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[VFX_Veteran]

I'm sure you know what PBR means but Infamous SS use it as well.

Doesn't look like it.

Example image:

There are 6 different materials in that screenshot all of them having different characteristics in roughness, and specular response. ALL of them respond to the sun in the exact same way (except the lamps). As if all of them have the same diffuse material on it. There is also no specular maps to break up the roughness on any of the materials. If it was PBR, you'd see varying materials responding differently to the light (this is the conventional gamers term, film has a different meaning) so that you KNOW they are different materials.

 

[Amir0x]

I completely disagree on the skin shading. Both are very impressive to me and I believe it's purely artistic direction. Sometimes we implement skin on characters that are more translucent than other times. Drake has more of a waxy feel to his skin than Arno who has more of a translucent hue to it. IMO it's purely artistic driven and doesn't lend to any "gap" in visuals as you say.

It's 'waxy' because he's also wet. You're arguing more against the way they're applying the soaked look here imo, which would be separate. But it's easy to separate the wetness from what they're actually doing with the SSS and the lighting/skin. It's insane. It's literally nearly CG quality. It's why I think none of the U4 shit is real.

You are wrong there. It is way harder to simulate long hair than stubble on a face. That's not even close. Our long hair render times are a pain in the ass and need so much tweaking to get rid of noise, occlusion artifacts, and to have a really good translucent brdf lobe that's physically plausible. Stubble on a face is very very easy to simulate and doesn't contain anywhere near the amount of vertices per hair that long hair would have.

-M

It's not that simple though as "long hair" vs. "short hair." It's the rendering techniques itself used to actually accurately display how the hair looks. I'm not really super enmeshed in the technical details of what you went through to make the hair and I'm sure it really was quite complex. As I said, AC Unity has some nice hair at times, very impressive.

But we're talking about the difference between psycho individualized detail down to the smallest level to something that looks great, but doesn't have necessarily that exacting attention to detail when analyzed up close as we get a chance to do in the Uncharted face water shot.

But as I said, you're jumping on this but I actually know AC Unity is a real game so I expect real game limitations. I don't think that Nathan Drake video is representative of a real game.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

It's 'waxy' because he's also wet.

Wet is not equal to wax. Those are different settings for a material, hence why I say they couldn't quite achieve a "wet" look to the skin.

You're arguing more against the way they're applying the soaked look here imo, which would be separate.

Fair enough.

It's not that simple though as "long hair" vs. "short hair." It's the rendering techniques itself used to actually accurately display how the hair looks.

But it is that simple actually. When we get a project that the director says it's going to entail long fur or hair, everyone cringes. LOL!

Technically, it is much harder to implement long hair than short hair. Period. There is really no debating that. Just because you are seeing the small short hairs doesn't mean that the triangles are any larger with the long hair? In fact, there is more calls to the light loop to shade each vertex in long hair than short hair (which may have at most 3-4 verts compared to 12-18 verts for long hair). You also don't have to worry about self shadowing on short hair. Long hair you do.. occlusion is also a concern.. on stubble, not so much. I could go on and on.. but I think you get the picture.

 

[MarkV]

Doesn't look like it.

Example image:

There are 6 different materials in that screenshot all of them having different characteristics in roughness, and specular response. ALL of them respond to the sun in the exact same way (except the lamps). As if all of them have the same diffuse material on it. There is also no specular maps to break up the roughness on any of the materials. If it was PBR, you'd see varying materials responding differently to the light (this is the conventional gamers term, film has a different meaning) so that you KNOW they are different materials.

I blame the lighting in this shot, it looks like there is almost no specular contribution at all. Another strange thing is that you would think that this scene is illuminated by direct light but you can see the shadow. Long story short this is a bad looking shot but Infamous can also look quite good sometimes.

 

[fardeenah]

So I heard you were talking about how good this game looks on the PC....all setting on these pictures are on ultra (playing on a 970 GTX)....

RLD! hehe

 

[VFX_Veteran]

There are no cutscenes in The Order...

I consider a cutscene to be animation which the user isn't in control but yet the game engine is free to render a set path of scripted instructions as fast it can.

In that regard, the Order has several cutscenes..

-M

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I blame the lighting in this shot, it looks like there is almost no specular contribution at all.

That's because there isn't any. If the game had specular materials on those buildings, you'd see it any angle where the light reflects off of it and into the camera. I can see plenty of specular on the wet roads. But not on these buildings.

Another strange thing is that you would think that this scene is illuminated by direct light but you can see the shadow.

I'm not sure I follow you. Direct light will cast a shadow.

 

[Amir0x]

Wet is not equal to wax. Those are different settings for a material, hence why I say they couldn't quite achieve a "wet" look to the skin.



Fair enough.



But it is that simple actually. When we get a project that the director says it's going to entail long fur or hair, everyone cringes. LOL!

Technically, it is much harder to implement long hair than short hair. Period. There is really no debating that. Just because you are seeing the small short hairs doesn't mean that the triangles are any larger with the long hair? In fact, there is more calls to the light loop to shade each vertex in long hair than short hair (which may have at most 3-4 verts compared to 12-18 verts for long hair). You also don't have to worry about self shadowing on short hair. Long hair you do.. occlusion is also a concern.. on stubble, not so much. I could go on and on.. but I think you get the picture.

No you're missing my point about the hair.

Let's put it another way. Let's say you picked a game with a character that had long hair last gen, versus a game this gen that had short hair. The gap is more easily recognizable due to the distance in technical proficiency of each platform. But the illustration then should be clear: it's not just long hair vs. short hair.

So look at the way the hair looked on last-gen systems (360). That's the only image that really matters for this example.

Now, look at the hair in other high profile games this gen with characters that have impressive hair but is short. Like Drake's, for example, if he's really from the game.

The gap here is absolutely insane. The level of detail, the projection of the reality of how that hair should move, the individual stranding that can be followed to a point. It's absolutely nuts-o.

The last gen vs. this gen hair is just made to illustrate a larger gap so you can see that there are other factors other than length of hair in play.

So, even though you have "long hair", and Drake has "short hair" it doesn't necessarily mean that the effect you're achieving is significantly better in terms of detail or technical difficulty. It absolutely can be, of course. And it might be if we actually broke it down. But for my money, having viewed that Nathan Drake face up close and Unity's characters up close, it's not really close. It's really an astonishing accomplishment if that Drake model and U4 looks like this in-game. And if it hit 60fps like ND said they were aiming for (LOL), it'd be basically the most impressive game of all time period but especially relative to the absolute technical disaster Unity was upon release in comparison.

 

[Crossing Eden]

There are no cutscenes in The Order...

Curious to take a look at AC:Unity. Maybe when it's not so broke I'll pick it up. Though if it goes on sale on Black Friday I'll grab it, broken and all. BUY IT FOR THE GFX.

As far as the UC4 vs Unity discussion goes... not even close. Uncharted 4 by a mile, but there's no way that game looks like that during gameplay come release time.

The Order 1886 has an awful lot of cutscenes from what we've seen. That's one of the main criticisms is too many cutscenes so far.

 

[MarkV]

I'm not sure I follow you. Direct light will cast a shadow.

I mean that the image looks flat and with basically no specular highlight so one could think that is only lit by some sort of (not well done) ambient light but the presence of shadows means that there is actually a direct light illuminating the scene.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Wet is not equal to wax. Those are different settings for a material, hence why I say they couldn't quite achieve a "wet" look to the skin.

But his skin does look wet , no one i show that trailer to said he skin look waxy ,shiny or like plastic etc etc.
Now if it technically right or not is another debate but i feel it got job done.

 

[pottuvoi]

There are 6 different materials in that screenshot all of them having different characteristics in roughness, and specular response. ALL of them respond to the sun in the exact same way (except the lamps). As if all of them have the same diffuse material on it. There is also no specular maps to break up the roughness on any of the materials. If it was PBR, you'd see varying materials responding differently to the light (this is the conventional gamers term, film has a different meaning) so that you KNOW they are different materials.

The image is facing away from sun, so the differences in specular roughness is quite hard to see.
It's actually very bad image to see any kind of differences.

And yes, they use PBL pipeline.
https://www.copy.com/s/9OmMJE9ngVPj/GDC14_infamous_second_son_engine_postmortem.pdf

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

wasn't ISS's graphics downgraded?

Nope, those are just the most unflattering compressed imageshack screenshots.

I:SS photmode thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=803994

 

[OsirisBlack]

The Order looks phenomenal no doubt. I just don't like that most of the footage has been cutscenes inter-mixed with actual gameplay. I would go on record to say that Order will be the first game to rival AC:U. I can't wait to play it and compare side-by-side with my PC running AC:U.

Well there is no difference in gameplay or cutscene quality so that's a non issue. This appears to be a scene where you are walking through a church/cathedral of some sort.
The PS experience should give us a lot more info as well as some good gifs.

 

[vivekTO]

King of Slums.



I'm a good bit of the way into the city. I frankly find the game boring and repetitive even though I will force my way through it at some point. I didn't like Infamous 2 and only bought this game because of so many people talking about it's graphical prowess.

These are MY screenshots btw:



Very simple textured buildings showing no shadow or AO. The game looks even worse when playing it than the screenshots. You can notice all kinds of aliasing and fake lighting effects. I absolutely love the particles though. They did an incredible job with the motion and light of them. But if you take away the colored lights in the particles and the physical sims of the smoke and FX, you are left with a last-gen capable game.

Simple basic reflection map for cars. No PBR at all in this game.

This image looks good though.

It's fine to appreciate a games lighting/graphic , but at the same time shitting on another will not do any good.

Please can someone link him to screenshot thread for console.

Graphic/lighting aside SS has far greater image quality(aliasing,shadowing) than any game(unity included). Also check driveclub photomode thread.

 

[twobear]

ACU cutscenes are actually the first real-time graphics I've seen that make UC4 seem less impressive, in the sense that it's gone from the realm of 'is that even real-time' to 'oh okay, seems feasible actually'. In a couple of places I'd say it actually looks more realistic. But the cutscenes are sometimes a bit of a mixed bag.

 

[ShutterMunster]

The Order 1886 has an awful lot of cutscenes from what we've seen. That's one of the main criticisms is too many cutscenes so far.

They are not FMV though so there's no difference in fidelity between what's user controlled and what isn't.

 

[luca_29_bg]

That's because AC:U is ahead of it's time and can't be challenged with anything currently out. The hate is coming from the fact that the game is a buggy mess and basically too much for the next-gen consoles to handle at any reasonable consistent framerate.

Looking at the DF review on Dragon Age, we are already seeing that most devs are hitting a wall in compromising framerate for increased visual fidelity. ND will hit that wall as well.

-M

never compare multi platform games with exclusive tripe AAA. It's totally wrong. For cross gen it's worse than ever...

 

[The Artisan]

Nope, those are just the most unflattering compressed imageshack screenshots.

I:SS photmode thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=803994

I dunno man, something doesn't seem right SP said it was just changing the lighting about certain scenes but something tells me there's more to it than that.

 

[vivekTO]

I dunno man, something doesn't seem right SP said it was just changing the lighting about certain scenes but something tells me there's more to it than that.

Should i now post the unchared 3 "cutscene" downgrade?

 

[Crossing Eden]

They are not FMV though so there's no difference in fidelity between what's user controlled and what isn't.

Realtime cutscenes do not mean that there will always be no difference in fidelity between gameplay and cutscene. For example, this is from a realtime cutscene.

Besides the DoF, there are most likely added lights to make her look like that in this shot compared to during the gameplay. Hair simulation is also turned up during cutscenes.

 

[VisceralBowl]

They are not FMV though so there's no difference in fidelity between what's user controlled and what isn't.

That isn't always true. Some games opt to use higher detail assets during non-gameplay sequences.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

RLD! hehe

Naughty boy !

 

[vivekTO]

Realtime cutscenes do not mean that there will always be no difference in fidelity between gameplay and cutscene. For example, this is from a realtime cutscene.

Besides the DoF, there are most likely added lights to make her look like that in this shot compared to during the gameplay. Hair simulation is also turned up during cutscenes.

This is true just like TLOU, cutscenes use higher detail characters/assets.

But , In ORDER case , There is no transition between cutscene to gameplay(evident from short gameplay videos, Also almost all reviewers agreed on the smoothness in transition between cutscene to gameplay).

Again totally agree with your points, but it's not the case for ORDER.

 

[The Artisan]

Should i now post the unchared 3 "cutscene" downgrade?

if you wish. but the character models in the Uc cutscenes are always better looking than in game. so it's not like the the actual in game graphics were downgraded for Uc3.

 

[luca_29_bg]

Realtime cutscenes do not mean that there will always be no difference in fidelity between gameplay and cutscene. For example, this is from a realtime cutscene.

Besides the DoF, there are most likely added lights to make her look like that in this shot compared to during the gameplay. Hair simulation is also turned up during cutscenes.

rad have already stated that there is not difference at all between cut scenes and gameplay, for a seamless experience. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. The order 1886 is not assassin creed parit...ops unity, sorry!

 

[luca_29_bg]

That isn't always true. Some games opt to use higher detail assets during non-gameplay sequences.

the order not, ready at dawn already have already stated this multiple times!

 

[VFX_Veteran]

The image is facing away from sun, so the differences in specular roughness is quite hard to see.
It's actually very bad image to see any kind of differences.

And yes, they use PBL pipeline.
https://www.copy.com/s/9OmMJE9ngVPj/GDC14_infamous_second_son_engine_postmortem.pdf

Interesting read.

They only give a physically plausible specular model. I wonder what they used for diffuse.

I'm surprised they have GI implemented in the game with dynamic lookup. It doesn't look as clean as AC:U.

Texture sizes are also kept to a minimum on buildings as they hardly have much detail at all.

 

[luca_29_bg]

This is true just like TLOU, cutscenes use higher detail characters/assets.

But , In ORDER case , There is no transition between cutscene to gameplay(evident from short gameplay videos, Also almost all reviewers agreed on the smoothness in transition between cutscene to gameplay).

Again totally agree with your points, but it's not the case for ORDER.

this thing about the order seamless transition should be known even on kripton now...

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

I always have to laugh when people post screenshots of characters when discussing graphics. Really!? Who cares how characters look in the cutscenes.

Its about ingame, its about the environments. The stuff i see all the time in front of me. Are the textures good, hows the lighting, is everything coming together nicely... but characters in cutscenes? Please.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Nope, those are just the most unflattering compressed imageshack screenshots.

The game isn't nearly as impressive as the screenshots when you are sitting in front of your tv. As I said, the particle FX are the biggest strength to this game. Not it's overall look/animation.

 

[The Artisan]

Realtime cutscenes do not mean that there will always be no difference in fidelity between gameplay and cutscene. For example, this is from a realtime cutscene.

Besides the DoF, there are most likely added lights to make her look like that in this shot compared to during the gameplay. Hair simulation is also turned up during cutscenes.

wat game is that from?

 

[Putty]

The game isn't nearly as impressive as the screenshots when you are sitting in front of your tv. As I said, the particle FX are the biggest strength to this game. Not it's overall look/animation.

Having seen Unity now, I'm sorry but to my eyes, I find ISS a much more of a technical showcase. My tuppence worth.

 

[Putty]

The game isn't nearly as impressive as the screenshots when you are sitting in front of your tv. As I said, the particle FX are the biggest strength to this game. Not it's overall look/animation.

Best image quality this generation so far.

 

[FeiRR]

The game isn't nearly as impressive as the screenshots when you are sitting in front of your tv. As I said, the particle FX are the biggest strength to this game. Not it's overall look/animation.

I've seen both ISS and ACU (the second one also on PC) and ACU is nowhere the quality of image ISS offers. Your posts are just another delusion of PC evangelism.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is true just like TLOU, cutscenes use higher detail characters/assets.

But , In ORDER case , There is no transition between cutscene to gameplay(evident from short gameplay videos, Also almost all reviewers agreed on the smoothness in transition between cutscene to gameplay).

Again totally agree with your points, but it's not the case for ORDER.

Just wanted to point out that the cutscenes in The Last of Us are pre-rendered. However the cutscene ending and gameplay beginning is the transition. There's just no transition in asset quality so far from what we've seen, still remains to be seen if the entire game is that way though.

rad have already stated that there is not difference at all between cut scenes and gameplay, for a seamless experience. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. The order 1886 is not assassin creed parit...ops unity, sorry!

Remains to be seen man.

wat game is that from?

AC:Unity.

 

[jett]

RLD! hehe

LOL some people are just shameless.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I always have to laugh when people post screenshots of characters when discussing graphics. Really!? Who cares how characters look in the cutscenes.

Its about ingame, its about the environments. The stuff i see all the time in front of me. Are the textures good, hows the lighting, is everything coming together nicely... but characters in cutscenes? Please.

Agreed. Many people get caught up on the cutscenes instead of how the game looks when you are moving around. This is why AC:U is getting such praise for it's graphics because that's what you see when you control the character.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Best image quality this generation so far.

I agree with the notion that the particle effects are infamous SS's biggest strength, but it's character animation is no where near AC Unity's. The facial animation and hair simulation in Unity are also much better and completely avoid the uncanny valley effect at all times. Which makes sense considering that infamous was originally supposed to be a 2013 launch title.

 

[Putty]

I agree with the notion that the particle effects are infamous SS's biggest strength, but it's character animation is no where near AC Unity's. The facial animation and hair simulation in Unity are also much better and completely avoid the uncanny valley effect at all times. Which makes sense considering that infamous was originally supposed to be a 2013 launch title.

Opinions etc etc.

 

[The Artisan]

AC:Unity.

must be the PC version because those are damn good graphics (if they are in-game)

 

[vpance]

So I heard you were talking about how good this game looks on the PC....all setting on these pictures are on ultra (playing on a 970 GTX)....

Dat scale doe.

Buildings look like some elementary school cardboard arts project.

 

[twobear]

rad have already stated that there is not difference at all between cut scenes and gameplay, for a seamless experience. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. The order 1886 is not assassin creed parit...ops unity, sorry!

Didn't they also insist there was no screen tearing despite there being very obvious screen tearing in various demos?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Opinions etc etc.

Yea, there's opinions, but as an animator I could never agree that Delsin's parkour animations look anywhere near as good as the ones AC Unity. Especially considering the sheer amount of variations in each action. There are seemingly at least three-five variations on each action aside from simple ones like running cycles. And all those come together with some of the best animation transitions in game history.
https://gfycat.com/VariableQualifiedAruanas
http://gfycat.com/FlakySoftAmericanwirehair#

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Yea, there's opinions, but as an animator I could never agree that Delsin's parkour animations look anywhere near as good as the ones AC Unity. Especially considering the sheer amount of variations in each action. There are seemingly at least three-five variations on each action aside from simple ones like running cycles. And all those come together with some of the best animation transitions in game history.
https://gfycat.com/VariableQualifiedAruanas
http://gfycat.com/FlakySoftAmericanwirehair#

Yep. And we haven't even talked about the superior lighting/shading/texture work in AC:U (at least on PC) compared to ISS. There really is no comparison, but I digress for that argument.

 

[Shredderi]

AC:U on pc is the best at the moment but ac:u on ps4? I:SS looks better imo.

 

[Crossing Eden]

must be the PC version because those are damn good graphics (if they are in-game)

It's in-game.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Realtime cutscenes do not mean that there will always be no difference in fidelity between gameplay and cutscene. For example, this is from a realtime cutscene.

Besides the DoF, there are most likely added lights to make her look like that in this shot compared to during the gameplay. Hair simulation is also turned up during cutscenes.

That isn't always true. Some games opt to use higher detail assets during non-gameplay sequences.

That's not what's happening in The Order, it is a seamless transition. If assets were changed it would be jarring and noticeable. Not the case, just look at the videos.

 

[luca_29_bg]

Remains to be seen man.

so you don't believe them ?

 

[mattman5000]

I've seen both ISS and ACU (the second one also on PC) and ACU is nowhere the quality of image ISS offers.

Really? You must be trolling....

(there are seven people in this screen shot, including the player + incredibly simple geometry)

VS