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Times When You Have Changed Your Mind About a Big Issue

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Kinsei

Banned
Going by Google's definition there's bigots on both sides lol. But for the sake of debate I'll use the less precise colloquial definition. Even if it is true by your standards, you shouldn't use it because it alienates people that you could otherwise have a conversation with (and eventually bring to your side). For similar reasons, people that make minor racist or homophobic comments shouldn't be fired from their jobs. It just angers people more and drives up partisanship.

People that get so angry at being called a bigot that it drives them even further toward homophobia, racism, etc were never going to come around.

Not being tolerant of bigotry does not make someone a bigot.
 
Duh? It's not that I think religion trumps everything else, it's that I don't like the fact people are descending on these backwater towns and expecting them to change at the drop of the hat. I think the tone of the discussion could be improved, basically. Calling people bigots and equivalent to racists isn't helpful, particularly.

Yes, how could I forget the great stampede on Hicksville, USA where people were forced to believe in the homosexual unions? Silly me. I forgot that happened. Seriously, you're creating boogie men where there are none.

The bigots can keep their beliefs if they want. No one gives a fuck what a bigot thinks. The morons should take the advice liberals have been trying to tell them for years with abortion. "Mind your own damn business. It's none of your concern."

You see the problem doesn't lay with people "descending on backwater towns." It's rather the people in backwater towns going out of their way to make sure Bob and Jim don't have a wedding cake for their wedding. That discrimination is not holy. Judge your damn selves and not anybody else.
 

red13th

Member
So people don't want you to have rights and if you don't tolerate the fact they want you to be a lesser citizen you are a bigot. That's nice.
 
People that get so angry at being called a bigot that it drives them even further toward homophobia, racism, etc were never going to come around.

Not being tolerant of bigotry does not make someone a bigot.

It does in my opinion. Dismissing people that don't hold views similar to yours isn't helpful to society at all. How can you expect them to show you empathy when you have none for them?
Yes, how could I forget the great stampede on Hicksville, USA where people were forced to believe in the homosexual unions? Silly me. I forgot that happened. Seriously, you're creating boogie men where there are none.

The bigots can keep their beliefs if they want. No one gives a fuck what a bigot thinks. The morons should take the advice liberals have been trying to tell them for years with abortion. "Mind your own damn business. It's none of your concern."

You see the problem doesn't lay with people "descending on backwater towns." It's rather the people in backwater towns going out of their way to make sure Bob and Jim don't have a wedding cake for their wedding. That discrimination is not holy. Judge your damn selves and not anybody else.
The thing is, these towns are based around judging people. Particularly in the south, the whole society (outside of the cities) IS based on judging people. And not just on race and sexuality. Clothing, hair, vehicle. Everything is judged much more than in places like California. I can say this because I've lived in both. "Goths" in California would be branded as suspected devil worshipers in some Alabama towns.
 

red13th

Member
It does in my opinion. Dismissing people that don't hold views similar to yours isn't helpful to society at all. How can you expect them to show you empathy when you have none for them?

Their "opinions" equate people being denied rights and being treated as second class citizens. It's disgusting that you think that the people who suffer the repercussions of those "opinions" are supposed to somehow tolerate that.
 
Yes, how could I forget the great stampede on Hicksville, USA where people were forced to believe in the homosexual unions? Silly me. I forgot that happened. Seriously, you're creating boogie men where there are none.

The bigots can keep their beliefs if they want. No one gives a fuck what a bigot thinks. The morons should take the advice liberals have been trying to tell them for years with abortion. "Mind your own damn business. It's none of your concern."

You see the problem doesn't lay with people "descending on backwater towns." It's rather the people in backwater towns going out of their way to make sure Bob and Jim don't have a wedding cake for their wedding. That discrimination is not holy. Judge your damn selves and not anybody else.

Language like this only stances my anti abortion views though. :/ You're wrong.

Appealing to people for logical and empathetic reasons will help you get your point across better. Siting the financial hardship of a single mother or unplanned pregnancy is more likely to get me to agree with you than telling me i'm a bigot who should shut up and accept liberal ideology.
 

BinaryPork2737

Unconfirmed Member
2. Gay Marriage- At first I didn't care about it, now I'm kind of meh on it because I feel as though people are being forced to accept it. I have a real problem with how society is treating people in "flyover country" that have religious objections to gay marriage. Not everybody lives in New York or Los Angeles.

The thing about this that always bugs me is that people say that they're being forced to accept something. The same people are forcing others to accept one view instead of embracing others by using religion as some ultimate deciding factor. Besides, it's not even directly affecting people who want heterosexual marriages. You can still have heterosexual marriages if gay marriage is legalized, stop forcing people to accept only one form of marriage.
 

DOWN

Banned
It does in my opinion. Dismissing people that don't hold views similar to yours isn't helpful to society at all. How can you expect them to show you empathy when you have none for them?
The thing is, these towns are based around judging people. Particularly in the south, the whole society (outside of the cities) IS based on judging people. And not just on race and sexuality. Clothing, hair, vehicle. Everything is judged much more than in places like California. I can say this because I've lived in both. "Goths" in California would be branded as suspected devil worshipers in some Alabama towns.

Is this that thing where homophobic people turn themselves into the victims of homophobia and say they are being persecuted?
 
The thing about this that always bugs me is that people say that they're being forced to accept something. The same people are forcing others to accept one view instead of embracing others by using religion as some ultimate deciding factor. Besides, it's not even directly affecting people who want heterosexual marriages. You can still have heterosexual marriages if gay marriage is legalized, stop forcing people to accept only one form of marriage.
They would argue that their culture is being impeded upon- which it is in many ways. There are quite a few stories out now about religious organizations having to pull out of public-private partnerships because the religious institution doesn't accept gay marriage. I'm sympathetic to that situation. I'm also sympathetic to the public accommodations intrusion (like the cake-baking lady). You can't really argue that that isn't government intrusion where there previously was none.
 
D

Deleted member 102362

Unconfirmed Member
I used to be religious, but a few years of questions, reflection and spending a time talking to an atheist friend made me realize that religion was not a part of who I was anymore. I now feel like I'm being true to myself.

You turned white?

I get it!
 
For similar reasons, people that make minor racist or homophobic comments shouldn't be fired from their jobs. It just angers people more and drives up partisanship.

facepalm.

I don't believe that you're a "guru" at anything. Please...take a vision quest and find your real name.
 
Gay marriage.

I used to feel that a separate but equal state like civil union was sufficient, Then i learned there is no such thing as separate but equal.

Gay marriage for me as well, but then I realized why did I hold such a stance in the first place when the Supreme Court used the same reasoning in Brown v. Board of Education.
 
Oh man. College did that for me. Opened my eyes to the diversity of people in terms of background, sexual identity, race, religion...everything.

You can learn lots when you're in a goddamn foxhole with people. You can also learn lots you work together and play together. In college, I became a liberal that recognized where he came from, and decided to react to the world differently so that my kids didn't have the same biases that I did. And I think I came out of it a better person. Just have to recognize and keep on trying, right?
 

BearPawB

Banned
i used to defend the casual use of the word "retard" to refer to friends, and the concept that people shouldn't be offended by stuff that isn't meant to be offensive.

But then i realized, why use language that you know offends others. There are so many better words in the world. Why use ones that hurt people, just because they don't hurt you?
 
So people don't want you to have rights and if you don't tolerate the fact they want you to be a lesser citizen you are a bigot. That's nice.
That's if you consider gay marriage a constitution right, which I'm kind of conflicted on. Now, if you'd like to open up the discussion for doing away with government recognition of marriage altogether, and simply have varying civil unions for all kinds of human relationships (including polygamous), I AM for that.
 
D

Deleted member 102362

Unconfirmed Member
Oh man. College did that for me. Opened my eyes to the diversity of people in terms of background, sexual identity, race, religion...everything.

You can learn lots when you're in a goddamn foxhole with people. You can also learn lots you work together and play together. In college, I became a liberal that recognized where he came from, and decided to react to the world differently so that my kids didn't have the same biases that I did. And I think I came out of it a better person. Just have to recognize and keep on trying, right?

I feel weird admitting this.

When I entered college, I was unsure of how I felt about gay marriage. This changed when I met a gay guy who ended up becoming one of my closest friends throughout my entire time in college. Getting to know him (and other people) while expanding my understanding of the world on other fronts (including the religion example I posted earlier) made me realize I had absolutely no problem with gay marriage.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Affirmative action: Used to hate it, now I still don't necessarily like it but I challenge opponents to devise a better way of combating institutional racism.

Death Penalty: Used to be all for it, now I'm almost completely against it simply because of how many innocent people have been killed.
 
It does in my opinion. Dismissing people that don't hold views similar to yours isn't helpful to society at all. How can you expect them to show you empathy when you have none for them?

Intolerance of bigotry is not bigotry. It is intolerance, and there is a difference. If my children are gay, and I choose to not associate with those people that did not associate with them (say an uncle had a religious issue or something), that does not make me a bigot.
 
I used to be a huge Sony fanboy. Then I got a 360, and it was pretty amazing. I still refuse to get a Nintendo console, so I mean....I'm not there yet.
 

JCX

Member
On one hand, I greatly dislike some of the contempt coastal people seem to have for people in the midwest/south. The conservative/liberal split is much more of a rural/urban split. There are conservative hubs and liberal hubs all over the country.

That said, regardless of where you are, gay marriage isn't forcing anything on anyone else.

For myself, I used to think groups based on race/gender/orientation weren't helpful b/c it ended with people excluding themselves, but as I grew up I realized that the "colorblind" racial politics I was raised on in school served to mute minority voices.

Now I understand the importance of being able to have a space where people can discuss these issues in a world that in a society that is largely stacked against us.
 
When I was in middle school, I met my first atheist, and I though it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard. I berated her for nearly 20 minutes with little more than incredulity. I'm more accepting of atheism now, even though I'm still technically Christian.

I used to be against gay marriage because I didn't think there was enough proof that it was a biological process.

Back when I was like 20-22 I used to think that black people younger than myself had no reason to be fearful of racism for their future job prospects. Didn't realize I was "one of the good ones" and didn't the think the backslide in wage disparity after the recession was possible.

I didn't think it was possible for Bush to win in 2000 (because the country was doing so well with the Clinton admin) or 2004 (because the war was a disaster), and when Obama first announced his candidacy for 2008 I thought Hilary would wipe the floor with him. I now realize that I don't understand American moderates at all.
 
Intolerance of bigotry is not bigotry. It is intolerance, and there is a difference. If my children are gay, and I choose to not associate with those people that did not associate with them (say an uncle had a religious issue or something), that does not make me a bigot.
There's a difference between an action and a belief. What if he didn't dis-associate himself and simply believed they shouldn't marry people of the same sex? That's not an action, it's simply a belief. Suppose he treated them well otherwise? Would dis-association with him be bigotry then? I would argue that it's at least cruel.
I feel weird admitting this.

When I entered college, I was unsure of how I felt about gay marriage. This changed when I met a gay guy who ended up becoming one of my closest friends throughout my entire time in college. Getting to know him (and other people) while expanding my understanding of the world on other fronts (including the religion example I posted earlier) made me realize I had absolutely no problem with gay marriage.
It did the opposite for me. When I was in highschool, I actually argued with a social teacher about "why should we care?" About gay people getting married. After going through college, my belief that gay people should be able to get married was solidified, but the idea that the government should be in the business of recognizing marriage at all was brought to the fore. Partially because people I knew were excessively rabid against people who were against gay marriage, and partially because I began to think about "open marriages" and polygamous relationships as viable forms of a sustainable relationship.
 

JDSN

Banned
I was into complaining about the politically correct society, feminazis, entitled minorities (while being one, mind you), then I became an adult like most people do and slowly learned about having empathy for people outside of my circle. It wasnt some important event that triggered the change or some shameful shit that I did, I just realized that me and people like me come across as even more whinny, entitled and miserable than the ones they point at.

That little change of perspective helped me to be open to all kinds of things and it has helped me a lot in my personal life, my struggle with depression and even my career.


Edit: Hahaha I just found an old copy of Atlas Shrugged, lord what a cunt I was.
 
When you're a lonely 14-year-old with nothing to keep you company but conservative talk radio, you start forming a hell of a lot of wrong opinions. I've had to alter my beliefs on many counts to remain intellectually honest with myself. Off the top of my head...
  • Used to be "pro-life" from an angle of personal responsibility, i.e. "You made it, you keep it". Now I believe everyone has complete sovereignty over their bodies, and that the sovereignty of an adult supercedes that of a lump of cells whether you believe it's "alive" or not.
  • Used to be anti-AA, again, from an angle of personal responsibility, i.e. "You're responsible for your own success and failure". Now the obvious state of things is clear to me, that people are born into situations they can't help that can and will effect their ability to succeed. An ideal world wouldn't require affirmative action, but we still have a long way to go before the playing field is level.
  • Used to be an Objectivist turned anarcho-capitalist. Freedom is life's paramount virtue. I still believe that, but I'm no longer so naive that I believe removing any form of central government would make us any more "free". I realized freedom is a state of mind, not something anyone can just give you. I guess the only label I'd use to describe myself politically nowadays is "pragmatic progressive". I accept the role of government and don't care what size it is so long as it works.
  • I've always believed white privilege was a thing but believed that it didn't apply to me - grew up poor with a stripper mom and a deadbeat dad, living in motels, making minimum wage, etc. "My race never did me any favors". And that may have been true to some extent, but it's not necessarily about counting your blessings, but considering how much worse it could have been if you were in the same situation and black, for example. I think part of what confuses people about the term is how it's worded. People look for these magical blessings in their life and when they find none they feel the label doesn't apply to them. But blessings don't always manifest in overt ways.
That's really all I can think of off the top of my head. My mind has never been changed by any one argument with exception to the last, which was changed by the late Gaborn on this very forum. I continue to alter my worldview daily and assumptions I make about the world are either confirmed or debunked.
 

y2dvd

Member
Probably the death penalty. I used to straight out believe "an eye for an eye". Now I'm somewhere in the middle.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Gun control. I think when I was younger, I was pretty just straight up pro-guns, but as I've gotten older I've really realized the epidemic we have. I still like guns, and still own a shotgun that I use for hunting and competitive trap, but I do believe there needs to be a lot more control on them.
 
But what if he didn't dis-associate himself and simply believed they shouldn't marry people of the same sex? That's not an action, it's simply a belief. Suppose he treated them well otherwise? Would dis-association with him be bigotry then? I would argue that it's at least cruel.

But he's still treating them differently in a pretty large way. If he wouldn't want the same happiness for my children that he'd want for me, or his children, then he's still treating them differently and that is not acceptable. If he was willing to say "my love for this person is greater than my respect for this rule/doctrine/whatever" then we could talk about things.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
I used to follow politics a lot, but I don't really care anymore. Following political news only makes me angry.
 

methane47

Member
The thing is, these towns are based around judging people. Particularly in the south, the whole society (outside of the cities) IS based on judging people. And not just on race and sexuality. Clothing, hair, vehicle. Everything is judged much more than in places like California. I can say this because I've lived in both. "Goths" in California would be branded as suspected devil worshipers in some Alabama towns.

Soooo following your logic, are you saying that they should make goth clothing illegal in rural alabama because the residents dont like it there?

Because that is your reasoning for gay marriage.
 

Damerman

Member
I believe that global warming is a geological phase the earth is going through independent of the human footprint. I think its like the ice age, or whatever climate change occurred throughout the history of the earth. At first i didnt believe it at all, and then i believed after so many credible studies were done on it.... Now i just don't know what to believe other than to keep an open mind and discerning good information from bad information regarding the issue.
 

Damerman

Member
Used to hate Obama, then I matured. He's a pretty good president, if it weren't for congress he could actually show it.
Also this. I voted for romney. I admitted this in another thread and i got dragged. Which i still think is kind of unfair.
 
Language like this only stances my anti abortion views though. :/ You're wrong.

Appealing to people for logical and empathetic reasons will help you get your point across better. Siting the financial hardship of a single mother or unplanned pregnancy is more likely to get me to agree with you than telling me i'm a bigot who should shut up and accept liberal ideology.

Are my daily affairs any of your business? No. They're not. Whether I'm taking a shit or what I'm watching on TV. The party of conservatives sure like to know what the fuck everyone is doing in their daily lives. It doesn't concern you whether someone is having an abortion, getting married to someone of the same sex or stuffing their face with Cheetos and high calorie soda.

Stay the fuck out of other people's affairs. If you don't like them, fine. Cry about it to anyone who wants to listen. You are all working yourselves up about shit that doesn't effect you whatsoever. Do you really think God is not going to let you into heaven because you didn't stop an abortion from taking place or because Bob and Jim got married and you made their cake, or Annie ate a bag of Cheetos and washed it down with a two liter of soda? It doesn't make a difference to you whatsoever.

All the time you waste with other people's concerns is less time you could be spending actually doing something of value like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. People who actually want some help. But instead, nope...we're going to go against the flow and ignore significant issues while we delve into what the fuck people are doing in their homes and their consultations with doctors as well. Hungry and homeless. Who gives a shit? Let's spend our time on dictating how people live their lives. They should live like us...yeah! I'm a great person. No abortions, no gay marriage(but even then certainly no cake if they're getting married or not) and definitely no Cheetos.

Anyone arguing companies can opt out of non-discriminatory values based on religious exemptions is fooling themselves. I don't like gay people so I won't serve them a wedding cake or any cake for that matter. Put in any words you want for gay people...Blacks, Asians, Jews, you name it. You can't fucking discriminate in this country. How fucking hard is that to understand?
 

Opiate

Member
Also this. I voted for romney. I admitted this in another thread and i got dragged. Which i still think is kind of unfair.

It is unfair. We try to avoid the echo chamber effect, but it's pretty hard for a variety of reasons that are outside the scope of this thread.
 
Probably the death penalty. I used to straight out believe "an eye for an eye". Now I'm somewhere in the middle.

I forgot about this one. With all of the mounting evidence about differences in sentencing and the brazen cases of minorities being railroaded in small towns, I can no longer wholeheartedly support the death penalty. Our criminal justice system is too broken to trust with the lives of people.
 

Daft Bird

Member
I changed my mind in a few issues in the last five years or so, the bigger ones were gay marriage, drug legalization, and abortion. I was basically against all of them until I watched some John Stossel. He framed the discussion with regards personal freedoms and that made the answer clear to me. It clicked for me, and then I became a libertarian.
 
Soooo following your logic, are you saying that they should make goth clothing illegal in rural alabama because the residents dont like it there?

Because that is your reasoning for gay marriage.
If the state had a valid reason to do it, I guess they could. They wouldn't, and that's the basic argument for gay marriage. I'm not against gay marriage persay, just the method in which its being enforced. Which, it should be noted, is based on my relatively recent belief that there shouldn't be government recognition of marriage at all, and that the government should recognize a broad swath of legal relationships as the same or similar status.
Anyone arguing companies can opt out of non-discriminatory values based on religious exemptions is fooling themselves. I don't like gay people so I won't serve them a wedding cake or any cake for that matter. Put in any words you want for gay people...Blacks, Asians, Jews, you name it. You can't fucking discriminate in this country. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Pretty hard considering the constitution pretty much doesn't give the government the power to enforce that. The federal government enforces regulations on interstate commerce, not commerce within states. Moreover, that's saying nothing about the property rights problem and whatnot.
 

garyBig

Member
Are my daily affairs any of your business? No. They're not. Whether I'm taking a shit or what I'm watching on TV. The party of conservatives sure like to know what the fuck everyone is doing in their daily lives. It doesn't concern you whether someone is having an abortion, getting married to someone of the same sex or stuffing their face with Cheetos and high calorie soda.

Stay the fuck out of other people's affairs. If you don't like them, fine. Cry about it to anyone who wants to listen. You are all working yourselves up about shit that doesn't effect you whatsoever. Do you really think God is not going to let you into heaven because you didn't stop an abortion from taking place or because Bob and Jim got married and you made their cake, or Annie ate a bag of Cheetos and washed it down with a two liter of soda? It doesn't make a difference to you whatsoever.

All the time you waste with other people's concerns is less time you could be spending actually doing something of value like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. People who actually want some help. But instead, nope...we're going to go against the flow and ignore significant issues while we delve into what the fuck people are doing in their homes and their consultations with doctors as well. Hungry and homeless. Who gives a shit? Let's spend our time on dictating how people live their lives. They should live like us...yeah! I'm a great person. No abortions, no gay marriage(but even then certainly no cake if they're getting married or not) and definitely no Cheetos.

Anyone arguing companies can opt out of non-discriminatory values based on religious exemptions is fooling themselves. I don't like gay people so I won't serve them a wedding cake or any cake for that matter. Put in any words you want for gay people...Blacks, Asians, Jews, you name it. You can't fucking discriminate in this country. How fucking hard is that to understand?

Amen.

Republican logic like 'I don't want government telling me what to do but I want government telling others what and what not to do' (with the obvious implication of them being lesser) is always something to behold. (Something necessarily infused with lots of narrowmindedness and hate, ergo bigotry)
[ note: not explicitly directed at any posters in this thread]
 

quesalupa

Member
Kinda. I never really thought alcohol was all that smart to drink but I thought it was way more acceptable than smoking weed. Now I just think they're both dumb. I mean, I'll do either one every now and then, but everything in moderation people. So yeah, legalize weed or abolish alcohol, because that shit is hypocritical.
 

Opiate

Member
I forgot about this one. With all of the mounting evidence about differences in sentencing and the brazen cases of minorities being railroaded in small towns, I can no longer wholeheartedly support the death penalty. Our criminal justice system is too broken to trust with the lives of people.

There are two issues for me. The first is the one you've brought up; inequity.

The other, though, is whether it's effective. I haven't seen a great deal of evidence to suggest that capital punishment acts as an effective deterrent. If it's not a deterrent, then I don't endorse it. At that point, we're choosing to kill another human being even though it will not stop others from committing the same crimes and even though it costs tons of money to do so (which it does). You have to be very invested in the concept of revenge to endorse the death penalty at that point, since there is no other justification.
 
Are my daily affairs any of your business? No. They're not. Whether I'm taking a shit or what I'm watching on TV. The party of conservatives sure like to know what the fuck everyone is doing in their daily lives. It doesn't concern you whether someone is having an abortion, getting married to someone of the same sex or stuffing their face with Cheetos and high calorie soda.

Stay the fuck out of other people's affairs. If you don't like them, fine. Cry about it to anyone who wants to listen. You are all working yourselves up about shit that doesn't effect you whatsoever. Do you really think God is not going to let you into heaven because you didn't stop an abortion from taking place or because Bob and Jim got married and you made their cake, or Annie ate a bag of Cheetos and washed it down with a two liter of soda? It doesn't make a difference to you whatsoever.

All the time you waste with other people's concerns is less time you could be spending actually doing something of value like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. People who actually want some help. But instead, nope...we're going to go against the flow and ignore significant issues while we delve into what the fuck people are doing in their homes and their consultations with doctors as well. Hungry and homeless. Who gives a shit? Let's spend our time on dictating how people live their lives. They should live like us...yeah! I'm a great person. No abortions, no gay marriage(but even then certainly no cake if they're getting married or not) and definitely no Cheetos.

Anyone arguing companies can opt out of non-discriminatory values based on religious exemptions is fooling themselves. I don't like gay people so I won't serve them a wedding cake or any cake for that matter. Put in any words you want for gay people...Blacks, Asians, Jews, you name it. You can't fucking discriminate in this country. How fucking hard is that to understand?

Because we live in a society.

I care about things that don't affect me at all. I donate my time to the homeless shelters, food banks, and i'll throw some money in a church basket, or i'll tip my Waiter extra when he or she has had a hard day.

If i owned a business, and a nazi came in and wanted a cake... I would refuse to make him one. If a KKK member came in and demanded a cake, I would refuse to make him one.

So, we differ on some policy issues. I don't think all abortions are justified you might. I might be for the death penalty, you might not.

I don't hate you for your views. I think they're wrong, but I would never tell you, you're an idiot.

Let's hug and celebrate the freedom to hold different view points.
 

Kinsei

Banned
I should probably post mine, huh?

I used to think that racism was over and everyone had the same opportunities. I stopped thinking that when I turned 15 and actually started paying attention to things that happen in the world.

I used to be very transphobic. You know the stereotype where a homophobe is really just a closeted self-hating gay person due to religion/societal pressure/family/whatever? I was a trans version of that. I stopped acting that way around 3-ish years ago when I finally decided to accept myself.
 
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