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[KirbYuuYuu]

Well no one stated anything about touching below the face Iirc

 

[decoyplatypus]

Wasn't Fire Emblem still selling less and less even prior to the remakes of the first & third games? It could be those games were made to try to appeal to a declining fanbase by having a game that starred the very popular Marth in it again. Even Awakening takes place in the same world as the first and third Fire Emblem games and has someone posing as Marth in an essential storyline role... it's only 1000 years after those games.

Sure. Sales for PoR and RD were bad too. And it is entirely possible that the DS games were a conscious attempt to return to simpler gameplay systems and popular characters. So let's say that releasing another game just like PoR (much as I would have liked it) probably would not have helped anything.

Mismanagement could absolutely be a factor, but the weakening sales happened over many entries, culminating in a pretty massive drop when Shadow Dragon released. It was at a point where they didn't even know if the series was viable in the west anymore, so they decided to add in a bit of pandering for the audience they thought were more likely to keep the series alive.

I am perfectly aware of why they did it. I am less certain that Awakening's success proves that fanservice was necessary to save Fire Emblem, particularly as that was only one among several things Awakening did to try to revive interest in the series.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

On the talk of face touching, they're going for skinship. Skinship is relatively normal and a form of physical bonding, skinship can go as far as handholding, cuddling, and heavy petting.

You can't touch a boob in the new Fire Emblem, only the face.

Can I pick a nose?

 

[Nanashrew]

Can I pick a nose?

Dunno, but if I get the game I'll be poking everyone's noses.

 

[Javier]

Mismanagement could absolutely be a factor, but the weakening sales happened over many entries, culminating in a pretty massive drop when Shadow Dragon released. It was at a point where they didn't even know if the series was viable in the west anymore, so they decided to add in a bit of pandering for the audience they thought were more likely to keep the series alive.

Actually, for what I remember, Shadow Dragon had improved sales from its predecessors. Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn had the worst sales out of the worldwide games (even the Japan-only Mystery of the Emblem on the Super Famicom sold better).

 

[Green Mamba]

Except that after Awakening, Fire Emblem's future was assured. So it was never "grody face touching or no Fire Emblem." That's a complete false dichotomy.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Ignore this

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I actually had no idea skinship was what they were going for in FE Fates. If so, that's absolutely an (innocuous) cultural thing at its base.

 

[Puruzi]

Except that after Awakening, Fire Emblem's future was assured. So it was never "grody face touching or no Fire Emblem." That's a complete false dichotomy.

why is everything "grody" to you

it's just face touching.

 

[theprodigy]

Or, you have women posting here, saying what they think and expressing what they want, but apparently that doesn't count...

Are you surprised? I'm not, these threads are always so predictable.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

why is everything "grody" to you

it's just face touching.

Just a go to word in case the user is too tired to come up with something qualitative. Everyone knows thighs are way cleaner than the human face anyway.

Are you surprised? I'm not, these threads are always so predictable.

We actually had a pretty wonderful and amenable discussion about Rise and I think the conclusion wasn't too terrible and even women gave input, but whatever, focus on what you want.

 

[Mik317]

Are you surprised? I'm not, these threads are always so predictable.

a lot of this has to do with the holier than thou attitude of posters on both sides.

 

[Vlaphor]

a lot of this has to do with the holier than thou attitude of posters on both sides.

This is one main issue I have with discussions like this.

Don't cry censorship, it makes it look like you take all of this far too seriously.
Don't call people who like fanservice names meant to belittle their age, social status, or sexual activities. It makes you look like a bully, like someone who can pick on someone else because of a perceived lesser status than you.

 

[sensui-tomo]

a lot of this has to do with the holier than thou attitude of posters on both sides.

This is one main issue I have with discussions like this.

Don't cry censorship, it makes it look like you take all of this far too seriously.
Don't call people who like fanservice names meant to belittle their age, social status, or sexual activities. It makes you look like a bully, like someone who can pick on someone else because of a perceived lesser status than you.

I get tired of being called a creeper for liking some stupid fan service every now and then (not talking anything like swimsuits on nanako(p4 ... thank god its not a thing) but liking something like that beach scene or quiet (I like the cheesecake... i think thats the term, but agree the character was wasted potential like krillin (dbz fans get this joke)) That attitude needs to go away. Also tired of people avatar quoting that person with the Etrian oddyssey dancer avatar... its stupid unless its done in jest.

 

[TheJRPGamer]

a lot of this has to do with the holier than thou attitude of posters on both sides.

Agreed. I believe that what gets lost in many of these discussions is that the industry and the market is big enough to supply something for all sides.

There is room for games focusing sexual fanservice, there is room for the burly middle-aged man power fantasy, there is room for empowered female protagonist, and etc. Nothing needs to be lost on any front.

While I agree that gender representation is lacking (see empowered female protagonists), I also feel that we can pursue and achieve equal representation without losing anything else. The industry is big enough to make everyone happy; and, I believe that is what should be the ultimate goal.

 

[wyrdwad]

Agreed. I believe that what gets lost in many of these discussions is that the industry and the market is big enough to supply something for all sides.

There is room for games focusing sexual fanservice, there is room for the burly middle-aged man power fantasy, there is room for empowered female protagonist, and etc. Nothing needs to be lost on any front.

While I agree that gender representation is lacking (see empowered female protagonists), I also feel that we can pursue and achieve equal representation without losing anything else. The industry is big enough to make everyone happy; and, I believe that is what should be the ultimate goal.

Couldn't have put it better myself!

-Tom

 

[Nanashrew]

Agreed. I believe that what gets lost in many of these discussions is that the industry and the market is big enough to supply something for all sides.

There is room for games focusing sexual fanservice, there is room for the burly middle-aged man power fantasy, there is room for empowered female protagonist, and etc. Nothing needs to be lost on any front.

While I agree that gender representation is lacking (see empowered female protagonists), I also feel that we can pursue and achieve equal representation without losing anything else. The industry is big enough to make everyone happy; and, I believe that is what should be the ultimate goal.

There's room for fan service and non-fan service but It does start taking away when those non-fan servicy games start adopting heavy fan service that never did prior. Especially if it's a long running series and I can understand why people would have issues with it.

The industry can have something for everyone but at the same time it has also excluded people with odd additions and their desire for selling more, and shock value and "controversy" in the guise of pushing boundaries.

 

[Robaperas]

I really don't care for it; I was playing Valkyria Chronicles recently and it had a weird beach scene in it (it was a report and it was the most expensive one by a large margin), it felt really out of place and it didn't add anything to the supposedly serious story or the characters. If the game revels in it's "fanserviceness", I have no problems with it, I just won't buy it because probably I'm not it's intended audience.

 

[GHound]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

-Tom

I was serious about the cloning thing. Need more people in the industry not afraid to speak their minds and stick to their guns. Even if I didn't necessarily agree with every point you made(such is partly what it means to be human). Massive respect!

 

[Green Mamba]

why is everything "grody" to you

it's just face touching.

Grody is as grody does.

EDIT: But yeah, it's "just face touching." You "don't have to play it." This of course means that it is above criticism.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Grody is as grody does.

EDIT: But yeah, it's "just face touching." You "don't have to play it." This of course means that it is above criticism.

I mean your avatar is a joke about child molestation. You might say "it's just a joke" or "just ad block it", that's not it being above criticism it's contextualization. What exactly is your issue with the game having this system? Don't say grody, use your words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ApwiFTBhYs

It's a game play abstraction to handle relationships I guess? I honestly don't know, but what's the problem? Isn't it a game where characters have relationships with one another? Is it that out of place?

 

[Green Mamba]

I mean your avatar is a joke about child molestation. You might say "it's just a joke" or "just ad block it", that's not it being above criticism it's contextualization. What exactly is your issue with the game having this system? Don't say grody, use your words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ApwiFTBhYs

It's a game play abstraction to handle relationships I guess? I honestly don't know, but what's the problem? Isn't it a game where characters have relationships with one another? Is it that out of place?

It's a pandering, weirdly sexual minigame that is just above the board enough to give it plausible deniability so that its target audience can get away with arguing that it isn't "lewd," inserted into a series that has two decades of history and has never stooped as low as this.

Good enough?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Are you surprised? I'm not, these threads are always so predictable.

Nah, I'm not.

Don't cry censorship, it makes it look like you take all of this far too seriously.
Don't call people who like fanservice names meant to belittle their age, social status, or sexual activities. It makes you look like a bully, like someone who can pick on someone else because of a perceived lesser status than you.

Who cried for censorship? Sigh, predictable indeed. My bad, I misunderstood what you meant.

Agreed. I believe that what gets lost in many of these discussions is that the industry and the market is big enough to supply something for all sides.

There is room for games focusing sexual fanservice, there is room for the burly middle-aged man power fantasy, there is room for empowered female protagonist, and etc. Nothing needs to be lost on any front.

While I agree that gender representation is lacking (see empowered female protagonists), I also feel that we can pursue and achieve equal representation without losing anything else. The industry is big enough to make everyone happy; and, I believe that is what should be the ultimate goal.

If only it were the case. As you said, gender representation has quite a way to go still, and when fanservice stuff starts creeping in genres that historically didn't have so much of it, well, it's quite alienating.

 

[Vlaphor]

I didn't say "cried for censorship", I said said "cry censorship", as in "This company refused to put a sexy bikini on a 13 year old girl....they're being censored! Fight the power!"

I don't call Mika's ass slap being removed censorship, I call it editing. Editing that I'm against, but editing nonetheless.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I didn't say "cried for censorship", I said said "cry censorship", as in "This company refused to put a sexy bikini on a 13 year old girl....they're being censored! Fight the power!"

I don't call Mika's ass slap being removed censorship, I call it editing. Editing that I'm against, but editing nonetheless.

Ahhh gotcha. Sorry, I misread.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

It's a pandering, weirdly sexual minigame that is just above the board enough to give it plausible deniability so that its target audience can get away with arguing that it isn't "lewd," inserted into a series that has two decades of history and has never stooped as low as this.

Good enough?

Weirdly sexual? Can you qualify that? I really don't know what that means. It's pandering but I don't think it's really sexual. It seems pretty non-offensive. Head patting is definitely a thing in anime and I guess Japan. Anyway didn't the game let you start relationships with and marry the characters in the game, isn't that pandering, why is patting them on the head weirdly sexual? What happened to all that hurrah for the male fan service by the way, since the system includes both genders.

EDIT: It just feels like you took grody and exchanged it for weirdly sexual. Yeah it's a touching game in your Fire Emblem, but that alone doesn't make it sexual.

edit edit: Also a little funny that you think the mini game was designed to give plausible deniability to Americans/Europeans you disagree with about video games on the Internet I'm sure that's a big aspect of what went into it, nothing to do with yomecolle being popular in Japan. Actually I really don't know how popular it really is.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Actually, for what I remember, Shadow Dragon had improved sales from its predecessors. Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn had the worst sales out of the worldwide games (even the Japan-only Mystery of the Emblem on the Super Famicom sold better).

Hmm, must have been Japan only then. IIRC, Shadow Dragon was a mega bomb everywhere else.

Who cried for censorship? Sigh, predictable indeed. My bad, I misunderstood what you meant.

Not what was meant, but I would say crying for something to not exist is akin to crying for censorship, and we've had plenty of that in this thread.

It's a pandering, weirdly sexual minigame that is just above the board enough to give it plausible deniability so that its target audience can get away with arguing that it isn't "lewd," inserted into a series that has two decades of history and has never stooped as low as this.

Good enough?

That's just your perception. It's gender-neutral innocuous face touching maybe a tad more risque than Pokemon Amie, which seems to be what it's inspired by, not Majo Majo Shinpan or whatever. It might not come off that way overseas where skinship isn't a thing, but after watching videos of it, that's what it seems like to me.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Hell no it doesn't. Done correctly, fanservice can be incredibly useful in any form of entertainment. It's not knowing when or where to draw the line between fanservice and telling the story you wish to tell that you can end up running into trouble.

 

[Dio]

The fear of the ratings boards has really held back a lot of what might tip games into a new era of maturity. There have been plenty of movies with tons of explicit sexual content on display that are not pornography, but there's tits and dicks and intercourse everywhere. I think if this kind of content existed in the game world we'd all be better off instead of people feeling like they're not going to make any money back because all of the major distribution platforms avoid anything rated AO and having to settle for some cheesecake shit.

Essentially, the game industry needs its titles like Short Bus. The fact that Japan is the only place where there are in fact non-pornographic games with explicit content is kind of depressing (and even then, these titles only exist on PC and are usually censored for release on platforms where they don't allow that stuff.)

 

[wyrdwad]

I don't respect your viewpoint, no, because I personally feel it marginalizes a large group of people. I do respect how you've conducted your argument though. Pretty level headed. And that's that I suppose. God speed.

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

 

[kuroneko0509]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

This is such a fantastic and genuine response. Thank you again for all your work and your civil discussion in this topic.

Part of me wonders how much female gamers domestically would actually enjoy Idolm@ster if it came out over here. I mean within my own community there was quite a few that wished it was here. For similar reasons above, to dress them up in cute outfits and listen to catchy idol pop songs. Before folks assume otherwise, it's not as pandering as you'd think, as the simulation aspects are pretty intense. Similar to how folks write off Atelier, when it's so much more, especially with Idolm@ster 2. But unfortunately, the West has a preconceived notion and disgust for Idol Culture.

 

[TheJRPGamer]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Thanks for sharing. It's great to get some prospective from someone who has been around. Good stuff, Tom!

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Bravo. And the bolded attitude is in all seriousness, one of the most dangerous concepts to permeate modern culture. The singular notion that women are so weak, they can't handle freedom of expression and need other individuals with "superior world views" dictating to them how they should conduct themselves in "progressive" societies is puke worthy.

Thanks for this thoughtful, honest post.

 

[-Horizon-]

Tom's post. I like it.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Essentially, the game industry needs its titles like Short Bus. The fact that Japan is the only place where there are in fact non-pornographic games with explicit content is kind of depressing (and even then, these titles only exist on PC and are usually censored for release on platforms where they don't allow that stuff.)

Hell, Japan is the only place where there's a viable game porn market in the first place.

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Great post. While there are absolutely parts of idol culture I'm not super keen on, it's perfectly understandable why someone would work towards becoming one, and to criticize that is a total dick move.

Even if it doesn't change anybody's minds, I do hope the detractors like Techno at least read the post.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Thanks for being awesome as always Tom.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

awesome post, Tom.

 

[psynergylover]

wow, great post from tom

 

[Demoskinos]

Standing Applause for Tom.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I think I give my props to both autoduelist (?) and Tom in this thread for the most part.

 

[CazTGG]

Actually, for what I remember, Shadow Dragon had improved sales from its predecessors. Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn had the worst sales out of the worldwide games (even the Japan-only Mystery of the Emblem on the Super Famicom sold better).

Sales for the series worldwide (from what little i've been able to find) were on decline ever since the Sacred Stones was released (which as I recall sold roughly 800,000 copies compared to the nearly 1 million of Rekka no Ken), though Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn sold roughly the same amount, the latter's poor performance being fairly underwhelming given the Wii's sales during the year of 2007 and an appearance at E3. The decreasing sales did stop with Shadow Dragon which on the surface sounds like a step in the right direction. However, like Radiant Dawn is to the Wii, when considering how many DS' had been sold in 2009, coupled with many of Nintendo's other successful releases at the time, the slight bump in sales numbers are far less impressive than they seem, hence why its sales are still seen as underwhelming.

That said, none of them have sold as poorly as Thracia 776. That game didn't even break 150,000 copies.

 

[Hexa]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

You are the hero we need. Great post! Keep being awesome.

 

[Mik317]

Good shit Tom.

I still don't fully agree with everything about "idol culture" but looking at it that way gives me another point of view

 

[Javier]

Awesome post, Tom. My respect goes to you, man.

That said, none of them have sold as poorly as Thracia 776. That game didn't even break 150,000 copies.

With FE5 being a Japan-only Super Famicom game released in 1999, that's to be expected.

 

[jengo]

You say pointless junk, but I can't think of any mystery dungeon roguelike games on the Vita. If the game is bad and is all fanservice (which it probably is sadly).

It sucks that some of the genres I love actually need this shit for it to even sell.

Omega Labyrinth looks exactly like Sorcery Saga: Curse of the Great Curry God, dungeon mechanics-wise. Movement, battle system, probably loot system/upgrading as well. I love Sorcery Saga, so I will likely check out Omega, but yeah...similar to Monster Monpiece, there may be a good game in there but it's buried in that aesthetic.

I hope Shiren 5 comes out in the West...

 

[jay]

Stuff

-Tom

It's hard to attack you because you're being so earnest, but as you anticipated, this will change the minds of only people with very weakly formed opinions. That innocent people can pursue warped ideals is why things like sexism and racism are so insidious and deeply rooted in society.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

It's hard to attack you because you're being so earnest, but as you anticipated, this will change the minds of only people with very weakly formed opinions. That innocent people can pursue warped ideals is why things like sexism and racism are so insidious and deeply rooted in society.

Wanting to be a pop star is a "warped ideal" now? We're not talking about people aspiring to join ISIS or something here. Wanting to be an idol because they found what they saw on TV cute shouldn't be enough to give a stern lecture to on the danger of gender norms in a modern progressive society. It's just kids being kids, and I certainly wouldn't go up to them and crush their dreams based on my own viewpoints. It's a dick move and exactly what people mean when they talk about PC culture going out of control.

 

[Demoskinos]

It's hard to attack you because you're being so earnest, but as you anticipated, this will change the minds of only people with very weakly formed opinions. That innocent people can pursue warped ideals is why things like sexism and racism are so insidious and deeply rooted in society.

I think you're entirely disregarding the fact that cultural aspects of what Tom was talking about. Applying a western lens to judge eastern culture wiffs of imperialism.

 

[wyrdwad]

It's hard to attack you because you're being so earnest, but as you anticipated, this will change the minds of only people with very weakly formed opinions. That innocent people can pursue warped ideals is why things like sexism and racism are so insidious and deeply rooted in society.

Well, that was sort of my point: what makes these ideals "warped" other than our Western perception of them? I don't see them being inherently sexist, since boy idols are very much a thing as well, and I don't really see there being any sort of societal harm whatsoever in people wearing outfits that they think are cute and singing songs that they enjoy. In general, the idol world in Japan seems far more open and less likely to corrupt or ruin someone's life than the performance world of North America, as idols aren't even particularly controversial in Japan -- they're just a part of life, and people almost universally love them over there. There's no TMZ running around sniffing for scandals every other second, and no real call for teen idols to start getting daring and pulling a Wrecking Ball in order to capture the media's waning attention (rather, the media's attention will just naturally wane and there's pretty much not a damned thing anyone can do to stop it -- which is a whole other story, but still preferable to the "shock culture" that pervades here in the West IMHO).

There are sex scandals, but there are always sex scandals in show business -- and the sex scandals in the idol world are literally that PEOPLE ARE HAVING SEX. As opposed to cheating, rape, and other much more severe scandals that seem to headline entertainment news here in the U.S.

The idol world is shockingly innocent compared to the music scene anywhere else in the world. The most scandalous thing about it is probably the outfits, and honestly, I don't see what the big deal is there. People should be allowed to wear what they want, and I've never heard of a Japanese pop idol who wasn't ALL ABOUT wearing his/her outfit, no matter how skimpy or outlandish it may have been.

I think we're just a little prudish here in the Western world -- we see skin and we immediately say SEX. But in Japan, showing a little skin is pretty much a way of life, and is not considered a sexual thing. (Remember, this is the land of public baths and hot springs -- which are, BTW, an experience I'd urge everyone to have at some point in their lives, because Japanese hot springs feel *AMAZING*.) It's we who make a big deal out of it, and who MAKE it sexual.

-Tom

 

[Eusis]

Putting aside the broader issue of how it may be influencing or reinforcing problematic trends in society at larger, I feel it's primarily a matter of the overall tone of the work, what it's going for, etc. Random fanservice in a game where it doesn't really belong or make sense bugs me, IE something with a more reserved and serious atmosphere randomly throwing that sort of thing in, or where it's like something mostly innocent but has this random "spike" as it were. Something that's more outright ridiculous and bombastic, such as Bayonetta, doesn't really bother me though.

Some more cliched instances of it do bug me too though, like constantly having skimpy female armor, boob plates, high heels for combat gear, etc. This kinda bugged me with Fire Emblem Awakening in that it seemed outside of Lucina this stuff was more prevalent when it was mostly non-existent beforehand, and with how successful that game was it probably won't be going anywhere.

EDIT: Actually another good example would be Flemeth's outfit in DAII. Especially since in many ways that seems like one of the weirdest angles to go about adding fanservice to a game.