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HTC Vive and SteamVR hands-on impressions

Let's see what Oculus have to say about Rift CV1. Both solutions presented so far are perfectly capable of delivering the 'seated experience', but both companies may want to push beyond that. Whether they push standing or sitting, there is no danger of VR being a 'quick fad'.
Why not? Can we name any other accessory to a gaming console that has become commonplace and stuck around for long enough? Not saying VR cannot do it (false past equivocation) but I am saying that it doesn't have history on its side.
 
If you walk in one direction to the boundary of your room and the game still appears like you can walk further in that direction, you're suggesting that you could stop, make the game world rotate 180 degrees with the left stick, so that you can also turn 180 degrees at the same time, so that you can then walk back across your room while it looks like you're walking in the same direction in the game... I think it would be pretty disorientating to have a very convincing environment that you're physically walking around in that can rotate after every few steps. It's like manual redirected walking - and redirected walking only really works if you can't notice it happening.

Actually, I was really only talking about "left stick" movement in my post, as in WASD movement, for the "room movement". Although, perhaps it would be better to imagine the room being a cylinder instead of a cube. Rotation would be done by the player/headset, "local" or "small" movements like jumping or walking a few steps to the side, dodging things etc. would again be done by the player's body/headset/motion controllers while the actual world WASD movement would be done with the left stick.

It's really just the same as driving a mech in a cockpit, it's just that the cockpit is more like the bridge of the Enterprise so you can move around in it a bit. I guess it's mostly the same as just standing in place/sitting down, but with a bit more freedom of local movement for examining things, fine interaction, dodging rockets etc.

It's definitely not a replacement for any kind of redirected walking, just a temporary adaptation to standard control schemes.

EDIT:
I've never really tried any of the VR headsets, so maybe what I'm describing is the same/very similar to what is standard right now anyway.
 
Why not? Can we name any other accessory to a gaming console that has become commonplace and stuck around for long enough? Not saying VR cannot do it (false past equivocation) but I am saying that it doesn't have history on its side.

Gaming console? In the Vive thread?

Anyway, you said it would be a fad because the space requirements. He said there are no space requirements for seated VR, which Vive and the rest of them can still do.

I don't know what you're talking about now. Something else entirely.
 
Great interview. It's a pity we can't see what the game looked like.

The movement issues raised in the interview are quite interesting. I'm looking forwarding to seeing how the solutions the developers use to solve these problems.

There is a short video on their website where you can see stuff the interviewer was talking about.
 
VR amateur here. Can anyone explain to me how they handle an experience where the in game area you can explore is larger than the real life area you are in? Do they accelerate your movement so that every 1 real life step is 5 in-game steps? Do you use the analog stick to move when you run out of space to walk forward?

Having a hard time imagining solutions besides the ones above - that or one of those crazy VR treadmill things.

Edit: I've read that they highlight in blue when you reach the boundary of your real life space, but then what? How do you keep going forward if you wanted to?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154660186&postcount=9
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Hype is there for all the improvements, no doubt about it, Morpheus got also a lot of praise, but what I'm talking about is the type of response this got. Most of the comments were about how it felt, how the immersion was, how different it is (while being quite the same technically, besides the tracking method), not on how was the quality of the screen, how big the pixels are, the comfort of wearing the helmet etc.

A lot of that was from the demos being based around standing/walking. It made them very powerful demos. realistically most of us will still be sitting to play, and most games will not require you to walk around. That locomotion problem still isn't fully solved, and the smart thing about the Vive demos is that it shows off great 1:1 tracking *and* avoids movement using buttons, so the demos stay very smooth and slick.

That isn't meant to downplay the achievement - the tracking is still great, and it will still be great for you sitting down too. Just that this week there is definitely some demo effect going on, and people sparking their imaginations off that.
 

Oh wow, thanks. The bit about "locomote the volume" (at the 11:00 and 13:15 mark) sounds sounds pretty much like what I tried to describe a few posts back. They also mention Valve's approach to projecting/teleporting that volume which sounds a lot like old point & click adventures like Myst, jumping from location to location.

Also, didn't know those front cameras can be used for passthrough.
 
Yeah, this is the first time passthrough has been mentioned. Might not be true, as for ex he wrongly described the sensors as cameras.
 

Sendou

Member
Maybe I missed something but what else reason would there to be have cameras on the front of the headset other than allow passthrough?
 

Man

Member
Maybe I missed something but what else reason would there to be have cameras on the front of the headset other than allow passthrough?
It's not needed but there's some nice software opportunities in Valves case. When you approach obstacles or walls then these will fade into your view (wireframe or point-cloud-like through Lighthouse calculations). With video-pass-through you could also simultaneously fade in the real video image of this (at least if it's in front).
 

Jzero

Member
Yeah, this is the first time passthrough has been mentioned. Might not be true, as for ex he wrongly described the sensors as cameras.

I mean the black circles look like cameras.

ibmk1eUPQ74SHs.PNG
 
Why not? Can we name any other accessory to a gaming console that has become commonplace and stuck around for long enough? Not saying VR cannot do it (false past equivocation) but I am saying that it doesn't have history on its side.
It's not an accessory. VR is a new medium. It happens to work as an accessory, and can be implemented into familiar game genres, but this is not how Valve or Oculus are demonstrating it, nor are they recommending that developers should treat it as one.

Actually, I was really only talking about "left stick" movement in my post, as in WASD movement, for the "room movement". Although, perhaps it would be better to imagine the room being a cylinder instead of a cube. Rotation would be done by the player/headset, "local" or "small" movements like jumping or walking a few steps to the side, dodging things etc. would again be done by the player's body/headset/motion controllers while the actual world WASD movement would be done with the left stick.

It's really just the same as driving a mech in a cockpit, it's just that the cockpit is more like the bridge of the Enterprise so you can move around in it a bit. I guess it's mostly the same as just standing in place/sitting down, but with a bit more freedom of local movement for examining things, fine interaction, dodging rockets etc.

It's definitely not a replacement for any kind of redirected walking, just a temporary adaptation to standard control schemes.

EDIT:
I've never really tried any of the VR headsets, so maybe what I'm describing is the same/very similar to what is standard right now anyway.
Ah ok. In that case you're describing how you can already play something like Skyrim in VR, and it's awful, imo. Some people with a good sense of balance and strong stomachs can do it, but I don't think it's something that would be widely accepted. I'm more comfortable sitting down and just using a bit of head rotation to look around and doing everything else the traditional gamepad way, but even that is unpleasant to some extent. Combining real movement like dodging and jumping and then doing everything else with a controller is going to make the disconnection with your virtual body seem worse rather than better. You mention mechs - this is the only way it starts to feel comfortable, as you have a stationary cockpit in front of you and it makes sense. Being able to walk about a bit in the mech only makes sense if the VR experience represents walking about in a mech. :)
 

Man

Member
1/10th degree accuracy. That means +/- 5millimeter precision pointer aiming at 3meters distance.
 

Alx

Member
Yeah, this is the first time passthrough has been mentioned. Might not be true, as for ex he wrongly described the sensors as cameras.

Well the sensors are cameras indeed, only they only watch the projected IR points of the lighthouse.
 

reptilexcq2

Neo Member
It's interesting that most people who've tried it don't even talk about the display quality, or tracking accuracy, or all that other stuff geeks like me would love to know.

They mostly just describe the experience of being there. Presence achieved.

If they upgrade the resolution, presence will be even better.
 

reptilexcq2

Neo Member
VR amateur here. Can anyone explain to me how they handle an experience where the in game area you can explore is larger than the real life area you are in? Do they accelerate your movement so that every 1 real life step is 5 in-game steps? Do you use the analog stick to move when you run out of space to walk forward?

Having a hard time imagining solutions besides the ones above - that or one of those crazy VR treadmill things.

Edit: I've read that they highlight in blue when you reach the boundary of your real life space, but then what? How do you keep going forward if you wanted to?

You will use the traditional thumbstick to walk and explore without physically walking and then press a button to choose to physically walk within another 15'x15' space.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
A lot of that was from the demos being based around standing/walking. It made them very powerful demos. realistically most of us will still be sitting to play, and most games will not require you to walk around. That locomotion problem still isn't fully solved, and the smart thing about the Vive demos is that it shows off great 1:1 tracking *and* avoids movement using buttons, so the demos stay very smooth and slick.

That isn't meant to downplay the achievement - the tracking is still great, and it will still be great for you sitting down too. Just that this week there is definitely some demo effect going on, and people sparking their imaginations off that.

People are not afraid of standing up or moving around if it's worthy. Wii Sports proved that quite a lot. Plus, as you also said, the tracking is better even if you're seated. In the end is the experience that sells equipment.

And even for Rift and Morpheus the demos are mostly done either standing or in some strange position like the Luge one.

In the end, unless you're driving or moving around the game world together with your couch or chair, sitting in the couch could be immersion breaking for VR.
 
Well even the Valve engineer calls them cameras in his explanation :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leg2gS6ShZw&t=902

The way I understand it they're not only detecting the light points, but also their position, so that's basically an IR camera that filters out all wavelengths but that of the lighthouse.

That's not a Valve dev, but Norm from tested (if that timestamp was intentional on your part). Birdwell specifically says they're not cameras when Norm compares them to self-driving cars.
 

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
Obviously I'm kidding about putting my Vita in a box but since I've never demoed VR, no, I'm not. I don't get what's special or different yet.

Based on my experiences trying the Oculus Rift, the weirdest part of VR is taking off the headset. Initially when you put it on, you're like "cool", the switch isn't instant, but after a few minutes the physical world you were in before just completely fades away, and you slowly start to accept that the new digital world around you is real. When you take it off, it's jarring because it really feels like you are instantly teleported back. It's a bizarre feeling, and I can guarantee that there is no other feeling like that in the world.

VR is unique because it plays enough tricks into fooling your brain about where you really are. Even if the graphics are simple and cartoonish you'll just say "okay, I'm in a cartoon now". You still kinda realize that you're somewhere in your living room in reality, but it's just a feeling you get in the back of your head. Life is gonna get weird in a few years.
 
I'm not surprised at all. VR isn't quite as genre-limited as many people think.
This is another thing i don't get. Why people think it works only for first person games?

Just the stereoscopic 3D and the fact that you are still surrounded by the games reality is enough to enhance inmersion. To play a third person game with VR would be like taking the role of a director in a film.

For even more abstract stuff like a puzzler (say Tetrisphere) the real 3D effect would be great on itself.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
This is another thing i don't get. Why people think it works only for first person games?

Just the stereoscopic 3D and the fact that you are still surrounded by the games reality is enough to enhance inmersion. To play a third person game with VR would be like taking the role of a director in a film.

For even more abstract stuff like a puzzler (say Tetrisphere) the real 3D effect would be great on itself.
I can see where people would just assume 'first person'. That is what first comes to mind when people think about virtual reality. But that's one of the problems - a lot of people don't really know much about the tech or how it works. They don't spend time to think about it or look into it, they just make a quick, snap judgement based on simplistic preconceptions. I mean, it wasn't immediately obvious to me that VR would be great for 3rd person stuff, either. But I also didn't just blindly assume what it could or couldn't do.

And honestly, we're all still probably not seeing the big picture or the full extent of VR's potential. We'll probably be doing things in 20 years that we simply wouldn't have ever thought of now.
 
The way I understand it they're not only detecting the light points, but also their position, so that's basically an IR camera that filters out all wavelengths but that of the lighthouse.
It seems to be really pushing the boundaries of the definition of a camera. As I understand it, there are a few types of photocell, and ones that are typically used to detect IR light are resistors. A camera involves images. An IR camera involves images (weird looking images, but images all the same). The Vive's photocells are there to detect a change in resistance to calculate headset position via timing. There is no image involved.

https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey/status/574328634200084481
 
I can see where people would just assume 'first person'. That is what first comes ...
And honestly, we're all still probably not seeing the big picture or the full extent of VR's potential. We'll probably be doing things in 20 years that we simply wouldn't have ever thought of now.
But VR was talked about a lot at the end of the 80's and even was part of the main stream culture of the 90's. There have been practical uses for it decades ago in the military and science fields. By this time, one would expect the general public be more familiar and receptive of this medium.

People dead set against it (at least on the internet) seem to be part of the same group that never gave motion controls a fair chance, even if it showed clear potential. And it seems to be smaller than all the fuzz they make seem to imply, since these groups are very active with their agendas.
 
Ah ok. In that case you're describing how you can already play something like Skyrim in VR, and it's awful, imo. Some people with a good sense of balance and strong stomachs can do it, but I don't think it's something that would be widely accepted. I'm more comfortable sitting down and just using a bit of head rotation to look around and doing everything else the traditional gamepad way, but even that is unpleasant to some extent. Combining real movement like dodging and jumping and then doing everything else with a controller is going to make the disconnection with your virtual body seem worse rather than better. You mention mechs - this is the only way it starts to feel comfortable, as you have a stationary cockpit in front of you and it makes sense. Being able to walk about a bit in the mech only makes sense if the VR experience represents walking about in a mech. :)

I see, 1:1 representation of what's actually happening is ideal after all, thanks. Man, exciting times we're living in. :)
 

dumbo

Member
The way I understand it they're not only detecting the light points, but also their position, so that's basically an IR camera that filters out all wavelengths but that of the lighthouse.

Whilst that makes perfect sense, that's not actually what this device does.
- the headset is covered in high (timing) precision IR sensors. (the things that look like they are LED emitters)
- the lighthouse sends a rotating pulse.
- the pulse impacts sensor 1 at time t1, sensor 2 at time t2, sensor 3 at time t3.

By combining 'which' sensors were hit, the timing difference between the pulse hitting those sensors and the range to lighthouse... it is possible to precisely calculate the position & orientation of the headset.

The 2 'camera-like' devices probably have something to do with the way the real world 'fades in' when you get close to it.
 

TimFL

Member
No more love between Oculus and Valve? That's sad and negative for VR.

It's not that easy to give everyone a Demo at GDC. I heard that the Vive demo booth was packed and they were not able to give everyone a demo.
 

Alx

Member
Whilst that makes perfect sense, that's not actually what this device does.
- the headset is covered in high (timing) precision IR sensors. (the things that look like they are LED emitters)
- the lighthouse sends a rotating pulse.
- the pulse impacts sensor 1 at time t1, sensor 2 at time t2, sensor 3 at time t3.

By combining 'which' sensors were hit, the timing difference between the pulse hitting those sensors and the range to lighthouse... it is possible to precisely calculate the position & orientation of the headset.
.

Thanks, it seems I was mistaken by a previous explanation of it that was incorrect. That also explains the lack of optics on the sensors, that was bothering me.
So the headset needs to have a direct line of sight to the lighthouse, and the sensors have overlapping fields of view?
 
Why not? Can we name any other accessory to a gaming console that has become commonplace and stuck around for long enough? Not saying VR cannot do it (false past equivocation) but I am saying that it doesn't have history on its side.

What about something like the Sega CD? I would think VR would follow the same path. It won't be an accessory but the console itself in the future.
 

Reallink

Member
People dead set against it (at least on the internet) seem to be part of the same group that never gave motion controls a fair chance, even if it showed clear potential. And it seems to be smaller than all the fuzz they make seem to imply, since these groups are very active with their agendas.

They were successful in killing off motion controls and 3DTV's. With VR being way more threatening and disruptive than both those technologies combined, look for them to be shitting on it from the moon.
 

bj00rn_

Banned

While I've experienced fleeting moments of presence in demos from Oculus and Sony, what Valve showed us at GDC is that they've solved for presence. Moments after the demo started, I lost all track of my real-world surroundings and got lost in the virtual. That feeling of presence sustained for all 18 minutes of that demo.

That part is what excites me about the Vive (and "worries me" about Oculus Rift and Morpheus). At least we haven't seen the Oculus Rift CV1 yet, so there's a good chance they'll match the Vive in this respect. Morpheus appears a relatively good compromise considering it's on a locked platform. But sustained presence and higher resolution display, and solid tracking is what I'm crossing my fingers Oculus will be able to deliver.
 
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