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[Nirolak]

I don't see an issue with the statement.

Generally speaking, development teams are shut down for failure of process, not failure of product.

Failure of process would be things such as shipping a poor quality game, taking way too long to ship a game, and/or spending way too much money to ship a game.

Failure of product would be having your game sell poorly.

BioShock Infinite is an example of a failed process with a hugely successful product. The studio got shut down despite the game shipping over 11 million copies and still being listed as a key IP for the company due to how bad the development process was.

Bayonetta (or many of Platinum's other titles honestly) is an example of a failed product. Platinum Games can still perpetually get work because they deliver products on time, on budget, and generally speaking, with the expected quality.

The reason for this distinction is that a development team that ships on time/budget and on quality can simply be transferred to another IP (or make significant changes to their existing IP) in an attempt to sell better. A developer who can barely ship a game at all, by comparison, is a huge risk regardless of what they're working on, especially since games get perpetually harder to make.

The exception to this is when a company as a whole is going through massive cutbacks, but that's not the case with Square Enix.

You might think "What if the studio can't transition to a new genre if their entire genre is doomed?" Well, that shows up as failure of process at some point along the line where they're shipping 7/10 games in the new genre they're working with.

 

[Phat Michael]

The game is excellent. Absolutely exceeded my expectations. Seems to get shat on a bit here for people content to "wait a year for the definitive version" which is mentioned every 5 minutes.

 

[ironcreed]

It is a hell of a game. They should be happy with it.

 

[Shahed]

is her performance in Rise that good? It was pretty poor in Tomb Raider (2013).

Yeah I didn't like it there. As someone form the UK it sounds like the accent isn't quite right. It seems slightly off and forced, which isn't that surprising because despite being born in England, she's spent a decent amount of time in America before she was fully mature

 

[EventHorizon]

Good point. I should have did the same thing for the old game as the new one.
So let's do that. The first (Tomb Raider) Definitive Edition for Xbox One and PS4 came out in January of 2014 on the 28th.
Lets name off some of the hard hitters for the first quarter that would be stealing people away from playing Tomb Raider.
I will start and stop at the month it calls into, January.

Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition

What, were you thinking there was more multiplatform games out that month?
Nope.
With a month wide open to them, with sales at the best they could be.
Ok, lets be fair, it was near the end of january, right? let's include Feburary.

The Lego Movie Videogame
Strider
Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare (XBO)
Thief
Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes


And this is the point I am trying to make clear.

There is a reason why so many games come out at the end of the year. That is where the money is. So yes a January release date has less competition, but games released then are also fighting over a much smaller pot of money.

 

[AnthonypUK]

Good point. I should have did the same thing for the old game as the new one.
So let's do that. The first (Tomb Raider) Definitive Edition for Xbox One and PS4 came out in January of 2014 on the 28th.
Lets name off some of the hard hitters for the first quarter that would be stealing people away from playing Tomb Raider.
I will start and stop at the month it calls into, January.

Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition

What, were you thinking there was more multiplatform games out that month?
Nope.
With a month wide open to them, with sales at the best they could be.
Ok, lets be fair, it was near the end of january, right? let's include Feburary.

The Lego Movie Videogame
Strider
Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare (XBO)
Thief
Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes


And this is the point I am trying to make clear.

huh? i was on about the potential TR audience with the split 31-69, that's nothing to do with what was released around it.

Week one in the UK it sold 42k on the 31% of next gen audience, add in PS4 at that same percentage if we deem that the "audience" and you'd have seen week one sales of 135k PS4/XONE sales for the UK, is that great, no, not versus the 182k week one of the TR2013 numbers, but with the competition i still think it would be respectable.

How it shook out is due to sony's sparse Q4, PS4 players would have had more incentive to buy TR since there is no big competition for $$'s like Xbox one had with Halo 5 and Forza weeks before, so think it would have performed well on the PS4 had it released.

But that aside, they absolutely should have booted it to Jan/Feb, but then they would have too reverse on their holiday marketing slogan which featured lara.

 

[thefil]

He's specifically not talking about the sales numbers is he?

He 100% cannot. Publishers don't allow devs to talk sales. It's possible he doesn't even know yet.

 

[CosmicQueso]

There is a reason why so many games come out at the end of the year. That is where the money is.

There's also so much money at the end of the year because that's when a lot of the games get released.

One can't really happen without the other.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Bah god, they actually nominated Camilla Luddington for best performance. The absolute madmen.

Indeed, plus, even before taking into account her poor performance, she sounds like an American doing a bad impression of one of the wankers from Made In Chelsea.

She is easily the worst thing about the reboot games.

 

[Bioshocker]

It's a great game, I'm loving it so far. It really deserves better sales than what it appears to be getting.

Hopefully it'll get a revival when released on PC and PS4 next year.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

"Square are happy with Crystal and Eidos Montreal"

From what i heard, no they are not, Square especially, CD were the ones who have the close relationship with Microsoft, and they worked with Microsoft to put the deal to square.

CD pushed that deal? Got a source for that?

I just figured it wouldn't be CD's call.

 

[Dunkley]

I'm glad to hear that! CD definitely seems to have done good work with Rise of the Tomb Raider. Glad Square and Microsoft don't only care about sales when it comes to satisfaction with development teams.

 

[Garlador]

He 100% cannot. Publishers don't allow devs to talk sales. It's possible he doesn't even know yet.

Maybe not specifics, but I've seen plenty of devs with million-selling successful products at least say "we're happy with the sales" or, barring that, "we're happy with the millions of players".

At this point, the writing is all over the wall. They made a great game and it's not selling well. They can be proud of the game they made while being disappointed that everything conspired against it at retail. Tough competition, excluding the majority of your fanbase, pissing that fanbase off, Microsoft dropping the ball on bundles and marketing (multiplatform Fallout 4 got a bigger push than they did...)... It was a perfect storm of bad decisions undermining good developers.

Be proud, but I won't lie. I'm worried about the viability of the series. These decisions slammed the momentum of the franchise to a screeching halt.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Indeed, plus, even before taking into account her poor performance, she sounds like an American doing a bad impression of one of the wankers from Made In Chelsea.

She is easily the worst thing about the reboot games.

I really love Luddington as Lara Croft.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

And so he should be happy with the game they made, its probably going to end up being my GOTY.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

There is a reason why so many games come out at the end of the year. That is where the money is. So yes a January release date has less competition, but games released then are also fighting over a much smaller pot of money.

From 2011-2013, we had a TON of games getting released in the Jan-March window and many of those games were successful.

The Oct-Dec. has a bigger pot of money, but there are also way more hands dipping into it. A good game that is properly marketed will sell regardless of the time of the years its released unless it happens to get released in a timeframe where other games are out that people want more.

 

[Shahed]

I really love Luddington as Lara Croft.

Where are you from? Being from the UK I am definitely not a fan

 

[CosmicQueso]

The Oct-Dec. has a bigger pot of money, but there are also way more hands dipping into it. A good game that is properly marketed will sell regardless of the time of the year its released

Exactly.

I really love Luddington as Lara Croft.

Me too.

I'm English and have spent quite a lot of time with young upper class women, mostly due to living in the countryside and enjoying horse riding.

 

[cameron]

Indeed, plus, even before taking into account her poor performance, she sounds like an American doing a bad impression of one of the wankers from Made In Chelsea.

She is easily the worst thing about the reboot games.

That's exactly what she sounds like. The fake accent is all over the place and it's distracting. Total downgrade from Hawes who is a pro English actress. Others have mentioned the dubs in another language have better performances by the VA.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

The game is excellent. Absolutely exceeded my expectations. Seems to get shat on a bit here for people content to "wait a year for the definitive version" which is mentioned every 5 minutes.

Most of those people you mentioned still think that the game itself is excellent. Just not excellent enough to purchase a second or third console.

I for one think it's the best game for XBOX One. And yes, I still (have to) wait a year for the definitive version.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Where are you from? Being from the UK I am definitely not a fan

That's cute, try to emphasize with Germans.

 

[Stilton Disco]

I really love Luddington as Lara Croft.

You are a terrible, terrible human being and should be ashamed!

Seriously though, I'm English and have spent quite a lot of time with young upper class women, mostly due to living in the countryside and enjoying horse riding. Her accent is just fucking weird, and her delivery is all wrong.

 

[greenegt]

I'm happy with the devs, too. It was just a bad idea to release in a crowded window. Should have held off until January or February.

 

[Parley]

I am buying it because it looks great.

 

[GutZ31]

huh? i was on about the potential TR audience with the split 31-69, that's nothing to do with what was released around it.

It has everything to do with the audience if they are playing other things when it releases.
When the first Tomb Raider released, it was a drought of a gaming month.
This would make people who are not even fans of the series at least think about picking it up.

Now, we have the opposite.
We are flooded with games, and people can't be arsed to hold all these.

BTW, the amount of PS4's in hand will always mean more sales, so that is far from what I am arguing.
I only argue how much of an impact selling Tomb Raider, this quarter, with all these games, on both platforms would be so much greater.

I truly think they picked a horrible month to drop, that is all.

 

[RootCause]

Yeah I didn't like it there. As someone form the UK it sounds like the accent isn't quite right. It seems slightly off and forced, which isn't that surprising because despite being born in England, she's spent a decent amount of time in America before she was fully mature

Well, it seems her performance didn't get any better judging from what I'm reading.

 

[Shahed]

That's cute, try to emphasize with Germans.

Oh I most definitely feel sympathy for you guys. Despite being born here, my parents aren't native, and I also watch media from around the world so it always annoys me when they clearly hire someone who doesn't have the right accent. I's really off putting

The worst I come across is when the accent is from a particular region, but the dialogue, words and even spelling used clearly are at a mismatch. Clearly people haven't done their homework

 

[etta]

Most of those people you mentioned still think that the game itself is excellent. Just not excellent enough to purchase a second or third console.

I for one think it's the best game for XBOX One. And yes, I still (have to) wait a year for the definitive version.

You referring to DLC?

Also, good explanation by Nirolak.

 

[EventHorizon]

There's also so much money at the end of the year because that's when a lot of the games get released.

One can't really happen without the other.

I'm going to say the money comes first since that is the way every other retail product works. All sales go up during the holidays so there is little reason to believe video games are different. It is true that very popular games can create some of their own demand, but the added component of gift giving during the end of the year makes that time of year far more fertile than most. The peaks on that graph I posted could be moved around a little bit but not that much, and definitely not by a game like RotTR.

The point I'm making is that it's simply not enough to compare the competition TR and RotTR faced without also looking at the amount of money traditionally available for video games sales in the month of each release.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Where are you from? Being from the UK I am definitely not a fan

You are a terrible, terrible human being and should be ashamed!

Seriously though, I'm English and have spent quite a lot of time with young upper class women, mostly due to living in the countryside and enjoying horse riding. Her accent is just fucking weird, and her delivery is all wrong.

It sounds like UK natives take issue with the accent. I am not a UK native, so this is not an issue for me.

It's weird, though, because I grew near Boston Massachusetts. Many movies (and games) in the last five years have taken place in and around the city because of its rising popularity.

Boston area accents are notoriously thick and varied. No movie or game that I've seen has ever gotten its local accent correct. But it has never bothered me or anyone I've talked to.

We've all acknowledged that Christian Bale (obviously from Wales) doesn't sound like he's really from Lowell in The Fighter. But we all think it's an incredible performance.

 

[Somnia]

I see nothing wrong with his statement. He is correct that as a developer their goal is to make a high quality product and get it out. It's on marketing and others to "sell" the game.

Obviously everyone is disappointed in the sales #'s, but the studio is in no danger as they made a highly rated, critically acclaimed game that will more than likely keep selling over time.

If TR2013 taught us anything it's that the game keeps selling forever. Plus word of mouth on this game is extremely high which should help it when it comes out on PC and PS4. Obviously they won't be as successful due to the deal they signed, but the franchise and developer are in no danger at all.

 

[kenjigreat]

I don't see an issue with the statement.

Generally speaking, development teams are shut down for failure of process, not failure of product.

Failure of process would be things such as shipping a poor quality game, taking way too long to ship a game, and/or spending way too much money to ship a game.

Failure of product would be having your game sell poorly.

BioShock Infinite is an example of a failed process with a hugely successful product. The studio got shut down despite the game shipping over 11 million copies and still being listed as a key IP for the company due to how bad the development process was.

Bayonetta (or many of Platinum's other titles honestly) is an example of a failed product. Platinum Games can still perpetually get work because they deliver products on time, on budget, and generally speaking, with the expected quality.

The reason for this distinction is that a development team that ships on time/budget and on quality can simply be transferred to another IP (or make significant changes to their existing IP) in an attempt to sell better. A developer who can barely ship a game at all, by comparison, is a huge risk regardless of what they're working on, especially since games get perpetually harder to make.

The exception to this is when a company as a whole is going through massive cutbacks, but that's not the case with Square Enix.

You might think "What if the studio can't transition to a new genre if their entire genre is doomed?" Well, that shows up as failure of process at some point along the line where they're shipping 7/10 games in the new genre they're working with.

Plantinum Games are great . Still waiting for Vanquish 2.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

They should have delayed it once the fallout 4 release date came out.

 

[GutZ31]

They should have delayed it once the fallout 4 release date came out.

Bethesda trying to kill Tomb Raider.

 

[EventHorizon]

From 2011-2013, we had a TON of games getting released in the Jan-March window and many of those games were successful.

The Oct-Dec. has a bigger pot of money, but there are also way more hands dipping into it. A good game that is properly marketed will sell regardless of the time of the years its released unless it happens to get released in a timeframe where other games are out that people want more.

I never said that a game couldn't be successful if it wasn't released at the end of the year. I posted that graph in response to a comment that only took the number of games released at the time of TR and RotTR to explain RotTR's poor sales. It's not that simple of a calculation.

 

[Shahed]

It sounds like UK natives take issue with the accent. I am not a UK native, so this is not an issue for me.

It's weird, though, because I grew near Boston Massachusetts. Many movies (and games) in the last five years have taken place in and around the city because of its rising popularity.

Boston area accents are notoriously thick and varied. No movie or game that I've seen has ever gotten its local accent correct. But it has never bothered me or anyone I've talked to.

We've all acknowledged that Christian Bale (obviously from Wales) doesn't sound like he's really from Lowell in The Fighter. But we all think it's an incredible performance.

I get what you mean, however in those scenarios I'm okay with it. The difference is that it's live acting, There's more to the performance than the voice acting and general tone. The actual screen play with body language, facial expressions and so much more help smooth out the difference for me. Games however aren't at ( or may never be) at the level where the animation and general acting will ever match real life. This combined with the voice that sounds off is what makes it jarring

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The game is excellent. Absolutely exceeded my expectations. Seems to get shat on a bit here for people content to "wait a year for the definitive version" which is mentioned every 5 minutes.

You must be under the false impression that most people have a choice whether to wait or not. Most fans of Tomb Raider clearly do not own a Bone. and furthermore MS and Squenix grossly miscalculated just how many fans of TR do not own nor plan to buy an MS console, which is quite baffling because anybody who has heard of TR knows the franchise literally got started on PlayStation and PC. Guess which platforms RotTR are not available for right now? Yeah.

You would think Squenix might have observed that Final Fantasy was a franchise which got it's start on Nintendo's console and then shifted to PlayStation. After that, it spent many years on Nintendo and Sony handhelds and home consoles. And then suddenly when FFXIII went multi-plat on PS3 and 360, the PS3 version dramatically outsold the 360 version. Despite this historical data from their own company's title less than a decade ago, they still made the financially stupid mistake of accepting MS's passionhats to get exclusivity for RotTR on a platform that TR fans simply do not own or plan to buy.

 

[Lady Gaia]

The feeling is probably not mutual.

The dev team can't be happy with how SE/MS managed the game.

Bingo. Microsoft was happy to be able to tout an exclusive, and they care more about keeping their console marketing going than selling any one title. S-E got their payday from Microsoft, though if I were them I would have been expecting a lot of direct promotion for the title that never materialized.

The developers have to grit their teeth and bide their time to try to reach the mass market. It has to be frustrating.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

Bethesda trying to kill Tomb Raider.

They did not try to but they most certainly did kill Tomb Raider. At least for awhile

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

We've all acknowledged that Christian Bale (obviously from Wales) doesn't sound like he's really from Lowell in The Fighter. But we all think it's an incredible performance.

Maybe the issue is that Luddington isn't a good enough actor to cover for a dodgy accent. Beyond the accent itself there is something incredibly unnatural about her speech patterns, like she's having to think about every syllable for a second before she says it, a sort of input lag between her brain and her mouth.

 

[foxbeldin]

I don't think you understood the post. He/she was asking if the poor sells would lead to SE cancelling the PS4 version. I don't think exit clauses would affect that decision.

How you're right, i misunderstood "pull the plug" as in "release it earlier".

No way they're not releasing it at all.

 

[ArjanN]

This won't be forgotten for years. You will hear and read comments about long lasting franchise damage from now until even after the third game comes out and like it!

Until we have PS and PC numbers i find the people talking about 'franchise damage' hilariously transparent. They might as well just admit to themselves they're mad about having to wait for the game to come to another platform.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Until we have PS and PC numbers i find the people talking about 'franchise damage' hilariously transparent. They might as well just admit to themselves they're mad about having to wait for the game to come to another platform.

Late ports rarely sell well. This entry is extremely damaged for sure, but I can't really speculate on what happens with future games.

Any way good reviews and poor sales are my preferred outcome. Yep I'm not gonna pretend this deal flopping doesn't make me happy. Decreases the chances of a repeat and franchise remains viable as long as SE understands why it was a commercial disappointment. Also makes any other publisher very weary of trusting Xbox with an established IP.

 

[TheCelestial]

I think releasing it alongside Fallout 4 was a mistake as well.

 

[potatohead]

I'm more upset about Ace Combat 6 exclusivity on 360 than I am about this honestly.

Tomb Raider seems like a good reboot, but I haven't been interested in it unfortunately. I'm too tied to the 6th/7th gen formula which I still think is the greatest of the TR series overall.

I imagine TR reboot series are great action games, but that's not what I'm looking for from TR.

I want freaking Ace Combat 6 on PS3 though.... fml lol.

 

[Wereroku]

Until we have PS and PC numbers i find the people talking about 'franchise damage' hilariously transparent. They might as well just admit to themselves they're mad about having to wait for the game to come to another platform.

Late releases almost never sale a significant amount. Bioshock 1 PS3 sales were terrible.

 

[EventHorizon]

If TR2013 taught us anything it's that the game keeps selling forever. Plus word of mouth on this game is extremely high which should help it when it comes out on PC and PS4. Obviously they won't be as successful due to the deal they signed, but the franchise and developer are in no danger at all.

I don't think that applies this time. TR 2013 was a reboot. It was also released at the split between console generations. For example I didn't buy the 360 version and waited for it to come out on the PS4. Those factors aren't in play anymore. The second game after a reboot should build on its predecessor, and there is no impending better version coming up to impede sales. RotTR's sales should be more front loaded than TR 2013.

Also note that next year looks to be an exceptionally packed year for great games. There really doesn't seem to be that much of a lull for RotTR to catch on. The only thing that looks like it would help rebound sales would be a quick and deep price reduction.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Late ports rarely sell well. This entry is extremely damaged for sure, but I can't really speculate on what happens with future games.

I think it depends a lot on the quality of the title. GTAV didn't seem to have any issues with selling when it reached next-gen consoles and PC a year after it's previous-gen debut.

 

[Kacho]

I feel like this game will do very well when it hits PC. I know I'm excited to check it out but I'm not going to bother with it on the Xbox One.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

Sales or not, it's an excellent game. The attitude some of you are showing in these threads is completely unnecessary.