I'm not asking for a technical wonderchild either. And there is always a choice. Nintendo could take a more humble approach, be supportive with development tools and what not. I'm pretty sure if Nintendo would be more open in that regard they could get a few more games out of it. I'm not expecting heaps of games, but an improvement over the Wii U in terms of releases.
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Nintendo Patent Application - Handheld (or controller?) featuring a free-form display
- Thread starter Disorientator
- Start date
The problem is that Nintendo lose out on branding and image to PSX/Xbox. They also don't have first party games like Uncharted/Halo/GoW/Gran Turismo etc. Gamecube sold comparably to Wii U and that had better graphics than PS2 and was cheap, getting to $99 very quickly and having exclusives like Resident Evil, Star Wars Rogue Leader, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles and more. A $399 standard Nintendo console might do ok but it also might fail worse than Wii U. Going after the core market is an uphill battle. Not impossible but far from easy.
If you look at their indie initiative and (looking more into the concrete future) at their brand new Dev Portal and (looking more into an hypotetical future) their involvment with Khronos, it seems such a thing is starting to happen, and it could keep on growing.
Making it a two way street. Nintendo made some huge mistakes while working on Wii U (Like developer support), but Nintendo should be clear in talks with pubs as well. You go all in or don't bother showing up at all. Sounds damn unfriendly, well aware of that, but late/broken/flawed releases should be the exception.
Yep that's the one. Kind of think the patent we got a while back for the "diskless console" is actually a preliminary peek at the cloud helper device.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ntendos-nx-console-may-not-have-a-disk-drive/
This has probably already been asked, but this thread is huge! Either that or it's common knowledge and I am ignorant.
Do patents generally come out so close to release like this (since AFAIK NX is coming out next year)? Is it reasonable to assume this actually has to do with NX?
This question also applies to the daisy-chaining patent!
Do patents generally come out so close to release like this (since AFAIK NX is coming out next year)? Is it reasonable to assume this actually has to do with NX?
This question also applies to the daisy-chaining patent!
I haven't really thought far into the fusion Wii remote gamepad thing. My initial thinking was for a traditional controller.
I still don't know about the D-pad, but in the traditional control scheme, I suppose it could be placed underneath the stick.
Papacheeks
Banned
Did you read my whole post? I never said KB/mouse were the be all. I was just commenting on accuracy of certain games. I talk about using controllers for button response. And analog give you better control for maybe third person camera and control of character's. But KB/mouse trumps for first person experience.
Controller's especially analog are great for ease of use. StevieP was making a point about current controller's. I don't think Wii mote was the innovation he think's it is. For it's time in experimenting yes, but do you see future gears of war, or something along those lines using those type of controls in the future?
I don't, what I do see are maybe hybrid controller's like what razer makes being maybe a facet for having more accuracy in console gaming, or just a different approach all together.
Some games like you stated work well with analog, such as driving games, and I would say also games in third person camera's where you control the character's actions, such as rolling, climbing etc.
But good luck having a competative RTS game like STARCRAFT using a anaolog controller. It just won't work, even if they simplify like Halo Wars did control wise. Total War has so many units and micro managing going on, it would be close to impossible unless there was a keyboard/controller hybrid kind of like what razer makes THE Nostromo.
Anything that requires aiming is improved by ANY control scheme that offers a pointer. Be it a mouse, wiimote IR or even gyros. This would include gears of war. IR is simply the best currently available console implementation of a pointer.
Even if I'm not really a fan of VR, that's where motion controls are. Motion controls also come in many formats using gyroscope and accelerometers which many of these devices will use along with other motion tracking tech. The Wii remote was a big innovation for the industry and showed that this is viable and people can accept it. It's disappointing some devs don't utilize gyro as much as they could, even on PS4 which the controller supports, because people can accept it and even use it like with Splatoon or first person mode in Wind Waker HD, OoT and MM on Wii U and 3DS.
Bad design choices? I don't know I'm not working at Nintendo.
If you're implying they couldn't have persued a more progressive architecture AND had a neat USP then we just fundamentally disagree.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
This is never going to happen because I along with the rest of the gaming world already have similar products in the PS4/Xbone and will continue to do so. A $200-$250 box to house all of their unique ideas and first party games would be a better buy IMO.
Absolutely. Wasn't there a rumor about a lower buy-in price for this console? I'm thinking $200 console, $150 handheld, $300-$325 if you opt for a package with both.
Fourth Storm
Member
Yeah, I would definitely welcome a wireless nunchuck that works along with this. I don't know about more refined haptics just yet. I've seen some demonstrations on Youtube over the last few years, but it doesn't seem to have taken off. Can't really comment on that sort of tech without trying it first hand, ya know? In theory, it's very cool, but they can do alot more than they have been recently even with traditional motors. I hope they go for the dual motors this time, as detailed in that other recent patent. Nintendo have traditionally included only one, correct?
Everything else I pretty much agree with. They should definitely take advantage of the freedom the screen provides and allow user configurable virtual buttons. This patent mentions something about storing recent actions in memory, which may be getting to something like that. I love the symmetry of this controller. I'm not a lefty but the DS and Wii Remote were wonderful for those who are.
For a game like Mario on this, you could make a very simple control scheme where you tap anywhere on the right of the controller to jump. A little vibration for feedback might be enough. Then you have the right stick for fireballs, running or whatnot. Or they could do it the other way around. It would not feel as good as 2 physical buttons, but there wouldn't be any confusion and you'd never have to look down at the controller. Also, they can do alot of things with swipes and other touch gestures, especially if they go w/ a capacitive touch screen.
I don't think there's a perfect configuration that provides both simplicity and all the inputs core gamers expect. In the patent, they talk about the immersion provided by the additional screen real estate. Specifically, the analog sticks would be hidden from view by your own thumbs. It's kind of like our arms and hands obstruct our field of view in everyday life. Also, I'd imagine the more holes they want in the screen, the more complex the design, and the higher the cost of the screen. I think they'll stick with 2 holes in the display. Maybe they'll release a controller shell (shades of the Circle Pad Pro) with a dpad and four face buttons. Or maybe they'll just keep supporting Wii Remote Plus and Wii U Pro Controllers. Or maybe they'll do both (probably the best option, imo).
Sticks are serviceable for 2D platformers and whatnot. Sure, I prefer a dpad there too, but if I had to make a choice, I'd roll w/ analog sticks over a dpad. They're simply useful in more genres today.
Thanks for valuing my input! I really enjoy these discussions. So yeah, the buttons behind the controller I would basically have exactly like the B Trigger on the Wii Remote. That way, it could be used like a Wii Remote in vertical orientation and if you place the controller in this theoretical shell (I know I know, but again, there's no perfect solution here), they could very easily have triggers in the traditional Wii U Pro orientation using plastic buttons that come into contact w/ controller's B Triggers (think of how the Wii Zapper does it basically).
Exactly. Throw in support from Indie devs and make it lucrative for Japanese publishers like Square Enix, Level 5 and Koei-Tecmo and they'll have a sure thing going. A $300+ box from Nintendo will do them no good, not when like you say, there are PS4s & XBox Ones about.
catpurrcat
Member
This is the way to go. Aim for the niche market of dedicated fans and parents, sell cheaper than an iPad, robust accessible software, downloadable (ie buy codes at retail), one OS for mobile and home, and actually support the VC from day one.
And then sell like shit, because no one wants a niche secondary console. Niche products get niche sales.
catpurrcat
Member
Not sure if they would go with two SKUs right away. For fear of fragmenting the market plus much higher marketing costs (including have to shell out big $ for more prime retail shelf space alongside what's left of WiiU and the still doing well 3DS.
I could see home console 2016, portable coming 2017.
Eh its only 45 million or so sold. the gaming world last gen sold about... 280 million units counting Wii, even discounting it, it was 170 million. still lots of people out there. so why just throw in the towel? they have to start somewhere repairing their relationships and rebuilding.
Besides, I have no ps4/xb1 yet. I ALMOSt got a PS4 but realized i can play most of those games on my PC. a nintendo platform is appealing to me because i'd have all their 1st party games, and probably buy 3rd parties too depending on the game.
catpurrcat
Member
True, but look at iPhone. Like 12% of the world market but like 90% of the profits. Granted iPhone isn't "niche" but 12% is quite small, and it shows the power of a dedicated happy fan base, ready to spend.
Profit is what matters.
Software attach rate, subscription fees, DLC (incl amibo) and accessories are where the dollars are at.
They could sell 30 million NX but if everyone buys 1 amiibo a year plus a handful of games for 4 years that's not bad at all in terms of profit.
The last thing they should do is try to compete head to head with ps/x1, as it will never be a GTA/COD/Netlfix box.
Fourth Storm
Member
Another cool "gimmick" possible w/ this screen which may have been mentioned, is (assuming the controller is just the elliptical part--no grips) they can have an image of the in-game object you're supposedly holding on the face. Make it a gun, a light saber, a flash light, etc. A little touch that takes what Sony did w/ Move's orb a bit further.
But at the same time, they wouldn't want to spread the two out too far. The latest I can see one of the NX form factors releasing in is Spring 2017, & that's assuming the other form factor launches in Holiday 2016. And given the markets worldwide, it'd probably be the NX Handheld first in Japan & the NX Console first in the West....assuming they stagger the releases.
Refreshment.01
Member
Here's an example of that from months ago:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=157959382
There's also a variety of ginmick uses:
- For example, you can lift the controller near the eye sight and simulate looking through an scope to aim.
- Or simulate the appearance of the object been interacted with in the game like a keypad, a safe dial or a couple of maracas.
- The touch screen can have some linear motion in the Y axis to detect the amount of pressure been applied with a touch or gesture. This would be a way to modify basic inputs.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
And who gives a fuck as long as it making a profit..? They getting money from plenty other places.. seems like some of yall just want it to sell crazy just so yall can go comment and cheer in NPD threads or some shit
I want the left stick to stay. If the steam controller track pad can be a good enough replacement for camera control then I wouldn't mind losing the right stick,but I'm wary. Some TPS games which don't need fast camera movement I quite like controlling the camera with an analog stick - it can be comfortable for slow adjustments in heading while walking etc. A mouse can be a little too abrupt. If the steam trackpad can be tuned nicely to cover that, then the right stick could go.
I mean long way around this is all about the question what is it more likely Nintendo can pull off, getting the core (and I say getting rather then getting back because a good hunk of the modern core audience came in with the PS and later the Xbox) or the expanded audience.
With the core they face that making something in the same power range as PS4 is arguably too little too late for this Gen so they would need to have an early next-gen system, well not being too expensive. they would need to not only get a competitive online system together but they would have to drop the use of things like Miis for something well cooler. good luck that ever happening. And they'ed need to push aside any game that smacks of "kiddy" to the background.
At the end of the day first the Wii and DS, then mobile and even to some degree indies have shown their is a market for games with simple controls (Not the same thing as a simple game mind you.) And Nintnedo has always inclined that way, we just never noticed because back in the day the SNES was a complex controller and it's only when you notice "Hey the N64 has only two buttons designed to be face action buttons" and then the GC comes along and we get complaints that seven buttons, two sticks and a d-pad is not enough that it become obvious.
Nintendo will never get either core gamers or the maker of core games to sign up on the "Let's have simple un-intimidating controllers with fewer buttons!" but I think that's why we see them doing so much with indies, there they can find people who will willingly restrict themselves to the NES controls and with mobile an audience that responds well to simple controls.
Now I won't claim it's a sure thing they can get the expanded audience back. The Wii U clearly failed to offer them much as it turns out slapping a screen on modern twin stick controller is not the same thing as the DS's "put a touch screen on a SNES controller" in terms of making the controller seem inviting, and their new software for the expanded audience lacked the push, new ideas and feeling of being a main effort their releases through the early to mid Wii and DS had.
It might simply be too late to get them back. Or maybe nothing they did would have gotten them to stay around. Either path, go core, go expanded is a gamble at this point. The expanded feels more like something Nintendo and it's love of family friendly vibes and simple controls would fit more naturally with, but I can't say for sure that in and of it's self makes it the safer bet.
Whatever Nintendo does it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.
With the core they face that making something in the same power range as PS4 is arguably too little too late for this Gen so they would need to have an early next-gen system, well not being too expensive. they would need to not only get a competitive online system together but they would have to drop the use of things like Miis for something well cooler. good luck that ever happening. And they'ed need to push aside any game that smacks of "kiddy" to the background.
At the end of the day first the Wii and DS, then mobile and even to some degree indies have shown their is a market for games with simple controls (Not the same thing as a simple game mind you.) And Nintnedo has always inclined that way, we just never noticed because back in the day the SNES was a complex controller and it's only when you notice "Hey the N64 has only two buttons designed to be face action buttons" and then the GC comes along and we get complaints that seven buttons, two sticks and a d-pad is not enough that it become obvious.
Nintendo will never get either core gamers or the maker of core games to sign up on the "Let's have simple un-intimidating controllers with fewer buttons!" but I think that's why we see them doing so much with indies, there they can find people who will willingly restrict themselves to the NES controls and with mobile an audience that responds well to simple controls.
Now I won't claim it's a sure thing they can get the expanded audience back. The Wii U clearly failed to offer them much as it turns out slapping a screen on modern twin stick controller is not the same thing as the DS's "put a touch screen on a SNES controller" in terms of making the controller seem inviting, and their new software for the expanded audience lacked the push, new ideas and feeling of being a main effort their releases through the early to mid Wii and DS had.
It might simply be too late to get them back. Or maybe nothing they did would have gotten them to stay around. Either path, go core, go expanded is a gamble at this point. The expanded feels more like something Nintendo and it's love of family friendly vibes and simple controls would fit more naturally with, but I can't say for sure that in and of it's self makes it the safer bet.
Whatever Nintendo does it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.
catpurrcat
Member
catpurrcat
Member
+1.
A quality profitable gaming experience and loyal fan community is a recipe for success today. Especially given that nintendos first party output is stellar.
Again, the Apple experience, and even Steam, shows this to be true.
Of course actually asking for feedback from 3rd parties and enacting changes is something they should prioritize. And from what we've heard so far, it is something that they're not just giving lip service anymore.
I didn't even think about connecting that to the cloud device patent.
...Probably you already found the solution to the problem. Thanks to that setup, the free-form screen could just include the two circle pads on it right in the places shown by the patent: perfect for thumbs of both hands when the screen part is hold as the controller. I suppose that would be the main controller, included in every NX home pack (+ the Nunchuk), it'd satisfy both mass and "core" needs:
- if you want a more traditional experience (even if not completely traditional, but enhanced by the free-form screen), here's the controller with handles, the free-form screen with two circle pads and the buttons/D-Pad/(wheel)shoulder buttons on the shell of the controller.
You have all the buttons you need, but there's more, since you can arrange supplementary buttons in any way you want/you're most comfortable with (action buttons, help buttons), or you can get guide images to understand what both analogs do. Also, let's suppose the image is between the two analogues, not including them (it's in the patent). That would allow not only different supplementary buttons configurations, but customisations for those part too: general themes, game-specific themes, etc.
- if you want to play a game in an even more immersive way, just detach the screen from the controller, and...here we go, here's the brand new Wiimote. Behind, there would still be the B trigger, and possibly another button as well. Since the patent mentions the possibility to click on the analogs to trigger actions, I suppose that could compensate the lack of the A button compared to the Mote. Thanks to the screen, what was the Wiimote's strength (the immediacy, the simplicity to just jump in the game and play) would be back, alongside the other possibilities of immersion and of wonder that a screen can offer when combined to motion controls. A remote that would allow more than "just" motion controls: maps, menus, touch buttons, even messages from friends while playing? There are many possibilities.
The Nunchuk wouldn't differ too much from its Wii version, including presenting another analog pad.
Fourth Storm
Member
I actually had a very similar concept that I drew up from the time we first heard the Wii successor would include a touch screen. I dubbed it the "Magic Mirror" controller.
So yeah, I think it's a cool idea, but ultimately the tech wasn't there when I was imagining it and it seems a bit more complicated than what Nintendo want at this point.The other idea I had recently was a motion and pulse sensing watch that uses the Sharp Free Form tech. It would have been used in conjunction with a standard Wii U Pro and had one big "Win" button in the middle along w/ gesture controls and whatnot. I still think the idea of things like that supplementing your traditional controls would be immersive.
Fourth Storm
Member
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote there. The only thing I keep coming back to is...how much I dislike the feeling of the "clicky sticks" currently on the market. It would be awkward to make Mario jump or run this way. They need to make it feel softer, like your typical face button, when the stick is depressed. They could use circle pads and that might be slightly easier to implement, but then I imagine some wasted space around the perimeter of them to accommodate the sliding. Not to mention analog sticks (make them grippy or concave pls) are just a better input method.
Seriously, somebody should boot Mario up on an emulator and try setting "A" to R3 on a 360 or Xbone pad. Tell me how it is. lol.
Actually wait, you could try this on Wii U VC, couldn't you? (Edit: Just tried. You can't. Wii U limits your assignment options)
Edit: D'oh. Meant to edit that into my last post. Sorry, folks!
Trevelyan9999
Banned
The last sentence of the patent can't be restated enough:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0355768.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0355768.html
This patent (published 10th Dec) was interesting. Seemed to be giving a bit more info on some of the finer details of the "parent" and "child" device (as they seem to be calling it)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0352443.html
Edit: NVM, it's an old one referring to spotpass.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
Found the gif. I'd be down for something like this (more buttons and bigger screen)
Now, if the screen was also foldable you could keep the clamshell design and make a DS that had it's entire inner surface be a screen.
Samsung just announced a foldable smartphone I believe. Not that far fetched, but I doubt it's in Nintendo's plans right now.
TheXfactor
Member
i feel like samsung just never does well when they try something new, they always introduce it in such a boring way.
I must admit, I really do not understand this, the concept of it, and without understanding what it is, I cannot understand what the point is.
A free-form screen that wraps around the surface of the controller. contextual touch screen 'buttons'. I really don't get it. I don't even understand the technology behind it.
breakitdown for me GAF!
A free-form screen that wraps around the surface of the controller. contextual touch screen 'buttons'. I really don't get it. I don't even understand the technology behind it.
breakitdown for me GAF!
Well we're all just speculating here. It's not supposed to be fully understood by us, its just a patent after all.
Candescence
Member
Yeah, patents can be vague, general and overall difficult to decipher. But we can try and at least get a general idea of what the patent is trying to convey:
- May be a controller or a handheld device
- Free-form screen that covers the entire surface, possibly oval-shaped
- Both physical and virtual controls, screen setup would probably have a regular 16:9 or what have you space in the center with the rest of the screen basically being 'peripheral vision' or a border
- Buttons/paddles on the back ala Steam Controller/XBone Elite is possible, as are the 'mouse wheel' shoulder buttons from a previous patent
- The screen might be 3D like the 3DS
- The controller/handheld might also have a card slot
- For a controller, the Wii U functionality is preserved in a smaller and much less bulky package, roughly the size of the Vita, or a wider DS4, basically
- Physical controls can be labelled on-screen to assist users with identifying button functions, which would go a long way towards helping casual players, without covering up the main screen space
- At least two extra buttons on the grips, enough said
- Devs who don't want to widen the resolution can just replace the peripheral space with borders, which would be a pretty neat visual thing on its own
Can someone make a mockup using the Vita as a base to properly demonstrate what a free-form screen handheld/controller would actually look like?
Disorientator
Member
Nope
I believe that's a continuation of older patent applications, which talk about data exchange between devices (aka Streetpass).
Check out the original from 2004 here.
Good spot, yeah it's old. My bad.
Nope
Good spot, yeah it's old. My bad.
Mine as well. I got excited and should have taken a closer look.
It's easy to do when we're scraping around for scraps of info 😄
I would guess they will give some haptic feedback when you hit one of the 'buttons', but this is still going to be a hand-cramping nightmare.
I like the idea of a screen on top of a controller, but the lack of physical buttons is a bad idea. I would be OK with buttons that can show information - like a picture of a potion or weapon etc. As a player, I don't want to look at the controller unless I have to, and when I know I need to hit the X or Y, I know where that is and what it feels like without looking. No buttons means you can't play by feel, and that is a non-starter for me.
I like the idea of a screen on top of a controller, but the lack of physical buttons is a bad idea. I would be OK with buttons that can show information - like a picture of a potion or weapon etc. As a player, I don't want to look at the controller unless I have to, and when I know I need to hit the X or Y, I know where that is and what it feels like without looking. No buttons means you can't play by feel, and that is a non-starter for me.
Graphics Horse
Member
I know it's only an example but I don't think Nintendo would have a problem if the system only had 4 primary buttons (2 shoulders and 2 on sticks), Wii remote has 4 main buttons either held horizontally or by adding a nunchuck. Add smear control to replace motion and you're good. Some 3rd parties might disagree of course.
The point is to give a handheld a larger screen than it would normally be able to contain, by using holes built into the display for them to connect physical controls though, clicky sticks being the main example. I think that's it really.
The point is to give a handheld a larger screen than it would normally be able to contain, by using holes built into the display for them to connect physical controls though, clicky sticks being the main example. I think that's it really.