twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
And one of the esports jurors works for Breitbart. Seriously.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
SolicitorPirate
Member
I'm very sorry for your experience, but I fail to see how the existence of one injustice means we must let another continue. Even if you perceive hypocrisy in those pushing for more female representation, does that mean their cause is wrong? Some members of the gay and lesbian community have shown incredibly transphobic opinions. Does that mean gays and lesbians are not deserving of equal rights?
LudicrousSpeed
Member
No. Instead, you create a work environment where women can succeed and thrive.
Like, the call of "use the Game Awards as a platform to call on women to increase their numbers in the games industry" is insane. The problem isn't that there's just a pool of qualified women who didn't consider it an option, but that women are turned off by the fucking toxic work environments.
Trying to encourage women to enter the field without fixing the toxicity of the environment first is like cheering for puppies to run into a woodchipper.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If we actually had unlimited resources I imagine we would be doing that. All or nothing is not feasibly possible. Advocating for that is the same as basically saying the discrimination now which is far more wide spread is w/e.
Its not a good mentality honestly.
Trogdor1123
Member
In all honesty I don't know. I do know that art critics that have been in an industry for a long time seem to be able to appreciate and understand art better than new ones and the average person or someone with less experience.
I think you are simplifying their job a fair bit. Well, I hope so at least. I hope some real thought goes into each selection rather than the mentality of the people on storage wars.
Whose opinion would you trust more if you want to get into accounting? An industry professional that has been in the business for 20 years or an upstart?
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
This is an industry full of subjective and often hypocritical views on games being played and less of breaking down the components to the grain and giving a review. If that was the case, then the jurors would just be game designers.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
When did media criticism turn into math?
Those are generally the requirements for judging any sort of awards show.
What I'm saying is that while there is no such thing as a 'wrong' opinion, there can be people who can come up with more well-informed and detailed opinions than others.
Your point makes little sense in the context due to their not really being any real expertise in criticising media especially compared to account.
Trogdor1123
Member
I have not been clear, I apologize. Im not saying we allow either to continue, both are terrible. Diversity, in nearly every instance develops better ideas, eliminates problems, and increases productivity. Another fellow who mentioned infinite resources hit the nail on the head about why its just not possible and he's right, sadly cause one injustice isn't diminished just cause it happens to a different group, its exactly the same.
I just hate it when people scream about one item and brush off the reverse cause its easier to do and that "group" is already advantaged. You either support it in all cases or your sincerity just isn't there. Im not accusing anyone, I want to be clear, of this. Im using proverbial "people".
No need to apologize to me, I make more money now in a different industry lol.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
This thread isn't about the health industry, though. Your point, while important, is a red herring in the context of this thread's discussion.
If you want to start a post on a lack of diversity in certain areas the health industry over on the off-topic board, I'll be right there with you, brotha.
If you want to start a post on a lack of diversity in certain areas the health industry over on the off-topic board, I'll be right there with you, brotha.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
True. Articulating an opinion well is a skill that comes with practice. But this is The Game Awards we're talking about. This is an awards show that has a separate category for independent games in 2015. I don't know if the judges have any impact on the categories, but treating artistic merit like some kind of pseudo caste system is bizarre. Hard to take anyone's opinion seriously at that point.
Trogdor1123
Member
Personally, I would like it if they did have designers, artists, execs, ever part of gaming represented. Just have a conflicts of interest clause and make people abstain. It would really allow lots of vantage points and more serious inspection.
Let me give you an example
Reviewer A and B reviews the same game.
Reviewer A likes the game and explains it by writing an essay.
Reviewer B likes the game and explains it by writing an entire thesis.
Neither are wrong but reviewer B clearly has a much greater understanding of the game he's played than reviewer A and can explain in much more detail the mechanics and themes of the game he's payed and whatnot.
Well that I can agree with.
He's done what is probably the absolute best investigative journalism work in esports (and some of the best in games period)in the last year so he's the absolute most qualified for the position within The Game Awards despite the tag he now writes under. Up until late September he was basically TheDailyDot's main esports writer.
Trogdor1123
Member
Directed at me, yes? I agree that this isn't the place. OT another day. I gots to get back to my budget presentation.
People do realize that indie games aren't confined to that category, right? Undertale runs for best RPG for example
Trogdor1123
Member
Doesn't mean that at all. I just means he wrote more. For it to be true you would require peer review, even then it may be wrong. Length does not equal detail or breadth of understanding.
he writes for a shit rag that's done more harm to the name of investigative journalism than any other single publication i can think of. i don't care if he's literally the patron saint of esports, he shouldn't be considered for inclusion in something like this as long as he works there because it casts a pall over the whole thing.
The inverse is true as well and that's the assumption I was going with.
The problem I'm seeing in this thread is a ton of people don't even want to acknowledge diversity as a factor, let alone assign it a weight. People keep screaming "merit, merit, merit", discounting everything else, in an industry that isn't exactly performance driven. But somehow that's not "forced" because nothing needs to change.
First step is for people to realize that there isn't just one factor. "As long as they are good, who cares about diversity?" is simply not good enough.
Interesting, if true. So it looks like it would have been more proportionally accurate to have 4 or 5 women out of the 32? But it is very possible that each site selected their finest and by happenstance they tended to be the males. Not everything matches up to statistics. The sites themselves have their own issues to deal with, but there's no reason to get upset at the rewards for this from what I can see.
I disagree and am not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because the rag he writes for is does not conform to the way I think. I don't read RLewis's articles since he moved to Breitbart because I don't want to sift through that horror show of a website, but he is one of the most knowledgeable and hard working people for the position he is listed under and that trumps the label you carry with you in my honest opinion.
autoduelist
Member
An organization voluntarily adding criteria is fine. That is not what is being discussed. 'Enforced diversity" would mean said organization -must- have those criteria in place or else be fined, disbanded, etc.
If you create your own organization that judges pumpkins every Halloween, it's your organization and you can chose those judges however you'd like. If the gov't comes in and tells you the judging panel must be diverse, and contain a certain split of gender and ethnicity under the force of fines/disbandment, that is force.
We're discussing the finer points of how to practically get from 'here to there'. That is, if we have lower female representation, then why? How to fix that? Again, the issue is deep -- only 12% of so of CS grads are female. That ultimately means a smaller hiring pool so it's no surprise there are more males in the industry. And so we need to go further back -- why only 12%? And then 'why' for whatever that answer is. The issues are complex, and so are solutions. Mandating, for example, that a private organization must have 50/50 split on some judging panel, or that a company must hire 50/50 programmers despite massively different hiring pool sizes, is not the answer. It's trying to solve a complex issue with a hammer.
This is an extreme situation that I'm not familiar with which makes me hesitant to offer any sort of answer since obviously the problem has complexities I can't possibly be in tune with. In general, and on a high level, I'd recommend a different approach. For education, for example, I'd much rather see scholarships and/or other practices put in place for those affected than fixed quotas. Rather than hiring quotas, provide easy access to small business loans [or grants] as well as additional support in those ventures [access to lawyers, advisors, etc]. Helping someone start their own business [for example] is far superior to telling a business owner they must hire them, or else. Providing free education to those who qualify for it and prove themselves [maintaining grades, etc] is superior to simply giving them a seat. The solution is complex, obviously - money must be found to pay for all of this, but given the severity of the situation [essentially, it sounds nearly genocidal] some amount of reparations are in order. And if quotas are absolutely needed due to the severity of the situation, have them phase out over some amount of time [decades?].
That is to say, create opportunities in as many varied ways as you can think of, rather than enforce quotas. Forcing quotas on people, imo, fosters a very deep racism that can last generations. I grant you that's not an easy problem to solve, and in part that's because of the severe use of force used in the first place. But ultimately this scenario is a far cry from a private group having a judging committee for video games.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Then why even have a category specific to indie games? It's fine if no indie game gets nominated for the main award for a given year. It just means the judges voted for the bigger AAA games more than the indie games. Having a category almost makes it seem like "well, there was no way you could possibly win the real award, so here's this second class award." You could say it's just a perception issue. But I honestly believe the problem is much deeper. Many people believe indie games don't deserve the GOTY award because they're smaller, have lower budgets, and are all around less ambitious. And yet, some of the best and most creative games of the past 10 years are indie games.
When a film is nominated for an Oscar but doesn't win, the production company will still boast about the nomination. Why? Because it speaks to the quality of the film. Even a nomination is a big deal. Not so in games. Only the winners matter here. It's maybe the single most obvious sign that games haven't arrived.
Trogdor1123
Member
Agreed, Merit is incredibly important but its not the soul point. I made that error myself as well earlier in this thread.
This is a good video to prove your point about diversity, in lots of ways, is good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M66ZU2PCIcM
it's not about the site failing to conform to my ideology, it's about them specifically basing their biggest stories on outright lies. breitbart journalism is poison whether you're left or right wing, and no one who works for them should be given the time of day by any group that wants to be taken seriously as a critical or journalistic endeavor.
www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/13/fields-medal-mathematics-prize-woman-maryam-mirzakhani
First woman fields medal winner . Now if I formed a panel of most highly significant and influential mathematicians alive 10 years back it would understandably be very make skewed .
The problem to address the lack of women in the field . If most picked are editors of top gaming sites it's easy to see it's primarily make . Fuck forget that just take a cross section of dev studios making presentations at e3 . I can name 2 Bonnie ross and jade Raymond . Almost every other major studio has a male representation . Should we go about forcing a 50 50 split there too ? They key is addressing the underlying issue .
Plus it would be skewed and then sites pulling out claiming it's too skewed skew it even more props to polygon trying to address it by attending
First woman fields medal winner . Now if I formed a panel of most highly significant and influential mathematicians alive 10 years back it would understandably be very make skewed .
The problem to address the lack of women in the field . If most picked are editors of top gaming sites it's easy to see it's primarily make . Fuck forget that just take a cross section of dev studios making presentations at e3 . I can name 2 Bonnie ross and jade Raymond . Almost every other major studio has a male representation . Should we go about forcing a 50 50 split there too ? They key is addressing the underlying issue .
Plus it would be skewed and then sites pulling out claiming it's too skewed skew it even more props to polygon trying to address it by attending
Guess we'll just agree to disagree, I focus more on the people within the organization than the perception of the organization as a whole. I won't go incendiary on everyone that works for them simply because the large majority puts out garbage work. It's entirely possible for good journalistic work to come out of bad journalistic organizations as long as they hire the right people. I don't know the circumstances under which he joined Breitbart, whether he did it because of his own personal political leanings or not is irrelevant, as long as he's putting out quality journalistic work I value that over where it's coming from.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
No idea what you're saying here.
But we're not talking about experience, simply that the numbers are unfair. We don't know how experienced any of the current judges are, for example.
Please go into detail about how you think the voting process will go down.
Or rather, what to you means more experienced in giving an opinion?
But who exactly is proposing any such kind of force? I don't think anyone here subscribes to that idea. When people used the phrase "forced diversity" in this thread they were simply referring to a private organization voluntarily mandating diversity as a factor. To them even that is apparently "forced", which I find pretty unsettling. Nobody was talking about government mandates or fines until you brought it up. May be I missed some posts?
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It's weird seeing people simultaneously advocate for and disparage the profession.
Because it gives an extra spotlight on how big indie games have gotten and the role they're playing now? I find it really a bit of a stretch to find something bad in it. You could apply this logic to almost every other category "well there was no possibility a RPG would win Goty, so have this second class award"
Again, if that was the only category for indie games to show up, I'd get it, but that's not what's happening
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Saying video games are not rocket science or math is not disparaging. It's the same with movie awards.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Anyone with a functioning brain can be a rocket scientist or a mathematician. You just have to dedicate yourself to it.
Don't ever let anyone tell you not to pursue your dreams.
travisbickle
Member
Also you have to be a man.
Interesting video, but that team was overwhelmingly male. I'm not sure how it supports striving for gender diversity as related to this thread.
The video highlights diversity in general, not necessarily gender. But it drives home the point that it's not always about "bringing in the experts". Their expertise may have no direct relation to the subject. Building a team with all the "best performers" isn't always the best team. In an industry where the content often polarizes opinion between genders, gender becomes a significant factor in the critical assessment of said content. I am of the opinion that the most popular award show in the industry ought to recognize that and strive to find a better balance, even if that means slightly de-emphasizing traditional parameters of "merit"
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
... did you purposefully ignore my point? Because I never said anything about people not doing what they want.
All I said was that nobody is disparaging video games by saying being qualified to judge them is not the same as being qualified for something in math.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Indie isn't a genre though. I get what you mean, but it's not the same. There's no category for AAA, for example. That alone shows how people perceive the relative merits of indie and AAA games. Lets also not forget that only 1 advisor is a game designer (Kojima) and 2 aren't even people (Rockstar and Valve). The rest are execs (of AAA companies).
http://thegameawards.com/jury-and-advisors/
This person gets it. Well said.
jormungand
Banned
I'm more concerned about the knowledge of the jury than their gender or race.
heh
heh
This is more insidious than that kind of open misogyny. Really an unfortunate display of the lack of any knowledge of gender representation issues.
"It's k cause qualifications" is about the least substantial argument one could bring to the table here.
Seriously. If I hear the "I hate diversity for the sake of diversity" spiel again my brain will explode. That's exactly the point of having diversity: differentiation.
What is wrong with having gamers from different backgrounds, ethnicities, and genders judge an awards show? Wouldn't a gaming panel want to have this?
And TWO women? Some of you posters are telling me that there aren't more than 2 women qualified to judge a quasi-reputable gaming show?
Please.
Oh please, it is not insidious or malicious of me to point out that the general reaction to people expressing a desire for more gender representation is open misogyny. I also didn't say: "it's k cause qualifications", I literally didn't say a thing on gender representation here or make an argument about that part of the topic at hand. I was reacting to the misogyny that your post is partially defending here just cause you're offended ( I assume so since you use such a heavy word as insidious) over me finding the misogyny problematic. More insidious? Are you serious?
When you have plenty of qualified female staff at various gaming outlets and only two make it in, that feels off to me. That combined with some of the open misogyny expressed by some in this thread just doesn't sit well with me. And I will express that, whether you like it or not.
Edit: Sorry, misread Sushi's post.
It's basically akin to all the institutionalized racism.
way more
Member
My indifference comes from the idea that the complaint is a bit like attacking the gender diversity of the staff of Harvard campus by examining the make-up of the janitors. But honestly, janitors are more useful to society than video game reviewers.
Similar threads
- Poll