Support NeoGAF

[malingenie]

The title should be self-explanatory. This is the holy grail of the internet argumenters, the times in which arguments have swayed you to change one of your deeply held beliefs and opinions. Examples could be: Free Market Ideals, Atheism/Theism, Gun Rights, etc.

If we didn't have the capacity to change our minds, I believe our species would be doomed. The ability to change your mind under evidence or argumentation should be seen in many cases as a positive. I definitely prefer these people over people who have secluded themselves to their own opinions and will not let themselves be swayed.

I have a few examples in my lifetime but one of them was fueled by a NeoGaf conversation right here in OT some 3 or 4 years back. It was regarding Affirmative Action in the United States. I was completely against it when I came to america, mostly because I wanted to be sure that all of my successes were attributed to my actions rather than my race. I believed in the magic of the bootstraps and that they were one-size-fit-all races.But this simple fact eluded me at the time: I am a white looking, highly bilingual latino from a white looking family. Affirmative Action was never about me. Over the years after that argument, I opened my eyes to the institutionalized racism about us. Back them, I would not have believed it exists. But data is unavoidable. Resumes from black sounding names get less calls than white sounding names. Black people get disproportionately pulled over (Not just in Ferguson, folks). The little things you start seeing about how your white friends respond or talk about race. Islam, Middle Easterners and Arabs, well you know the drill. Those terms are synonyms for some people for fuck's sakes.

So there you have it. An argument started right here changed the way I look at and defend policies and even those around me.

What are yours? Don't feel embarrassed, I will not think less of you about changing your deeply held convictions. I think integrity and flexibility are not incompatible.

PSA: Please be nice. Some people in the internet, even here, seem to think that the more aggressive the discussion the more convincing it will be. Those people can suck my balls.

 

[King Tubby]

I've never had my mind changed about an issue from any single argument. An argument might bring up a good point that plants a seed in my head, but ultimately it takes a long process of doing my own research and using the new information to make up my mind.

I guess what might qualify for me is Christianity/agnosticism. I used to believe very firmly in religion, mostly because of my upbringing. My grandmother was very devout, always went to Church functions (and would sometimes even speak to the parishioners) but she was also extremely kind and not at all a fundie nutjob, while a lot of the people who I met in person or online who were atheists were massive assholes. I think that's what kept me believing really, but as I learned more about the world, about other religions, and about philosophy in high school I felt my faith slowly but surely slip away.

 

[methane47]

Gay marriage.

I used to feel that a separate but equal state like civil union was sufficient, Then i learned there is no such thing as separate but equal.

 

[Blader]

More or less my whole worldview. I was pretty conservative when I was younger, up through and including high school -- I guess that's what happens your parents are die hard Republicans, grow up on a steady diet of Rush/Hannity/Lavin AM radio, and don't have the internet til you're like 14 (and even then it was a lot of "I had no idea people felt this oppositely!" than anything else).

In college I was mostly apathetic/cynical about politics. Since graduating, I've definitely hit harder left and am more angry, which I guess is better than cynical.

So basically everything's changed. Religion, gay marriage, war in Iraq, torture, institutionalized racism, abortion, etc. It's as textbook flip flopper as you can get.

 

[thelatestmodel]

I used to think that governments did need more power to observe and catch potential terrorists. Like, I didn't think body scanners at airports were a big deal if you had "nothing to hide". That was a naive point of view.

After a long while and many discussions with my (now ex) girlfriend, I've changed my views pretty significantly. It's not OK to sacrifice our privacy and liberty in the name of so-called security.

 

[Damaniel]

I used to be a pretty hardcore, 'unfettered free market' libertarian back in my late teens. I even read a little Ayn Rand (ugh). I got better.

The simplistic solutions to the world's problems sound great when you're a young person with no experience in the real adult world. If only everything could be as simple as the proposals espoused by libertarianism! The idea of maximum personal freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on others' freedoms is a good idea, at least in theory. In practice, young, naive people either overestimate the capacity for other people to have empathy, or have no empathy themselves. By the time I hit my early 20s and had a job, I learned very quickly what the logical conclusions of libertarian beliefs were - see the Jeb Bush minimum wage thread for a perfect example.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Gay marriage when I was 19 or 20.

 

[John Kowalski]

i let go of nihilism and rational egoism when i was ~20 for a more pragmatic and positive view on life

 

[Paskil]

Death penalty (against, now)
Gun control (in favor of reasonable restrictions)

 

[bjork]

I've never had my mind changed about an issue from any single argument. An argument might bring up a good point that plants a seed in my head, but ultimately it takes a long process of doing my own research and using the new information to make up my mind.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Anyone can tell anyone anything, but until I see it for myself and go "oh, okay," arguing is just noise to me now. Which is weird, because I used to argue with people here about some real dumb stuff for hours on end every day.

 

[malingenie]

This is pretty much where I'm at. Anyone can tell anyone anything, but until I see it for myself and go "oh, okay," arguing is just noise to me now. Which is weird, because I used to argue with people here about some real dumb stuff for hours on end every day.

Well I doubt there's many instances of a single argument changing someone's carefully crafted defensive psyche. However, if it plants the seed for your further investigation and reckoning, it could be considered a successful argument.

 

[Somnid]

I was more libertarian but eventually realized that most of the factors that determine success in anything are not always things we can control and might have pre-existed before it was ever possible for the individual to change. That and work shouldn't really be the determining factor of one's worth and society should compensate to allow for that. Now I'm pretty hardcore socialist.

I used to be for punitive justice, kill all the rapists and pedophiles kind of mentality. Now I'm very in favor rehabilitative justice because it gets results, punishment simply doesn't. I get the passion but you can't really argue with the facts.

I'm probably in the midst of changing views on mental illness and suicide. It's a complex issue that is mostly based on cultural normalization and difficulty to adapt but often completely rational.

I've softened a bit on drugs. I still don't think people should take them, but pragmatism says they are going to do it anyway so society should get as much out of them as possible.

There's a great quote by Jeff Bezos that says "smart people change their mind a lot." Integrity is not a positive trait, adaptability is. People who criticize flip-flopping are idiots and we should be encouraged to change our minds in light of new facts and realizations.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I used to be pretty Catholic.
I used to be okay with capital punishment.
Both of those have changed.

 

[riotous]

Gays in the military. I never had a 100% sure opinion; I had a liberal / bisexual ex military member convince me it was a bad idea and would distract troops.

Then was convinced that was bullahit.

Capital punishment I've wavered on from time to time. 2 of my friends being murdered brutally made it difficult. But I'm still against it.

 

[legacyzero]

When I was in my early 20's I was indifferent on a lot of things. It was when I got a GAF account that I began to start opening up to the issues of the world.

I think the biggest thing would be the Gay Rights movements. I never cared or payed attention to those things. To me, at the end of the day, I just took the 'meh' approach to it all. GAF allowed me to be able to see the deeper meanings of things, the details, the why's, and the impact of it all.

Now, with every new thread that shows another state opening up to Gay Marriage, a smile hits my face.

On the flip side, though... GAF has played a role in my personal struggle with Religion in the last year. It's been really tough.. I went from being a man that prayed before he went to sleep, doing all the good in my life with the idea that I'll end up in Heaven after I pass... To questioning the logic of it all.. And the only answer I get from most people is, "ya just gotta have faith" and "It's all part of God's plan". I dont even know how to tackle it

Those two things are the biggest ones for me in recent.

 

[Wiktor]

I was an atheist when I was younger, but now I have very strong faith. But I'm not sure that counts. No religion or argument has swayed me. A certainity just suddely sprang on me from nowhere and never left.

I guess better example would be my stance on abortion. When I was younger I was pretty heavy against abortion for economical/convienience reasons (so no due to health issues or after rape, I never had problem with those). But once I grew up that stance changed a lot. I mean, I still don't like the idea. I would never do it myself and if some girl would do it to my child I would hate her for the rest of my life. But at the same time I recognized that what I feel doesn't matter and people have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

 

[MrChom]

At a young age I was Conservative, like most of my family, and grew up atheist, or at the very least agnostic.

My politics began to change at 18. I read. I learned history. I did economics. At university I began to study law and politics. My views changed. I turned from a Conservative to something far more akin to a soft-edged Socialist who believed that it was the state's job to give to every man according to his need, and take according to his ability to pay.

Then came a point in my life where I was more firm in my social and political beliefs and began to think about wider issues. I am still at heart a believer in science, the rational, the plausible, and Occam's Razor....but at the same time this led me to believing in something greater. If not a Christian deity then something similar, some unfathomable consciousness guiding reality, one not at odds with science, but a creator behind why physical laws exist.

I have undergone a massive swing in who I am...and I feel happier for it.

 

[malingenie]

When I was in my early 20's I was indifferent on a lot of things. It was when I got a GAF account that I began to start opening up to the issues of the world.

I think the biggest thing would be the Gay Rights movements. I never cared or payed attention to those things. To me, at the end of the day, I just took the 'meh' approach to it all. GAF allowed me to be able to see the deeper meanings of things, the details, the why's, and the impact of it all.

Now, with every new thread that shows another state opening up to Gay Marriage, a smile hits my face.

On the flip side, though... GAF has played a role in my personal struggle with Religion in the last year. It's been really tough.. I went from being a man that prayed before he went to sleep, doing all the good in my life with the idea that I'll end up in Heaven after I pass... To questioning the logic of it all.. And the only answer I get from most people is, "ya just gotta have faith" and "It's all part of God's plan". I dont even know how to tackle it

Those two things are the biggest ones for me in recent.

Good luck in your journey. I had a similar one, and I had an embarrassing year where I became relatively militaristic in my atheism. Much more settled in mutual respect now, though.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

When I was about 12 years old I believed some conspiracy theories about 9/11 because I saw some internet videos.
I changed my mind after a few months.

 

[malingenie]

At a young age I was Conservative, like most of my family, and grew up atheist, or at the very least agnostic.

My politics began to change at 18. I read. I learned history. I did economics. At university I began to study law and politics. My views changed. I turned from a Conservative to something far more akin to a soft-edged Socialist who believed that it was the state's job to give to every man according to his need, and take according to his ability to pay.

Then came a point in my life where I was more firm in my social and political beliefs and began to think about wider issues. I am still at heart a believer in science, the rational, the plausible, and Occam's Razor....but at the same time this led me to believing in something greater. If not a Christian deity then something similar, some unfathomable consciousness guiding reality, one not at odds with science, but a creator behind why physical laws exist.

I have undergone a massive swing in who I am...and I feel happier for it.

You should talk to the poster above you!

 

[Otakumegane]

4th grade, I decided God didn't exist and persuaded my parents to let me stop going to Church.

But recently I decided that the faith itself that places so much power into an imagined entity is a force to be reckoned with and not some thing I can ignore. I mean after all axioms and faith is required for scientific observation. So I still don't go to church or anything like that but I don't think people are dumb to do it. The sense of community and absolving of sins and stuff is really helpful to some people.

 

[legacyzero]

Good luck in your journey. I had a similar one, and I had an embarrassing year where I became relatively militaristic in my atheism. Much more settled in mutual respect now, though.

I just dont know how to start it... I' ve kept it internal all year until this past weekend. Even my Wife didn't know. I let it all out to her and my best bud. He seems to think that my mind is already made up about it, and I'm just afraid to face any of the consequences that comes with deciding either way. I'm not even sure what those are...

I havnt been this sad in a while...

 

[GaimeGuy]

Death Penalty. I used to be for it (like, before I was a teenager). I am now against it. There are absolutely monsters in this world that deserve no less than to be put down - the problem is that you can't establish a failproof system that will always correctly determine the perpetrator of an act, and always determine the proper punishment. Consequently, you can't guarantee that a court will not err and wrongfully convict someone, or wrongfully execute them when execution would be inappropriate.

 

[injurai]

I used to be against Affirmative Action. Now I'm for it.

 

[Fenderputty]

1. I used to be for the death penalty.
2. I used to be for much stricter border control
3. I used to be homophobic (pretty young)
4. I used to think deficits mattered.
5. I used to think money had intrinsic value


Ohhh yeah ... I used to believe in God.

 

[DonEscobar]

I used to be guilty of 15 felonies, now I'm fighting the case with evidence.

 

[Avari]

No single argument but years ago my opinion on gender/sex changed as a result of many discussions and much thought. I used to think that biological sex/gender was all that counted or made sense. I now accept and believe in a far more fluid concept of gender/sex and gender/sex identity.

 

[Sinfamy]

I stopped believing in God sophomore year of high school. But it was a slow and gradual process.

 

[Clydefrog]

Death Penalty. I used to be for it (like, before I was a teenager). I am now against it. There are absolutely monsters in this world that deserve no less than to be put down - the problem is that you can't establish a failproof system that will always correctly determine the perpetrator of an act, and always determine the proper punishment. Consequently, you can't guarantee that a court will not err and wrongfully convict someone, or wrongfully execute them when execution would be inappropriate.

Ditto.

 

[PhantomHound]

I used to think going to college should be mandatory.

 

[esms]

I've always been flaky with my beliefs, so I can't think of any super significant epiphany moment.

 

[Foffy]

Taking society as objective reality. I was one of those folks who often bought into what we do as a society as a kind of "this is what we do and that's all there is to it" kind of thing. We work for money, which we value above all else. That all laws were just laws, at least in principle. Even religion is part of this; God is because we say it is.

I have realized how absurd and destructive our socially projected ideas really are, for they promote more conflict in the world than anything else. I am more alarmed at how ignorant we are collectively to take all of that nonsense right away, and we beat it into our youth at such a young age. I take very few socially imposed ideas to heart anymore, and try to think more naturalistically about any given issue. I probably stick out as an outsider on many issues, as a result of this.

 

[Chris R]

I was originally for gay couples only getting civil unions, partly because of my upbringing and partly because my state had a constitutional law preventing marriage between gay spouses. I thought it would be easier for them to get a civil union than to fight for the right for marriage but I'm glad the people doing the actual fighting didn't opt for the easy way out.

 

[GameGuru59]

1. Public accommodations- I kind of towed the party line until I saw Rand Paul's infamous interview with Rachel Maddow. Then I saw the contradictions in our supposed property rights and our enforcement of public accommodations. I think people should be able to discriminate as long as they don't run a business crucial to people's daily lives (hotels, gas stations), or they aren't the only game in town (the only restaurant in a small town, for example).

2. Gay Marriage- At first I didn't care about it, now I'm kind of meh on it because I feel as though people are being forced to accept it. I have a real problem with how society is treating people in "flyover country" that have religious objections to gay marriage. Not everybody lives in New York or Los Angeles.

3. Abortion- used to to the party line, now I'm kind of meh on that too. This is another inconsistency. A guy in California has been aressted for killing 3 people because he killed two adults and their unborn child. Yet the mother could conceivably abort that child and get no punishment.

 

[bjork]

Well I doubt there's many instances of a single argument changing someone's carefully crafted defensive psyche. However, if it plants the seed for your further investigation and reckoning, it could be considered a successful argument.

I think this should really come with age and experience, though. 7-10 years ago, I was oblivious to a lot of stuff. Nowadays I look into stuff I encounter without needing to touch base with other people about it.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Out of body experience changed my views on consciousness and spirts/souls from an agnostic stance on the matter to saying yes indeed there is something more than the physical world.

 

[Violence Jack]

In middle and halfway through high school, I had a strong dislike towards gays and lesbians since my Baptist church made me believe they were the embodiment of hell on earth.

I changed my mind around senior year after getting to know a few of them, and they remain some of my closest friends. This (along with other big reasons) also lead to me changing my mind about ever wanting to step foot into a church ever again.

I went from Pro-Life to Pro-Choice in high school when I learned that abortion clinics were being bombed, and those same type of people would stand around our bus stop at school handing out pamphlets.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I can't think of any specific examples where I dramatically changed my mind on an issue, but I've definitely formed opinions that I previous didn't have because of discussions on the Internet. Honestly, it's been great to hear such a wide variety of perspectives. I don't think I would have nearly as much empathy (not that I can't improve more in that respect) for other people as I do today without the Internet.

Knowledge really does make the difference.

 

[ErasureAcer]

2. Gay Marriage- At first I didn't care about it, now I'm kind of meh on it because I feel as though people are being forced to accept it. I have a real problem with how society is treating people in "flyover country" that have religious objections to gay marriage. Not everybody lives in New York or Los Angeles.

How out of touch with reality. There are plenty of gay people in fly-over states. Your argument that religion usurps anything else is beyond troubling. You'd fit in with ISIS just well.

I'm so disturbed by your post I think it has to be a joke, right? RIGHT?

 

[Jasoneyu]

I used to be super anti-religion when I was younger. But meeting people and seeing how it helps in their lives to believe in something beyond them makes me understand the appeal. I still don't subscribe to any religion, but i am not as rah rah - anti-faith as I was before.

 

[CrushDance]

I used to think like a child on many issues. Then I realized that the real world is a lot harsher, I've become a lot more angry, sarcastic and admittedly bitter. A lot of issues I just go against in order to make other people suffer sometimes. It bothers me and I try not to do it, but it's there.

 

[GameGuru59]

How out of touch with reality. There are plenty of gay people in fly-over states. Your argument that religion usurps anything else is beyond troubling. You'd fit in with ISIS just well.

I'm so disturbed by your post I think it has to be a joke, right? RIGHT?

Duh? It's not that I think religion trumps everything else, it's that I don't like the fact people are descending on these backwater towns and expecting them to change at the drop of the hat. I think the tone of the discussion could be improved, basically. Calling people bigots and equivalent to racists isn't helpful, particularly.

Also, as a constitutional matter, I think LGBT rights are sort of being "tacked on" as a matter of convenience, instead of actually doing the harder work of changing the constitution (similar to public accommodation).

 

[DOWN]

Duh? It's not that I think religion trumps everything else, it's that I don't like the fact people are descending on these backwater towns and expecting them to change at the drop of the hat. I think the tone of the discussion could be improved, basically. Calling people bigots and equivalent to racists isn't helpful, particularly.

But bigot is the correct term

 

[Sch1sm]

My parents think mental illnesses were a white man disease, that it's a made up western world concept.

Spoiler

Which, to some extent from a psychological standpoint, it is. If you were born in a place where there isn't a word for a certain thing, can you really experience it?

You can imagine my dismay when I became depressed.

No Internet argument makes me just flip like that, really. I consider the other side at best, adapt my view if I feel the need to accordingly, but. I have a pretty liberal view overall as is.

 

[braves01]

Well, I take climate change and other environmental issues much more seriously than I did a decade ago.

 

[commedieu]

<--- Former black republican..

Sorry guys.. :\ I didn't know..was making too much money to realize it...

 

[TheAbsolution]

Duh? It's not that I think religion trumps everything else, it's that I don't like the fact people are descending on these backwater towns and expecting them to change at the drop of the hat. I think the tone of the discussion could be improved, basically. Calling people bigots and equivalent to racists isn't helpful, particularly.

But they are bigots.

 

[pashmilla]

I made an idiot of myself in a thread a while back which led to a lot of rethinking of my ideas pretty quickly. The long and short of it, Tumblr (where I spend most of my time online) feminists managed to completely turn me against the idea of feminism (I'm a girl, btw). I guess I was kind of lashing out against the movement as a whole in response to their dumbfuckery. It was stupid.

 

[GameGuru59]

But they are bigots.

big·ot
&#712;bi&#609;&#601;t/
noun
noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

Going by Google's definition there's bigots on both sides lol. But for the sake of debate I'll use the less precise colloquial definition. Even if it is true by your standards, you shouldn't use it because it alienates people that you could otherwise have a conversation with (and eventually bring to your side). For similar reasons, people that make minor racist or homophobic comments shouldn't be fired from their jobs. It just angers people more and drives up partisanship.

 

[injurai]

<--- Former black republican..

Sorry guys.. :\ I didn't know..was making too much money to realize it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2tLyqfJd54