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[pinkurocket]

Well since NSMB is just one series, let me ask an honest question.

What's the big difference between Mario Kart 8 and 7 in terms of gameplay? Same with Mario 3-D World and previous Mario platformers?

I mean what are we arguing? That genres of all these different IPs play similar to all games that are in the same genre? So Destiny is not original because it's a first person shooter? Is it just tackling on one genre and any company that doesn't do FPS games are better companies for it? Is level design suddenly the biggest indicator in originality?

Maybe I'm just tired idk lol.

There is a huge difference in gameplay between all mainline Mario games. Mario 3D Land and Mario 3D World are similar, however unique because 3D Land uses the 3D of the 3DS to it's advantage and 3D World has a really competitive co-op mode. Super Mario Galaxy uses a unique gravity mechanic, Mario Sunshine had FLUDD. There is different gameplay in all these titles, and the way the levels works is different as well.

Mario Kart is a series with one iteration for every console, and just look them up because there are clearly new mechanics every time. Compared to 7, 8 has anti-gravity and superior online infrastructure, and the option to grow through the generation with DLC content etc.

There's plenty posts in this thread explaining how Nintendo uses their IPs to create games not hindered by the limits a realistic, dark and/or gritty game often gets. They create gameplay first, and add an IP afterwards. Like Super Mario Galaxy's planet/gravity mechanic probably didn't start as a Mario game. Also the unrealistic setting allows them to not be limited with their creativity. Silly stuff like fire having shadows in 3D World makes no sense, but it helps the gameplay because of the way the game uses depth.

 

[michaelius]

He seemed to be quite ok with it when companies were producing same shovelware and mini-game collections for Wii.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

He seemed to be quite ok with it when companies were producing same shovelware and mini-game collections for Wii.

That's just companies trying to cash in quickly. The Wii was boot camp for the mobile market!

 

[AniHawk]

He seemed to be quite ok with it when companies were producing same shovelware and mini-game collections for Wii.

do you have a direct quote?

 

[JNA]

I'm going to try and pick apart each question even though its clear you've completely ignored my points as well as the points of the thread. It's as if you didn't even read anything.

8 introduced several changes in the way items work as well as changes with anti-gravity. Also, far better tracks than 7.

3D World introduced climbing via cat suit and exploring while under a timed duration. It's actually a combination of 2D and 3D Mario concepts.

I'm not gonna judge Destiny so early, but it played like Borderlands with reused Halo assets and physics. Bungie did state that Destiny was what they wanted Halo to be originally.

I don't understand your question about tackling one genre/non-FPS companies being better considering Nintendo's making Splatoon. Sounds like you're setting up a strawman but can't articulate it properly.

Level design is a form of originality and has always been a form of originality. Once again I don't understand the "suddenly" argument since good gameplay and design have been staples of games since the days of Ralph Baer.

Maybe you should get some sleep, read the article, read what's been said, and make a coherent argument rather than scramble poorly constructed ideas together just to throw up some sort of response.

It's clear? Umm me ignoring stuff (I wasn't aware I was actually doing that) wasn't exactly intentional. 0_0

So 8 is different because it has new items and tracks? Isn't that same logic applied to FPS games that have new guns, maps, perks, and whatever twist mechanic they add in?

So 3D world is different because it has a cat suit unlike the previous games? Or different because getting through a level is timed now? How is that more different from Destiny playing like a combination of Borderlands and Halo?

I'm not trying to set anything up, mostly just trying to understand what the issue here is.

You mentioned something about NSMB having some fantastic level design and that it's supposedly better than any level designs created in recent FPS games (granted you never actually said the last part but that's the feel I got from your post before).

I would but my bed sheets are in the wash at the moment. XD

EDIT: just so we're clear, I'm not trolling you or anything like that. I'm a nice guy (at least I like to think I am), you don't have to condescend me like I were one.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

So essentially, you are blaming halo for not being unique enough because other games like to copy it. Also, no, majority of the military FPS's out there are wildly different from Halo. Here are a few reasons why:
1)They tend to have significantly worst level design.
2)Lack variety in mission design.
3)Have bad pacing.
4)Have little to no vehicular gameplay.
5)Lack the lore, world building and characters that are usually in halo.
6)Are most likely set in Modern times with emphasis on realism
7)Have poor A.I
8)Gunplay with Aim Down Sights.(Drastically changes gameplay)
9)Fast Kill times(Drastically changes gameplay)
10)And generic guns.

Have you actually played the campaigns of other shooters? Most of these check off (or attempt to, anyways) all of these except for the ADS. Things like "worse level design" isn't an objective measure.

My point isn't to compare Halo's quality to that of other FPSs, but to point out that it isn't the special snowflake you're making it out to be.

As for the big budget side scrollers that play like NSMB:
Rayman Legends/origins.

Spoiler

Except, they play much better. I didn't even mention other platformers by Nintendo like Donkey Kong

That's one non-Nintendo franchise, and it's been around since the '90s. Okay, Halo is super-generic because of Tribes. Bam. Hell, using your logic I could argue that Halo is really just a string of generic rehashes. Look, I've even got a picture:

And unlike Gonzo's picture, I don't even have to show every game twice to make it look like a lot. It's also interesting to see how five Halo games for the 360 is perfectly acceptable, but one NSMB game per console is overdoing it.

I also like how you limit my choices by mentioning big budget knowing that there are a ton of idie games that play like NSMB.

Miyamoto isn't talking about indie games. I'm not talking about indie games. They're irrelevant to this thread, because once you start including them you can claim that every game is generic.

 

[AniHawk]

It's clear? Umm me ignoring stuff (I wasn't aware I was actually doing that) wasn't exactly intentional. 0_0

So 8 is different because it has new items and tracks? Isn't that same logic applied to FPS games that have new guns, maps, perks, and whatever twist mechanic they add in?

So 3D world is different because it has a cat suit unlike the previous games? Or different because getting through a level is timed now? How is that more different from Destiny playing like a combination of Borderlands and Halo?

I'm not trying to set anything up, mostly just trying to understand what the issue here is.

You mentioned something about NSMB having some fantastic level design and that it's supposedly better than any level designs created in recent FPS games (granted you never actually said the last part but that's the feel I got from your post before).

I would but my bed sheets are in the wash at the moment. XD

the talk about sequilitis is tangentially related. what miyamoto's saying is that there's not enough feeling coming through from the part of the director, that it's getting lost in the creation process because the parts that are trendy get shoehorned into games without much reason for it. honestly, a good example of this might be metroid prime 2. the multiplayer was okay but it didn't really have a reason for being attached to that game other than other first-person shooters also having local multiplayer (still) at the time.

the golden deity michel ancel is making an mmo-only game, which is seemingly a trend in the current generation, but it really seems to be identifiably his style and unique in a way that it looks like something that was wanting to be made instead of being designed by committee.

you can have that in sequels too. retro wanted to do donkey kong country returns. eiji aonuma wants to make zelda games.

 

[Chindogg]

It's clear? Umm me ignoring stuff (I wasn't aware I was actually doing that) wasn't exactly intentional. 0_0

So 8 is different because it has new items and tracks? Isn't that same logic applied to FPS games that have new guns, maps, perks, and whatever twist mechanic they add in?

So 3D world is different because it has a cat suit unlike the previous games? Or different because getting through a level is timed now? How is that more different from Destiny playing like a combination of Borderlands and Halo?

I'm not trying to set anything up, mostly just trying to understand what the issue here is.

You mentioned something about NSMB having some fantastic level design and that it's supposedly better than any level designs created in recent FPS games (granted you never actually said the last part but that's the feel I got from your post before).

I would but my bed sheets are in the wash at the moment. XD

I'm done. I tried.

 

[JNA]

the talk about sequilitis is tangentially related. what miyamoto's saying is that there's not enough feeling coming through from the part of the director, that it's getting lost in the creation process because the parts that are trendy get shoehorned into games without much reason for it. honestly, a good example of this might be metroid prime 2. the multiplayer was okay but it didn't really have a reason for being attached to that game other than other first-person shooters also having local multiplayer (still) at the time.

I can understand that. Makes sense.

I'm done. I tried.

Well as long as you have tried, that's all anybody can ask of someone. I apologize for apparently not understanding you.

Like I said I'm not trying to pull your leg here, I'm just trying too understand the main issue here.

 

[entremet]

This is the problem with internet journalism. They're basically using snippets of content from the EDGE interview. It lacks context and nuance and then you have discussion like these where no one is even reading the snippet!

 

[JNA]

This is the problem with internet journalism. They're basically using snippets of content from the EDGE interview. It lacks context and nuance and then you have discussion like these where no one is even reading the snippet!

It sure confused the hell out of me apparently. XD

And I really did read it.

EDIT: I guess I'll just back out of this thread now. I don't think I'm providing much value to this discussion if some people here are too angry at me. Which is probably my fault.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I'm just trying too understand the main issue here.

Go read the article please.

 

[edgewalker]

This is the problem with internet journalism. They're basically using snippets of content from the EDGE interview. It lacks context and nuance and then you have discussion like these where no one is even reading the snippet!

I agree, after reading through the last 14 pages, the discussion has been all over the place.

 

[Poimandres]

It sure confused the hell out of me apparently. XD

And I really did read it.

EDIT: I guess I'll just back out of this thread now. I don't think I'm providing much value to this discussion if some people here are too angry at me. Which is probably my fault.

Chin up, man. I think people are being overly hostile to you personally.

 

[stevil]

It's a pity that this thread is going to be one of those Nintendo makes only zelda games en that is the same thing as yearly releases of cod etc.

I kinda miss the more weird and unique games of the older days, but I think it is not totally gone. Hopefully Sony will keep on creating stuff like puppet master. Appart from that I hope some indie studios will team up or will get a bigger budget so we can get interesting midrange games.

Fact is that the industry is maturing and like the movie industry big releases will follow a successful formula but there will still be room to create indy or more of beat releases and some people with massive following will get bigger budgets to make wonderful games just like we have in the movie industry

 

[SparkTR]

The industry isn't going to beat that with all the homogeneous, risk-averse games dominating the AAA market.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

It's clear? Umm me ignoring stuff (I wasn't aware I was actually doing that) wasn't exactly intentional. 0_0

So 8 is different because it has new items and tracks? Isn't that same logic applied to FPS games that have new guns, maps, perks, and whatever twist mechanic they add in?

So 3D world is different because it has a cat suit unlike the previous games? Or different because getting through a level is timed now? How is that more different from Destiny playing like a combination of Borderlands and Halo?

I'm not trying to set anything up, mostly just trying to understand what the issue here is.

You mentioned something about NSMB having some fantastic level design and that it's supposedly better than any level designs created in recent FPS games (granted you never actually said the last part but that's the feel I got from your post before).

I would but my bed sheets are in the wash at the moment. XD

EDIT: just so we're clear, I'm not trolling you or anything like that. I'm a nice guy (at least I like to think I am), you don't have to condescend me like I were one.

Not really sure if I am adding anything valuable to this debate, but Mario Kart clones and platformers do not come out near as often as FPS's or shooters in general. From my observation, at least half of Western developers have attempted or are proficient in creating FPS's that essentially follow the same formulas as other shooters from different companies. If that is what they are good at or prefer, then that is fine, but that doesn't change the irrefutable fact that shooters on the market outnumber Nintendo style games by a significant margin.

That brings me to this point. These so called 'samey" games of Mario/Mario Kart/etc are only on Nintendo systems in smaller quantities while these "samey" games Miyamoto was referring to by other developers are on literally every platform in pure abundance with no shame, apologies and no regrets with "familiar" elements being applied to new IP's all the time. I think it would be more of an issue if lets say, 65% of developers world-wide were shamelessly copying Mario Kart down to the character designs, colorful tracks, music style, controls, etc. Even if Mario Kart was once considered unique, I think the constant clones would immediately make the entire genre feel stagnate and I think the same would apply to Halo. Maybe it is me, but I just fail to see what Halo is doing that drastically differentiates it from most other FPS's.

 

[edgewalker]

The industry isn't going to beat that with all the homogeneous, risk-averse games dominating the AAA market.

I think Shuhei Yoshida made a very apt statement when he said "I don't understand people who only want AAA games". The reality is the the AAA market will always be risk averse, with huge investments at stake, this market space will always be dominated by same-y games. This is where the indies and AA games should come in, where game designers and creators have more freedom to be innovative. No Man's Sky is a great example.

 

[maxcriden]

He seemed to be quite ok with it when companies were producing same shovelware and mini-game collections for Wii.

do you have a direct quote?

I do:

Iwata: [laughs] Since we are being frank, what do you feel is the worst issue plaguing the Wii generation of games?

Miyamoto: Too much time has been spent on collections of smaller games. Games must be bigger. Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myslef. For games are large, and they contain multitudes.

 

[the thoroughbred]

I think people here are not really understanding what he is saying. The whole kettle and pot adage is redundant. He is saying developers are all making very similar games to each other, and are not doing something individual. Nintendo, yes have released Mario Kart 8, but they did invent that genre or at least did it well and popularised it. It is their own creation. And nobody else is really doing that. Same with Zelda as someone else brought up. There are very few if any games that are like Zelda and done to the same finish and quality. And this also applies to Mario. When they did Wii sports nobody else was doing anything like it, when they did Wii Music, and Smash Bros, and Kid Icarus, and Brain Training, Pikmin and countless others.

So Miyamoto is not talking about milking a franchise, he is talking about doing something different to what their competition/contemporaries are doing.

 

[Laconic]

So... a Mario game for each of four different platforms?

The horror.

 

[Shion]

“This year, the majority of what the other developers exhibited was bloody shooter software that was mainly set in violent surroundings or, in a different sense, realistic and cool worlds,” Miyamoto said at the time. “Because so many software developers are competing in that category, it seemed like most of the titles at the show were of that kind.”

Yeah, let's generalize the diversity in themes, aesthetics, worlds, characters etc. found in The Witcher 3, The Last of Us, Silent Hill, Arkham Knight, Mirror's Edge, Bloodborne and Destiny under the "realistic and cool worlds" label, because Miyamoto is allergic to games that reach beyond the kids/family audience. The matter of fact is that people are going to get different experiences by playing The Witcher 3, The Last of Us and Silent Hill.

I also love how Miyamoto of all people –a man who, among other things, loves to push this false dichotomy between mechanics and presentation by constantly shouting how stuff like themes, aesthetics, worlds, tone, characters etc. somehow don't matter in videogames– complaints about the homogenization of aesthetics.

At the same time, though, 99% of Nintendo's internally developed output is destined to either receive a Mario paint job, or follow the ridiculously overused "cutesy / Hello Kitty" aesthetic principles. Oh yeah, they also decided to turn Zelda into an anime that stars a very androgynous-looking 14 year old teen. Now, that's something you never see from Japanese fantasy games!

Oh, I’ve made quite the grand statement, haven’t I? My comment was based upon the fact that I have not been fully satisfied with the inspirations that I have or that other people in the industry have in general. I feel that industry tends, rather than the creator’s individuality and uniqueness, tend to be prioritized. When the people who manage the development budget take the lead in making a game, creators tend to make games that are already popular in the marketplace. Even when there is opportunity for young developers to make something freely, they tend to make similar proposals. I can’t help but feel that the industry has a long way to go. I hope Nintendo will always be a company that aggressively invests in something new – something born from each creator’s individual characteristics.

And yet, Nintendo is operating in this kind of over-managed and overly centralized structure that's making it difficult for new blood and ideas to emerge and for outside information to filter in. At the same time, EAD is obligated to follow Miyamoto's design principles with him guiding development solely towards the type of games that he, personally, prefers.

 

[AntiFacebook]

Yeah, because Nintendo doesn't recycle the same 5-6 franchises for almost 30 years now.

 

[Zing]

Yeah, because Nintendo doesn't recycle the same 5-6 franchises for almost 30 years now.

If you aren't going to read even the last page of replies, then why even click on the thread?

 

[FryHole]

If you aren't going to read even the last page of replies, then why even click on the thread?

What, and risk someone else getting that quip in before them?!

 

[tronic307]

Miyamoto is allergic to games that reach beyond the kids/family audience.

Nintendo fans are old. Consoles are dying because children have so many more choices in electronic entertainment these days. The more successful consoles cater to the tastes of teenagers, and as the age of the targeted demographic climbs (as in Nintendo's case), the sales diminish. If kids still liked Nintendo, Wii U would be flying off the shelves. What do kids care about nostalgia? This is why Sony and Microsoft have much more time than Nintendo, if this trend continues unabated. They're fortunate in that their fans tend to be about ten to twenty years younger.

 

[Chindogg]

Yeah, let's generalize the diversity in themes, aesthetics, worlds, characters etc. found in The Witcher 3, The Last of Us, Silent Hill, Arkham Knight, Mirror's Edge, Bloodborne and Destiny under the "realistic and cool worlds" label, because Miyamoto is allergic to games that reach beyond the kids/family audience. The matter of fact is that people are going to get different experiences by playing The Witcher 3, The Last of Us and Silent Hill.

I also love how Miyamoto of all people –a man who, among other things, loves to push this false dichotomy between mechanics and presentation by constantly shouting how stuff like themes, aesthetics, worlds, tone, characters etc. somehow don't matter in videogames– complaints about the homogenization of aesthetics.

At the same time, though, 99% of Nintendo's internally developed output is destined to either receive a Mario paint job, or follow the ridiculously overused "cutesy / Hello Kitty" aesthetic principles. Oh yeah, they also decided to turn Zelda into an anime that stars a very androgynous-looking 14 year old teen. Now, that's something you never see from Japanese fantasy games!


And yet, Nintendo is operating in this kind of over-managed and overly centralized structure that's making it difficult for new blood and ideas to emerge and for outside information to filter in. At the same time, EAD is obligated to follow Miyamoto's design principles with him guiding development solely towards the type of games that he, personally, prefers.

At least we read the OP, but still didn't read the article.

Baby steps I guess.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Yeah, because Nintendo doesn't recycle the same 5-6 franchises for almost 30 years now.

Page 15 ladies and gentlemen.

Yeah, let's generalize the diversity in themes, aesthetics, worlds, characters etc. found in The Witcher 3, The Last of Us, Silent Hill, Arkham Knight, Mirror's Edge, Bloodborne and Destiny under the "realistic and cool worlds" label, because Miyamoto is allergic to games that reach beyond the kids/family audience. The matter of fact is that people are going to get different experiences by playing The Witcher 3, The Last of Us and Silent Hill.

Except for Silent Hill, The Witcher, and Mirror's Edge (one a horror franchise, the other an open world... adventure game and the other an incredibly cool concept that has waited five years to get a sequel), all the other games feature weaponry designed to beat your enemies to submission. There's an insane ammount of games that feature gun violence as its primary engine, with mechanics built around the scenarios they paint.

Are there others? Sure, but most of the biggest names always have mechanics centered around firing a gun. I guess we live in the gun age of gaming.

I also love how Miyamoto of all people –a man who, among other things, loves to push this false dichotomy between mechanics and presentation by constantly shouting how stuff like themes, aesthetics, worlds, tone, characters etc. somehow don't matter in videogames– complaints about the homogenization of aesthetics.

What false dichotomy?

At the same time, though, 99% of Nintendo's internally developed output is destined to either receive a Mario paint job, or follow the ridiculously overused "cutesy / Hello Kitty" aesthetic principles. Oh yeah, they also decided to turn Zelda into an anime that stars a very androgynous-looking 14 year old teen. Now, that's something you never see from Japanese fantasy games!

And yet, Nintendo is operating in this kind of over-managed and overly centralized structure that's making it difficult for new blood and ideas to emerge and for outside information to filter in. At the same time, EAD is obligated to follow Miyamoto's design principles with him guiding development solely towards the type of games that he, personally, prefers.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. I do believe Nintendo needs to explore designing games centered around more mature themes, but I'd love it if whatever came out wasn't processed through the butt of a gun.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Are there others? Sure, but most of the biggest names always have mechanics centered around firing a gun. I guess we live in the gun age of gaming.

Video game have always been violent. once of the simplest ways to create player agency (or just a game, full stop) is to give the player a weapon/attacks and have enemies to fight since "fighting to not die" and "attack enemy until dead" are universally understood concepts that require no explanation. Compare that to puzzle games like Portal that require thoughtful and nonrepetitive level design. There will inevitably be tons of games that center on shooting/fighting.

Quite certain there's a bigger percentage of non-violent games in existence now than ever before too, what with digital sales platforms. The most lucrative games tend to be violent as fictional violence has widespread appeal, but even still.

 

[Kansoku]

Let me try to make this clear to everyone.
First consider this:

• Nintendo tends to focus on GAMEPLAY FIRST.
• Their process of making a game is: 1. Make a gameplay prototype 2. See if any IPs they have fits with this gameplay or if it's better to create a new IP. 3. Proceed to create the rest of the game.

What Miyamoto is saying:

1. He is talking about what was DISPLAYED ON E3.
2. He is talking about DIFFERENT DEVELOPERS all making the same style of game.
3. He is talking about how DEVELOPERS CREATIVITY IS "SHUNNED" in order to make the same types of games.
4. He is NOT, I repeat, NOT talking about sequels in the same franchise.
5. He is talking about the INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, HIMSELF INCLUDED

Is that clear now? Let me talk trough these points.

1.What we got in E3 from AAA was shooters everywhere, glorified violence everywhere. What we got in E3 from indies: lot's of 2D platforms, some variety. (Yes I am being reductionist and generalizing. I don't have neither the time nor the will to go trough a list of E3 titles to get this correct.)

2. There's a bunch of developers who are making shooters right now (be they first person or third person). Some as an example: DICE/EA, Actvision, Bungie, Santa Monica, Ubisoft, ad a bunch more. They have difference in the worlds and whatnot but from a GAMEPLAY perspective, they are ALL REALLY SIMILAR.

3. If a developer has a new idea for a new game or a change in a series, often they're not listened because the game has to appeal to the majority in order to sell well.

4. and 5. self explanatory.

I would like to write more about this but I have to go to college now, so maybe later.

 

[Aroll]

Well since NSMB is just one series, let me ask an honest question.

What's the big difference between Mario Kart 8 and 7 in terms of gameplay? Same with Mario 3-D World and previous Mario platformers?

I mean what are we arguing? That genres of all these different IPs play similar to all games that are in the same genre? So Destiny is not original because it's a first person shooter? Is it just tackling on one genre and any company that doesn't do FPS games are better companies for it? Is level design suddenly the biggest indicator in originality?

Maybe I'm just tired idk lol.

*sigh*

Sure, I can talk about the differences between new games to old games, but that's not what Miyamoto is talking about. He's not referencing continuous franchises. What a surprise, Mario plays like Mario! Kart plays like Kart! Zelda plays like Zelda!

His general complaint isn't about franchises in particular, but about the samey feeling you get at these events as it feels like a majority of the big budget industry are all going in the exact same direction.

In fact, let's look at some of the biggest games at last E3:

- Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare
- Battlefield
- Destiny
- Alien Isolation
- Assassin's Creed
- Batman
- Bloodborne
- Borderlands: The Prequel
- Crackdown
- The Crew
- Dead Island 2
- Dragon Age
- Evolve
- The Evil Within
- Far Cry 4
- Halo 5
- Kingdom Hearts 3
- LittleBigPlanet 3
- Mass Effect 4
- Rainbow Six
- The Devision
- Uncharted 4
- The Witcher 3

(I might have forgotten a few (not counting Nintendo games), but this should serve my purpose)

On this list we have 9 First Person shooters. That makes up almost half the list of major games coming out. All of them existing in one single genre, some of which simply keep coming out every single year. As an example - is it truly fair to compare say, NSMB to Call of Duty? 4 games in an 8 year span versus 8 games in an 8 year span.

Of games that are basically about nothing but shooting and killing folks. When you walked around the E3 floor this year, pretty much the games most advertised and easiest to find to play were all games where the graphics feature something similar to trying to mimic real life and shooting and killing other people - both in single player and multiplayer. A real lack of variety in these experiences.

Miyamoto also openly admits Nintendo isn't exempt from criticism, just that what he is talking about right now isn't about what Nintendo does. Nintendo is guilty of milking Mario's name and arguably sequelitis, but when they come up with a new idea... it's typically original. Animal Crossing. Pikmin. STEAM. Splatoon. These "core" experiences may feel far and few between, but they are all very original and feel like nothing else in their own genre, let alone on the market today.

On that list, the only new game that doesn't feel like it might be basically like every other game is The Evil Within.

The only reason Nintendo's games feel so refreshing compared to the rest of the industry is that so few folks even attempt to make games like they do, and the few who try fail typically. Nintendo certainly can use more newer core IP's, but the basic premise still remains here: The whole of the gaming industry feels like we are trying to captalize on basically 3 main types of games and gameplay: FPS/3rd person shooter, Western Style RPG (typically of the high fantasy variety), and Action-Adventure.

NIntendo is obviously pingeon holed in terms of the paltformer genre, but who else is even bothering to release quality platforming games. Sega with Sonic? It's about general trends, not what individual companies are doing wrong.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Yeah, because Nintendo doesn't recycle the same 5-6 franchises for almost 30 years now.

sigh... You do realize in those 30 years Mario has shaped the way we play games to this day.

Also a sequel to one of the most popular games in history doesn't count in the discussion of new IP, which Miyamoto was commenting on.

But if you want to talk sequels, Call of Duty, Assassins Creed, etc.. are coming close to catching up to having the same amount of games as main-Mario

Call of Duty may be even and it's no where near as old as Mario (main Mario not spinoff referee Mario in punch out)

 

[balohna]

It's clear? Umm me ignoring stuff (I wasn't aware I was actually doing that) wasn't exactly intentional. 0_0

So 8 is different because it has new items and tracks? Isn't that same logic applied to FPS games that have new guns, maps, perks, and whatever twist mechanic they add in?

So 3D world is different because it has a cat suit unlike the previous games? Or different because getting through a level is timed now? How is that more different from Destiny playing like a combination of Borderlands and Halo?

I'm not trying to set anything up, mostly just trying to understand what the issue here is.

You mentioned something about NSMB having some fantastic level design and that it's supposedly better than any level designs created in recent FPS games (granted you never actually said the last part but that's the feel I got from your post before).

I would but my bed sheets are in the wash at the moment. XD

EDIT: just so we're clear, I'm not trolling you or anything like that. I'm a nice guy (at least I like to think I am), you don't have to condescend me like I were one.

Bold are things that the person you replied to explicitly and distinctly did NOT say.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Games have become too much alike, but at least it feels that it has changed a little bit? The shooter-esque dominance seems slightly less dominant with indies becoming bit more prominant.

Spoiler

Or maybe I am over estimating indies :/

Miyamoto is right indeed. However there seems to be some arguments against Nintendo. Quite a lot of people are claiming that Nintendo is guilty of the same thing, doing games that are too much same-y. Quite a lot of people are also ready to defend Nintendo against their games that might feel too similiar. Well unfortunately for defenders...

IMO people, and perhaps even Miyamoto & Nintendo dont seem to be realising that people take comparisions on simple level really. Just look at that NSMB picture comparision. Besides maybe NSMBU, they totally look like each other. They appear same-y. Do they play differently? Yes they do, but bigger mainstream people are not really thinking it that deep. Sure, comparing the time of release & actual game mechanics of those games makes it clear that those games are a whole different beast. But just looking at them? Yes they have become same-y looking. Nintendo & Miyamoto have different design philosophies on gaming, at least when compared to western minded people. However western minded people are in dominance as of now, so it is no wonder that Nintendo gets accused of same-yness as well.

If Nintendo & Miyamoto would want to stop making people think that their games look so same-y they would have to make them look different. Unfortunately, I dont think they can convince people with just different gameplay that their games might not be same-y.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Yeah, let's generalize the diversity in themes, aesthetics, worlds, characters etc. found in The Witcher 3, The Last of Us, Silent Hill, Arkham Knight, Mirror's Edge, Bloodborne and Destiny under the "realistic and cool worlds" label, because Miyamoto is allergic to games that reach beyond the kids/family audience. The matter of fact is that people are going to get different experiences by playing The Witcher 3, The Last of Us and Silent Hill.

I also love how Miyamoto of all people –a man who, among other things, loves to push this false dichotomy between mechanics and presentation by constantly shouting how stuff like themes, aesthetics, worlds, tone, characters etc. somehow don't matter in videogames– complaints about the homogenization of aesthetics.

At the same time, though, 99% of Nintendo's internally developed output is destined to either receive a Mario paint job, or follow the ridiculously overused "cutesy / Hello Kitty" aesthetic principles. Oh yeah, they also decided to turn Zelda into an anime that stars a very androgynous-looking 14 year old teen. Now, that's something you never see from Japanese fantasy games!


And yet, Nintendo is operating in this kind of over-managed and overly centralized structure that's making it difficult for new blood and ideas to emerge and for outside information to filter in. At the same time, EAD is obligated to follow Miyamoto's design principles with him guiding development solely towards the type of games that he, personally, prefers.

Link's 14?????

MEGATON, Link's age confirmed.

 

[Katzenjammer]

Let me try to make this clear to everyone.
First consider this:

• Nintendo tends to focus on GAMEPLAY FIRST.
• Their process of making a game is: 1. Make a gameplay prototype 2. See if any IPs they have fits with this gameplay or if it's better to create a new IP. 3. Proceed to create the rest of the game.

What Miyamoto is saying:

1. He is talking about what was DISPLAYED ON E3.
2. He is talking about DIFFERENT DEVELOPERS all making the same style of game.
3. He is talking about how DEVELOPERS CREATIVITY IS "SHUNNED" in order to make the same types of games.
4. He is NOT, I repeat, NOT talking about sequels in the same franchise.
5. He is talking about the INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, HIMSELF INCLUDED

Is that clear now? Let me talk trough these points.

1.What we got in E3 from AAA was shooters everywhere, glorified violence everywhere. What we got in E3 from indies: lot's of 2D platforms, some variety. (Yes I am being reductionist and generalizing. I don't have neither the time nor the will to go trough a list of E3 titles to get this correct.)

2. There's a bunch of developers who are making shooters right now (be they first person or third person). Some as an example: DICE/EA, Actvision, Bungie, Santa Monica, Ubisoft, ad a bunch more. They have difference in the worlds and whatnot but from a GAMEPLAY perspective, they are ALL REALLY SIMILAR.

3. If a developer has a new idea for a new game or a change in a series, often they're not listened because the game has to appeal to the majority in order to sell well.

4. and 5. self explanatory.

I would like to write more about this but I have to go to college now, so maybe later.

I enjoyed this post. And I agree with Miyamoto, I'm quite bored of the gritty, bloody, shooty and murdery games that seem to dominate the AAA space right now. It's all about chasing the money, and while it makes sense from a business perspective, it's hindering creativity and progress.

 

[metalslimer]

Doesn't Miyamoto have signficant influence over what games get made at Nintendo?

 

[PrivateRyan]

Compared to 7, 8 has anti-gravity and superior online infrastructure, and the option to grow through the generation with DLC content etc.

While I don't think there needs to be a checklist of new features to justify a sequel, this is a pretty poor list to present as a counterargument.

 

[jimi_dini]

Just look at that NSMB picture comparision. Besides maybe NSMBU, they totally look like each other. They appear same-y.

That are 4 games in total. On 4 different platforms. 2 for handhelds. 2 for home consoles.

One was released 2006, one 2009 and 2 released in 2012 (one handheld, one home console). 1 is even HD. Other companies would have released NSMB/Wii in HD instead of creating a new one.

You know when the last 2D mario platformer got released before those? 1991. Yeah right, we had to wait 15 freaking years to get one. And I wouldn't really count NSMB/DS. NSMB/Wii was the first proper 2D mario on a home console. So 18 freaking years.

That's not the same as this here:

It's not even close. The other mario titles look different and play different. Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look like NSMB. At all. And SMG doesn't look like Super Mario 3D World. They also play differently. They are all platformers and they all feature Mario as a playable character.

 

[johnsavage]

What Miyamoto is saying:

1. He is talking about what was DISPLAYED ON E3.
2. He is talking about DIFFERENT DEVELOPERS all making the same style of game.
3. He is talking about how DEVELOPERS CREATIVITY IS "SHUNNED" in order to make the same types of games.
4. He is NOT, I repeat, NOT talking about sequels in the same franchise.
5. He is talking about the INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, HIMSELF INCLUDED

Is that clear now? Let me talk trough these points.

More people need to read this. The discussion would be a lot better.

 

[Axass]

I'm done. I tried.

That's not the same as this here:

That's nothing, I already tried with this:

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

More people need to read this. The discussion would be a lot better.

It's a lost cause. A number of people here probably know they're mistaken but they're in too deep, so they'll continue posting ignorant statements that have nothing to do with the thread. I bet we'll even get another "Lulz wut about teh NSMB?!1!" post

 

[TMaakkonen]

That are 4 games in total. On 4 different platforms. 2 for handhelds. 2 for home consoles.

One was released 2006, one 2009 and 2 released in 2012 (one handheld, one home console).

You know when the last 2D mario platformer before that? 1991. Yeah right, we had to wait 15 freaking years to get one. And I wouldn't really count NSMB. NSMB/Wii was the first proper 2D mario on a home console. 18 freaking years.

That's not the same as this here:

It's not even close. The other mario titles look different and play different. Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look like NSMB. At all. And SMG doesn't look like Super Mario 3D World. They also play differently. They are all platformers and they all feature Mario as a playable character.

Dear lord, I was just saying what people in general are saying. Did you even read what I wrote. It doesnt matter how they were created they still look a like. Besides, where the hell am I claiming that shooters dont look like each other?

Even then your 2D Mario checking is kind of not right. Arent you missing SNES 2D game called Yoshi's Island? Also known in western markets as Super Mario World 2? Do we also just ignore GBA remakes? Sure sure you are right that it was very long time for real sequel and home sequel specifically......

Aaaaand that has nothing to do with what I said. I said they look similiar. They LOOK similiar. I am not claiming they play similiar.

I am getting quite displeased now. A lot of people are trying to defend their hardest for Nintendo for some reason. I was calmly saying that their games just look same, NOT PLAY SAME, yet this gets shaped to be yet another mindless "lolnintendosdoomezdshootahs4lyfe", which it wasnt. Look Nintendo might have made mistake by making games LOOK similiar, but why am I bringing this up? Maybe Nintendo could, you know, learn from mistakes? Maybe they could acknowledge this small mistake? They could shine even better if Nintendo would learn from simple mistakes. This isnt even ground shattering "0/10" situation, their games just look a like. Perhaps they could also make games different looking? I believe Nintendo could be able to do that without sacrificing gameplay. Sure sure you and me and most of Neogaf can see differences, but can the mass people?

 

[jimi_dini]

Dear lord, I was just saying what people in general are saying. Did you even read what I wrote. It doesnt matter how they were created they still look a like.

Calm down. I was just adding this information. I read what you wrote.

I should stop quoting people in those cases.

Arent you missing SNES 2D game called Yoshi's Island?

That's not a mario platformer. That's just another platformer. A superb one at that, but not a mario platformer.

Nintendo shut down 2d mario platformers for ages, because of Super Mario 64. And that's why I was really happy about NSMB/DS, NSMB/Wii and even more so about NSMBU.

That's like Activision shutting down Call Of Duty and then releasing another one after 15 or 18 years. Well not for me personally, but that would be the same for shooter fans. Well in case almost no shooters would get released during that timeframe.

 

[Akhe]

Some people need an eye exam.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Calm down. I was just adding this information. I read what you wrote.

I should stop quoting people in those cases.



That's not a mario platformer. That's just another platformer. A superb one at that, but not a mario platformer.

Nintendo shut down 2d mario platformers for ages, because of Super Mario 64. And that's why I was really happy about NSMB/DS, NSMB/Wii and even more so about NSMBU.

Yes you should be more careful with quoting. Also that pic you showed? Posted on this very page earlier lol. It felt like pandering.

I honestly feel like the sameyness can mostly be blamed on NSMB2. The original, infact is perfectyly fine. And Wii version was actually big improvement. Even NSMBU looks more different and has more functions. It could almost get away from looking the same. And then comes NSMB2. It looks so much like both NSMB & NSMBW. It brings back Tanooki leaf? Woo... And then its biggest selling point... Is coin gimmick. Coin gimmick. also it was released same year as NSMBU. Bad timing on that one.

This might go off-topic, so we should cut this off here. Wanting & having those NSMB games is fine, and the games themselves are fine too. I just think that there is enough of those games that they look bit too much a like. And certainly does a lot other people with Mario in general. I mean this wasnt as bad with original SMB 1-3 & World. The 4 NSMBs games do look at least little a like.

Shooters look in general waay too much a like each other. Nintendo is not as bad, but we shouldnt act like they are perfect.

 

[shauntu]

What most of you are complaining about:



What the real problem is:



Those are all different games from the last three console generations. I couldn't tell one apart from the other even if my life depended on it.

I can only showcase graphics here, but the case for gameplay is even worse. Nintendo is well known to try heaps of new things inside the same series of games, sometimes going as far as to change the focus of the franchise completely. Above are a vast amount of different games, from different publishers which are all basically the same graphic-wise and gameplay-wise, minus a few differences. I can give you that the New Super Mario Bros series is samey as hell, but that's the only case of uninspired sequels you'll finf in the whole portfolio of Nintendo, and even those are way more different from each other than what I just posted above.

Awesome post, quite illustrative! I would suggest doing a series of single images from various 2D and 3D platformers over 3 console generations though, rather than including Zelda, Metroid, Splatoon, for the point to be made best that the games are more identifiable -- and include 3rd parties like Rayman and Spyro/Skylanders

 

[RMS Gigantic]

Spoiler

He's right but he needs to practice what he preaches a little

Spoiler

Miyamoto was one of the chief people behind both entries in the Steel Diver series, and now has his smaller projects taking up his time.

 

[atr0cious]

There's not so many huge AAA devs anymore. But, let's take just one major AAA publisher

Ubisoft ->

armless crazy weirdo creature (Rayman)
cartooney french style world war I characters (Valiant Hearts)
amazingly colorful princess and her hair (Child of Light)
a female photojournalist and her best friend pig (BG&E)
Arabian Prince (Prince of Persia)
DUDEBRO EXTRACTION TEAMS (Rainbow Six)
Native Americans, Italians, etc (Assassin's Creed)
Rabbids
and lots of white bald guys

EA and Activision both as well have incredibly diverse lineups when you include the full range of products they make, includes stuff like dance products, simulators, racing games, fighting games. They do everything.

This is arguing in bad faith; good job picking the obvious one, that happens to have a stable. Activision only has diversity by the transitive property of owning Blizzard, and even then it's not diverse, by PC standards at all. EA could only be called diverse if 2 eventual sim games and mobile is all it takes to be diverse. And EA represents a third of all current gen sales.

See, the thing is... it all matters. The second someone tries to pretend some element o gaming doesn't matter, that's the second one has to tune them out. They're wrong. Gaming is about it all, and Nintendo's problem - Miyamoto's - is that for some reason he thinks he's allowed to talk about how stagnant the industry is while frequently neglecting to reinvigorate a huge element of his own products. Gameplay is not the only thing that needs to be new much more frequently.
.

I'd argue there is no point to a sequel if the gameplay isn't changed. Which is why you see so many repackaged ips with different control schemes that make you do the same damn thing as the last game, so they can get money out of people who just need a new label on everything. The AAA industry has been come a tabloid industry, where each new game is barely improved so they have something to deliver on next time. Case in point: Sunset Overdrive is Ratchet and Clank with a new paint job. Or Dead Rising with better mobility.

 

[Jigorath]

Yes yes we get it Miyamoto. The gaming industry was so much better when Nintendo was in charge.