Skull Face proved himself too dumb to live so he died.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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Skull Face proved himself too dumb to live so he died.
Almost 400 pages. Thread's served its purpose.
Here's to you~
Big Boss is pathetic chump, him and Strangelove should've formed a support group.
Roni
Gold Member
Sorry to differ, but you're the one who can't see not only that being a hero in this game is delusional and subjective. Even if you go 'heroic' you still commit somewhat evil deeds.
Not to mention there are very few rewards to playing Heroicly, nothing in the game ever screams in your face you should fill up that meter, it's a choice. But there is still only one canonical outcome.
And I haven't been moving any goals. I have stated from the start Heroism is just a name for a meter that indicates how hardcore you are as a player and that it has no direct conflict with Demon Points other than the standard pussyfooting game Devs have to abide by.
Berserker976
Member
Sure, but you realize how stupid it is to go from "we're having issues getting this Metal Gear fully functional," straight to "whatever, let's just let this magical psychic kid we just met control it, he seems trustworthy," in a matter of a few weeks, right?
You gain heroism for saving children, animals, wounded soliders, prisoners, disarming nukes etc. The higher heroism the better volunteers you get. You lose heroism for building nukes, letting prisoners dies, and killing animals.
How are you going to say that "heroism" isn't actually doing heroic deeds in the game? You're encouraged to do all these things.
And the canonical outcome that this game is informing you of is that Big Boss (or "Venom Snake" since you tried to make the point that Venom isn't a hero) saved the world twice and succeeded in bringing complete nuclear disarmament in the game that was going to show him coming full circle into becoming a villain. Him shooting some limbs off of Skull Face doesn't make him a villain.
I'm calling them like I'm seeing them here - that being a pretty poor connective thread that brings it together with the guy we know in the MSX games; hence why the Big Boss story should have stopped being expanded upon after Portable Ops.
The Silver
Member
Paz and Chico aren't insane all powerful freaks of nature that could kill you with a thought and ruin your plans in one fell swoop, the risk isn't comparable.
He spends his time torturing and breaking them down piece by piece until there's nothing left, and he just wanted info, not for them to start working for him. Not so with Mantis who just starts following him around one day and Skullface then probably reads a file on the kid and is all "cool breh, I can totally trust you". Then he gets burned cause Mantis aint loyal.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Ehhhh, wasn't Sahalanthropus kind of a ruse anyway? Like...they were gonna use it to scare people into buying their new nukes, and THOSE were the real meat of the plan? For that purpose, I suppose they really only had to make people THINK it worked.
Still super dumb to rely on unstable anger-fueled adolescent with godlike powers though, for sure.
Not only could Huey not figure out how to fix it but he was stalling so he could jump ship to Diamond Dogs, which Skull Face was informed about.
Mantis was most likely the back up plan. The only other option for Skull Face would have been to delay his plans indefinitely.
Roni
Gold Member
Because it's more about how much more difficult/grindy those actions are in gameplay than how good they look. It's about gameplay, not its dressing.
Kojima designed all the game play elements around it's themes hence the heroism points in the first place. If you don't think Kojima is a designer that puts thought into the "dressing" as you put it, then you haven't been paying a lot of attention.
Roni
Gold Member
Wrong, the world was never rid of Nukes, that's the thing: this games true ending is the "bad" ending.
SJRB
Gold Member
The Mantis timeline during TTP is pretty foggy anyway.
Big Boss' awakening and subsequent lust for revenge"activates" Mantis, resulting in the plane that was transporting him crashing. He then tapped into a comatose Volgin's lust for revenge and makes his way all the way to Cyprus with Volgin as the Man on Fire [they ride Volgin's fire unicorn there I suppose].
Then, after the hospital scene he somehow ends up with Skull Face who somehow trains him / uses him to control Sahelanthropus in mere days [the Honey Bee mission is where we first see Sahelanthropus in action], while in the meantime using Mantis to use the Man on Fire as a tool [Skull Face uses Man on Fire to burn down the Devil's House].
Then Mantis gets triggered by Eli, resulting in him making the Man on Fire commit suicide [I suppose?].
The levels of LUST FOR REVENGE are:
- Eli - SSJ4 Goku
- Skull Face - Super Vegetto
- Man on Fire - Majin Vegeta
- Big Boss - SSJ2 Gohan during Cell Saga
- Kaz - Yamcha
You've completely lost me.
The true ending is a "bad" ending now? What.
Game makes the point that nukes were still being developed and that Diamond Dogs were going to be on watch for their resurgence. It fits perfectly fine into an open ending.
Roni
Gold Member
Game gives you a choice of pursuing Nukes or disarming them. Canonical one is pursuing them. Watch the ending again and tell me in what demon stage Venom is when he looks at the mirror one last time before smashing it.
The good ending of nuclear disarmament is there, but it's meta - it's a way of Kojima saying we can have an impact on the world if we act at the right time. We can be better than what Venom really was.
In the end, Solid Snake kills Venom after destroying the Nuclear equipped Metal Gear TX-55.
There are two Venoms in the mirror after the smash, and the camera follows the "good" one. Take that directorial decision as you will.
petethepanda
Member
Going through a backlog of links now that I've finished. Just watched the abandoned Eli stuff. It looks like it could have been a cool sequence, but it also seems like it would have been kind of out of place (though I suppose the story already feels disjointed as hell). Either way, it would have been great to have something like that to play towards the end.
Roni
Gold Member
I already did, he comes to terms with who he is and stops seeing himself as a demon for his actions.
In his mind, everything is justified...
NoctisVsStar
Member
Interesting how venom had a lust for revenge during the escape scene with
Ocelot. I noticed mantis had a horn.
Ocelot. I noticed mantis had a horn.
Serpens007
Member
Yeah, but it was Venom who was "heroic" while Big Boss was hiding building his nation. He became a "demon". A huge Dick.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
My impression was that it was a sort of perception versus reality that he's become a demon (or feels like others view him as a demon) but he still believes that he isn't...
So, the smirk was I'm Big Boss and the punch was I'm not a demon.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Before we go, check for your name on the wall of shame!
Top 15, wooooo!
Shadow_Lord
Member
Title?
And the nuclear disarmament has Big Boss monologuing about how he needs to drive out the demon inside of him.
So really, nothing about it suggests it's a "non-canon" ending. Ocelot even says that "upholding a nuke free world" would be harder than reaching disarmament.
My suggestion earlier
SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Three has come to
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Didn't think of this for some reason. I think this is a really fair response.
If we're suggesting titles, once again: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | [EXTREME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
RE: dismembering Skull Face:
Kaz took the lead on that one, if you don't pull the trigger yourself. He guides Venom's hand and compels Venom to shoot. But it's kind of a moot point since the whole idea is Venom changes from that point forward. After Skull Face is dead, he sees his "ghost" on Mother Base. And from Paz's "ghost" he rethinks the line of revenge altogether. "You can kill Skull Face, murder Huey, slaughter Zero... Burn the whole world down, and it still won't bring me back. Me, or any of the dead. ... There's more to remember than hatred and rage." And I think that is meant to inform his arc, showing a change in him.
Venom was always slow to anger from the start. Upon rescuing Kaz he says to focus on the future rather than dwelling on the past. Upon sparing Quiet, he finds himself repeatedly at odds with Kaz's bloodlust. Things like this add up to paint Venom as a rather chill dude. Kaz thrives on anger, but it just seems to suck the wind out of Venom. When Venom does something vengeful or inhumane, it's usually his passive personality acquiescing to his assertive subcommanders. Although he does stand up to them more and more.
Kaz took the lead on that one, if you don't pull the trigger yourself. He guides Venom's hand and compels Venom to shoot. But it's kind of a moot point since the whole idea is Venom changes from that point forward. After Skull Face is dead, he sees his "ghost" on Mother Base. And from Paz's "ghost" he rethinks the line of revenge altogether. "You can kill Skull Face, murder Huey, slaughter Zero... Burn the whole world down, and it still won't bring me back. Me, or any of the dead. ... There's more to remember than hatred and rage." And I think that is meant to inform his arc, showing a change in him.
Venom was always slow to anger from the start. Upon rescuing Kaz he says to focus on the future rather than dwelling on the past. Upon sparing Quiet, he finds himself repeatedly at odds with Kaz's bloodlust. Things like this add up to paint Venom as a rather chill dude. Kaz thrives on anger, but it just seems to suck the wind out of Venom. When Venom does something vengeful or inhumane, it's usually his passive personality acquiescing to his assertive subcommanders. Although he does stand up to them more and more.
SPOILER THREAD: Such a lust for conclusion, EXTHREEEEEEEEEME
Nintendoga
Member
I like the one from before
SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread [EXTREME] | Such a lust for a conclusion, T-WHOOOOO
KOMANI
KOMANI
I really need a lifeBefore we go, check for your name on the wall of shame!
Berserker976
Member
But you can shoot Skull Face yourself. Multiple times. Just to make him suffer. And even when Kaz takes over, you're still the one pulling the trigger, and reloading all fancy-like.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I'm glad I can look at the Wall of Shame and see I'm not too far up at all haha.
Yes, you can. But you can also shoot Quiet, negating the existence of Mission 45 and all her related subplots altogether. Are they not canon?
Either way, the point is how he feels afterward, and how that informs his actions going forward. He grows.
Berserker976
Member
Well by that logic all the Paz stuff should be ignored too, since it's all optional as well
Haunted
Member
Everyone with more than 75 posts needs to check themselves before they wreck themselves.Before we go, check for your name on the wall of shame!
No, I'm saying it's obvious which way follows the larger structure.Well by that logic all the Paz stuff should be ignored too, since it's all optional as well
Well by that logic all the Paz stuff should be ignored too, since it's all optional as well
I think it's safe to say that we can ignore it either way.
I mostly post at work to pass time -_-
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
I maintain my theory that Venom's hypnotism forced him to side with BB.
Journalist here. I post between interviews and writing stories.
These words, they flow from me like melted butter.
lol, good stuff.
This thread and the spoiler thread before it are the most posts I've done in a single thread. It's going to happen again, I can feel it.
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