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Does too much fanservice in games bother you?

RM8

Member
Mar 11, 2012
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I know it sounds unreasonable, but optional pandering still devalues a game for me. I'm still buying Fire Emblem so it's not like I'm boycotting or anything - but as it is, I think Fates is tainted in a way most of the series is not, and I hope the rest of the game is good enough to make the compromise worth it.
 

SeanTSC

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Jun 28, 2013
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Considering Fatal Frame's swimsuit exists for a pretty fucking negative context in the game's story, turning around once you've completed the story and going "GOOD JOB! NOW YOU GET TO CHECK HER OUT IN THIS BIKINI OUTFIT!" feels completely fucking tone deaf to their own message.

Yeah, I'm aware of the context of the swimsuit. Optional Alternate Costumes for people who want to run around in them in subsequent playthroughs in no way invalidates the rest of it though. They're there for stupid, smutty fun and that's it. Alt Costumes for fun do not ever require context. If you're that hung up on something totally optional then I really don't know what to tell you.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Feb 16, 2014
17,263
0
0
33
Arlington Texas
Still their vision, though! No matter how stupid it is, it's not really in our place to say, "Nope, sorry, that's not acceptable art. We're going to have to remove that for you, because we know better."

(My issue is only with the censorship of artistic content during localization; criticism is completely fine and in fact highly encouraged, I just hate when people take it that one step too far and decide that they know better than the game's creator.)

-Tom

They can still be wrong in their vision. I'm not saying it's not acceptable art, I'm okay with fan service, but it's not a required toolset for everything. The choices to use fan service in so many things with little regard to tone breaks up a lot of moments and can be in large parts pointless to the fan and the vision.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Boy is that one of the most blatantly untrue things I've ever heard in my life. America is crazy uncomfortable with it on the whole, especially admitting that they like those kind of things openly, and with acknowledging the sexual preferences of other people. I don't know how you can say that kind of thing with a straight face with how big an of an issue bigotry and gay rights still are.
There's sexual preferences, when one of the most popular shows features a shit ton of T and A(Game of Thrones) it's not really an american problem, at least not as much as it was in the past,, then there's being uncomfortable with out of place shit like this:


That's not an american specific issue.

Still their vision, though! No matter how stupid it is, it's not really in our place to say, "Nope, sorry, that's not acceptable art. We're going to have to remove that for you, because we know better."

(My issue is only with the censorship of artistic content during localization; criticism is completely fine and in fact highly encouraged, I just hate when people take it that one step too far and decide that they know better than the game's creator.)

-Tom
Critique is incredibly valuable in the art world, if people were taught to not accept any criticism and just go with "their vision" no matter what the quality of most things would plummet. Because sometimes people do know better than the person who created something imho. And if they're going to localize then obviously they're going to make it more acceptable by our standards, like removing a ridiculous bikini outfit meant for a 13 year old.
 

Jumplion

Member
Nov 17, 2014
981
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I don't get why the argument for fanservice tends to go down the road of claiming that people somehow don't want sex or sexuality presented in games, or are prudish or whatever.

These characters aren't real. They cannot make their own decisions. They are not "women with agency" or "choosing their wardrobe", they are deliberately designed creations with the express intent of titilation for no other reason than for titilation. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't A) heavily skewed towards a male demographic and B) heavily skewed towards women taking the brunt of the fan servicing. They are designed in a mostly male vacuum, from a mostly male perspective, and born in a mostly male dominated corporate culture.

So many of us (mostly men) take for granted just how goddamn pandered to we are, in ways that we don't even think about anymore. How many memes has Miranda's ass from Mass Effect created, and how many other asses have we completely glossed over and not even realize were there, but for a woman was yet another tick mark on the "another goddamn ass" list?

And hell, how many women even notice that stuff? Like I said, we take for granted just how heavily skewed towards male enjoyment our media is. This goes for everyone.

Being against fanservice in no way makes you "against" women having agency, or a prude, or against displaying sex of titilation or whatever. It has nothing to do with "Americans are just prudish!" or "People just don't understand Japanese culture!" or whatever excuse people put out to defend their digital cleavage. It has everything to do with making some fucking sense.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
25,271
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I don't get why the argument for fanservice tends to go down the road of claiming that people somehow don't want sex or sexuality presented in games, or are prudish or whatever.

These characters aren't real. They cannot make their own decisions. They are not "women with agency" or "choosing their wardrobe", they are deliberately designed creations with the express intent of titilation for no other reason than for titilation. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't A) heavily skewed towards a male demographic and B) heavily skewed towards women taking the brunt of the fan servicing. They are designed in a mostly male vacuum, from a mostly male perspective, and born in a mostly male dominated corporate culture.

So many of us (mostly men) take for granted just how goddamn pandered to we are, in ways that we don't even think about anymore. How many memes has Miranda's ass from Mass Effect created, and how many other asses have we completely glossed over and not even realize were there, but for a woman was yet another tick mark on the "another goddamn ass" list?

And hell, how many women even notice that stuff? Like I said, we take for granted just how heavily skewed towards male enjoyment our media is. This goes for everyone.

Being against fanservice in no way makes you "against" women having agency, or a prude, or against displaying sex of titilation or whatever. It has nothing to do with "Americans are just prudish!" or "People just don't understand Japanese culture!" or whatever excuse people put out to defend their digital cleavage. It has everything to do with making some fucking sense.
Exactly, I hate that "oh you're just a puritanical." or "you're uncomfortable with sex" bullshit. Which is especially ironic considering that it's usually a phrase borught up in defense of a place where they censor pornography and arrested a woman for making artwork created from sculpts on her genitals.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Feb 16, 2014
17,263
0
0
33
Arlington Texas
I don't get why the argument for fanservice tends to go down the road of claiming that people somehow don't want sex or sexuality presented in games, or are prudish or whatever.

These characters aren't real. They cannot make their own decisions. They are not "women with agency" or "choosing their wardrobe", they are deliberately designed creations with the express intent of titilation for no other reason than for titilation. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't A) heavily skewed towards a male demographic and B) heavily skewed towards women taking the brunt of the fan servicing. They are designed in a mostly male vacuum, from a mostly male perspective, and born in a mostly male dominated corporate culture.

So many of us (mostly men) take for granted just how goddamn pandered to we are, in ways that we don't even think about anymore. How many memes has Miranda's ass from Mass Effect created, and how many other asses have we completely glossed over and not even realize were there, but for a woman was yet another tick mark on the "another goddamn ass" list?

And hell, how many women even notice that stuff? Like I said, we take for granted just how heavily skewed towards male enjoyment our media is. This goes for everyone.

Being against fanservice in no way makes you "against" women having agency, or a prude, or against displaying sex of titilation or whatever. It has nothing to do with "Americans are just prudish!" or "People just don't understand Japanese culture!" or whatever excuse people put out to defend their digital cleavage. It has everything to do with making some fucking sense.

Women's opinions mostly got ignored in this thread, sadly. I am for equal pandering! That other thread on how to make a sexualized male character is really good. Hours Left had an excellent post in that thread http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=184737980&postcount=453
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Feb 15, 2011
1,909
2
0
Critique is incredibly valuable in the art world, if people were taught to not accept any criticism and just go with "their vision" no matter what the quality of most things would plummet. Because sometimes people do know better than the person who created something imho. And if they're going to localize then obviously they're going to make it more acceptable by our standards, like removing a ridiculous bikini outfit meant for a 13 year old.

Why?

Why remove it? Why not let people choose to experience it the way it was originally presented, or alternately choose not to support it at all? That would certainly send a far stronger message back to Japan!

Alternately, why not keep the fanservice, but make it entirely optional? That way those who want it (the "13-year-olds," who are still part of the fanbase!) can have it, and those who don't can just turn it off.

Why should localizers get to make the decision for the consumer? Why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to make the decision for him/herself? It's absolutely condescending for a localizer to say, "I know what the American public wants, and they don't want this, so out it goes!" Maybe 95% of the American public DON'T want that... but what about the 5% who do? Should they be marginalized simply because their wants are considered divergent from social norms? Because, you know, that's the kind of thinking that made gay marriage illegal all this time -- the idea that divergences from social norms are deviant and should not be allowed.

Even if you consider content in a game to be perverted and classless... let the classless perverts have it! They deserve to enjoy their games just as much as the rest of us. And to say that it "taints" the game for the rest of us is no different than saying having someone of a different race, or sexual orientation, taints the neighborhood.

That's an extreme example, but I think an apt one. You're basically arguing for moralistic purity of content as decided upon by a morally superior American publisher.

-Tom
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Why?

Why remove it? Why not let people choose to experience it the way it was originally presented, or alternately choose not to support it at all? That would certainly send a far stronger message back to Japan!

Alternately, why not keep the fanservice, but make it entirely optional? That way those who want it (the "13-year-olds," who are still part of the fanbase!) can have it, and those who don't can just turn it off.

Why should localizers get to make the decision for the consumer? Why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to make the decision for him/herself? It's absolutely condescending for a localizer to say, "I know what the American public wants, and they don't want this, so out it goes!" Maybe 95% of the American public DON'T want that... but what about the 5% who do? Should they be marginalized simply because their wants are considered divergent from social norms? Because, you know, that's the kind of thinking that made gay marriage illegal all this time -- the idea that divergence from social norms are deviant and should not be allowed.

Even if you consider content to be perverted and classless... let the classless perverts have it! They deserve to enjoy their games just as much as the rest of us.

-Tom
I wasn't referring to 13 year olds irl as the fanbase, I was referring to characters who are supposed to be underage being dressed in provocative outfits, for example the recent xenoblade x character. Why should the decision to remove it be made? Because that shit is disgusting. It's different from gay marriage, sex identity and sexual preference issues. The classless perverts aren't exactly top priority on the morality list imho. Not to mention, that the industry skewed towards them way more often in the past, and in many cases still does. They aren't an oppressed minority, the people on the other side however, women, who want better designs for characters who're women, and don't want to their bodies to be displayed for "classless perverts." They're still the minority. And people rarely listen or understand.
 

SeanTSC

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Jun 28, 2013
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There's sexual preferences, when one of the most popular shows features a shit ton of T and A(Game of Thrones) it's not really an american problem, at least not as much as it was in the past,, then there's being uncomfortable with out of place shit like this:


That's not an american specific issue.


Critique is incredibly valuable in the art world, if people were taught to not accept any criticism and just go with "their vision" no matter what the quality of most things would plummet. Because sometimes people do know better than the person who created something imho. And if they're going to localize then obviously they're going to make it more acceptable by our standards, like removing a ridiculous bikini outfit meant for a 13 year old.

Quiet is absolutely absurd and I've never said otherwise. Quiet does the most hilarious of it when her meter thing is high and she has a massive crush on Snake. They go a bit extreme on it and I agree that it's out of place. But getting totally freaked out by her is just as weird. I thought it was dumb, but it didn't make me uncomfortable. My girlfriend has done much more explicit stuff than that when she wants my attention.

And yeah, I'm not cool with what Japan does with 13 year olds either. Anything under 16 is really creepy and disgusting to me and unfortunately I have intimate and personal experience with pedophiles. There's nothing I hate more and nothing disgusts me more in life. I'm right there with you on that. 1000 year old dragons are some heinous bullshit and if we never see another one again then the world would be a better place.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Nov 16, 2012
35,965
2
0
Vancouver
Why?

Why remove it? Why not let people choose to experience it the way it was originally presented, or alternately choose not to support it at all? That would certainly send a far stronger message back to Japan!

Alternately, why not keep the fanservice, but make it entirely optional? That way those who want it (the "13-year-olds," who are still part of the fanbase!) can have it, and those who don't can just turn it off.

Why should localizers get to make the decision for the consumer? Why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to make the decision for him/herself? It's absolutely condescending for a localizer to say, "I know what the American public wants, and they don't want this, so out it goes!" Maybe 95% of the American public DON'T want that... but what about the 5% who do? Should they be marginalized simply because their wants are considered divergent from social norms? Because, you know, that's the kind of thinking that made gay marriage illegal all this time -- the idea that divergences from social norms are deviant and should not be allowed.

Even if you consider content in a game to be perverted and classless... let the classless perverts have it! They deserve to enjoy their games just as much as the rest of us. And to say that it "taints" the game for the rest of us is no different than saying having someone of a different race, or sexual orientation, taints the neighborhood.

That's an extreme example, but I think an apt one. You're basically arguing for moralistic purity of content as decided upon by a morally superior American publisher.

-Tom

No it fucking isn't. Crass objectification isn't remotely in the same ballpark as sexual/racial discrimination.
 

Jumplion

Member
Nov 17, 2014
981
0
0
Women's opinions mostly got ignored in this thread, sadly. I am for equal pandering! That other thread on how to make a sexualized male character is really good. Hours Left had an excellent post in that thread http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=184737980&postcount=453

Uh-oh, you're attempting to speak for all women! Don't you know that I have a friend who is friends with a woman who doesn't mind fanservice?

"Equal pandering" is an interesting way to go about it, and I totally get why people argue for it, but I can't say I agree with the idea, at least completely. Pandering for one side just creates more pandering overall, and it doesn't help with the issue of our media still being heavily catered to and designed around men.

At the very least, creators need to know when fan service should be appropriate because hot damn is it peppered in places where I don't think even they realize they put it in.

Though I would totally be on board with, like, Gears of War with a Speedo cheat mode. Or a sexy Super Mutant calendar with mutants just pounding it.
 

RM8

Member
Mar 11, 2012
21,312
1
0
Tom, you're honestly hurting your argument by comparing issues related to human rights and discrimination to anime boobs. IMO at least.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Quiet is absolutely absurd and I've never said otherwise. Quiet does the most hilarious of it when her meter thing is high and she has a massive crush on Snake. They go a bit extreme on it and I agree that it's out of place. But getting totally freaked out by her is just as weird. I thought it was dumb, but it didn't make me uncomfortable. My girlfriend has done much more explicit stuff than that when she wants my attention.

And yeah, I'm not cool with what Japan does with 13 year olds either. Anything under 16 is really creepy and disgusting to me and unfortunately I have intimate and personal experience with pedophiles. There's nothing I hate more and nothing disgusts me more in life. I'm right there with you on that. 1000 year old dragons are some heinous bullshit and if we never see another one again then the world would be a better place.
There's a scene where she's getting tortured and the camera still chooses to zoom in on her breasts, then there's also the issue of Paz who clearly looks underage and had all this horible shit happen to her yet Kojima still considered it a good idea wearing a questionable outfit as well as having posters like this in the game,

Kojima is incredibly questionable at this point when it comes to female characters. Both are so incredibly out of place thematically that it makes one wonder how someone could not be weirded out by it. Wanna know why i'm not weirded out during a netflix and chill session? Because that shit is way more appropriate for the occasion, a woman irl sitting next to me isn't someone who was designed with the male gaze in mind by a group of middle aged-old men. So that's why I wouldn't be uncomfortable irl compared to a video game so obviously trying to pander to me because i'm a guy.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Feb 15, 2011
1,909
2
0
I wasn't referring to 13 year olds irl as the fanbase, I was referring to characters who are supposed to be underage being dressed in provocative outfits, for example the recent xenoblade x character. Why should the decision to remove it be made? Because that shit is disgusting. It's different from gay marriage, sex identity and sexual preference issues. The classless perverts aren't exactly top priority on the morality list imho. Not to mention, that the industry skewed towards them way more often in the past, and in many cases still does. They aren't an oppressed minority, the people on the other side however, women, who want better designs for characters who're women, and don't want to their bodies to be displayed for "classless perverts." They're still the minority. And people rarely listen or understand.

So you're saying, because they're the minority, and because they have a lot of other games that cater to them, and because you don't agree with their viewpoints, they do not deserve to be given games that contain things they would enjoy without first having those things removed.

...That's the American way, right there. "I don't agree with these people, and I find their ways disgusting, so I will take from them indiscriminately because I am superior."

Sorry, but that's all I'm hearing here. It's classism at best, and a superiority complex at worst.

I genuinely don't mean any offense with this statement, but... honestly, I find that attitude absolutely reprehensible.

Art should not be censored because you disagree with it morally. That flies in the face of everything I believe in, everything America is SUPPOSED to stand for, and everything art DOES stand for. I absolutely will never comprehend how anyone can feel that way, and would suggest we simply agree to disagree on this now, because this entire discussion is starting to genuinely upset me.

Tom, you're honestly hurting your argument by comparing issues related to human rights and discrimination to anime boobs. IMO at least.

Just to clarify, then, this is not about "anime boobs," it's about art. Whether it be fine art, pornographic art, art created from the heart, cash-grab art, racist art, sexist art, etc... it's still art, and it still deserves to be protected and presented as-is. I make absolutely no distinction between the Mona Lisa and Moero Chronicle -- one is certainly more important, but in the end, they are both works of art, and they should both be granted equal respect and equal protection as far as I'm concerned. I would no sooner censor the swimsuits in Xenoblade X than I would draw a mustache on the Mona Lisa, or put pants on Michaelangelo's David. They may be on different levels, but they're all ultimately human creative endeavors, and should not ever be altered by anyone but their own creators.

...And even then, I'd be hesitant to make any alterations if I felt the creators were being pressured into changing their works by outside moral authorities.

This is very much a zero-tolerance policy for me. If the creator put something into his/her work that's tasteless and unrefined, or even downright pornographic... well, that was his/her decision, and that is now an integral part of the final product. If the public cannot accept the final product with that aspect fully intact, then I do not believe the public deserves that final product at all.

-Tom
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Nov 16, 2012
35,965
2
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Vancouver
So you're saying, because they're the minority, and because they have a lot of other games that cater to them, and because you don't agree with their viewpoints, they do not deserve to be given games that contain things they would enjoy without first having those things removed.

...That's the American way, right there. "I don't agree with these people, and I find their ways disgusting, so I will take from them indiscriminately because I am superior."

Sorry, but that's all I'm hearing here. It's classism at best, and a superiority complex at worst.

I genuinely don't mean any offense with this statement, but... honestly, I find that attitude absolutely reprehensible.

Art should not be censored because you disagree with it morally. That flies in the face of everything I believe in, everything America is SUPPOSED to stand for, and everything art DOES stand for. I absolutely will never comprehend how anyone can feel that way, and would suggest we simply agree to disagree on this now, because this entire discussion is starting to genuinely upset me.

-Tom
Saw your edit

"One man's objectification is another man's art" still doesn't put anime boobs (let alone underage anime boobs) on the same value scale as human rights.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Feb 16, 2014
17,263
0
0
33
Arlington Texas
Uh-oh, you're attempting to speak for all women! Don't you know that I have a friend who is friends with a woman who doesn't mind fanservice?

"Equal pandering" is an interesting way to go about it, and I totally get why people argue for it, but I can't say I agree with the idea, at least completely. Pandering for one side just creates more pandering overall, and it doesn't help with the issue of our media still being heavily catered to and designed around men.

At the very least, creators need to know when fan service should be appropriate because hot damn is it peppered in places where I don't think even they realize they put it in.

Though I would totally be on board with, like, Gears of War with a Speedo cheat mode. Or a sexy Super Mutant calendar with mutants just pounding it.

Oh no, that's not my intent D:

I agree with you that there is a time and place for things. That is something that I firmly believe in because too much of something it grows old fast, creates issues and so on. Women definitely do not get nearly enough fan service in games compared to what men get. And yeah, just where are the speedos and assless chaps for the dudes?
 

Cloyster

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
977
0
0
So you're saying, because they're the minority, and because they have a lot of other games that cater to them, and because you don't agree with their viewpoints, they do not deserve to be given games that contain things they would enjoy without first having those things removed.

...That's the American way, right there. "I don't agree with these people, and I find their ways disgusting, so I will take from them indiscriminately because I am superior."

Sorry, but that's all I'm hearing here. It's classism at best, and a superiority complex at worst.

I genuinely don't mean any offense with this statement, but... honestly, I find that attitude absolutely reprehensible.

Art should not be censored because you disagree with it morally. That flies in the face of everything I believe in, everything America is SUPPOSED to stand for, and everything art DOES stand for. I absolutely will never comprehend how anyone can feel that way, and would suggest we simply agree to disagree on this now, because this entire discussion is starting to genuinely upset me.

-Tom

Tom I think most people who say there shouldn't be sexual objectification of underage girls in media is because it's harmful, not because it's gross.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Jul 14, 2009
21,129
1
0
Even if you consider content in a game to be perverted and classless... let the classless perverts have it! They deserve to enjoy their games just as much as the rest of us. And to say that it "taints" the game for the rest of us is no different than saying having someone of a different race, or sexual orientation, taints the neighborhood.

Wow, that's... wow.

Comparing content specifically designed to appeal to people with sexual interest in children to sexual orientation or race is an awful, horribly disrespectful comparison. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the latter two.

It's not even about "censoring boobs" or whatever, it shouldn't exist in the first place. Something like Quiet is ridiculous, but it isn't the same thing because she's clearly not designed to be a child, or appeal to people with interest in children. In the case of the child character in Xenoblade, she was given an outfit that served no purpose whatsoever except to sexualize her. Sure, it's optional, but it's there to support a desire that should be condemned on every front.
 

SeanTSC

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Jun 28, 2013
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There's a scene where she's getting tortured and the camera still chooses to zoom in on her breasts, then there's also the issue of Paz who clearly looks underage and had all this horible shit happen to her yet Kojima still considered it a good idea wearing a questionable outfit as well as having posters like this in the game,

Kojima is incredibly questionable at this point when it comes to female characters. Both are so incredibly out of place thematically that it makes one wonder how someone could not be weirded out by it. Wanna know why i'm not weirded out during a netflix and chill session? Because that shit is way more appropriate for the occasion, a woman irl sitting next to me isn't someone who was designed with the male gaze in mind by a group of middle aged-old men. So that's why I wouldn't be uncomfortable irl compared to a video game so obviously trying to pander to me because i'm a guy.

If you're uncomfortable then you're uncomfortable, fair enough. I still think it's weird, sorry.

As for Paz, she's in her 20s at that point and didn't look all that underage to me. She just has a small body type. Not all women are big and she's not that much different from my 37 year old gf who is only 5'2 and very slim.


And you don't like pandering, great. Many people do.
 
Feb 28, 2009
39,032
2
0
These characters aren't real. They cannot make their own decisions. They are not "women with agency" or "choosing their wardrobe", they are deliberately designed creations with the express intent of titilation for no other reason than for titilation. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't A) heavily skewed towards a male demographic and B) heavily skewed towards women taking the brunt of the fan servicing. They are designed in a mostly male vacuum, from a mostly male perspective, and born in a mostly male dominated corporate culture.

So many of us (mostly men) take for granted just how goddamn pandered to we are, in ways that we don't even think about anymore. How many memes has Miranda's ass from Mass Effect created, and how many other asses have we completely glossed over and not even realize were there, but for a woman was yet another tick mark on the "another goddamn ass" list?

And hell, how many women even notice that stuff? Like I said, we take for granted just how heavily skewed towards male enjoyment our media is. This goes for everyone.

In that case, we should encourage the industry to be even more like Japan, the only region in the world with a large subset of games aimed directly at women and the female gaze.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
25,271
2
0
Philadelphia
So you're saying, because they're the minority, and because they have a lot of other games that cater to them, and because you don't agree with their viewpoints, they do not deserve to be given games that contain things they would enjoy without first having those things removed.

...That's the American way, right there. "I don't agree with these people, and I find their ways disgusting, so I will take from them indiscriminately because I am superior."

Sorry, but that's all I'm hearing here. It's classism at best, and a superiority complex at worst.

I genuinely don't mean any offense with this statement, but... honestly, I find that attitude absolutely reprehensible.

Art should not be censored because you disagree with it morally. That flies in the face of everything I believe in, everything America is SUPPOSED to stand for, and everything art DOES stand for. I absolutely will never comprehend how anyone can feel that way, and would suggest we simply agree to disagree on this now, because this entire discussion is starting to genuinely upset me.

-Tom
But that's the thing is that they're aren't the minority because this is still an industry that caters mostly to a male audience. And concerning this:
they do not deserve to be given games that contain things they would enjoy without first having those things removed.

when talking about stuff like this

absolutely. There's an incredible world of difference between this, and genuine tasteful art. I see genuine art on a daily basis, art that isn't meant for pandering, this is not that.

Wow, that's... wow.

Comparing content specifically designed to appeal to people with sexual interest in children to sexual orientation or race is an awful, horribly disrespectful comparison. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the latter two.

It's not even about "censoring boobs" or whatever, it shouldn't exist in the first place. Something like Quiet is ridiculous, but it isn't the same thing because she's clearly not designed to be a child, or appeal to people with interest in children. In the case of the child character in Xenoblade, she was given an outfit that served no purpose whatsoever except to sexualize her. Sure, it's optional, but it's there to support a desire that should be condemned on every front.
And this as well.
 

KirbYuuYuu

Member
Jan 31, 2011
14,238
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0
I genuinely do not know how to send a message about what we want, since not buying something essentially a loaded statement to them.

I mean at best, them making ps4 games is a start after downscaling hard into handhelds and mobile.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Feb 15, 2011
1,909
2
0
Tom I think most people who say there shouldn't be sexual objectification of underage girls in media is because it's harmful, not because it's gross.

There's no such thing as "underage" when it comes to art. These characters are pixels on a screen, not people. Even "of-age" characters are, in actuality, less than one year old when most of us see them; and on the flipside, characters who've been around for a long time, like Lisa Simpson, are in their 20s.

The age the character is given in continuity is just a number. It's not representative of anything real.

If these were real people, yes, I'd agree it's something that cannot stand. But they're not. And that makes all the difference in the world.

I edited this into my above response, but I'm going to copy/paste it here as well, since it seems a lot of you already replied to me:

This is not about "anime boobs," it's about art. Whether it be fine art, pornographic art, art created from the heart, cash-grab art, racist art, sexist art, etc... it's still art, and it still deserves to be protected and presented as-is. I make absolutely no distinction between the Mona Lisa and Moero Chronicle -- one is certainly more important, but in the end, they are both works of art, and they should both be granted equal respect and equal protection as far as I'm concerned. I would no sooner censor the swimsuits in Xenoblade X than I would draw a mustache on the Mona Lisa, or put pants on Michaelangelo's David. They may be on different levels, but they're all ultimately human creative endeavors, and should not ever be altered by anyone but their own creators.

...And even then, I'd be hesitant to make any alterations if I felt the creators were being pressured into changing their works by outside moral authorities.

This is very much a zero-tolerance policy for me. If the creator put something into his/her work that's tasteless and unrefined, or even downright pornographic... well, that was his/her decision, and that is now an integral part of the final product. If the public cannot accept the final product with that aspect fully intact, then I do not believe the public deserves that final product at all.

-Tom
 
Feb 28, 2009
39,032
2
0
Wow, that's... wow.

Comparing content specifically designed to appeal to people with sexual interest in children to sexual orientation or race is an awful, horribly disrespectful comparison. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the latter two.

It's not even about "censoring boobs" or whatever, it shouldn't exist in the first place. Something like Quiet is ridiculous, but it isn't the same thing because she's clearly not designed to be a child, or appeal to people with interest in children. In the case of the child character in Xenoblade, she was given an outfit that served no purpose whatsoever except to sexualize her. Sure, it's optional, but it's there to support a desire that should be condemned on every front.

Boy, you missed some fun topics recently.

That being said, I agree that there's no issue with changing the Xenoblade swimsuit for international audiences.
 

Cloyster

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
977
0
0
There's no such thing as "underage" when it comes to art. These characters are pixels on a screen, not people. Even "of-age" characters are, in actuality, less than one year old when most of us see them; and on the flipside, characters who've been around for a long time, like Lisa Simpson, are in their 20s.

The age the character is given in continuity is just a number. It's not representative of ANYTHING.

If these were real people, yes, I'd agree it's something that cannot stand. But they're not. And that makes all the difference.

I edited this into my above response, but I'm going to copy/paste it here as well, since it seems a lot of you already replied to me:

This is not about "anime boobs," it's about art. Whether it be fine art, pornographic art, art created from the heart, cash-grab art, racist art, sexist art, etc... it's still art, and it still deserves to be protected and presented as-is. I make absolutely no distinction between the Mona Lisa and Moero Chronicle -- one is certainly more important, but in the end, they are both works of art, and they should both be granted equal respect and equal protection as far as I'm concerned. I would no sooner censor the swimsuits in Xenoblade X than I would draw a mustache on the Mona Lisa, or put pants on Michaelangelo's David. They may be on different levels, but they're all ultimately human creative endeavors, and should not ever be altered by anyone but their own creators.

...And even then, I'd be hesitant to make any alterations if I felt the creators were being pressured into changing their works by outside moral authorities.

This is very much a zero-tolerance policy for me. If the creator put something into his/her work that's tasteless and unrefined, or even downright pornographic... well, that was his/her decision, and that is now an integral part of the final product. If the public cannot accept the final product with that aspect fully intact, then I do not believe the public deserves that final product at all.

-Tom

Okay well girls and people who don't want sex in their games like video games too. What if every video game creator decided to fill their games with nothing but young looking girls in bikinis. Don't you think that would be bad for the industry?

If there were tons of great open games that DIDNT sexualities women and young girls, and games that sexualized men just as much, I doubt many people would complain anywhere near as much.

You aren't a women, and I really think you are showing a significant lack of compassion.

What about the "artistic intent" to hardly ever had important or main minotity characters in basically all media. I'm guessing you're ok with that too

There is nothing about the public "deserving" anything. If they don't want it, they don't want it.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Jul 14, 2009
21,129
1
0
Boy, you missed some fun topics recently.

That being said, I agree that there's no issue with changing the Xenoblade swimsuit for international audiences.

I saw those, I usually don't post in these kind of topics and kind of regret posting here.

I like Tom, but his opinion on art and artistic vision is too extreme for me.
 

kuroneko0509

Member
Oct 14, 2012
10,029
1
0
UK / Malaysia
I saw those, I usually don't post in these kind of topics and kind of regret posting here.

I like Tom, but his opinion on art and artistic vision is too extreme for me.

If I recall elsewhere, XSeed was saying their staff was pretty anti-censorship is basically why we're seeing this passion. I believe Tom was one of the most vocal about it.
 

Cloyster

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
977
0
0
If I recall elsewhere, XSeed was saying their staff was pretty anti-censorship is basically why we're seeing this passion. I believe Tom was one of the most vocal about it.

Of course Xseed is anti-censorship. They make a significant amount of money from games like Senran Kagura and Corpse Party. And they know if a game is censored, their audience won't buy the game. They may really have that moral ground too, but it's no secret it benefits them.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
25,271
2
0
Philadelphia
There's no such thing as "underage" when it comes to art. These characters are pixels on a screen, not people. Even "of-age" characters are, in actuality, less than one year old when most of us see them; and on the flipside, characters who've been around for a long time, like Lisa Simpson, are in their 20s.

The age the character is given in continuity is just a number. It's not representative of anything real.

If these were real people, yes, I'd agree it's something that cannot stand. But they're not. And that makes all the difference in the world.

I edited this into my above response, but I'm going to copy/paste it here as well, since it seems a lot of you already replied to me:

This is not about "anime boobs," it's about art. Whether it be fine art, pornographic art, art created from the heart, cash-grab art, racist art, sexist art, etc... it's still art, and it still deserves to be protected and presented as-is. I make absolutely no distinction between the Mona Lisa and Moero Chronicle -- one is certainly more important, but in the end, they are both works of art, and they should both be granted equal respect and equal protection as far as I'm concerned. I would no sooner censor the swimsuits in Xenoblade X than I would draw a mustache on the Mona Lisa, or put pants on Michaelangelo's David. They may be on different levels, but they're all ultimately human creative endeavors, and should not ever be altered by anyone but their own creators.

...And even then, I'd be hesitant to make any alterations if I felt the creators were being pressured into changing their works by outside moral authorities.

This is very much a zero-tolerance policy for me. If the creator put something into his/her work that's tasteless and unrefined, or even downright pornographic... well, that was his/her decision, and that is now an integral part of the final product. If the public cannot accept the final product with that aspect fully intact, then I do not believe the public deserves that final product at all.

-Tom
Yes but age isn't the only factor, these characters are usually designed to actually resemble younger teens/children yet are sexualized, compared to say Quiet who's face age and height is clearly based off of her actress. Regardless of whether or not they're real people or stylized it's clear what they're supposed to represent, the intent is clear and who the target audience is.

Okay well girls and people who don't want sex in their games like video games too. What if every video game creator decided to fill their games with nothing but young looking girls in bikinis. Don't you think that would be bad for the industry?

If there were tons of great open games that DIDNT sexualities women and young girls, and games that sexualized men just as much, I doubt many people would complain anywhere near as much.

You aren't a women, and I really think you are showing a significant lack of compassion.

What about the "artistic intent" to hardly never have important or main minotity characters in basically all media. I'm guessing you're ok with that too
Exactly, there's so many things wrong with the "artist is always right" argument. And there's still a huge lack of equality when it comes to female protagonists and male sexualization.
 

kuroneko0509

Member
Oct 14, 2012
10,029
1
0
UK / Malaysia
Of course Xseed is anti-censorship. They make a significant amount of money from games like Senran Kagura and Corpse Party. And they know if a game is censored, their audience won't buy the game. They may really have that moral ground too, but it's no secret it benefits them.

I know SK is questionable, but why is Corpse Party put into the same line of thought here? Was there something in Corpse Party that demanded censorship?
 

Cloyster

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
977
0
0
I know SK is questionable, but why is Corpse Party put into the same line of thought here? Was there something in Corpse Party that demanded censorship?

There's a lot of violence and sexual content of high school students so I wouldn't be surprised if it was in danger of it.
 

SeanTSC

Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,719
1
0
38
Washington
Tom -

I know that you mean well and that you have a lot of life experience living in a different culture where things are different and represented in a different way. There's also a lot of grounded logic behind your arguments for art and how it should be preserved and presented.

But it's also an extremely sensitive topic for most people that hits way too close to home - especially in America. There's mountains of abuse that isn't reported and far more people have personal experience with it than we'd all like to admit. It's something we rarely talk about that goes on constantly. There's too much abuse that happens, that isn't even acknowledged at all, for us to just be okay with and accept that art is art is art when it comes to underage kids.

Maybe if we get to a point where abuse is very rare then we can wrap our heads around it and reconcile certain depictions as art, but we are so, so far from that even being remotely possible.
 
Feb 28, 2009
39,032
2
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I know SK is questionable, but why is Corpse Party put into the same line of thought here? Was there something in Corpse Party that demanded censorship?

I mean, there is a hot spring scene in the new one with 14 year olds that look like they're half that age and
one of them teases a main character with her self-proclaimed "raisins"
. I don't know why high schoolers actually look like high schoolers while middle schoolers look like elementary students in this series.
 

kuroneko0509

Member
Oct 14, 2012
10,029
1
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I mean, there is a hot spring scene in the new one with 14 year olds that look like they're half that age. I don't know why high schoolers actually look like high schoolers while middle schoolers look like elementary students in this series.

Oh, I thought it was the first one. I'm not too versed on Blood Drive. First one was just super intense aural violence. It was absolutely unnerving in a horror game kinda way.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Feb 15, 2011
1,909
2
0
Okay well girls and people who don't want sex in their games like video games too. What if every video game creator decided to fill their games with nothing but young looking girls in bikinis. Don't you think that would be bad for the industry?

That's never going to happen, because ultimately, that would lose companies money. And just as society and economics dictate what artists draw to some extent, society and economics dictate what game designers make as well.

There has never been a time, in all of human history, where every artist drew exactly the same thing. And just as artistic periods came and went over the years, so too will this pass and make way for a new trend in time. The cherubic angels will step aside as cubist forms emerge.

If there were tons of great open games that DIDNT sexualities women and young girls, and games that sexualized men just as much, I doubt many people would complain anywhere near as much.

There actually are -- more than ever before, in fact. Not so much in the AAA space (yet!), but look to indies and you'll find some amazingly progressive titles -- stuff like Transistor, Freedom Planet, Knytt Underground, Crypt of the NecroDancer, Ib... I mean, hell, every other indie title released these days features a beautifully developed, well-written female protagonist who's not sexualized in the slightest. And there are many, many more on the way.

There was a time when it was really difficult to find good role models for women in video games, but the number of choices has grown exponentially from what it used to be, and it's continuing to grow every year. Soon, it'll bleed over into the AAA space, and you'll start to see more of the influence of that in Japanese gaming as well as the Japanese gaming industry struggles to catch up with the West.

It may sound naive, but just looking at general trends, I honestly feel like this is a problem that's in the process of righting itself, and I predict that in 5-10 years' time, the industry will be a much more even-handed place with far less objectification of female characters, far more objectification of male characters (for greater balance), and a whole heap more games that strike the perfect balance between the two -- or simply don't objectify anyone at all!

You aren't a women, and I really think you are showing a significant lack of compassion.

Admittedly, I don't have a lot of compassion for the "let's have fewer games that objectify women" point of view, because I don't think reducing numbers is ever the answer. Instead, I think we just need MORE GAMES -- more games that objectify men, more games that equally objectify men and women, and more games that objectify no one at all. Rather than try to limit the number of "offending" titles, let's just get more creative energy focused into making more games to counterbalance them -- at which point, everybody wins, because there's literally something for every possible taste.

What about the "artistic intent" to hardly ever had important or main minotity characters in basically all media. I'm guessing you're ok with that too

I am, because I don't believe in forcing something that doesn't come naturally. I believe that as society grows and matures, the gaming industry will reflect that, and we'll naturally start to see more minority characters, more LGBT characters, more strong non-sexualized female characters, more dudes-in-distress... basically, more of everything that's currently a rarity in modern gaming.

And I believe this because, like I noted above, it's already starting to happen in the indie space. And today's indie game designers are going to be tomorrow's AAA game designers.

Also:

Of course Xseed is anti-censorship. They make a significant amount of money from games like Senran Kagura and Corpse Party. And they know if a game is censored, their audience won't buy the game. They may really have that moral ground too, but it's no secret it benefits them.

While this is true to an extent, it's really mostly just ME who's really militantly anti-censorship. I'm the reason our Senran Kagura releases didn't have the ages of their characters upped to a minimum of 18 (as opposed to just never mentioned), and I actually almost quit my job over that.

Other people at XSEED are far more sensitive to this topic and far more hesitant to depict potentially controversial things without censoring them for American sensibilities. So if you ever see something that you feel is horribly inappropriate and should have been removed, you can probably blame me for it still being there. ;)

-Tom
 
Feb 28, 2009
39,032
2
0
Oh, I thought it was the first one. I'm not too versed on Blood Drive. First one was just super intense aural violence. It was absolutely unnerving in a horror game kinda way.

That's really the only "fanservice" scene, so it's not much worse than the original CP on that front. Hell, you could say it's about as fanservicey as that one scene in the original with Seiko and her brother in the bath. There's really not much to it.
 

Silraru

Member
Dec 24, 2014
151
1
320
If the creator put something into his/her work that's tasteless and unrefined, or even downright pornographic... well, that was his/her decision, and that is now an integral part of the final product. If the public cannot accept the final product with that aspect fully intact, then I do not believe the public deserves that final product at all.

To be honest, I didn't want to argue a lot of the stuff I've read in the last few pages but I just want to point this out: This should be changed to the public does not want the final product at all. Video game and media is a consumer product. If I don't like a product, I don't want it then. Simple as that. Saying I don't deserve a product if I don't like it is rather weird to me. Do I not have a choice? Shouldn't I be able to say no? Why should others tell me I'm undeserving of something I don't even want? Why should the deserving part even factor in if I don't want it in the first place? I just don't get the logic behind this.

Edit: Just want to make it clear, I'm not arguing for or against fan service. Really just saying that logic is weird and not something I get.
 

Cloyster

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
977
0
0
That's never going to happen, because ultimately, that would lose companies money. And just as society and economics dictate what artists draw to some extent, society and economics dictate what game designers make as well.

There has never been a time, in all of human history, where every artist drew exactly the same thing. And just as artistic periods came and went over the years, so too will this pass and make way for a new trend in time. The cherubic angels will step aside as cubist forms emerge.



There actually are -- more than ever before, in fact. Not so much in the AAA space (yet!), but look to indies and you'll find some amazingly progressive titles -- stuff like Transistor, Freedom Planet, Knytt Underground, Crypt of the NecroDancer, Ib... I mean, hell, every other indie title released these days features a beautifully developed, well-written female protagonist who's not sexualized in the slightest. And there are many, many more on the way.

There was a time when it was really difficult to find good role models for women in video games, but the number of choices has grown exponentially from what it used to be, and it's continuing to grow every year. Soon, it'll bleed over into the AAA space, and you'll start to see more of the influence of that in Japanese gaming as well as the Japanese gaming industry struggles to catch up with the West.

It may sound naive, but just looking at general trends, I honestly feel like this is a problem that's in the process of righting itself, and I predict that in 5-10 years' time, the industry will be a much more even-handed place with far less objectification of female characters, far more objectification of male characters (for greater balance), and a whole heap more games that strike the perfect balance between the two -- or simply don't objectify anyone at all!



Admittedly, I don't have a lot of compassion for the "let's have fewer games that objectify women" point of view, because I don't think reducing numbers is ever the answer. Instead, I think we just need MORE GAMES -- more games that objectify men, more games that equally objectify men and women, and more games that objectify no one at all. Rather than try to limit the number of "offending" titles, let's just get more creative energy focused into making more games to counterbalance them -- at which point, everybody wins, because there's literally something for every possible taste.



I am, because I don't believe in forcing something that doesn't come naturally. I believe that as society grows and matures, the gaming industry will reflect that, and we'll naturally start to see more minority characters, more LGBT characters, more strong non-sexualized female characters, more dudes-in-distress... basically, more of everything that's currently a rarity in modern gaming.

And I believe this because, like I noted above, it's already starting to happen in the indie space. And today's indie game designers are going to be tomorrow's AAA game designers.

Also:



While this is true to an extent, it's really mostly just ME who's really militantly anti-censorship. I'm the reason our Senran Kagura releases didn't have the ages of their characters upped to a minimum of 18 (as opposed to just never mentioned), and I actually almost quit my job over that.

Other people at XSEED are far more sensitive to this topic and far more hesitant to depict potentially controversial things without censoring them for American sensibilities. So if you ever see something that you feel is horribly inappropriate and should have been removed, you can probably blame me for it still being there. ;)

-Tom

You're right, Tom. It is Naive.

Change like that does not "come naturally". It has to be fought for. Like people are fighting you in this thread.

If everyone gave up the fight for more minorities in media, it wouldn't just magically happen.

If the fact that your lead is a white male has literally know baring on the plot, changing their gender of ethnicity affects NOTHING. Fuck your artistic intent.
 

KirbYuuYuu

Member
Jan 31, 2011
14,238
0
0
I would assume it's more like one aspect is enough to put someone off. And if a minor aspect is too much for someone, they're seen as fickle.

That one aspect isn't restricted to fanservice, but things like art style, or even console choice.

That's my guess.
 

kuroneko0509

Member
Oct 14, 2012
10,029
1
0
UK / Malaysia
You're right, Tom. It is Naive.

Change like that does not "come naturally". It has to be fought for. Like people are fighting you in this thread.

If everyone gave up the fight for more minorities in media, it wouldn't just magically happen.

There's ways to fight it though in a civil manner versus personal crass attacks, this topic has been civil recently with Tom, along with Crossing posting some level rebuttals. But Shanny and Jumplion speak with disrespect and snark on the matter. In fact, I still haven't see Shanny rebuttal to Tom's reply about Idol Culture, but instead he picks at something else.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Feb 15, 2011
1,909
2
0
You're right, Tom. It is Naive.

Change like that does not "come naturally". It has to be fought for. Like people are fighting you in this thread.

If everyone gave up the fight for more minorities in media, it wouldn't just magically happen.

But... it IS coming naturally.

Seriously, look at the current indie lineup on Steam and GOG. And compare it with the games on offer 5 years ago.

This change is happening, simply because the people who wanted to see it happen most are now making it happen by making the games they always wanted to see.

And those games are catching on. Because people want this diversity. They don't want games to be a boys' club anymore.

Fighting it in the manner displayed here in this topic will not make it happen any quicker or slower. If you want it to happen faster... then go make a game of your own. That's what other people are doing, and it's totally working. And it's really the one and only way it's going to continue happening, IMHO -- lip service won't make any difference, it's programming and creative design that's going to oust the old and replace it with something newer and better.

...Seriously, check out Steam and GOG. It's impossible to miss.

-Tom
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
30,991
13
720
www.metal-archives.com
This makes Idol culture gross enough on its own, and not because of the outfits but rather the attitude towards the entertainers themselves. It's the incredibly creepy "ownership" some fans seem to think they have over people they don't even know that is poisonous. A pop star shaving her head in "shame" for having a boyfriend is disgusting. The message it sends is that apparently it's totally fine for these girls to display their sexuality to satiate the desires of their fanbase, utilizing it purely for others' own entertainment. But embracing it for themselves? That's a no-no.

You say that you think about the girls in your old class and not wanting to stamp on their dream... I'd say it's a pretty fucked up dream when you consider the greater context. Yes, they should be able to wear whatever they want, do what they want, etc. But that's not what they're allowed to do. Instead their sexual identity is apparently owned by their fans.


Bringing this back around to videogames, I see the same problem. I don't take issue with a character like Bayonetta - a character that's unapologetically boisterous about her sexuality. In fact I find her wholly entertaining. Obviously, Bayonetta isn't real - she doesn't make her own choices. She's the result of multiple creative people all piecing together the performance we see in-game. But atleast the way she's presented visually lines up with her personality. The same would go for a character like Eva in MGS3 - an obvious throwback the Bond-girl archetypes of the 007 series, all the while, she manipulates Snake into getting close to her.

The stuff I do take issue with is when the fan-service comes out of nowhere. It's irrelevant to the character, the tone, the story... The creepy sexualization of characters that conflicts with the characters themselves. Why in Lost Planet, on a hellish ice world, does the only female character have her jacket zipped down to expose her cleavage? Why is the shy young girl given an enormous chest and a short skirt? Why is Miranda's ass CONSTANTLY put in the foreground of a shot? Or a character in an RPG wearing a bikini while those around her wear suits of armor? Hell, Tales of Vesperia (while being a game I love) introduces June in a full suit of plate armor, only for her to discard it for little more coverage than a bikini. They even have a line of dialogue about it, claiming it's "for movement" which the plate armor didn't allow for... Hell, even if she'd just said "it's so I can move more, and besides, I think I look damn good in it," I'd be less put-off by how lame and obvious it was.

Don't even get me fucking started on Quiet in MGSV. Kojima had the fucking gall to try and claim that the reasoning for Quiet's design was totally noble and narratively justified. Instead, the camera creepily lingers and pans around on her chest and ass as she holds consistently suggestive poses. Her outfit, while supposedly being justified by the narrative, instead wholly contradicts it based on the logic for previous characters who suffer the same "affliction" she does. Even in scenes of violence or torture, Quiet having a bag over her head doesn't stop the camera from being sure to have her exposed cleavage prominently displayed in the frame.

Hell, even the Ghost in the Shell series, Motoko is a tough, calculating leader, though she doesn't ever play herself as flirty or hypersexual or anything... while also wearing no pants. And even when she does, even in the middle of a tense action scene where everything is super serious, the still shove in a gratuitous close up of her ass. It's ridiculous and takes you out of the whole thing.

Resident Evil Revelations 2's dumb alternate costumes... Or how the latest Fatal Frame had a bikini costume which totally makes sense in the context of the story, displaying the uncomfortable and tragic exploitation of one character, only to later go "HEY, NOW YOU CAN PLAY IN HER BIKINI! OH AND DON'T WORRY, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T APPEAR IN THE STORY, HERE'S SOME LINGERIE FOR YOUR OTHER CHARACTER. BECAUSE REASONS!" Yeahhhh fuck that shit.

I'm a bit of a sexual deviant and love a lot of smut but geeze. I'll find myself rolling my eyes at most types of fan service because of how clear it is with what they're doing. Fan service isn't a requirement or a necessary tool in most things. It's not about having an issue with sex, it's more of how often it's so incredibly stupid, shallow, unfulfilling and pointless most of it is that it serves no purpose in a majority of works that it's tone deaf and makes me criticize the artist more because their vision is a mess with no clear focus.

"Artist's vision" can also be a dumb argument because even an artist can have a blurry vision with no meaning behind it and they'll be the ones to often double down on stupid crap.

EDIT: And yes, I do know sometimes things don't need a meaning behind it, but those that put meaning behind it with stupid stuff are the ones with blurry vision. I also still think the meaning behind the black clothes in FF15 is stupid when it didn't need a meaning other than "they look cool," but then again FF15 has gone through so many changes and gotten new people, what even is the artist's vision of it? It just further illustrates the artist can be wrong and not have a proper vision for something or tries to force a meaning behind something and people will eat it up.
Too tired to post more right now so I just want to chime in and say I support these posts 100%.