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Does too much fanservice in games bother you?
- Thread starter Doosi
- Start date
Battlechili
Banned
I'm not sure I understand; how is that troubling? Could you elaborate, please?
gone
nephilimdj
Member
I feel like it's best if it's optional in most cases like the bikinis in tales of symphonia, but I have to say the echhi in some games like Senran Kagura: Bon Appetit is hilarious because it's so over the top.
Ohmygoditsjrod
Banned
That's because the people who are against it say shit like basement dwellers or masterbating to their vita games.
They think that people who enjoy fanservice have to whip their dick out as soon as a scene happens.
writeandwrong
Neo Member
Games specifically designed to be "fanservice games", I actually don't have much of a problem with. I'll never really understand it, but they're their own little niche in the wide world of electronic entertainment and their existence doesn't really have an impact on my gaming experience.
When it comes to that "fanservice" being shoved into more mainstream games in an exploitative and degrading manner, that's another story. Though thankfully I can't think of too many examples of that in recent times aside from Quiet in MGS V.
When it comes to that "fanservice" being shoved into more mainstream games in an exploitative and degrading manner, that's another story. Though thankfully I can't think of too many examples of that in recent times aside from Quiet in MGS V.
poodaddy
Member
And when you're playing a game in which all women are scantily clad and jiggling all over the place for no reason other than titillation in front of her, do you not think that makes her feel out of place or strange, or even perhaps cheapens her perceived worth as a person? I know that's how they make my wife feel. Everyone is very different though. I wouldn't presume to imagine that your relationship carries similar dynamics to my marriage, just a question in passing meant to elicit further discussion and rumination. My quick rule of thumb for this type of thing is that I don't want to see women portrayed in a game, (that is of a serious nature), in any way that my wife would not want to be portrayed; and this is made even more important for me in that I want my daughter to love video games as much as I do, but I don't want her to gain a warped perspective on what men, (or women), expect of women in modern society. I'd rather my daughter play a video game and feel empowered by the women she's controlling, as opposed to feeling like she's controlling a super powered stripping demi god that was purely designed to appeal to the basest instincts of a teenage male demographic.
In my opinion, the issue isn't the mere existence of fan service filled JRPGs/visual novels/etc. Disgaea came out in the west over 10 years ago, had its share of fan service, and handled it well. The game's entire plot was heavily centered around parodying other games and anime, so all of that stuff fit in. The bath scenes and beach scenes in the modern Persona games are super cheesy, but again it's self aware fan service, and fits in with the high school theme. I'm pretty sure you could find the same sort of scenes in the TGIF shows from the 80s and 90s.
The issue is that we are getting to the point where it's quite hard to buy games without fan service in some genres. And most of the time there is no real justification for it. It's mainly there out of a "load it full of tits and ass so the Otaku crowd will eat it up" mentality.
You mention other media, but if I am watching something like Lord of the Rings, I can be reasonably assured that I am not going to randomly see Arwen or one of the other major female characters dressed like this:
LOTR is a serious fantasy story, and that sort of thing would be completely out of place.
If I was to pick up a random JRPG published in the last 5 or so years, my chances would be much better than even that at least one female party member was garbed in something similar. Not only that, the rest of the sensibly dressed characters in the game will act like that is the most natural thing in the world to wear on a world spanning adventure. The plot will go on every bit as seriously as Lord of the Rings, but try to stick in jiggling tits, upskirts, and ass shots in as many cut scenes and victory screens as possible.
I have a little girl, who I would like to eventually play JRPGs with. However, what is she going to take from the genre if a large number of the female characters are dressed in micro skirts, bikinis, hot pants, or fetish gear while the boys wear mostly suitable (if sometimes goofy looking) clothing?
If it was just Hyperdimension Neptunia, or Disgaea, or similar titles it would be fine. I would just play something else if I wasn't looking for T&A and crude humor. Those games definitely have their place. My issue comes from the fact that that sort of stuff is seeping into series that 10-15 years ago were pretty innocuous.
It's kinda funny when you think about the continuity with Last Hope being the prequel to the series and everything after characters start wearing more and more clothes. Till the End of Time, everyone is just about covered up and battle ready in a serious sci-fi adventure.
My girlfriend knows that they're not real and it doesn't bother her. I don't really play games with realistic fanservice. I play games with over the top anime bullshit fanservice, precisely because it isn't realistic, and she understands that. Hell, we play Skullgirls together sometimes, and we'll probably play SFV together too.
Editing out because it's disrespectful I guess.
People play games without their dicks out?
This is the first I've heard of this.
petethepanda
Member
Yep. Bugs me in anime, too. If I want porn I'll go watch porn.
(Note: Fanservice does not equal sexiness. Characters being sexy is fine. I think for me it's largely a question of how the camera treats it.)
(Note: Fanservice does not equal sexiness. Characters being sexy is fine. I think for me it's largely a question of how the camera treats it.)
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Okay? I mean is this really a problem a foreign market isn't going to pander to you, right?
Does Atelier have this stuff? I mean they dress ridiculously but I don't remember a lot of lingering upskirt shots. I'm look at a list and guessing here. Mugen Souls I guess has this stuff? Kingdom Hearts doesn't probably, right? I'm wracking my brain here. The Witch and the Hundred Knight? Fairy Fencer F? These are all games I've heard about but not played because I don't have the time. Is this all because of Star Ocean and FFXV? Like honestly, do you really think 90% of recent JRPGs have this stuff? Like lingering upskirts and shit like that. Hell even Lunar had Onsen scenes. Are you sure you're not just mentioning 'upskirts' for effect because you're made about Cindy in FFXV and the outfits in Star Ocean 5?
I dunno, sounds like a tough situation that foreign national game developers shouldn't have to think about and probably won't.
I guess in short I distrust this statement that over the last 5 years all JRPGs have turned into Neptunia, it seems more like you're sour over FFXV and Star Ocean 5 and using your daughter to demonstrate why it's some massively damaging thing.
kuroneko0509
Member
In my opinion, the issue isn't the mere existence of fan service filled JRPGs/visual novels/etc. Disgaea came out in the west over 10 years ago, had its share of fan service, and handled it well. The game's entire plot was heavily centered around parodying other games and anime, so all of that stuff fit in. The bath scenes and beach scenes in the modern Persona games are super cheesy, but again it's self aware fan service, and fits in with the high school theme. I'm pretty sure you could find the same sort of scenes in the TGIF shows from the 80s and 90s.
The issue is that we are getting to the point where it's quite hard to buy games without fan service in some genres. And most of the time there is no real justification for it. It's mainly there out of a "load it full of tits and ass so the Otaku crowd will eat it up" mentality.
You mention other media, but if I am watching something like Lord of the Rings, I can be reasonably assured that I am not going to randomly see Arwen or one of the other major female characters dressed like this:
LOTR is a serious fantasy story, and that sort of thing would be completely out of place.
If I was to pick up a random JRPG published in the last 5 or so years, my chances would be much better than even that at least one female party member was garbed in something similar. Not only that, the rest of the sensibly dressed characters in the game will act like that is the most natural thing in the world to wear on a world spanning adventure. The plot will go on every bit as seriously as Lord of the Rings, but try to stick in jiggling tits, upskirts, and ass shots in as many cut scenes and victory screens as possible.
I have a little girl, who I would like to eventually play JRPGs with. However, what is she going to take from the genre if a large number of the female characters are dressed in micro skirts, bikinis, hot pants, or fetish gear while the boys wear mostly suitable (if sometimes goofy looking) clothing?
If it was just Hyperdimension Neptunia, or Disgaea, or similar titles it would be fine. I would just play something else if I wasn't looking for T&A and crude humor. Those games definitely have their place. My issue comes from the fact that that sort of stuff is seeping into series that 10-15 years ago were pretty innocuous.
Kind of curious, what if your daughter ends up getting into anime and everything Japanese and going to conventions? Or would you do your best not to allow that?
poodaddy
Member
All of this literally describes me to a t.
writeandwrong
Neo Member
This is the obvious problem with referring to it as "fanservice", it assumes that all fans want it. I really loved Wolfenstein: The New Order, but if the sequel adds "fanservice" in the form of a bunch of scenes set in Nazi strip clubs, I as a fan will not be serviced.
Well I'm on ipad so don't expect a perfect post, shitty virtual keyboard.
What I mean is that reading some people you would think that the players who don't actively dislike fan service are, if not totally perverted, at least benefiting from a real sexual stimulation when watching tits and asses. I dare to think that people that enjoy this type of content are just, how to say it, simply cool with these things. I mean a man that likes to see some skin is not automatically a deviant in my mind, he likes lewd content, that's all.
Badly exlained but you get it I hope.
What I find troubling is the distorted image that seems to be forged in the anti fan service people, like the people who don't hate lewd content are jerking off to it or who knows what. I don't want to attack people as everybody is free to think what they want, but come on, is it like watching porn ? Come onnnnnn...
oh whoops, I think I misunderstood your original post
poodaddy
Member
Now see, I liked your post as it was well worded and respectful, but then there was the end. I was straight up respectful in my question and made it clear that I was honestly just trying to elicit further discussion and thought on the matter, and you accuse me of trying to impose my view on others. Why do you have to bring it to that realm? I was asking a question, and I was very respectful and honest with you, and you managed to give me a fairly well worded response that was literally turned into nothing more than an asshole comment by the last sentence. Well done. Oh and my wife and I play Skullgirls together quite often as well, but even Lab Zero game obviously thought little of the fan service in that game as they made changes to some of the sprites during certain animations a few months ago to reduce the amount of needless panty shots and what not. Food for thought.
Dunno how that made it seem like an asshole post, but alright. Also, They only changed like 4 frames. On the ONLY 2 characters they changed, they only changed like one pantyshot each, and those 2 characters still have loads of them.
burn this down
Banned
EDIT: I'm talking about the "T n' A" kinda fanservice
I only really like fanservice if the game is fully aware of what it's doing and having fun with it (see Bayonetta). Otherwise it's just kinda distracting or discomforting.
Like, I don't like the fanservice-y gear in Xenoblade because it sucks me out of the experience and makes it impossible to take cutscenes somewhat seriously. But I like the way it's presented in say Bayonetta or (if I can take a step back from gaming) Kill la Kill because it knows what it's doing and how absurd it can get, and just has fun with the concept. It's so obviously tongue-in-cheek I can't help but feel that pushing it to new places is part of the joke. It's all in the way it's presented.
I only really like fanservice if the game is fully aware of what it's doing and having fun with it (see Bayonetta). Otherwise it's just kinda distracting or discomforting.
Like, I don't like the fanservice-y gear in Xenoblade because it sucks me out of the experience and makes it impossible to take cutscenes somewhat seriously. But I like the way it's presented in say Bayonetta or (if I can take a step back from gaming) Kill la Kill because it knows what it's doing and how absurd it can get, and just has fun with the concept. It's so obviously tongue-in-cheek I can't help but feel that pushing it to new places is part of the joke. It's all in the way it's presented.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Well there's the last word on fan service.
I edited out that snark but I'll follow up. It's your whole reply. You just come off real condescending. "Well I don't know about your relationship but I don't like to do things that make my daughter and wife matter less as human beings, ymmv"
DR2K
Banned
I never saw the point in it on a personal level. It's just a cheap way of showing off their panties. It might have some application game play wise, but it doesn't need to exist like that.
Yeah, this is what I meant when I said don't impose your views on others. I wasn't triyng to be mean, it just seemed like you thought your way was superior, and I didn't agree.
It depends on what kind of fanservice it is. Generally I have no problem with women dressed in very little clothing in my games. (I on the other hand really don't want to see guys in scantly clad clothing, even though I am a lady.) However, I very much dislike and find it distasteful with games that have camera angles that focuses in on breasts and such. Also, it bothers to me when all the female characters fall in love with the main male character as storyline progress. Note that games where the player can choose to romance multiple female characters and choose to romance them all don't fall into this category and do not bother me. Since that's a player choice and effort needs to be done by the players and just one of the possibilities the game allows.
...I mean, it has fanservice in the form of multiple sex scenes...
poodaddy
Member
I appreciate your edit but I don't care for your attitude towards my parenting. I'm honestly curious as to how it's condescending to want those things for my daughter. I was just making my point and explaining my position and you're literally going to insult me for wanting my daughter to take herself seriously and not see her gender being insulted by a medium she loves. You're talking to someone who taught their daughter to perform a shoryuken at the age of 3, this kid loves gaming man, and I just want her to feel like she's in on every joke, reference, and mechanic that the boys are in on. I don't ever want her to ever feel like she's the "weaker" sex or even the "fairer" sex; I want her to feel like she's getting the same thing out of playing video games that I do, and I honestly don't believe that a game can achieve that level of parity while containing gratuitous amounts of sexual fan service. I can appreciate that you see things differently than me, but don't insult me or what I want for my daughter bro; I would never do that to you no matter how you felt on any subject.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Isn't it two? Why people gotta write multiple for the number after one?
Let me just say that I quite like the feedback diversity on this topic.
Because multiple literally means more than one.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Your post was condescending to the person you're responding to, I wasn't talking about your parenting I was talking about the way you wrote your post. Like ... you're just blogging about what a great parent you are at me for the rest of this post. Can you get your head in this for a second, please?
Yeah I dunno it always seems like people try to make things seem bigger than they are. "My feed is FULL OF MENTIONS" and the feed actually has one mention. The game has two unnecessary sex scenes, I guess they're fan service but I still haven't found a single person who thought they were anything but embarrassing and out of place.
autoduelist
Member
And if so, that only shows that people don't judge games for stuff like that -- they throw money at them. Just like people throw money at lots of risque things. If we're going to judge by Game of War commercials, then fan service isn't 'holding gaming back', it's expanding the gaming base and making mega-bank in the process.
Again, the niche games people are complaining about are niche games. Even most people who game regularly don't know about them. And to even the people that have heard about them, it's a game name and maybe a cover or a couple screenshots. Big deal.
Meanwhile, 50 Shades of Grey tear up the charts, teenagers posing in bikinis are huge hits on social media, and anybody can dial up hardcore porn in 3 seconds on the internet. Fanservice in games isn't holding gaming back -- it's not even a footnote in the history of gaming.
If you want gaming to be taken seriously as a medium, you don't try to remove the risque - you simply prove that it's a viable medium by putting out masterpieces. That's what happened when Miller's Dark Knight Returns took the critics and mainstream by storm in 1986. And then once the critics eyes were opened, other previous works and newer works were finally ready to be noticed. And now 30 years later, you can't throw a stone without seeing the influence of comics on every other medium -- massive hits like The Walking Dead, etc, etc. Nobody gives two shits if you can also get swimsuit comic books or tentacle porn graphic novels - just like nobody judges Citizen Kane because you can also go rent porn flicks.
Nothing is holding back gaming other than the medium itself - balancing the complexity of interactive storytelling, technological merit, etc. Certainly not boob pixels.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Actually, multiple/several implies more than two, while couple is the typical numerical implication for two.
/nerd
poodaddy
Member
Once again I was, (in a very respectful manner mind you), responding to the issue and making my point clear on how I feel about fan service and it's detriments to the medium for women and why I feel that way, but I don't think you can understand that at all; in fact I don't think you can understand anything about manners or parenting at all. I think you're just genuinely being rude at this point and that you're an extremely disrespectful and disingenuous person in general, so further discussion with you will bear no fruit for either of us. Have a nice life.
Ohmygoditsjrod
Banned
Here is my question poodaddy? This isn't meant to be disrespectful so if it comes off that way I apologize. I don't have a daughter but do have a niece.
Is it better to try and keep your daughter from these things or to teach her that these things are fiction and how she should seperate that from her reality and self worth?
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
You are the person who just hammered out a post because you saw the word condescending and assumed I was calling your parenting style condescending(why?), then I simply inform you that you misread and restate what I said and now I'm rude and don't understand anything? The guy who you wrote the response to originally had no trouble understanding what I was talking about, but whatever man.
writeandwrong
Neo Member
And I had no problem with their presence, those moments felt appropriate and non-exploitative. But they certainly could have been more "fanservice"-y, and were that the case it would have definitely soured the game a little for me.
Totori wears a see-through skirt, and the camera pans low enough that her rear end is on display during most battles. Outside of a few CG stills and pervy lines from the carriage driver, that game is mostly alright though. Star Ocean IV was much worse.
I haven't really followed the media for Star Ocean V or FFXV beyond seeing some character art. I'm not saying everything is at the level of that Omega Labyrinth game posted about earlier, but are you claiming that long running series like Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, Atelier, Fire Emblem, and others haven't amped up the fan service relative to a decade ago? I don't play quite as many games now as I did when I was younger, but I never stopped playing JRPGs. I have also been playing these games for over 20 years. Ya, you had stuff like Tifa's hilariously bouncing CGI boobs in a few FF7 cutscenes, or the FF12 cast's questionable taste in clothing, but I wasn't peaking at female characters in their underwear through keyholes in the PS1 and PS2 eras.
You and others keep bringing up "aimed at Japanese" audiences. You have to be aware of the fact that any JRPG with more than a shoe-string budget isn't going to get by with the 100-200k sales they get out of Japan. This came up in one of the Xenoblade Chronicles X thread. No one in Japan bought that game or the original. If certain types of pandering don't play very well outside of Japan, and most people in Japan don't give a shit about the game, why have it at all? Star Ocean is on that same list as well.
poodaddy
Member
That didn't come off disrespectful at all and I honestly appreciate the candor! Sometimes it seems like manners are a rare commodity these days, it's nice to see that someone still maintains them
. As for the question that you pose, it's absolutely better to teach her about fiction and how to process these types of entertainment mediums appropriately; I honestly believe that 100%. That being said, as much as I believe that she should be taught of this, and I will certainly teach her, I will be limiting her interaction with all gratuitous types of entertainment mediums, not just of a sexual nature but of a violent one too, until I believe that she is of the level of maturity to properly process and disseminate what she's seeing. I also believe that there is an overwhelming gender disparity in the industry in terms of fan service, particularly in eastern games; and that even if I were to explain these things to her there would undoubtedly be some confusion left over from seeing members of her own sex being objectified as sex symbols so gratuitously whilst the men are hardly ever subjected to the same exhibitionist treatment. The truth of the matter is that it's a cultural issue in many ways, and there's no easy, (or even right), way to handle the situation from a parental point of view. Undoubtedly, I will get some things wrong in trying to get her to understand what she's seeing in terms of the more exploitative aspects of females in gaming, and hopefully I get some things right as well. I guess we'll see over the next 13 years though
Ohmygoditsjrod
Banned
And what would you're response be if she started to enjoy games that include fanservice whether it be Cidney in FFXV, Senran Kagura or even BL visual novels?
poodaddy
Member
Well I'd have no choice but to support her in what she likes; I have no right to tell her otherwise assuming she's of age and is mature enough to properly process what she's seeing and understand why it's exploitative and what purpose it serves. I would still disagree with the context of the gratuitous content, as is my right, but if she loves something she'll always have my support no matter what my personal feelings on the media is.
kuroneko0509
Member
And that is what would make you a great father. A lot better than the replies I've seen elsewhere on this forum.
This is a crazy thread!
Of course people love jerking off to fan service, why wouldn't they? Nothing really wrong with it, it's a unique avenue to get fulfillment, and generally people want multiple avenues to fulfillment, so hell yea!
I'm not generally into animated stuff, so fan service doesn't typically do much for me, but every now and then I want something different and it fits the bill. Fan service is great!
I realize I'm grossly simplifying this conversation, but it seems strange the huge issue most people here are having with it.
Of course people love jerking off to fan service, why wouldn't they? Nothing really wrong with it, it's a unique avenue to get fulfillment, and generally people want multiple avenues to fulfillment, so hell yea!
I'm not generally into animated stuff, so fan service doesn't typically do much for me, but every now and then I want something different and it fits the bill. Fan service is great!
I realize I'm grossly simplifying this conversation, but it seems strange the huge issue most people here are having with it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is my problem. There are genres and types of games that its very hard for me to find "clean" entries in these days. I mean, FFS, I'm holding off buying the next Fire EmblemIn my opinion, the issue isn't the mere existence of fan service filled JRPGs/visual novels/etc. Disgaea came out in the west over 10 years ago, had its share of fan service, and handled it well. The game's entire plot was heavily centered around parodying other games and anime, so all of that stuff fit in. The bath scenes and beach scenes in the modern Persona games are super cheesy, but again it's self aware fan service, and fits in with the high school theme. I'm pretty sure you could find the same sort of scenes in the TGIF shows from the 80s and 90s.
The issue is that we are getting to the point where it's quite hard to buy games without fan service in some genres. And most of the time there is no real justification for it. It's mainly there out of a "load it full of tits and ass so the Otaku crowd will eat it up" mentality.
You mention other media, but if I am watching something like Lord of the Rings, I can be reasonably assured that I am not going to randomly see Arwen or one of the other major female characters dressed like this:
LOTR is a serious fantasy story, and that sort of thing would be completely out of place.
If I was to pick up a random JRPG published in the last 5 or so years, my chances would be much better than even that at least one female party member was garbed in something similar. Not only that, the rest of the sensibly dressed characters in the game will act like that is the most natural thing in the world to wear on a world spanning adventure. The plot will go on every bit as seriously as Lord of the Rings, but try to stick in jiggling tits, upskirts, and ass shots in as many cut scenes and victory screens as possible.
I have a little girl, who I would like to eventually play JRPGs with. However, what is she going to take from the genre if a large number of the female characters are dressed in micro skirts, bikinis, hot pants, or fetish gear while the boys wear mostly suitable (if sometimes goofy looking) clothing?
If it was just Hyperdimension Neptunia, or Disgaea, or similar titles it would be fine. I would just play something else if I wasn't looking for T&A and crude humor. Those games definitely have their place. My issue comes from the fact that that sort of stuff is seeping into series that 10-15 years ago were pretty innocuous.
She can go to anime conventions if she wants to. I don't really care what she likes (well, within reason) as long as she grows up respecting herself.
I just don't want her to have to feel like entire genres of games aren't really for her due to excessive fanservice aimed at 200k males in Japan when JRPGs used to be about the most female friendly genre out there after Nintendo's stuff and puzzle games.