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[Rookje]

Nobody remembers this article?

So the guy or girl you see in the "Before" and "After" photos in weight loss commercials, who completely changed body type with diet and exercise? You know, like Jared from Subway, who lost 230 pounds? Either they're about to be fat again in a couple of years, or they're a medical freak occurrence, like the cancer patient who was told he had six months to live but miraculously survives 20 years. That guy exists, we all know famous examples. But it's a rare, freak situation, living in defiance of all of the physical processes at work.

Hey, this guy lost 410 pounds on the infamous "Herbalife" diet. Amazing!

How rare? Well, this person did the math, and as far as they could tell, two out of 1,000 Weight Watchers customers actually maintain large weight losses permanently. Two out of a thousand. That means if you are fat, you are 25 times more likely to survive getting shot in the head than to stop being fat. A more recent study says it's even worse, for men at least -- they found 1 out of 1,290 severely obese males lost weight and kept it off, and 1 out of 677 females.

Meanwhile, here's an article where scientists marvel at the amazing success of Weight Watchers, because a study of their most successful customers showed they permanently lost 5 percent of their weight. Wow! You come in at 300 pounds, you stay at 285! Next stop, thong store!

Just because you lose massive amounts of weight, doesn't mean the fat cells go away. They remain, and are eager to be refilled by throwing your hunger hormones out of whack:

While researchers have known for decades that the body undergoes various metabolic and hormonal changes while it’s losing weight, the Australian team detected something new. A full year after significant weight loss, these men and women remained in what could be described as a biologically altered state. Their still-plump bodies were acting as if they were starving and were working overtime to regain the pounds they lost. For instance, a gastric hormone called ghrelin, often dubbed the “hunger hormone,” was about 20 percent higher than at the start of the study. Another hormone associated with suppressing hunger, peptide YY, was also abnormally low. Levels of leptin, a hormone that suppresses hunger and increases metabolism, also remained lower than expected. A cocktail of other hormones associated with hunger and metabolism all remained significantly changed compared to pre-dieting levels. It was almost as if weight loss had put their bodies into a unique metabolic state, a sort of post-dieting syndrome that set them apart from people who hadn’t tried to lose weight in the first place.

 

[SMattera]

Lost 140 lbs more than a decade ago.

It was immensely difficult, and required me to rethink virtually every part of my life. From time to time, I go through slumps where I put on 20, 30, even 50 lbs. Then, I snap back and slowly lose it over a period of several months.

I've accepted it as a lifelong battle, but it's one worth fighting. I don't like studies like this because they seem to imply that people should just give up. Statistically, it's unlikely that you'll ever earn a six-figure salary. Doesn't mean you shouldn't aspire to it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes. Why do people, when forced to lose weight in metabolic wards, invariably experience the same meatabolic adaptations to weight loss, and why are these adaptations invariably reversed by replacing leptin to set-point levels? And why do most of the very rare subset of people who are able to maintain their weight loss for several years on their own, when asked to return to the lab to be observed, still display the same adapations to weight loss? And why, when people are born with a mutation in the leptin gene, why do they invariably become morbidly obese, and the only way to correct this is replacement of leptin? You're right, there are other factors in obesity. Some people simply hoard more fat/glucose or have mutations in their gene that produces ghrelin, which causes their ghrelin levels to stay higher, which causes them to be hungrier. Besides mutations in the leptin producing gene, there may be mutations in the leptin receptor in the POMC of the hypothalamus, or their may be mutations in various downstream receptors/protein producing regions that can affect appetite and/or energy expenditure. Obesity does have complexities, but once it's established, leptin plays a huge role in maintaining one's set-point.

It's extremely complex. You know another very important hormone that also happens to stimulate the release of Leptin? Insulin. Producing less Insulin will directly lead into producing less Leptin, too, directly affecting the individual's satiety.

There are so many factors at play here that it's not fair to focus on just any one of them as "the answer."

 

[jay]

That's what I did. Dropped from 15 stone to 10.

And?

What a hilariously condescending anecdotal evidence based post in the face of an actual study.

 

[TheXfactor]

it's the economy's fault. food's prices have skyrocketed in the last 2 years in my country and something had to be cut.

i do have some days per week that i eat twice though.

man the economy sucks, especially when it comes to eating healthy. Healthy foods cost so much more than shitty foods. I never understood that to me

 

[harSon]

One of the few times I can say that I'm part of the 1%

 

[JCX]

That suggests that the best approach would be gradual weight loss instead of a crash diet like so many people try. You get someone down to where they've got a stable weight and then cut out 100 calories a day.

I agree that prevention would be much better.

I am gradually focusing on healthier habits. First got a regular gym routine, then cut down on sweet drinks/alcohol, then started cutting calories. Had I tried all three at once, i would have probably quit very quickly.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

I'm fully expecting this study to get linked, in every GAF obesity discussion for the foreseeable future.

 

[Veitsev]

I did it ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

.

 

[Eila]

Went from almost 230 pounds at 6 ft to 167~ or so. I think I could be cagetorized as obese at my worst. That was just changing my diet over a year. Now I'm trying to gain the physical condition of a healthy man. Just started hitting the gym this week.

 

[marrec]

I'm fully expecting this study to get linked, in every GAF obesity discussion for the foreseeable future.

Yep, which will pull the discussion into the weeds of this study and it's terrible conclusion and the terrible reporting done on it.

Great.

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Most fat people "want" to lose weight, but a lot of them don't want to make the difficult and oftentimes uncomfortable choices associated with that weight loss. They are comfortable and content where they are at. To say that all fat people have a burning desire to not be fat is to give too much credit to the human mind.

I agree.

Making the right difficult choices for longterm successs takes more than a lot of people are usually willing to give, even if those are the results most ultimately want. Many just want a quick fix and resort to those terrible "diets" than won't do shit longterm.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Obesity is more than just diet, exercise and genes. Environment plays a big part in it like the type of neighborhood you live in. All that dieting and exercise ain't gonna do you much good if the inherent environment you live in doesn't facilitate a healthy lifestyle. Most people will lose motivation down the line to have a lifestyle change so where you live plays a big role in how you maintain that kind of healthy living (like walking to the store, etc).

 

[marrec]

I agree.

Making the right difficult choices for longterm successs takes more than a lot of people are usually willing to give, even if those are the results most ultimately want. Many just want a quick fix and resort to those terrible "diets" than won't do shit longterm.

Which has nothing to do with ability to lose weight and everything to do with the human condition. This same pattern of wanting a lofty goal but not putting in the genuine effort to achieve that lofty goal is repeated throughout people's lives. The support structure for losing weight specifically is still not sufficient to make people A) understand the benefits of weight loss and B) understand how easy it is to get started with a LONG TERM weight loss strategy.

They think they need to drop 500 calories a day and run a 10 miles a week when in reality they only need to drop 100-200 calories a day with no additional physical activity. Many people don't understand that.

 

[Beer Monkey]

What a hilariously condescending anecdotal evidence based post in the face of an actual study.

A good half of studies are basically shit. http://www.collective-evolution.com...-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/

That's one of the reasons we have meta-analysis, but medical science is in need of major reform regardless.

The sad thing about how so much shit gets published is that anybody looking for confirmation bias can find something to back up their already-made-up mind.

I'm fully expecting this study to get linked, in every GAF obesity discussion for the foreseeable future.

See what I mean?

 

[Principate]

Agreed. The amount of calories in excess to maintain bodyweight an average person with an average diet profile can consume through liquids is staggering.

Don't you guys just buy coke zero, blah blah zero etc. I've always drunk that stuff.

 

[AnAnole]

Regardless of the validity of this particular study, I've heard statistics like these before. It's pretty depressing. I think the only thing that will make me lose weight at this point is getting stomach surgery, which I plan to do once I have insurance and money.

I recommend it. I spent nearly a decade yo-yoing. I lost 50+ lbs on 5 seperate occasions, always dieting the "correct" way, but eating a high protein diet, limiting carbohydrates, lifting weights, having a modest diet, and the weight eventually came back and then some. My metabolism would always be tanked after losing weight, even on very modest deficits where it took me a year to lose ~50 lbs (and I was still obese). I would also always feel famished after losing the weight. Then I finally got a sleeve gastrectomy, and the difference was massive. I've lost a ton of weight in a few months and I'm never hungry and my energy levels are much better than they have been since I started gaining weight in the first place.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Don't you guys just buy coke zero, blah blah zero etc. I've always drunk that stuff.

Fresca 4 life

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I agree.

Making the right difficult choices for longterm successs takes more than a lot of people are usually willing to give, even if those are the results most ultimately want. Many just want a quick fix and resort to those terrible "diets" than won't do shit longterm.

Unwilling or simply unable?

As a society we need to make it easier to make healthy decisions or the inability to be a healthy weight is going to continue to be as big of a problem as it is now.

If the healthy choice is the easiest choice then more people will make it. The difficult part is making that happen.

 

[marrec]

Don't you guys just buy coke zero, blah blah zero etc. I've always drunk that stuff.

When I do buy soda it's the zero calorie stuff but even that isn't as good for you as water or a light tea. Water is fucking dope and everyone should learn to love it.

 

[JMDSO]

Don't you guys just buy coke zero, blah blah zero etc. I've always drunk that stuff.

If you're eating out it's hard to find at times.

And I say this knowing full well that eating out in and of itself is a problem too.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I recommend it. I spent nearly a decade yo-yoing. I lost 50+ lbs on 5 seperate occasions, always dieting the "correct" way, but eating a high protein diet, limiting carbohydrates, lifting weights, having a modest diet, and the weight eventually came back and then some.

I must ask a very important question that is prompted by how you phrased "dieting."

Did you remain on the diet that caused you to lose the weight even after losing the weight? To put it another way, did you "change your diet permanently," rather than "go on a diet?"

 

[Principate]

A good half of studies are basically shit. http://www.collective-evolution.com...-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/

That's one of the reasons we have meta-analysis, but medical science is in need of major reform regardless.

The sad thing about how so much shit gets published is that anybody looking for confirmation bias can find something to back up their already-made-up mind.



See what I mean?

Yeah it's always strange when someone picks up a random and parades it as fact because science. ignoring how the scientific process works and a good load of have all sorts of error, some that are pretty far from minor. These papers exist to be cross checked analysed etc. not to be presented as indisputable fact always, always check the methodology of anything you read.

 

[fushi]

People can "just lose weight, it's so simple" in the same way it's simple to rise out of poverty. "Just go back to college, get a good degree, and then aggressively go job hunting. It's really straightforward!"

This is a horrible analogy and, honestly, insulting towards people are struggling to make ends meet. What on earth has happened to you, GAF?

Having said that, I am also on a calorie counting diet. It's been a success so far, but I found it almost impossible to eat normal amounts of food while visiting family. Some relatives will feel insulted unless you stuff yourself full to the brim, which in turn can lead to subtle body-shaming on their part. Being picky about the stuff you eat is equated to being disrespective and pompous.

 

[Nocebo]

I think the biggest thing people tend forget about when dealing over eating, is that the amount of food means they eat means nothing. It's the calorie surplus. Another thing is drinks. I'm willing to guess most people drink 500-1000 calroies a day easy.

I weighed 380. I would eat An Asiago Chesse bagel from panera, two double cheesebugers and a super size fry, a couple 32 oz cokes, and a Giant Ms. Field's Cookie slice with M&M's and icing on top. That's it.Not a lot of food. But WELLL over my caloric limit.

I lost my weight a few years ago and put on a ton of mass (muscle) to prevent as much loose skin as possible. I'm cutting right now (currently 5'8" 211 lbs, 33 inch waist) and i eat more now than i did then. But the food is better quality, keeps me full longer and not as calorie dense.

I don't know how big the bagel and the cookie are but that honestly sounds like a lot of food to me. I understand what you're getting at though. However why would someone even want to get two double cheese burgers, a coke and a super size fry? Why not a small fry a bottle of water and a burger with a single patty instead? They want to feel full or something right?

I feel people should be taught to reflect on themselves, their actions and their futures in schools. It seems to me people are inherently bad at considering the impact of their actions on their future selves. I'm personally not exempt from this either of course. But at the very least I don't let my dumb brain ruin my health.

 

[AnAnole]

A good half of studies are basically shit. http://www.collective-evolution.com...-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/

lol, collective evolution.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Collective_Evolution

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Don't you guys just buy coke zero, blah blah zero etc. I've always drunk that stuff.

I prefer the taste to regular coke. I watched Fed Up last night and it was sad to see Gary Taubes spread the myth of it causing weight gain and insulin response.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

lol, collective evolution.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Collective_Evolution

Seems suspect as hell, but were the quotes falsified?

 

[AnAnole]

I must ask a very important question that is prompted by how you phrased "dieting."

Did you remain on the diet that caused you to lose the weight even after losing the weight? To put it another way, did you "change your diet permanently," rather than "go on a diet?"

I ate how I did until I became unbearably hungry after losing weight and then started to binge. This is pretty normal for most obese people who lose a lot of weight, whatever the means. My intention was to always stay on the diet that I lost weight on.

 

[Opiate]

This is a horrible analogy and, honestly, insulting towards people are struggling to make ends meet. What on earth has happened to you, GAF?

Okay. Can you explain why?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I ate how I did until I became unbearably hungry after losing weight and then started to binge. This is pretty normal for most obese people who lose a lot of weight, whatever the means. My intention was to always stay on the diet that I lost weight on.

Interesting.

Did you binge on the same foods, just more, or did you binge by eating boxes of donuts or other terrible foods that you had avoided up until then?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I prefer the taste to regular coke. I watched Fed Up last night and it was sad to see Gary Taubes spread the myth of it causing weight gain and insulin response.

There's been nothing conclusive (as far as I know) on this but there have been studies that have suggested that diet soda can make your body more likely to overconsume because it is expecting calories when it detects sweetness but gets none of the calories is assumes it will get to go with it.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Which has nothing to do with ability to lose weight and everything to do with the human condition. This same pattern of wanting a lofty goal but not putting in the genuine effort to achieve that lofty goal is repeated throughout people's lives. The support structure for losing weight specifically is still not sufficient to make people A) understand the benefits of weight loss and B) understand how easy it is to get started with a LONG TERM weight loss strategy.

They think they need to drop 500 calories a day and run a 10 miles a week when in reality they only need to drop 100-200 calories a day with no additional physical activity. Many people don't understand that.

It's also structural. If you live in a walkable neighborhood, you'll be no doubt be leaner and healthier than someone who lives in the suburbs just because you'll be walking more, many times with no conscious decisions required from the person. People in walkable neighborhoods just walk because it's just the way it is.

Problem is that many western countries have primarily developed suburban style living and being highly dependent on the car in the last 50 to 70 years. Most activities that people now do is essentially walking to and from the automobile in the parking lot. Anglo-sphere countries(USA and the UK in particular) are especially keen on this type of development and are fatter as a result. You see this pattern in the USA where States with a lot of walkable cities tend to score higher on health and obesity metrics while those that have embraced car-dependent lifestyles are always the fattest ones (California vs Texas, for instance). You see the same problem creeping up on the developing countries now too, as suburban style housing becomes popular (and waist sizes have ballooned as a result).

Where people live makes a lot more influence on their waist sizes than most people realize and I suspect studies will come out in the future supporting this. Today, it is probably one of the least studied causes of obesity.

 

[SMattera]

Which has nothing to do with ability to lose weight and everything to do with the human condition. This same pattern of wanting a lofty goal but not putting in the genuine effort to achieve that lofty goal is repeated throughout people's lives. The support structure for losing weight specifically is still not sufficient to make people A) understand the benefits of weight loss and B) understand how easy it is to get started with a LONG TERM weight loss strategy.

They think they need to drop 500 calories a day and run a 10 miles a week when in reality they only need to drop 100-200 calories a day with no additional physical activity. Many people don't understand that.

This might work for someone who is 10, 20 maybe 30 lbs overweight. But for someone who is seriously obese -- 50, 100 lbs even more -- gradualism isn't going to cut it.

It's actually sort of hard to maintain that much extra weight when you stop and think about it from a normal perspective. People that are that overweight are eating in excess of 4,000 a calories, when they should be eating 2,000 or less. They're drinking a six pack a day, they're eating entire pizzas, they're binging regularly. Telling them to eat one less pizza slice a day isn't going to cut it. To achieve a healthy weight, they literally have to rebuild their entire diet. And to do that, they may have to rebuild their entire life to some extent. Ditching friends that aren't supportive. Not eating their family's cooking, etc.

 

[Littlefang]

If somebody doesn't enjoy eating healthy and exercising, they aren't going to do it or if they do, it will be immensely difficult for them to keep up. I don't know how such an issue would ever be solved really. For myself, I like to listen to music and podcasts or watch tv while I exercise to keep myself from growing bored or wanting to stop when I have a rough workout. But I honestly have no problem eating healthy because I enjoy those foods way more than I would something unhealthy. I'm sure it would be more difficult to stay at a healthy weight if I vastly preferred junk food. But it's not like we can force people to like healthy foods and hate junk food.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

There's been nothing conclusive (as far as I know) on this but there have been studies that have suggested that diet soda can make your body more likely to overconsume because it is expecting calories when it detects sweetness but gets none of the calories is assumes it will get to go with it.

That's a hypothesis but like you said nothing conclusive. It seems more like selection bias: More overweight people seem to consume diet drinks therefore it causes weight gain. Or just human psychology. An excuse to overconsume due to it being zero calories.

 

[AnAnole]

Interesting.

Did you binge on the same foods, just more, or did you binge by eating boxes of donuts or other terrible foods that you had avoided up until then?

I started binging on the same foods I was dieting on (despite what some low carbers will say, you can gain weight quite easily eating eggs, butter and meat), and I would gain quite a bit of weight, then I went back to eating whatever it started to feel futile. Mind you, I didn't always lose weight on low carb, although I did find it easier to initally lose weight eating that way. I also lost weight by strictly calorie counting the first time I dieted, and then I lost weight on a more balanced diet of "healthy foods" consiting of lean meats, whole grains, etc. Low carb was easier, which is what I eat after the surgery, but it was still nearly impossible to keep the weight off once I lost enough weight.

 

[marrec]

This might work for someone who is 10, 20 maybe 30 lbs overweight. But for someone who is seriously obese -- 50, 100 lbs even more -- gradualism isn't going to cut it.

It's actually sort of hard to maintain that much extra weight when you stop and think about it from a normal perspective. People that are that overweight are eating in excess of 4,000 a calories, when they should be eating 2,000 or less. They're drinking a six pack a day, they're eating entire pizzas, they're binging regularly. Telling them to eat one less pizza slice a day isn't going to cut it. To achieve a healthy weight, they literally have to rebuild their entire diet. And to do that, they may have to rebuild their entire life to some extent. Ditching friends that aren't supportive. Not eating their family's cooking, etc.

True, morbidly obese people need more drastic action to see significant results within their lifetime, but it's proportional to any normally obese person. However the structural and mental changes that happen when you a chronically morbidly obese may make that more difficult and so surgery may be the best option for those few people.

 

[Cagey]

Just a basic lack of empathy and a surplus of tone-deaf bootstrap advice.

Ah, the use of "lack of empathy" as a buzzword (or phrase, rather) to imply character failings from posters and dismiss their viewpoints or arguments as inferior. One of the worst parts of discussion on OT-GAF.

 

[marrec]

Ah, the use of "lack of empathy" as a buzzword to imply character failings. One of the worst parts of discussion on OT-GAF.

I'm super empathetic toward those struggling to lose weight. I did it, I grew up grossly overweight, I understand. My empathy doesn't make this study's conclusions or methodology any less shitty though.

 

[Kureransu]

I don't know how big the bagel and the cookie are but that honestly sounds like a lot of food to me. I understand what you're getting at though. However why would someone even want to get two double cheese burgers, a coke and a super size fry? Why not a small fry a bottle of water and a burger with a single patty instead? They want to feel full or something right?

Because all i ate was a bagel and giant cookie. That stuff doesn't really keep you full.

But i'll tell it to you another way. Sonic has a shake that is 2000 calories. ONE SHAKE, 2000 caloires. That's 85-110% of the ideal intake for people. in one freaking shake. And you know it's loaded with sugar. If got that every day, you'd pretty always be in a calorie surplus guaranteed. And don't be a short woman......

 

[jay]

Yeah it's always strange when someone picks up a random and parades it as fact because science. ignoring how the scientific process works and a good load of have all sorts of error, some that are pretty far from minor. These papers exist to be cross checked analysed etc. not to be presented as indisputable fact always, always check the methodology of anything you read.

I was responding to a self-study of one guy who lost weight. This study can have problems and it is still more valuable.

 

[samn]

Impose taxes on junk food, ban advertising and restrict placement within stores.

It should no longer be acceptable to place sweets and chocolate at kids eye height at the till.

Talk about freedom and responsibility all you like, but there's no other way to tackle the problem.

Also our governments should get out of bed with Kelloggs, Unilever and the like. It is amazing that they can partner in the name of promoting healthy eating.

 

[halfbeast]

told you guys, I can't lose weight! *eats another donut*

 

[vikki]

The clarification was much needed. Way to give no hope for anyone trying to get healthy.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Ah, the use of "lack of empathy" as a buzzword (or phrase, rather) to imply character failings from posters and dismiss their viewpoints or arguments as inferior. One of the worst parts of discussion on OT-GAF.

Obesity isn't really a character fault considering the environment we live in. It takes empathy to get people to lose weight.

 

[Opiate]

Ah, the use of "lack of empathy" as a buzzword (or phrase, rather) to imply character failings from posters and dismiss their viewpoints or arguments as inferior. One of the worst parts of discussion on OT-GAF.

Yes. It is absolutely true that many people lack empathy for those who are overweight, and really foolishly see obesity as something people are just choosing in greater and greater numbers, when that doesn't stand up to reason.

But saying that doesn't make the methodology of this particular study robust. It doesn't mean that any argument anyone ever puts forward that defends the obese is therefore appropriate.

I would put this in to a different general category than you do: I have found that many people assume that someone who attacks the reasoning/methodology is necessarily attacking the conclusion.

 

[marrec]

Impose taxes on junk food, ban advertising and restrict placement within stores.

It should no longer be acceptable to place sweets and chocolate at kids eye height at the till.

Talk about freedom and responsibility all you like, but there's no other way to tackle the problem.

This is a great way to get started but honestly I think we should be even more extreme in our regulation of the food industry.

If someone wants a brownie, they should have to make that shit from scratch, not buy it from the gas station.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I think the biggest thing people need to start to understand is that being hungry isn't a bad thing.

Right now it's around 3:00, I have dinner around 6:00.

Today I had an english muffin with 1 tbsp of penut butter, one tbsp of jam, 8oz of milk, some coffee for breakfast. Around 11 I had wheat bread with two slices of roast beef and a slice of cheese.

That's not that much food, and I'm pretty fucking hungry right now. But that's ok! It's not a bad thing to be hungry for a few hours a day. When I was a kid anytime I was hungry I would eat till I was full, and that's how I developed my horrible habits.

 

[JMDSO]

If someone wants a brownie, they should have to make that shit from scratch, not buy it from the gas station.

I get what you're saying, but doesn't that also apply to fast food and restaurants?

I think they need to be reigned in as well.