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Kirby: I'm tired of copying Super Star, let's go Dream Land next time!

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I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
With every series, there is that game, or games, that overshadow everything else and whenever a company wishes to draw upon classic nostalgia for a new title or representation in a spin-off or cameo, they pick and choose from that game. Zelda usually digs into LTTP or Ocarina, Mario goes with stuff from either Mario 1 or, recently, Mario 3, Pokemon uses RBY, Donkey Kong goes with Donkey Kong Country, and Kirby goes with Super Star.

Don't get me wrong, Super Star is a great game. Arguably the best mainline Kirby out there, and I'd even suggest Sakurai's true magnum-opus. It introduced many popular elements like the Hat-based Power System, and its influence can be felt in basically all future Kirby titles, as well as being the greatest influence when it comes to Kirby in Smash, alongside Kirby's Adventure. Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe take after it the most. But while I'd like to see more occurrences of Mario paying homage to Mario Bros. USA, Zelda paying homage to Zelda II or Link's Awakening, and Donkey Kong homaging Donkey Kong Country 3, I would love Kirby to start giving some love towards the Dream Land "Trilogy".

The Dream Land "Trilogy" includes Dream Land 2, Dream Land 3, and 64, the trio of games of developed by Shinichi Shimomura and focus around Kirby's fight with Dark Matter. Many elements of these games though have been basically dumped, especially the characters that originated in them---one explanation I've seen is due to Shimomura himself, a real mystery it seems. For whatever reason, he left Nintendo after 64, one rumor I saw said he became a landscaper, another said he died, and it seems HAL wished to retire many of his creations alongside him. The Animal Friends, the main three, got a cameo in Triple Deluxe, but that's pretty much it, Gooey, Adeleine, and Dark Matter have all basically vanished. It's a shame. Does anyone know the truth behind Shimomura?

Anyway, these are the basic elements of the Dream Land Trilogy I'd love to see return:

1. Style

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Kirby Dream Land 3 and 64 were really the last mainline Kirby games with an innovative look to them, an adorable pastel style. While I love the look of Epic-Yarn, and the upcoming Rainbow Curse, the mainline Kirby games Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe have sort of stagnated, a bit like the New Super Mario Bros. series has. Don't get me wrong, they have a solid look to them, and aren't bad, but they don't feel that distinct. I'd love to see them play around with the look of the next Kirby, and going a "crayon drawing look", like imagine that all the characters are 3D models but their coloring and lines are like they were scribbled in with crayon, and perhaps stutter like it's a flip-book, would be amazing.

Gameplay wise, the Dream Land Trilogy I felt had a really interesting pace---Kirby moved much slower than he does in Super Star and later games, and the camera was zoomed out more for more wide-open areas, and because of that I found them to be much harder. Especially Dream Land 3, without the wide array of skills of each power, and no block, you really have to take things more slowly. You can't quite rush into things, and many powers leave Kirby wide open after using them due to ending lag, such as the Fire Power. I died quite often when I replayed it, and some of the challenges---often requiring you to get through a level without dying or else lose the power or Animal Friend you need to beat it---were way more difficult than the stuff in the newer games. I want a return to that slower, almost "puzzle" element of the Dream Land games. Haven't played 64 in a while, though, but I recall it being a bit quicker.

2. Power System + Animal Friends

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The greatest addition to the Kirby Series in Super Star was what I like to call the "Variable Power System", i.e. powers now had a wide away of abilities, almost like a little fighting game. This was quite different from past Kirby games, and Dream Land 3 and 64, where the powers on their own just had on attack. However, those games had an interesting element of "mix powers", being able to combine powers in a variety of ways, Dream Land 3 had the Animal Friends, while 64 had the Combo Powers. I'd love to see those return to mix things up, as opposed to simply having a bunch of super-strong powers like Returns and Triple Deluxe, as it opens up more chances to experiment. In Returns and Triple Deluxe, most of the time I end up just finding a power, and sticking with it, because most of them are so versatile you only need one. But I think limiting the abilities of the powers, and having a clever mechanic where each power is weak on its own, but you can combine them with another power or a character, is a bit more fun and whimsical.

Particularly, I'd love to see the Animal Friends return. That was my favorite part of Dream Land 3, and there were some interesting stages where in order to get 100%, you had to beat a large part of the level with a certain Animal Friend, often working against them, such as one level with the slow and weak jumper Rick which was filled with pits. Nintendo is really letting their Animal Friends go to waste, only Epona, Yoshi and Rambi get an ounce of respect, but all the other ones are dead. Pine! Squitter! Moosh! Come back!

3. Gooey!

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I'm a bit tired of King DeDeDe and Meta Knight now, and I'd love to see Kirby's old buddy Gooey return. Having another character that can copy like Kirby, that isn't just a recolored Kirby, is something the series is really missing nowadays, and the interesting way Gooey was incorporated in Dream Land 3 was really fun, where the Gooey player could both help and hinder Kirby by taking away his health, but could be eaten to recover. I'd probably make Gooey a bit more distinct, like perhaps his version of the neutral copy powers could be slightly different, but overall, I just find him to be adorable! You know, looking at a poll I found, apparently the most popular request for Kirby during the development of Smash Bros. Melee in Japan was Gooey! It's a shame ultimately that Melee became his last appearance ever as a simple Trophy, and since then he's been forgotten. Come back, Gooey! On another note, a part of Gooey's character that was never fleshed out was him being part of Dark Matter. I think that'd be an interesting angle to explore in a new game.

4. Ado/Adeleine

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The painter friend in Kirby Dream Land 3 and 64, is another character that sadly disappeared, the only real human presence in Kirby. Some say they're different characters (people think Ado's a guy, Adeleine's a girl), while others think "Ado" was merely a shortening of Adeleine's Japanese spelling, Adoreenu. Anyway, bring back the "human painter" character, probably a support character. You know, both Canvas Curse and Rainbow Curse would be the perfect time to bring her back, I mean, she fits so well! But if she appeared in a mainline Kirby game, I imagine she'd fill the support role she did in 64, although maybe you could use the stylus to increase her role, like in some levels giving her the ability to draw pathways for Kirby and Gooey to traverse.

5. Clean

Why the heck hasn't the coolest power returned?
 
but superstar gameplay is so fast and fun

Dreamland is more like, epic yarn style. slower and more artistic.

There's definitely room for both styles.
 
If I recall correctly, the original Dream Land games were all directed by a different guy than sakurai (Shinichi Shimomura), so Nintendo probably saw it as a detour rather than the future of the series. It's a true shame, as I like power combining way more than powers with lots of attacks. Dark Matter was also a great recurring villain.
 
I like SuperStar, but I think they put in way too much going on with the powerups and attacks, and I wasn't a huge fan of the mini-games.

Adventure/ KMID is the best style Kirby. It's more streamline and doesn't have an abundance of unnecessary moves.

The Dreamland series, is too slow for me, though it has more charm than the rest of the Kirby series.
 
The Dream (Land) is dead. Return to Dreamland shows they seem to no longer consider there to be two "styles" of Kirby like Super Star vs Dream Land 3 might lead you to believe. That's a firmly "Dream Land" game and it's still Super Star speed and attack style.

While I love the aesthetics of Dream Land 3, I think the style issues are mostly due to 3D. All the 3D mainline Kirby games (sorta even including 64 really) have a fairly similar look, and as Yoshi's New Island goes to show, some art styles really just don't work with 3D models. I do wish they'd do a 2D mainline Kirby again but...I don't really hold out hope.

On the plus side, Canvas Curse, Rainbow Curse, Epic Yarn and the like show they can still do amazing art styles (though Epic Yarn was sorta already a style with Kirby tossed in). Not sure if I want to actually revisit dreamland as a whole ,but I WOULD kill for a new, 2D Kirby with a beautiful unique art style. ...but I'm kinda meh on Animal Pals as they go and in hand with my least favorite feature in a (mainline) Kirby game: one attack per power.

but superstar gameplay is so fast and fun

Dreamland is more like, epic yarn style. slower and more artistic.

Both styles are good, but there's definitely room for both.

The slowness really does kill the replayability of the Dreamland games for me.
 
I would love to see another Dream Land game, you basically mentioned all the reasons why (Animal buddies being the biggest one).
 
If I recall correctly, the original Dream Land games were all directed by a different guy than sakurai (Shinichi Shimomura), so Nintendo probably saw it as a detour rather than the future of the series.

You realize Sakurai only directed five Kirby games---Dream Land, Adventure, Super Star, Air Ride, and Nightmare, and the last one I believe was a less hands-on-approach since it was a remake, and according to Wikipedia, Shimomura was a co-director.

So, Shimomura was just as much of a part of Kirby as Sakurai was. So it's a shame the latest Kirby games ignore most of his contributions.
 
Gooey, Adeleine, and Dark Matter have all basically vanished.

Well, Dark Matter did show up in Kirby Mass Attack's RPG minigame. As well as the fact that
it's sorta implied that some of the villains since may have been influenced by Zero, including Magolor
. Other than that, I really do miss Dark Matter's presence as the main villain.
 
Another great touch of Dream Land 3 were the animations.

Kirby and Gooey striking a little pose whenever they landed, and the Animal Friends getting jealous over the other getting picked.
 
I too miss Kirby's friends; however, I feel the Dream Land games are some of the weaker games in the series. Love the original, but the latter two have a weird uneven quality (particularly Dream Land 2, which the beginning worlds are probably some of the worst examples of 2D level design in Nintendo history).

I say keep aping Super Star.
 
Despite the name, I don't count the original Dream Land as part of the trilogy---and later it became linked with Super Star thanks to Spring Breeze.
 
I too miss Kirby's friends; however, I feel the Dream Land games are some of the weaker games in the series. Love the original, but the latter two have a weird uneven quality (particularly Dream Land 2, which the beginning worlds are probably some of the worst examples of 2D level design in Nintendo history).

I say keep aping Super Star.

That's.. certainly a surprising statement. I completely disagree. While I would accept Super Star as a choice for best Kirby game any day of the week, Dream Land 2 is my personal favourite. Care to elaborate on the bolded?
 
I've been playing Dream Land 3, it's fun and the art style is great, but gameplay wise it doesn't hold a candle to Super Star or more recent games, it's just... uninteresting. The level design and powers are much better now, although I'd like to see the animal friends return.
 
That's.. certainly a surprising statement. I completely disagree. While I would accept Super Star as a choice for best Kirby game any day of the week, Dream Land 2 is my personal favourite. Care to elaborate on the bolded?

It's a game I also happen to love, yet with a broken heart. Everything from Ripple Fields and on is a natural ascension in quality and presentation, but Grass Land and Big Forest are so lifeless in design and challenge even for a Kirby game, and about the only interesting feature is that Big Forest occasionally utilizes a bigger sense of scope. That they're both thematically next-door biomes also instills an off-putting homogenization I've never cared for.

It's so weird too considering the last two worlds are master-tier, particularly Cloudy Park which I consider to be one of Kirby's greatest moments, and yet the game's opening is so dumbed-down and uninspired in comparison that it's hard to believe it's from the same development team. Shimomura had talent, but I just can't help but feel he and the gang went too far with the original Dream Land's objective ("A game where anyone can reach the ending"). I also believe Dream Land 3 and (to an extent) Kirby 64 had similar issues.

I know level design isn't Kirby's forte and those two worlds aren't that long, but they always left a sour first impression and it wasn't until the Dream Collection released that I was able to chug through the whole thing. Bear in mind I still think it's a good game, just one that gets off on the wrong foot.
 
It's a game I also happen to love, yet with a broken heart. Everything from Ripple Fields and on is a natural ascension in quality and presentation, but Grass Land and Big Forest are so lifeless in design and challenge even for a Kirby game, and about the only interesting feature is that Big Forest occasionally utilizes a bigger sense of scope. That they're both thematically next-door biomes also instills an off-putting homogenization I've never cared for.

It's so weird too considering the last two worlds are master-tier, particularly Cloudy Park which I consider to be one of Kirby's greatest moments, and yet the game's opening is so dumbed-down and uninspired in comparison that it's hard to believe it's from the same development team. Shimomura had talent, but I just can't help but feel he and the gang went too far with the original Dream Land's objective ("A game where anyone can reach the ending"). I also believe Dream Land 3 and (to an extent) Kirby 64 had similar issues.

I know level design isn't Kirby's forte and those two worlds aren't that long, but they always left a sour first impression and it wasn't until the Dream Collection released that I was able to chug through the whole thing. Bear in mind I still think it's a good game, just one that gets off on the wrong foot.

I still disagree as a) I think what you describe applies to a lot if not all (traditional) Kirby games b) I don't mind the "easing the player in" aspect of it c) I never perceived it as homogenous but rather as natural progression (e.g. I would fine Grass > Beach > Forest much more jarring; also, they do a great job of building on the array of enemies established in the first world which wouldn't be possible with a vastly different world theme) and d) in DL2, I'm a fan of World 2 especially (meeting Coo, the verticality of it, the music).

Thanks for elaborating, though!
 
I started playing adventure Kirby games with Crystal Shards. Dreamland 3 is the only other Kirby game that has the same feel to it. They really ought to bring Kirby's friends back.
 
Thinking it'd over, I probably would return to the Kine, Coo, and Rick set-up to start with for simplicity sake.

I liked Nago, Pitch, and Chuu, though, but they were a bit redundant when Kine, Coo, and Rick hit a nice balance in terms of usability. I'd probably cut Nago, turn Pitch into an occasional item you can pick up like the items in Return to Dreamland, or give him a helper role like Squawks in DKCR, and as for Chuu, I think bumping her up to an actual character would be great.
 
They're very fun games that mangle themselves with collectathon BS right at the end. I shouldn't have to search levels for inane objects just to get to the final boss. I feel that forcing the endgame to be entirely about exploration was a mistake.

I'm all for the style and characters returning though.
 
They need to stop leaning towards either style and do something new (within the action/platformer framework, I mean, I know they do lots of radically different Kirby games all the time).
 
It's a game I also happen to love, yet with a broken heart. Everything from Ripple Fields and on is a natural ascension in quality and presentation, but Grass Land and Big Forest are so lifeless in design and challenge even for a Kirby game, and about the only interesting feature is that Big Forest occasionally utilizes a bigger sense of scope. That they're both thematically next-door biomes also instills an off-putting homogenization I've never cared for.

It's so weird too considering the last two worlds are master-tier, particularly Cloudy Park which I consider to be one of Kirby's greatest moments, and yet the game's opening is so dumbed-down and uninspired in comparison that it's hard to believe it's from the same development team. Shimomura had talent, but I just can't help but feel he and the gang went too far with the original Dream Land's objective ("A game where anyone can reach the ending"). I also believe Dream Land 3 and (to an extent) Kirby 64 had similar issues.

I know level design isn't Kirby's forte and those two worlds aren't that long, but they always left a sour first impression and it wasn't until the Dream Collection released that I was able to chug through the whole thing. Bear in mind I still think it's a good game, just one that gets off on the wrong foot.

I feel like Dream Land 3 is an even bigger offender of this than Dream Land 2, to be honest. DL3 doesn't even get really going until the last set of levels/bosses.

That being said, I guess I wouldn't mind the classic DL style being revisited. Dreamland 2 and 64 are my favorite Kirby games outside of Super Star and Triple Deluxe.
 
I don't see the new Kirby games as playing off Superstar's nostalgia, I more see Kirby as a series that builds off itself and keeps around what works for the next game. Like how Superstar had the power up hats and powers with more than one use that worked a bit like Smash move sets (how you do a different move if you hold right, etc, and yes I know Superstar came first), Nightmare in Dreamland added the ability to play as Meta Knight after beating the main game and Superstar Ultra added hard mode with super bosses, different final bosses for different characters and the true arena, where you fight every new boss in the post-game.

I think it's okay that mainline kirbys mostly build off each other and we end up with several rather samey games, because the Kirby franchise is constantly reinventing itself in spinoffs.
 
I don't see the new Kirby games as playing off Superstar's nostalgia, I more see Kirby as a series that builds off itself and keeps around what works for the next game. Like how Superstar had the power up hats and powers with more than one use that worked a bit like Smash move sets (how you do a different move if you hold right, etc, and yes I know Superstar came first), Nightmare in Dreamland added the ability to play as Meta Knight after beating the main game and Superstar Ultra added hard mode with super bosses, different final bosses for different characters and the true arena, where you fight every new boss in the post-game.

I think it's okay that mainline kirbys mostly build off each other and we end up with several rather samey games, because the Kirby franchise is constantly reinventing itself in spinoffs.
It's more that it is building off of Sakurai's work and outright ignoring the other guy's.
 
The dream land games WERE Kirby for me as a kid, I didnt play superstar and adventure until I was a teen. Id love a return to the mechanics/cast of 2,3 and 64!
 
I only really liked Kirby 64 because of the double powers or combinations you could make. If they brought that back I'd be happy. :)
 
Yeah, I think it's noticeable that for all the powers Kirby has brought back in the newer games, the only one that debuted in Dream Land, Clean, is conspicuously missing. Yet they regularly still include the Broom-type enemy.

It seems only Dark Matter really gets any sort of love in the newer games, usually just because the idea of an unfitting final boss is a Kirby tradition at this point, so a lot of the bosses work off that idea that Dark Matter sort of made popular.

They're very fun games that mangle themselves with collectathon BS right at the end. I shouldn't have to search levels for inane objects just to get to the final boss. I feel that forcing the endgame to be entirely about exploration was a mistake.

Hmm? I don't quite feel this way...every collectible in Dream Land 3 can be gotten on the first go-through if you know where to look (admittedly I needed a guide for a few of them), and are done through mostly naturally progressing through the level. And each level just has one task, so it's like two replays at most. It just cuts off one boss, and gives the game some difficulty, I don't see an issue.

Haven't played 64 in forever (my Wii looks ugly on all my TVs now, so I probably won't pick it up till it---if?---it's released on the Wii U VC), so maybe you're talking about that one?

Returns and Triple Deluxe, yeah, I definitely got a bit worn out with the collectibles.
 
Hmm...I downloaded Kirby 64 tonight, first time playing it in years, and I gotta say...I'm really not feeling it. I enjoyed replaying Dream Land 3, but 64 feels weird. I'm only on the first World though, so maybe it gets better, but the controls seem really clunky. Like Kirby's dash is so fucking slow.

I never knew there was a Dreamland 3 until recently. When did the game come out?

Yeah, really late in the SNES lifespan, so it was sort of overlooked.
 
Hmm? I don't quite feel this way...every collectible in Dream Land 3 can be gotten on the first go-through if you know where to look (admittedly I needed a guide for a few of them), and are done through mostly naturally progressing through the level. And each level just has one task, so it's like two replays at most. It just cuts off one boss, and gives the game some difficulty, I don't see an issue.

Haven't played 64 in forever (my Wii looks ugly on all my TVs now, so I probably won't pick it up till it---if?---it's released on the Wii U VC), so maybe you're talking about that one?

A lot of them require holding on to a specific partner or power through most of the level, or completing a minigame that you don't know how to play at first (like that one where you have to listen to the sounds falling objects make - I didn't realize what was happening until it was over). Or in some levels you had to stomp on flowers, while in another you had to NOT stomp on them - without any indication which was which until you got near the end. It's just like having to do another sweep through levels to collect all of the Jiggies in Banjo. These things should be for extras only, not to just complete the game. Even if you have plenty of time or don't mind the repetition, I don't think that makes it alright. Of course this is all subjective, but I never cared for that way of designing a game. It really didn't work for me.

And yes, 64 does it too. If anything, some of those are even less intuitive than Dream Land 3.
 
Hmm... thinking of these three as a series is a bit funny, because I have VERY different opinions of them! Kirby 2 has always been my favorite Kirby game ever. I loved the Kirby series as a kid, had a Game Boy (but not a NES or SNES), and Kirby 2 was so amazing! And it holds up quite well, too; it's still a very good platformer, just as great as Kirby's Adventure or better. The first Kirby for GB is pretty good as well.

But Kirby 64 and Kirby 3? They just aren't anywhere near as fun. The slow pace is frustrating, and the games a lot less fun to play. I don't think that Kirby 2 plays much like 3 or 64, they aren't much alike at all apart from the presence of the helpers, who of course are also in Kirby 3. 3 is a slower-paced game, for sure. I didn't have it until the '00s, but while I was hoping to like it... eh, it's not great. Not bad, but it's no Kirby 2! 64 I did get shortly after its release, but it was only good, not great. And then 64 is just as slow, sadly. The power combination feature was kind of interesting, but Kirby 64 disappointed me; I had high hopes for the game, but ended up deciding that it wasn't even the best 2.5d platformer on the N64, Goemon's Great Aadventure was. (Hundred Yard Hop was somewhat stupidly addictive in multiplayer, though... played that a lot more than you'd think! :))

Also, I never got all the shards in Kirby 64 because... ugh, those gates which require you to get a power in one level, then get through that level and through the other level without getting hit so you keep the power and can open the door... argh! The game is mostly way too easy, but that stuff is frustrating and not fun at all. Kirby 2 has only a handful of things to collect, so it's not bad there, but in a game like Kirby 64 with such a huge amount of stuff to get, it's annoying.


As for my favorite Kirby games... my favorites would be Dream Land 2, Pinball Land, Return to Dream Land, Dream Course, and Kirby's Adventure. I'm not sure what the order would be, though, after the first one; KDL2 is my favorite for sure.

(As for Super Star, it's good, but it's no match for 8-bit Kirby, which is the best of the franchise platforming-wise!)
 
I never knew that they had a different director, but I remember noticing the slow place, low difficulty, and limited flight of all the Kirby games where he collected stars for 1-ups. I somewhat enjoyed Dreamland 2, although not nearly as much as adventure, and I couldn't bring myself to finish a recent replay, but I didn't care for Dreamland 3 or Kirby 64 at all, no matter how much I wanted to like them.

Canvas Curse was the first game I noticed that had those stars but was fast paced and fun. I'm quite glad that Kirby hasn't returned to that style. That said, 3 did have stunning art and 64's mix idea was fun.
 
Oh man, that fucking tease during the Direct...

In the Rainbow Curse trailer, that paint fairy (who could've been Adeleine) temporarily turns Kirby into Rick, right before he morphs into a tank. :(
 
Oh man, that fucking tease during the Direct...

In the Rainbow Curse trailer, that paint fairy (who could've been Adeleine) temporarily turns Kirby into Rick, right before he morphs into a tank. :(

I noticed that! I'm hoping for somehow more than just easter eggs like that of the Animal Buddies in this game. I realize it's a fairly unlikely hope though.
 
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