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[CloverCarr]

Painting people as racists or child killers by proxy because they have a different opinion on economic migration is pathetic. This is why Europe will continue to move to the right, because the left has gone totally crackers.

 

[DECK'ARD]

This would be more fitting, as it is essentially proof of nothing. It's either falling into a trope, or a poor choice of argument.



Haven't read enough of the thread to know either way, assuming it was made clear at some point, but just reading the back and forth fruitless arm-flailing of "No I'm not as shown by x" and "Yes you are as shown by x" is painful to read. You can't defeat someone's point by using something that's just as weak.

His posts and arguments have been dripping in it. "It feels like I'm in Syria!!!111!!" was just the shark-jump, and the black girlfriend was his scrambling for a life-preserver.

 

[MUnited83]

"I'm going to complain about how overwhelmed my country is while defending how other countries should be overwhelmed because fuck you, only me matters"

 

[jakonovski]

Painting people as racists or child killers by proxy because they have a different opinion on economic migration is pathetic. This is why Europe will continue to move to the right, because the left has gone totally crackers.

Yeah, that's one of the more inexplicable things. People hate immigrants so much they're prepared to give all their money away to the banks and 1%ers. Then they end up having to take in the immigrants anyway because in the modern world the rich and powerful are also cosmopolitan and like to feel like they're humanitarian. And the people continue to blame the left.

 

[TCRS]

And then calling anyone who refuses to be stuffed into the first camp outside the warzone an economic migrant. Economic migrants are people you can send back to where they came from. You can't send these people back to Syria and if you just pick another random country between Syria and you to drop them on that country is going to be pissed too.

Again: of all refugees only ~20 % are actually Syrians. Feeling sorry for those poor guys, they can't even get away from war without other hitching on the wagon and trying to get in as 'syrian war refugees'.

 

[Agram]

Ultimately we have a bunch of racists yelling "we're full" and "our culture will be diluted" before even taking anyone and yelling "go back to the previous country you were in" while that previous country is yelling "go to the next country".

The thing is refugees don't want to stay here.
They all plan to go to Germany and Nordic countries. In Croatia there is room for immigrants but they don't want to stay. There was a incident the first day when a group was placed in a hotel. They were treated well but they were yelling "Freedom" and threw rocks because they just want to leave.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Solution: close the borders. When Serbia and Macedonia have no choice to close theirs, maybe Greece will finally do something to enforce their waters.

Greece is kind of broke, so that would have to be a joined EU thing, also together with Turkey so human traffickers there are stopped at the source.

I'll ask the same question again regarding this: are you suggesting that Turkey and Lebanon should handle the potential 10 million plus refugees from Syria on their own? Because that's the only logical outcome if you're insisting that refugees need to stop in the first "safe" country they arrive in.

This is the worst refugee crisis since WW2, it needs a global or at the very least continental response because it will have much further reaching consequences than the neighboring countries no matter what we do. The refugees aren't going quietly waste away in massive camps the size of cities for years and years with no future, that's not human nature. They're going to keep coming no matter what. We might as well accept this and actually deal with it rather than deny reality, that way we might avoid this turning into an even worse humanitarian disaster.

Close the borders for now. Set up agreements within the EU and with other countries about manageable numbers per month or quarter, then get those people directly from the camps in Lebanon and Turkey. Then you can get those people here safely, the system doesn't get overwhelmed, human traffickers are not profiting - and refugees might use that money to pay for their own groceries and such for example -, and you don't have a majority of men coming over, but families with women and children as well.

Yeah, that's one of the more inexplicable things. People hate immigrants so much they're prepared to give all their money away to the banks and 1%ers. Then they end up having to take in the immigrants anyway because in the modern world the rich and powerful are also cosmopolitan and like to feel like they're humanitarian. And the people continue to blame the left.

We had a vote about bailing out banks? I can't remember that. I think a lot of people are very much against giving money to those institutions.

 

[shaki123]

Painting people as racists or child killers by proxy because they have a different opinion on economic migration is pathetic. This is why Europe will continue to move to the right, because the left has gone totally crackers.

Exactly. Europe is going right. Why? Because the people want it. They are fed up with the liberal crap the EU comes up with every day. Let's take care of our own citizens first. Let's take care of our own homeless people or elderly people first. They fucking build up this country and sometimes don't even get a shower each day. That is pathetic. Keep writing cheques to (corrupt) Greece. We will never get it back, but hey who gives a rat's ass? The EU wants it.

Things are changing in Europe. We are going right. And the great thing about it that this whole immigration fiasco is putting things in the highest gear. Good stuff. So actually, the more refugees the sooner we will get where we want to be. EU digging it's own grave.

"I'm going to complain about how overwhelmed my country is while defending how other countries should be overwhelmed because fuck you, only me matters"

I don't think posting private messages of other members is a good idea on a public forum. I'll leave it up to you and the mods.

 

[justjohn]

Ultimately we have a bunch of racists yelling "we're full" and "our culture will be diluted" before even taking anyone and yelling "go back to the previous country you were in" while that previous country is yelling "go to the next country". Nobody wants these refugees and everybody is passing the buck and imagining the problem stops the moment the refugees are out of their own country. If we distributed them properly the numbers would be manageable but we got a bunch of countries that just don't want to take any. Don't sign the declaration of human rights if you're not going to obey it!

And then calling anyone who refuses to be stuffed into the first camp outside the warzone an economic migrant. Economic migrants are people you can send back to where they came from. You can't send these people back to Syria and if you just pick another random country between Syria and you to drop them on that country is going to be pissed too.

Oh God shut up. You'll not silence people with legitimate concerns with racism accusations. No one here objects to their countries taking in people but their concerns are real and believe it or not it's what the overwhelming majority of people believe as well. Calling them evil racists will simply push people to the other side and in the end we'll all suffer for it.

 

[Tacitus_]

Yeah, that's one of the more inexplicable things. People hate immigrants so much they're prepared to give all their money away to the banks and 1%ers. Then they end up having to take in the immigrants anyway because in the modern world the rich and powerful are also cosmopolitan and like to feel like they're humanitarian. And the people continue to blame the left.

Why not finance the neighbouring countries instead of using the Dublin Agreement as toilet paper?

 

[Nivash]

Painting people as racists or child killers by proxy because they have a different opinion on economic migration is pathetic. This is why Europe will continue to move to the right, because the left has gone totally crackers.

When they're doing it for obviously racist reasons and when the consequence will be that children will die because of their "different opinion on economic migration" then yes, it's a perfectly apt description.

 

[jakonovski]

Nobody's got the balls to leave the EU. It's ridiculous talking about "the EU this and that". Guess what? It's your own national leaders perpetuating and benefiting from a broken EU. Not some shadowy cabal.

 

[MUnited83]

I don't think posting private messages of other members is a good idea. I'll leave it up to you.

I don't think trying to blackmail people to shut up is a good idea either, but way, we all have bad ideas!

 

[Mrmartel]

Again: of all refugees only ~20 % are actually Syrians. Feeling sorry for those poor guys, they can't even get away from war without other hitching on the wagon and trying to get in as 'syrian war refugees'.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, it seems like so many posters are blowing right over this fact.

As well as the immigrants coming from over the mediterranean certainly aren't Syrians. What would they be called? Refugees as well, or economic migrants. The recent shots of that migrant route are 100% men from all the pictures I've seen. Probably why the media isn't covering that path any more.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Most European countries participate in the UNHCR Resettlement and similar initiatives. It has it's flaws, but it is the best way at the moment of providing refugees a way into Europe. Also, it is possible to file for asylum at embassies of the respective country of choice. Should options like these be expended? Sure. As should the total intake of refugees by those channels.

However, I don't see how Europe has a moral obligation to accomodate for refugees and illegal immigrants that have passed through half a dozen secure countries to reach their "dream" destination. Not applying for Asylum in Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, not even Austria... that reeks of welfare maximization.

 

[shaki123]

I don't think trying to blackmail people to shut up is a good idea either, but way, we all have bad ideas!

Calling out people as being racist is not something you should think lightly about. Especially when the other party asks you to stop. Anyway. I'll just report it. Posting this PM is against the rules. Your call brother.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Again: of all refugees only ~20 % are actually Syrians. Feeling sorry for those poor guys, they can't even get away from war without other hitching on the wagon and trying to get in as 'syrian war refugees'.

Is this for real? Well that really does lend credence to the idea of these people being economic migrants.

 

[ClosingADoor]

When they're doing it for obviously racist reasons and when the consequence will be that children will die because of their "different opinion on economic migration" then yes, it's a perfectly apt description.

Why is it always the children immediately dying when people bring up concerns...

Is this for real? Well that really does lend credence to the idea of these people being economic migrants.

Looking at the stats from Q2 21% came from Syria.

Thing is, now that Germany said earlier they are taking in everyone from Syria, suddenly a lot of people lost their passports and are Syrian. A not insignificant share is probably not from Syria, but trying to get in that way.

 

[Moral Panic]

I'll ask the same question again regarding this: are you suggesting that Turkey and Lebanon should handle the potential 10 million plus refugees from Syria on their own? Because that's the only logical outcome if you're insisting that refugees need to stop in the first "safe" country they arrive in.

Yes. They should be registered as refugees there and then we can assist Turkey by taking some or providing aid/money to assist them. It shouldn't be a case of the the refugees picking what country fits their fancy.

 

[daniels]

I'll ask the same question again regarding this: are you suggesting that Turkey and Lebanon should handle the potential 10 million plus refugees from Syria on their own? Because that's the only logical outcome if you're insisting that refugees need to stop in the first "safe" country they arrive in.

I already answered this several times in this thread sooo again -_-°
A fair quota across all EU countries should happen and should even that not suffice O_O there is no other option left but to close off EU and concentrate all help locally and continue to take what is actually manageable and possible.

A fair quota would also mean no more pick and choose the promised lands while traveling through several save countries which at that point is economic migration anyway but countless people in here defend this pick and choose crap and think that it is ok even if it means millions choose always the same 2 or 3 countries.

 

[jakonovski]

Is this for real? Well that really does lend credence to the idea of these people being economic migrants.

It may come as a shock to you, but those that are determined to be economic migrants (ie. not persecuted in their home country) will eventually be sent back. It's just part of the hysteria that somehow everyone who comes knocking will be staying.

 

[ASIS]

You are crazy brother. Breaching human right treaties? If we want to close our borders, we close em. That's all there is to it. Also, polls in Germany and Holland have all said the same. So, what else do you want huh? I can understand you don't like it, but it is the goddamned truth. The truth is hard to accept eh? We have no hand in the death of these people. Don't feel guilty that the majority doesn't want them.

Also. You talk about war-refugees? Why the shit do they travel all the way to Holland? They passed Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland. Why are they in Holland or Germany for that matter. They pass all these great, great countries and still decide to go even further because "the war is so terrible".

This is not called a war refugee, but an economical refugee. They should be refused at all costs. Always.

Real refugees should go to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and all these other extremely rich countries. Same religion, same language, same culture, their responsibility.

What makes you think that they aren't doing anything?
And although we do have similar cultures, same language, and same religion, I really don't think that's the point.

 

[TCRS]

Is this for real? Well that really does lend credence to the idea of these people being economic migrants.

official eurostat figures:

 

[ClosingADoor]

It may come as a shock to you, but those that are determined to be economic migrants (ie. not persecuted in their home country) will eventually be sent back. It's just part of the hysteria that somehow everyone who comes knocking will be staying.

There is a big problem with it taking sometimes years for these people to be sent back, while the country is making a lot of costs for them. When you have them taking the place of actual refugees who do need the help, I think it is better to get those refugees directly from Turkey and Lebanon instead of having them walk over and others blend in with them. Isn't that a good middle ground between just opening all borders and not taking in anyone at all?

 

[jakonovski]

Thing is, now that Germany said earlier they are taking in everyone from Syria, suddenly a lot of people lost their passports and are Syrian. A not insignificant share is probably not from Syria, but trying to get in that way.

You see that big block of grey for "other"? Yeah.

 

[Mrmartel]

It may come as a shock to you, but those that are determined to be economic migrants (ie. not persecuted in their home country) will eventually be sent back. It's just part of the hysteria that somehow everyone who comes knocking will be staying.

How do you know this?

When have economic migrants ever been sent back? The Turks that went to Germany in the 50s and 60s are still there.

 

[leatherhat]

Yeah, that's one of the more inexplicable things. People hate immigrants so much they're prepared to give all their money away to the banks and 1%ers. Then they end up having to take in the immigrants anyway because in the modern world the rich and powerful are also cosmopolitan and like to feel like they're humanitarian. And the people continue to blame the left.

That's just wrong, almost every right wing group in Europe is pro social welfare and concerned, rightly, about the effects of immigration on it. The outlier I can think of is ukip which is a more libertarian party.

 

[justjohn]

It may come as a shock to you, but those that are determined to be economic migrants (ie. not persecuted in their home country) will eventually be sent back. It's just part of the hysteria that somehow everyone who comes knocking will be staying.

It may come as a shock to you but the majority do not get sent back. They disappear into the system and get lost forever.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You see that big block of grey for "other"? Yeah.

Those are Q2 stats, Germany opened their borders in august like that if I remember correctly. We'll have to wait for the new ones there.

 

[justjohn]

How do you know this?

When have economic migrants ever been sent back? The Turks that went to Germany in the 50s and 60s are still there.

We're talking about illegal immigrants not legal economic migrants. Those Turks as far as I'm aware were brought to Germany legally.

 

[jakonovski]

That's just wrong, almost every right wing group in Europe is pro social welfare and concerned, rightly, about the effects of immigration on it. The outlier I can think of is ukip which is a more libertarian party.

They'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Already happened here. They did an 180 on everything, even immigration. A few minister's posts for the big dogs was enough. The leather back seat of an Audi S8 feels so NICE.

 

[TCRS]

You see that big block of grey for "other"? Yeah.

you do know that losing papers is the oldest trick in the asylum system right? they know they most probably don't have a legitimate case so they lose papers and suddenly the country of origin can't be determined and even if it is they can't be sent back because the country of origin won't accept them back without papers.

 

[jakonovski]

It may come as a shock to you but the majority do not get sent back. They disappear into the system and get lost forever.

Citation needed?

 

[shaki123]

They'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Already happened here. They did an 180 on everything, even immigration. A few minister's posts for the big dogs was enough. The leather back seat of an Audi S8 feels so NICE.

If the country keeps taking in refugees, he might have to give up his Audi altogether. Lol.

 

[Mrmartel]

Citation needed?

lol, you first. I would like to know if there are actually any studies/facts/article on this. But I've never seen anything in recent times of the mass movement of refugees back to their home countries

 

[Nivash]

Yes. They should be registered as refugees there and then we can assist Turkey by taking some or providing aid/money to assist them. It shouldn't be a case of the the refugees picking what country fits their fancy.

I already answered this several times in this thread sooo again -_-°
A fair quota across all EU countries should happen and should even that not suffice O_O there is no other option left but to close off EU and concentrate all help locally and continue to take what is actually manageable and possible.

A fair quota would also mean no more pick and choose the promised lands while traveling through several save countries which at that point is economic migration anyway but countless people in defend this pick and choose crap and think that it is ok even if it means millions choose always the same 2 or 3 countries.

A universal quota system is what Germany, Sweden and other nations are proposing anyway, no one likes the current situation. The problem is the UK and other countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, who would rather we close the borders and take in no more than a few thousand at most. That's not a "fair quota". A fair quota would mean accepting millions. I somewhat doubt that's what you had in mind, but anything else would put incredible strain on Syria's neighbors and lead to a humanitarian disaster in the refugee camps. You can't just pay for the problem to go away. Turkey can't keep millions housed in tent cities forever.

The confusing thing about this debate is that the people opposed to accepting huge numbers of refugees still insist on the universal approach, which is pushed in the EU by countries currently accepting huge numbers of refugees while it is opposed by countries said people otherwise agree with, the countries opposed to accepting huge numbers of refugees. I can only conclude you don't really understand what "fair quotas" in this context means. If you did you wouldn't spend so much time complaining about them "picking and choosing" because I honestly can't imagine anyone in favor of accepting even more refugees would actually be so upset about that completely irrelevant aspect of this.

 

[Marauder Shields]

image

Thanks for the link. Those are definitely interesting numbers.

 

[leatherhat]

They'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Already happened here. They did an 180 on everything, even immigration. A few minister's posts for the big dogs was enough. The leather back seat of an Audi S8 feels so NICE.

Where is "here"?

 

[jakonovski]

Where is "here"?

Glorious Banana Republic of Finland.

 

[leatherhat]

Glorious Banana Republic of Finland.

I don't know much about Finnish politics so I can't comment.

 

[jakonovski]

lol, you first. I would like to know if there are actually any studies/facts/article on this. But I've never seen anything in recent times of the mass movement of refugees back to their home countries

The standard procedure on rejected asylum status is to send the person back. If someone claims that the government doesn't actually send them back ever, well, that does require a source.

 

[Lonely1]

Solution: close the borders. When Serbia and Macedonia have no choice to close theirs, maybe Greece will finally do something to enforce their waters.

How cute. Didn't worked for the Chinese 2000 years ago, won't work now.

 

[Tacitus_]

I don't know much about Finnish politics so I can't comment.

The tldr version is: populists find themselves in government and actually have to govern instead of whining from the sidelines, which leads to turning back on their election statements

The standard procedure on rejected asylum status is to send the person back. If someone claims that the government doesn't actually send them back ever, well, that does require a source.

The question becomes send them back where? No country of entry since they weren't registered beforehand and they won't tell you their country of origin.

 

[Mrmartel]

The standard procedure on rejected asylum status is to send the person back. If someone claims that the government doesn't actually send them back ever, well, that does require a source.

and this standard procedure is carried through with? and applied?

Honestly do you have anything to back this up with? Not necessarily with this current migration even, but with fairly recent previous migrations. Such as the Balkans wars. Did any of them return? because if they didn't I can't see anyone from sub Saharan Africa being sent back, ever.

 

[jakonovski]

The question becomes send them back where? No country of entry since they weren't registered beforehand and they won't tell you their country of origin.

Sure but that wasn't the argument presented here.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Nobody's got the balls to leave the EU. It's ridiculous talking about "the EU this and that". Guess what? It's your own national leaders perpetuating and benefiting from a broken EU. Not some shadowy cabal.

Hmm, we'll see. There's a referendum in the UK before 2017. I used to think 'remain' was a sure thing, but now I'm not so sure.

Edit:

Calling out people as being racist is not something you should think lightly about. Especially when the other party asks you to stop. Anyway. I'll just report it. Posting this PM is against the rules. Your call brother.

I don't think you're a racist at all, but I do like that you've started putting 'brother' in all your posts. I read them in Hulk Hogan's voice! :-D

 

[ClosingADoor]

The standard procedure on rejected asylum status is to send the person back. If someone claims that the government doesn't actually send them back ever, well, that does require a source.

Over here in Holland it seems almost a third of rejected immigrants are not being sent away. They don't show up and continue living here illegally. That's from last year according to the head of the organisation in charge of their return. http://www.eo.nl/ditisdedag/radio/item/uitzetten-asielzoekers-lukt-nauwelijks/

 

[Kinky John]

Let's take care of our own citizens first. Let's take care of our own homeless people or elderly people first.

I'm completely clueless about politics in the Netherlands. Do right-wing parties have a history of improving the lives of homeless and elderly there?

 

[Tacitus_]

Sure but that wasn't the argument presented here.

Well where will the refused people who don't have papers be sent?

 

[shaki123]

Hmm, we'll see. There's a referendum in the UK before 2017. I used to think 'remain' was a sure thing, but now I'm not so sure.

If things go like they are now, next year in Holland we will have totally new leadership. Leadership that is very much against the EU and the Schengen crap. Most probably things will change. France and Germany are going is the same direction.

I'm completely clueless about politics in the Netherlands. Do right-wing parties have a history of improving the lives of homeless and elderly there?

Yes, see above. Party is called the PVV and is the only party, including left, that thinks like this. They are leading the polls by a very huge margin.