still would want to see what a Miyamoto FPS on the Wii U would be like.

Well, Miyamoto loves the first person perspective, but I doubt he wants to make a first person shooter, atleast in the traditional sense. Because Steel Diver is kiiiinnnndddaaa a FPS.

 

[Pound_lb003]

I like this idea, there should be Indie collaborations to create mid budget games full of creativity and unique gameplay. That would be exciting.

I feel like you're starting to see this.

What with Rime and most of Sony's Gamescom announcements, and then hopefully the Sierra label can move onto some bigger things too.

 

[weekev]

Mick Jagger is a bad analogy, only because of his recent relevance in the pop space - even though his presence there is only kind of hipster/ironic.

Let's compare instead; Miyamoto to Paul McCartney, who can no longer sing and who's writing skills are unfortunately tied to the era that he was popular in. No one CAN deny his influence or legacy. But music has since moved on, and his really simplistic ballads are no longer en vogue.

The comment about my era, and my opinion was only to prepare people like yourselves for a less than forgiving opinion on Miyamoto's importance in today's industry. He holds a lot of nostalgic cache that is perhaps more relevant to people on a personal level than they'd care to admit.

I am NOT denying Miyamoto's influence, only his relevance. Those are two terms I didn't lump together.

Heck, my favourite game of all time is Shadow of the Colossus, I'd be an imbecile to deny his influence.

We are definitely going to need to agree to disagree. You only need to look at games like Pikmin 3 or 3D World to realise his games are still relevant.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

While I deeply respect him:

Pretty much sums the whole discussion up. I deeply respect Miyamoto, but he's just as guilty of this as anyone

 

[Morfeo]

Yep, Miyamoto is without a doubt right in this. Only exceptions to this is Nintendo themselves and indies, but all the other big publisers keep it safe with cinematic shooter-galore. A sad development

 

[Astral Dog]

Honestly Miyamoto has been saying some really bizarre things lately. Maybe the games that hit retail shelves are too 'same-y', but the second you start calculating indies - which, incidentally, have just as great odds of being amazing and are just as real as any other game - it falls apart.

There's so much diversity now it's overwhelming at times.

Also, Miyamoto, "new" gameplay is not the only thing that matters. Maybe you guys should look inward and realize that NEW also applies to worlds, themes and characters, and stop painting Mario, Kirby, Link, Donkey Kong, etc into 2/3 of all your ideas. Thanks Miyamoto

I guess its because there is a lot less diversity in the AAA space, specially from Japanese developers, and unfortunately many games feel like they are developed for a certain demographic, from a few companies and some specific genres, but you are right, even if Indie/iOS games rarely have the same quality, recently there has been more announcements that indicate certain compnies are aware they have to diversify their lineup more (from Nintendo, Microsoft,Konami,Sony especially) it just seems to me like the longer generation,and HD costs of 360/PS3 damaged the industry and game companies in some way,but maybe this early gen can change things a little, .

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So you want Nintendo to make clones of AAA bloody, realistic shooters, open-world adventure, driving games and whatever else is popular just like Microsoft, Sony and every other third party publisher.

Ultimately, gaming is a business like any other mass media industry. Nintendo is a business. Their goal is to make money, not lose it and go bankrupt. I'm not saying Nintendo needs to make Gears of War starring Mario, but Nintendo had been willfully ignoring larger industry trends like online gameplay for years now and it is killing them in the market.

Also, let's be honest here, I would find it absolutely hilarious if Nintendo made an FPS where Mario chainsawed Luigi in half while shouting "MAMMA MIA MOTHERFUCKER!!!!" I would buy a Wii U for that, just for the novelty factor.

 

[chiimisu]

But "immature."

Ehh. Whatever you say, dude.

 

[lyrick]

Pretty much sums the whole discussion up. I deeply respect Miyamoto, but he's just as guilty of this as anyone

Maybe they should put a cute picture in the OP too, then people may actually pay attention to it.

 

[MoogleWizard]

Honestly Miyamoto has been saying some really bizarre things lately. Maybe the games that hit retail shelves are too 'same-y', but the second you start calculating indies - which, incidentally, have just as great odds of being amazing and are just as real as any other game - it falls apart.

There's so much diversity now it's overwhelming at times.

Also, Miyamoto, "new" gameplay is not the only thing that matters. Maybe you guys should look inward and realize that NEW also applies to worlds, themes and characters, and stop painting Mario, Kirby, Link, Donkey Kong, etc into 2/3 of all your ideas. Thanks Miyamoto

Indies are not the answer to everything. There is a huge gap between small indie games and the big productions Miyamoto is talking about. An indie game with a small budget is not a great risk. What used to be "b games", games that weren't AAA but still big productions are basically gone now. The need to immediately jump from AAA blockbusters to indies to defend the variety in today's industry just proves that.

 

[Hugstable]

Honestly Miyamoto has been saying some really bizarre things lately. Maybe the games that hit retail shelves are too 'same-y', but the second you start calculating indies - which, incidentally, have just as great odds of being amazing and are just as real as any other game - it falls apart.

I think he's mostly referring to AAA games, but I also feel that Indie games should also be calculated a few of my favorite experiences this year have come from indie games (Especially Crypt of the Necrodancer <3). What I love about indies is that there are so many different devs that different genres and diverse games will always be seen. Sure there are a majority of Rogue Like style games coming out in indies, but there is alot of quality in some of these games that just shouldn't be missed.

 

[weekev]

I feel like you're starting to see this.

What with Rime and most of Sony's Gamescom announcements, and then hopefully the Sierra label can move onto some bigger things too.

Yeah and Rime looks amazing it has to be said. I feel that concepts like No Mans Sky would benefit from some kind of collaboration too. A concept where you go "Holy Shit that sounds awesome...only 7 of you? Need a hand?" would be awesome.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

He is talking about diversity while the WiiU is cleary the console with the least amount of diversity in its library...

 

[Squishy3]

Ultimately, gaming is a business like any other mass media industry. Nintendo is a business. Their goal is to make money, not lose it and go bankrupt. I'm not saying Nintendo needs to make Gears of War starring Mario, but Nintendo had been willfully ignoring larger industry trends like online gameplay for years now and it is killing them in the market.

I highly doubt the lack of online gameplay in games like NSMBU and Mario 3D World is killing them in the market. They put online gameplay in games that they think warrant it, Mario Kart has had online gameplay since 2005. It's wrong to say they're ignoring online multiplayer entirely.

He is talking about diversity while the WiiU is cleary the console with the least amount of diversity in its library...

Read more than the title please. He explicitly states that he's not happy with the inspirations he has either.

 

[DeaviL]

He is talking about diversity while the WiiU is cleary the console with the least amount of diversity in its library...

I... what?

 

[weekev]

He is talking about diversity while the WiiU is cleary the console with the least amount of diversity in its library...

Looks at WiiU lineup...checks again.

I know its just an opinion but its a really really bad one.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Yep, Miyamoto is without a doubt right in this. Only exceptions to this is Nintendo themselves and indies, but all the other big publisers keep it safe with cinematic shooter-galore. A sad development

Every big publisher except EA are releasing risky games Ubisoft with Child of lights and Valiant hearts, Activision with that Korra game made by Platinium and the revival of Sierra and Take two with the return of Xcom.

.

 

[johnsavage]

Maybe they should put a cute picture in the OP too, then people may actually pay attention to it.

I'm beginning to think people don't even/can't read. There are posts around that picture that mention that Miyamoto said Nintendo is to blame too, but for some reason people still don't see it after 10 pages.

It kinda hard to find good comments about the actual topic (variety in AAA games) when most posts are drive by posters saying Nintendo should look in mirror when they're already fucking doing that.

 

[Raist]

So the problem you have is that Nintendo should stop making sequels to their IPs per console gen. It takes more than 5 years to just get a single new Zelda. There's nothing wrong here.

And you want an Action RPG... Have you possibly tried out Xenoblade, Last Story or Pandora's Tower which may fit your liking published and co-developed by Nintendo.

Why does the amount of time between releases matters when the topic is about being same-y and not creative enough? Does Nintendo get a free pass because there's 3 years instead of one between each new Zelda game?

In these kind of discussions there always seems to be criterias that somehow don't apply to Nintendo and moving of goal posts.

So if we're taling about the AAA output of various devs and how it's being too same-y, and how Nintendo fares with that, it's gonna mostly be restricted to:
Mario
Zelda
Mario Kart
Smash

Which is milked to hell and back by Nintendo, and not exactly the best examples of "not same-y" AAA IPs. It's no different than GTA or CoD or Halo or anything else Miyamoto is targeting with his comments.

 

[mclem]

Came for the "bu-bu-bu Mario!" shitposting, not surprised.

Anyway, in regard for the actual OP, I think Miyamoto is correct in that there don't seem to be that many genres or settings being explored. Outside of the indie space, obviously...

Personally I'm pretty tired of the "so you have this gun, and you shoot bullets at people and stuff and sometimes get behind cover" approach that seems to pervade a lot of games nowadays. It IS very samey. There are a lot of interesting places to go in games and it seems like the focus is on where we can go and shoot stuff because there's a war going on or whatever.

"After all, you can't go wrong with a badass shooter"

 

[Damaniel]

Yep, Miyamoto is without a doubt right in this. Only exceptions to this is Nintendo themselves and indies, but all the other big publisers keep it safe with cinematic shooter-galore. A sad development

When standard AAA game development involves 9-figure budgets and requires you sell 10 million copies just to break even, there's no room for risk taking. And that's perfectly fine - if the AAA market is guilty of catering to people looking for more of the same, then at least they're doing it for a reason.

Personally, I think the game industry is more innovative than it's ever been, just not in the AAA space. Because of more open development policies by the console makers, not to mention the existence of gaming PCs, a wide variety of unique gaming experiences are available at many different price ranges, created at many different budget levels. One of the most innovative games released in the last few years (Minecraft) was made pretty much by one guy with a little bit of extra help. As long as *someone* is doing the innovating, then the AAA studios can release all the shoot-bang games or character platformers they want -- I'll never run out of stuff to play, and we'll never run out of unique gaming experiences.

 

[Astral Dog]

He is talking about diversity while the WiiU is cleary the console with the least amount of diversity in its library...

The Wii U library is very different from other consoles,and has nice library of exclusive titles. Could Nintendo do a better job? sure, but of course, Nintendo is just one company and it would be impossible to expect them to carry it by themselves,while also making handheld games,the failure of the system is not necesarily on the software side.

 

[Pound_lb003]

We are definitely going to need to agree to disagree. You only need to look at games like Pikmin 3 or 3D World to realise his games are still relevant.

I've tried a bit of 3D World, but not Pikmin 3, so I feel a bit disingenuous commenting on Pikmin 3 specifically. To speak objectively about it though, it is an entry in a unique franchise that's well over a decade old. Both kind of fall flat when looked at in the context of what he's saying here. I just think [insert director of next CoD] could have said that - be equally correct, but also equally hypocritical.

EDIT: Comma overload.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Read more than the title please. He explicitly states that he's not happy with the inspirations he has either.

I think he is partially right, the huge investments are mostly played safe, but there is a lot of stuff thats not huge AAA and thats where the diversity and innovation is at.
I think he(and probably many other people at Nintendo) has an outdated view of what videogames are and we see that with WiiU.
While Microsoft and Sony do everything the can to get more stuff on their consoles, Nintendo just pretty much banks on people who buy their console just for Nintendo games.

This approach is hurting Nintendo bad, because they just can deliver tha huge variety that can be found on other consoles thanks to many 3rd party developers, indie and established.


I just think he is not in the position to made such broad claims. Maybe be humble and talk about the problems the WiiU has specifically and not speculate about what could be wrong with the competition.

 

[djkeem]

What's the difference between indie and AAA?

 

[Sify64]

Why does the amount of time between releases matters when the topic is about being same-y and not creative enough? Does Nintendo get a free pass because there's 3 years instead of one between each new Zelda game?

In these kind of discussions there always seems to be criterias that somehow don't apply to Nintendo and moving of goal posts.

So if we're taling about the AAA output of various devs and how it's being too same-y, and how Nintendo fares with that, it's gonna mostly be restricted to:
Mario
Zelda
Mario Kart
Smash

Which is milked to hell and back by Nintendo, and not exactly the best examples of "not same-y" AAA IPs. It's no different than GTA or CoD or Halo or anything else Miyamoto is targeting with his comments.

I'm not moving goal posts. I was talking personally on how I would feel about it as a gamer. It's long time waiting when you are a fan of Nintendo games. Anyway, I already moved away from the Miyamoto comment since it didn't seem it was going anywhere. Reading through your reply, it seems that I was correct.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

What's the difference between indie and AAA?

AAA= GTA, COD, AC, Destiny
Indie= Minecraft, Terraria, Gone Home, Super Meat Boy

 

[ASIS]

I love how the first page goes all out with "you too, miyamoto!" even though he includes himself in the criticism . I agree completely. Big publishers DO follow trends rather than innovation.

 

[StevieP]

I think he is partially right, the huge investments are mostly played safe, but there is a lot of stuff thats not huge AAA and thats where the diversity and innovation is at.
I think he(and probably many other people at Nintendo) has an outdated view of what videogames are and we see that with WiiU.
While Microsoft and Sony do everything the can to get more stuff on their consoles, Nintendo just pretty much banks on people who buy their console just for Nintendo games.

This approach is hurting Nintendo bad, because they just can deliver tha huge variety that can be found on other consoles thanks to many 3rd party developers, indie and established.


I just think he is not in the position to made such broad claims. Maybe be humble and talk about the problems the WiiU has specifically and not speculate about what could be wrong with the competition.

If you look outside of the indie space (which Nintendo also has a healthy ecosystem of, and pc does much better than any console) then I don't see the massive variety of games you're talking about on the ps4 or Xbox one. I see the majority of it being lot of shooting, stabbing killing and driving with the occasional family title that barely registers and certainly doesn't put out preorder PR.

 

[Pound_lb003]

Yeah and Rime looks amazing it has to be said. I feel that concepts like No Mans Sky would benefit from some kind of collaboration too. A concept where you go "Holy Shit that sounds awesome...only 7 of you? Need a hand?" would be awesome.

Totally agree.

I don't necessarily want Sony to, but I'd love some company to come along and say, "here's 20 artists for you to outsource a bunch of assets to". Because I have a feeling, despite being millions of unique planets... How much variety can there truly be?

Who knows?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Why does the amount of time between releases matters when the topic is about being same-y and not creative enough? Does Nintendo get a free pass because there's 3 years instead of one between each new Zelda game?

In these kind of discussions there always seems to be criterias that somehow don't apply to Nintendo and moving of goal posts.

So if we're taling about the AAA output of various devs and how it's being too same-y, and how Nintendo fares with that, it's gonna mostly be restricted to:
Mario
Zelda
Mario Kart
Smash

Which is milked to hell and back by Nintendo, and not exactly the best examples of "not same-y" AAA IPs. It's no different than GTA or CoD or Halo or anything else Miyamoto is targeting with his comments.

This refers way more to gameplay than IP, and it's more about industry wide than within a specific developer. He's talking more about people developing new ips that are incredibly similar to market leaders. So sequels are an issue, but a lesser one and far from the main one in this thing. And spinoffs are almost entirely removed because they play entirely differently from the main line. Aside from the setting and characters, nothing about Mario Kart is similar to 3D mario platformers, which in turn play very differently to 2d mario platformers. Furthermore, how many other AAA companies make platformers besides Nintendo? Because you can't claim he's only following market trends if noone else in the market makes the same type of game.

 

[Servbot24]

I agree with him, but Nintendo is guilty of the same flaw, just with a different coat of paint.