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[jiggles]

I got a response to my refund request!

Hello,

Yesterday, I purchased a copy of Ultra Street Fighter IV for PS4 from the Sony Entertainment Network Store (order number XXXXXXXXX).

However, the game is not of satisfactory quality. I own the title on PS3 and PC already, but this version is riddled with issues that neither of those versions have. The menus are slow and unresponsive, there are text issues everywhere when playing online, the online performance is significantly worse than the other versions of the game I own, the gameplay is less responsive than on PS3, and within just an hour's play I've encountered no fewer than 5 bugs affecting gameplay that weren't present in any other version of the game.

I am aware that your policy is to not offer refunds on digital content, unless required to by local law. Here in the UK, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 dictates that digital content must:

• be of satisfactory quality,
• be fit for purpose, and
• meet any description.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...here-under-a-digital-content-contract/enacted

The description on the online storefront promises smoother gameplay than the PS3 version:
"Enjoy smoother gameplay, refined through PS3™ fan feedback."

With this in mind, I draw your attention to the following clauses:

34 (2)The quality of digital content is satisfactory if it meets the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of—
(a)any description of the digital content,

34 (3)The quality of digital content includes its state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of digital content—
(b)freedom from minor defects;

34 (8)In a contract to supply digital content a term about the quality of the digital content may be treated as included as a matter of custom.

36 (1) Every contract to supply digital content is to be treated as including a term that the digital content will match any description of it given by the trader to the consumer.

I therefore request that you refund this purchase immediately.

Regards,

Hi,

Thanks for your contact about your PlayStation 4 (PS4).

I understand from your e-mail that you're experiencing difficulties with your PS4. The following steps may help resolve your issue:

First please try to delete and re-install the content.

If this does not resolve your issue.

Power up the console in Safe Mode. Instructions on how to do this can be found here: http://faq.en.playstation.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9522

Select Option 5: Rebuild Database

If you are still experiencing problems after these steps please try:

Power up in Safe Mode and select Option 6: Initialise PS4

CAUTION: this option will delete all data from the console. Instructions on how to back-up your data can be found here: https://support.us.playstation.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5228/~/manage-ps4-save-game-data

I hope this helps, but if you have any other questions please contact PlayStation Support using the contact details below or by replying to this e-mail. Quote 150527-003741 and one of our team will be happy to help you.

Thanks,


Gordon
PlayStation Support

You can't help but laugh, really.

 

[BankSly]

That sucks, but i've been refunded before. I once had sleeping dogs in my cart on psn before it went free on psplus then a couple weeks later it went on psplus so I jumped to my cart to redeem it and it charged me 50 bucks even though it was supposed to be free on psplus. I called and was refunded the money to my wallet.

 

[Pandy]

I got a response to my refund request!





You can't help but laugh, really.

Good job on that claim. I did something similar a while back, but it wasn't as detailed a claim as yours, nor was it as clear cut a case.
I tried to get a refund on the Destiny expansion pass before any content was released (I know, I've learned).

I wasn't mad that they didn't refund me, but that it took months and months of e-mails to get them to admit, basically off-the-record, that they were never going to refund me. They made continual references to only being able to refund in cases of 'X' caveat, and when I showed them evidence that my claim fell into that caveat they changed the goalposts to 'Y' caveat, then 'Z' caveat.

I won't be buying digitally from Sony ever again. The customer service experience was one of the worst I've ever had.

EDIT: I'm in the UK for reference.

 

[Big Green Anus]

Agreed with this! Bad service for digital goods from Sony! So disappointed with their service

I almost wanted to sell my PS4 due to it, but...........I need Knack 2(not joking) and Uncharted 4

 

[AlphaDragoon]

I'm never buying a Sony product digitally again. I bought Bloodborne off the PlayStation Store and both me and my brother were playing it as my PS4 was set up as the primary console. Until one day he can't because it says it's only licensed to me. I get on Sony Entertainment Network for answers, make sure my PS4 is still the primary console on there and in the PS4 system.

End up talking to their support who tells me that I changed my primary console to another PS4 (I don't have another PS4) and it can't be changed for six months. Basically says my brother is screwed and has to buy Bloodborne all over again for himself. I tell the guy I haven't changed my primary console and he says I did it over the web today, despite the fact that on the same website it tells you explicitly that you CANNOT deactivate a primary console on there and have to do it from the PS4. Which I explain to him and give him the webpage that says so from their own site. Still says, sorry we can't change it you're screwed.

Never had any trouble with anything digital from Steam, Nintendo, MS, the older Sony consoles. But now Sony can go fuck themselves.

 

[Spunky Monkey]

Nice to see the sony defence force come out in such large numbers for this thread.

What Sony are doing is disgusting, they act like they are out of pocket or the downloadable games are not recoverable. They can easily revoke licences on machines but they act like they sent out physical goods. Hopefully this will help Sony to realise how big an issue this is because despite all their hacks they still demand we keep our passwords secure without the tech to back it up.

I even hear that psn and the webstore have different password length requirements...

 

[BadHand]

Everytime I read a story like this, I log in to my SEN account to check i haven't stored CC details on sony servers.

I haven't.

The amount of times i've gone to impulse buy something only to be reminded that I need to enter my CC via a dualshock4, and I just give up.

I wonder how much revenue Sony has lost due to a lack of two-step authentication and an anti-consumer TOS.

 

[OraleeWey]

I'm never buying a Sony product digitally again. I bought Bloodborne off the PlayStation Store and both me and my brother were playing it as my PS4 was set up as the primary console. Until one day he can't because it says it's only licensed to me. I get on Sony Entertainment Network for answers, make sure my PS4 is still the primary console on there and in the PS4 system.

End up talking to their support who tells me that I changed my primary console to another PS4 (I don't have another PS4) and it can't be changed for six months. Basically says my brother is screwed and has to buy Bloodborne all over again for himself. I tell the guy I haven't changed my primary console and he says I did it over the web today, despite the fact that on the same website it tells you explicitly that you CANNOT deactivate a primary console on there and have to do it from the PS4. Which I explain to him and give him the webpage that says so from their own site. Still says, sorry we can't change it you're screwed.

Never had any trouble with anything digital from Steam, Nintendo, MS, the older Sony consoles. But now Sony can go fuck themselves.

You can deactivate all your handhelds and consoles from the website. You can do this only one time every six months. I've done this a few times on different accounts. Long time ago though, don't do it now anymore.

 

[harrisk954]

I, for one, have received refunds twice from Sony.

First, Grid 2 was released as a free PS Plus title and I was mistakenly charged $59.99 for it. I called Sony, spoke to someone and they credited my account which took about 5 days.

The second time was when my son purchased a game. I caught it before he downloaded it and when I called Sony, they were great and removed it from my download list and refunded the money.

Both of those were on the PS3. So, unless something has changed in Sony's policy, I, personally, have had no complaints.

But, I have read the policy and heard stories from others, so I just don't generally buy games digitally from the PS Store, except for discounted titles or low-priced indies. Plus, I know what a pain it is to try and get a refund for a digital purchase from any online retailer, if you can do so at all. So, if I were to buy digital, I would do so through Amazon, which would refund me no questions asked.

That being said, if Sony refused to refund money for a game purchased with stolen funds as happened here, they should be sued in a class action under applicable consumer protection laws depending on where the claimant is located.

 

[NullPointer]

I got a refund for Battlefield 4 but it took a good deal of persistence and Sony and all the digital storefronts with a no refund policy deserve to be held up to the glare of public scrutiny.

Its bullshit on so many levels to deny refunds for digital purchases purely because they're digital - if anything, the nature of these products should make refunds trivial to issue.

 

[AzerPhire]

I got a reply from Driveclub rather easily. Sent them a quick email and it was done within the day.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I, for one, have received refunds twice from Sony.

First, Grid 2 was released as a free PS Plus title and I was mistakenly charged $59.99 for it.

This is quite unhelpful unless you specifically got a refund from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe. If you are in North or South America, you are dealing with Sony Computer Entertainment America, a company that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

.

 

[jcm]

That policy is just unconscionable. I think at that point I'd go ahead and do the chargeback, and then after they ban my account chargeback everything else I've bought from PSN under the defective merchandise claim.

To me, the worst thing about this policy is that is so easy to be customer-freindly. They haven't lost any physical goods. Ban the console that made the purchase, revoke the license to the software, and credit the credit card. It's so easy and painless for them, and yet they choose to be dicks about it.

 

[harrisk954]

This is quite unhelpful unless you specifically got a refund from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe. If you are in North or South America, you are dealing with Sony Computer Entertainment America, a company that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

After reading through all of the comments, I can see that SCEA appears to be much more flexible than SCEE. I find that to be very interesting as I always thought that the EU had stronger consumer protection laws than the US.. at least that is the way it seems as they are always going after big corporations (MS, Google, Apple, etc.) for antitrust violations.

 

[benny_a]

To me, the worst thing about this policy is that is so easy to be customer-freindly. They haven't lost any physical goods. Ban the console that made the purchase, revoke the license to the software, and credit the credit card. It's so easy and painless for them, and yet they choose to be dicks about it.

They can ban the console from playing online yes, but they can't invalidate the local copy of the game.

I still think they are dicks but that's just the way this stuff works if you don't have an always/periodic online system to verify licenses.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

To me, the worst thing about this policy is that is so easy to be customer-freindly. They haven't lost any physical goods. Ban the console that made the purchase, revoke the license to the software, and credit the credit card. It's so easy and painless for them, and yet they choose to be dicks about it.

This is why I would imagine there is something else going on that is making them take this - taking the Op at face value - shitty policy.
I would guess an extremely high volume of fraud / chargebacks / account sharing

 

[Springy]

They can ban the console from playing online yes, but they can't invalidate the local copy of the game.

Would the game be rendered inoperable, even offline, if you were connected to PSN at the time it was invalidated? Like how PS+ games have an expiry date that will still kick in even if you go offline permanently before your sub is due to expire.

Although it's moot if the user has already disconnected themselves, but to burn a console's ability to access PSN just to swipe a game sounds like a stupid amount of effort.

This is why I would imagine there is something else going on that is making them take this - taking the Op at face value - shitty policy.
I would guess an extremely high volume of fraud / chargebacks / account sharing

That doesn't make the way they treat all their customers any less reprehensible. A legitimate complaint cannot be dismissed on the assumption that there's a possibility it may be fraudulent; the problem lies in their systems and the solution is to lessen their ability to be exploited.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

That doesn't make the way they treat all their customers any less reprehensible. Legitimate complaints cannot be dismissed on the assumption that there's a possibility it may be fraudulent.

I don't disagree, but I have to assume there is something making them try and play hardball with customer support requests outside of just being inherently cunts.

 

[Eurocult]

I accidentally purchased the PS3 version of Resident Evil: REv 2 when I meant to buy it for PS4 and they gave me a full refund without a problem.

 

[benny_a]

Would the game be rendered inoperable, even offline, if you were connected to PSN at the time it was invalidated? Like how PS+ games have an expiry date that will still kick in even if you go offline permanently before your sub is due to expire.

Although it's moot if the user has already disconnected themselves, but to burn a console's ability to access PSN just to swipe a game sounds like a stupid amount of effort.

The way it works currently is that the game is removed from your account's download list and license list.

On the PS4 for example you would see the button "Buy for $XX" below the "Start Game" button, but the local copy is still valid.
Even if the system is not the primary system you can still launch it. I think there is some local cookie that saves what your account has access to, because one would assume it would disallow launching it on a non-primary system but it doesn't do that.

 

[jcm]

They can ban the console from playing online yes, but they can't invalidate the local copy of the game.

I still think they are dicks but that's just the way this stuff works if you don't have an always/periodic online system to verify licenses.

But so what? What exactly do they lose? People will scheme to steal software by buying a bunch of PS4s?

This is why I would imagine there is something else going on that is making them take this - taking the Op at face value - shitty policy.
I would guess an extremely high volume of fraud / chargebacks / account sharing

Maybe, but it could just as easily be screwing people because they can get away with it. There's enough of that with other companies that it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Lightning Count]

Set my sky box to record this, going to watch it later.

 

[benny_a]

But so what? What exactly do they lose? People will scheme to steal software by buying a bunch of PS4s?

I don't know what their motivation is. I just corrected your statement that they can revoke the license.

They can revoke it but it doesn't have any effect.

 

[jcm]

I don't know what their motivation is. I just corrected your statement that they can revoke the license.

They can revoke it but it doesn't have any effect.

They would revoke it so the person getting the refund can't play it. So here's how it would go. I steal your PSN credentials, use them to buy Knack, and download it to my PS4. You notice, and complain to Sony. Sony revokes the license to Knack on your account so you can't play it, bans my PS4, and refunds your money. You are unaffected, I still have Knack but my PS4 is banned, Sony is out 10 minutes of their time, the bandwidth from the Knack download, and whatever revenue I, the Knack thief, would have generated in the future. They probably don't want my business anyway, but they've generated some goodwill from you, because the process was so painless, and you'll continue to buy digital games from them with confidence.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Maybe, but it could just as easily be screwing people because they can get away with it. There's enough of that with other companies that it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Well, most companies that don't like giving refunds will - at worst - lead you on a song and dance with customer support wasting your time on telephone tag until you get through to a supervisor who can authorise it, but taking a "no refunds under any circumstance, even where our own investigations show the purchase was fraudulent, take us to court if you got a problem with that" stance is pretty unusual for reputable companies.

Again, taking Op at face value. If the Ops case isn't as stated, that would likely be addressed on TV.

 

[DataGhost]

Can't the person do a chargeback or something similar to the card that was charge if they contact the bank saying it was a fradulent charge?

 

[benny_a]

They would revoke it so the person getting the refund can't play it. So here's how it would go. I steal your PSN credentials, use them to buy Knack, and download it to my PS4. You notice, and complain to Sony. Sony revokes the license to Knack on your account so you can't play it, bans my PS4, and refunds your money. You are unaffected, I still have Knack but my PS4 is banned, Sony is out 10 minutes of their time, the bandwidth from the Knack download, and whatever revenue I, the Knack thief, would have generated in the future. They probably don't want my business anyway, but they've generated some goodwill from you, because the process was so painless, and you'll continue to buy digital games from them with confidence.

Oh that way you mean. The victim gets the game removed because they never intentional purchased it anyway.

In general I think it's absolutely absurd how SCEE thinks their customers, who pay way more for each individual title, are being treated by default as a thief while in SCEA regions they have the same written policy but they are much more lax.

Can't the person do a chargeback or something similar to the card that was charge if they contact the bank saying it was a fradulent charge?

And then the victim of this whole ordeal will also have their PSN account locked because Sony (nor any other company) likes to pay the chargeback fee.

The whole digital-only games library stuff is sold on convenience but when it breaks down it breaks down hard.

 

[Dynasty8]

Can't the person do a chargeback or something similar to the card that was charge if they contact the bank saying it was a fradulent charge?

They can. But I'm guessing they just didn't want to go through the hassle. Sony should have handled this better.

 

[toythatkills]

Can't the person do a chargeback or something similar to the card that was charge if they contact the bank saying it was a fradulent charge?

It wasn't paid for by card, it was funds that were in the PSN account.

But even so, doing a chargeback gets your account banned by Sony.

 

[NullPointer]

Can't the person do a chargeback or something similar to the card that was charge if they contact the bank saying it was a fradulent charge?

They'd be banned from PSN and then lose access to *all* of their digital purchases.

 

[Springy]

Again, taking Op at face value. If the Ops case isn't as stated, that would likely be addressed on TV.

I think the prevalence of this clause in these discussions is the problem. Why shouldn't we, and the companies we do business with, operate under the assumption that the interaction is honest? If we couch all our statements with the addendum of "of course, assuming you're not lying", then I can start to understand why SCEE is taking the current approach. There is no reason to mistrust any of the complaints here.

Though it would explain amply why, when I contacted SCEE last year, described the game-breaking bug I was experiencing with BF4 and asked for a refund, the rep called me a liar and ended the call.

 

[Dynasty8]

And then the victim of this whole ordeal will also have their PSN account locked because Sony (nor any other company) likes to pay the chargeback fee.

That's miserable by any company's standards. Fraudulent charges are fraudulent charges.

No company can legally lock you out for a legitimate case of identity theft. Sure, they can take temporary precautions for this not to occur again, but to ban you because they received a chargeback on your behalf, that is borderline illegal... Sony should bite the bullet if they wish to continue to do proper business.

 

[liquidtmd]

I got a response to my refund request!





You can't help but laugh, really.

Man that's a fine point by point response to your rather vague email...

Fuck me Sony. You'd even give a little Wiggleroom if they'd even attempted to read your mail

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I think the prevalence of this clause in these discussions is the problem.

I'm using this as a stated assumption because I don't know any details other than whats been posted, and dont know the claimant from the OP on a personal level to vouch that what he is saying is 100% legit. That's all.

I don't work for Sony customer support, I'm just reading what some guy on the internet is saying.
Not assuming either party is 100% in the right or wrong based solely on one sides stated version of events should be the default setting for things like this.

That's miserable by any company's standards. Fraudulent charges are fraudulent charges.

No company can legally lock you out for a legitimate case of identity theft. Sure, they can take temporary precautions for this not to occur again, but to ban you because they received a chargeback on your behalf, that is borderline illegal...

Sure, but then you have to go through the hassle of actually taking someone to court, which takes time and money.

Like I said, its unusual for legitimate companies to behave this way, as any money 'lost' is generally less than consumer goodwill and PR is worth.

 

[SonnyBoy]

I mistakenly pre-ordered Thief 4... I didn't incur Sony any cost aside from whatever trivial bandwidth was used to receive the transaction and process it. Within minutes, I called Sony and told them it was a mistake.

After a week long "investigation" by Sony, they refused to refund my money or even credit the $60 to my PSN wallet. To that, I immediately told them to cancel PSN and that I would immediately sell my PS4. The agent, reopened the investigation after that and said it'd be another week... 5 minutes later, I received an email notification of my refund.

If Sony was willing to lose future money over something trivial, that's fine by me. I need the extra time in my day that gaming takes up anyway.

 

[DavidDesu]

Pretty shocking. Watchdog can really hit a company if the story is particularly bad as this seems to be. Hopefully Sony apologise profusely and state they will absolutely reverse their policy and soften up in cases like this.

 

[toythatkills]

Pretty shocking. Watchdog can really hit a company if the story is particularly bad as this seems to be. Hopefully Sony apologise profusely and state they will absolutely reverse their policy and soften up in cases like this.

They've said that they'll "review their process" which is good if it's not just words, but who knows?

 

[OneUh8]

Odd as I know several friends personally that have received refunds on digital purchases on PSN. So what is it?

 

[Freshmaker]

If it's credit card fraud go to the credit card company. Or is this a grey area for bank refunds too?

Chargebacks will get you banned from PSN.

Though apparently it is a good idea to have your CC company contact Sony and have them sort it out from there.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Odd as I know several friends personally that have received refunds on digital purchases on PSN. So what is it?

Are your friends British or American?

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Pretty shocking. Watchdog can really hit a company if the story is particularly bad as this seems to be. Hopefully Sony apologise profusely and state they will absolutely reverse their policy and soften up in cases like this.

I remember Watchdog drawing a lot of attention to the Xbox 360 E74 errors. Lots and lots of bad publicity - Microsoft later changed their refund policy to allow for a console swap for any affected console under 3 years of age, an immense win for consumer rights at the time which must have cost Microsoft a lot of money.

Let's hope they do the same here. And hope it forces Microsoft, Steam and Nintendo to look into their own digital refund policies.

 

[Tadpole]

I got a refund for Dark Souls II last year on the PS3; they were able to see that I hadn't gotten an achievement on it and were able to revoke the license.

It's clear they will refund for defective software. It seems they won't refund for other reasons, like fraudulent purchases.

 

[benny_a]

It's clear they will refund for defective software. It seems they won't refund for other reasons, like fraudulent purchases.

SonnyBoy and jiggles (for now at least) have not gotten refunds for defective software. (= Not as advertised or meeting the minimum quality standard as one would expect based on the advertisement.)

 

[toythatkills]

Barring a last-minute change, this should be the lead story, so be there in five minutes or so!

 

[Visualante2]

Why is Watchdog on during prime time? Does the show get any positive change? Last time I tuned in they were discussing Sports Direct who is still a shit shop doing shitty things to everyone. I guess this show doesn't have much clout.

 

[Cess007]

Odd as I know several friends personally that have received refunds on digital purchases on PSN. So what is it?

Are your friends British or American?

Refund as in get their money back on their credit card, or receive PSN Credit? Cause the only think i've received is the latter; once when the PSN charged me for a PSPlus game and another one when the Spotify Premium renewed by itself and i didn't want it.

 

[Visualante2]

These medieval skits are confusing. I'm glad Watchdog highlighted the problem of charge backs on accounts. It's not proportionate to block an entire account for a partial charge back. This is a key area where consumers need protection imo.

Same applies for changing terms of conditions. You should be able to refuse modified terms and conditions and still play old games.

 

[STEaMkb]

Did anyone watch the program. It was, er, sensationalist, to put it mildly.

(Paraphrasing) "On tonight's show... Remember when Sony was hacked by North Korea? Do you have a PS4? Then you had better watch out!"

lol

So many errors.

 

[toythatkills]

Did anyone watch the program. It was, er, sensationalist, to put it mildly.

(Paraphrasing) "On tonight's show... Remember when Sony was hacked by North Korea? Do you have a PS4? Then you had better watch out!"

lol

So many errors.

I think that was a joke.

 

[Bootador83]

So for those that didn't watch, Sony reinstated two such accounts that were suspended for fraud/chargebacks and said they'll work on improving their investigate process.

But they'll still suspend accounts pending investigation for chargebacks and no mention of changing the no refund policy.