• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

Status
Not open for further replies.
Anyone else find it odd how easily Captain Phasma (lol) gives up? I thought for sure she was either gonna alert the base or refuse to let the shields down or something... She seemed like she would rather die than betray the First Order.
 

golem

Member
Theory we kicked around a little on Full of Sith:

What if the Knights of Ren are fellow students of Luke's that Kylo & Snoke turned? What if part of what has Luke so fucked up that he went into exile is that he had to basically kill his own students - except he can't bring himself to take out his own nephew?

Could not only explain why Luke looks kinda/sorta out of his fucking mind when Rey finds him, but could explain why we don't see any other Knights of Ren but during the vision.

Yeah thats kinda what I assumed too, although I wonder how many of the Knights are still around besides Kylo
 
  • More interestingly and what is another direct parallel to Obi-Wan is during the fight with Kylo and Rey starts 'meditating', it draws directly from the image of Obi-Wan 'meditating' and becoming more powerful than Vader in ANH when he strucks him (here the first notes of the Force theme once again play).

That reminded me more of Qui-Gon's meditation in his fight with Darth Maul.
 

Renekton

Member
Except the multiple times the camera focused on Ren hitting his own side during the fight to slow the bleeding?
That was in between.

He has to be showing signs of pain or weakness while actually clashing sabers with her, showing his fighting ability hampered.
 

Veelk

Banned
If you are going with that angle, there was no cinematic emphasis showing his fighting ability actually being hampered by the injury (e.g. like wincing from abdomen pain during a saber clash).

Because there doesn't need to be. Fights in Star Wars don't get won by superior muscle, but by the users emotional state and resolve. I made a post on Rey vs Ren earlier in the last thread that basically explains my perspective on it

I think I'm going to bow out of the debate, since it's getting pretty late and this is one of those fanboy debates that could go on until a participant collapses on their computer out of weariness and dehydration.

Instead, given that there are 2 main points of contention about Ray's capabilities, I will address them as best I can.

The Mind Battle

Okay, here's what we know about the force with regards to the mind: It works through it, so if someone is weak willed, they will succumb to the powers of mind suggestion. If they are strong willed, they don't. That is all the explanation we are given in the originals and as far as I can remember, since then. What Ren seemed to be doing was an elaborate version of that, battering down minds until he gets the suggested. Theoretically, his could take him a great deal of time, and is dependent on weakening his victims. For all we know, taking the information from Poe could have taken numerous attempts that we just didn't see because that'd have fucked up the pacing.

However, Ren has also been greatly strained by the movie at this point, with many doubts resting on his unstable mind. With Ray, she had just gotten in, and just woke up. She's perfectly okay, and naturally strong willed and strong in the force. Given enough time and attempts, she probably would have succumbed, but it's not so unbelievable that she would be able one of the few able to hold off one force mind attack, compared to Poe, who is also probably strong willed, but also has just seen his village exterminated, lives ruined, and knowing he's probably going to die. Poe's badass, but he's had his life flipped over in a desperate struggle for a last ditch effort that he lost in battle. Compared to him, Rey is stronger, better rested, and in better morale, while also being strong with the force, against a more unstable Ren. She wouldn't have held out forever, but it's not impossible that she could fend off one attack, but Rey managed to escape before attempt 2 could be started.

The Final Battle

A lot of people have been focused on speculating about Kylo Ren's abilities and training and fighting condition. But I think we've been forgetting one very important thing: Emotional stability is the largest key to victory in a force battle (assuming high ground isn't available). Obiwan only lost the fight with Vader not because Vader outclassed him, but because he deliberately allowed himself to take a hit so he could become a ghost that haunts Luke. He was the more emotionally stable of the two, and he was perfectly matched with Vader. And it should be noted that Luke was at the height of his power when he talked to Vader in RotJ, while Vader was at his weakest when he was torn between wanting to play the dark side part and loving his son. The emotional stability burned him up, and Luke finally bested him when he was fully focused on protecting someone he loved: his sister. Momentarily, there was no conflict there. It's only when he realized that he was his father did he put down his lightsaber, and then he was downed by the emperor's lighting. Because it was a sneak attack, perhaps, but it was also by coincidence a emotional struggle for him to decide whether to be angry and protect his sister, or be merciful and save his father.

So lets ask: How is Kylo Ren feeling at the time of the battle? Dude just stabbed Han Solo, his own dad, with his flaring lightsaber and looked into his eyes as he died and fell away. He couldn't even do it himself, he had to have his father 'help' him. If he was unstable before, what about now? I doubt that his struggle is over by any measure. If anything, he's even more anguished by the thought. The problem is that the dude has sentimentality and he knows it and he thought killing his father would kill it, but it didn't. Half the time of through the fight he looks like he's holding back the biggest pain in his face, beating his wound almost like he's punishing himself, perhaps believing that pain gives him strength.

Meanwhile, people call bullshit about Rey being reminded of the force being the key to her winning, but.....well, isn't that how it's always worked with Luke? Rey is introduced as a character looking for identity. She wants to believe that her family will come back for her, but being so dependent on a connection that will never return left her as this random scavenger in this random desert world, with no body there to be with. Her only relationship there was her bringing parts to that one scumbag. Her only identity is as a lost scavenger. Her character development has been about finding her roots as a pilot and now as a force user. That was what the entire episode with the orange lady yoda was about. And then, she constantly used the force to escape the First Order's base. So when she remembers that she is a force user, she is finally taking the mantle of her new identity as a Jedi to heart, and that is empowering....emotionally, and therefore, as far as the force is concerned, physically.

Ren is better trained and a better fighter, but he is at the absolute weakest of his abilities right now due the freshness of his patricide, while Rey has just been symbolically born anew. That's what tipped the odds in her favor.


Ren can maintain all the fighting posture he likes. Star Wars, especially when it comes to matters of the Force, don't live off physics. If you are more emotionally resolved and stable, you're gonna win.

That said, if you want to insist on it, he WAS hurt, and the fact that he has a good poker face doesn't change that dude just got blasted with the bowcaster, had Finn get a good hit in, and is mentally all over the place which is a factor in whether your force sensitive or not. So yeah, he had a bunch working against him, including the thesis of the series narrative.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
If you are going with that angle, there was no cinematic emphasis showing his fighting ability actually being hampered by the injury (e.g. like wincing from abdomen pain during a saber clash).

He's just describing what the film showed and put visual emphasis on during the fight: Kylo was hurt. Rey was not. It was a factor in the fight - but not the deciding factor.
 

OrochiJR

Member
Liked the film very much, mostly it was the quality I expected/ hoped it to be. There are however two minor problems I had:

First, was anyone else a little dissapointed that they got Iko Uwais and Mad Dog from The Raid and have them NOT do any martial arts action and job to this huge facehugger immediately? What a shame... Was still cool to see them though.

Second, after Kylo Ren removed his mask the character immediately got a "I'm an angry teenage kid that's pissed at his father for not letting me play with the cool kids from the dark side" vibe for the rest of the movie. I have seen nothing of Adam Driver's work before, but my first impression was that he looked a lot like Zach Braff from Scrubs and I projected Braff's wimpy qualities from that show onto Kylo Ren. Also he acted like a teenage brat with an anger problem in some scenes. But I guess that kinda is what the character is supposed to be. Hope he grows more badass in the following movies.
 
The one thing that kinda annoyed me at the end was the amount of stare shots. I noticed it first during the Han Solo - Kylo Ren scene on the bridge where the camera just keeps switching between their 2 faces for like 10 times, it was really overdone there...and then the exact same thing happens at the end! The whole close up of Rey's face, cut to close up of Luke, cut back to Rey, cut back to Luke...happens like 7 or 8 times and would look really silly if it wasn't for the music.

"Would look really silly if there wasn't for the music (and badass sound effects)" is Star Wars in a nutshell.
 
I liked the movie but I found that there was not enough explaination. Some roles felt arkwardly small: Max von Sydow, Mark Hamill, Gwendoline Christie, the guys from "The Raid" in that freighter-scene etc.

It was a huge buzz who was all in this movie and now for only these small scenes?
 

Forkball

Member
One plot point I haven't seen people really speculate about is that Leia mentions Luke went off to find the first Jedi temple. Is that where he is at the end of the movie? What could even be at the first Jedi temple that would help him? A book titled, "So You Want to Use the Force..."? I think digging deep into the history of the Jedi and Sith could be interesting. Snoke's theme when the ominous chanting definitely gives off a "ancient evil" vibe. A lot of early artwork with the Emperor in the OT does have some imagery of stone structures and exotic writing.
 

Brakke

Banned
I really don't understand why people are having issue with Rey's skills at the end of the film. I think it's pretty clear she had already began her training as a Jedi when she was a small child and that some kind of mind tick has been placed on her to make her forget her skills in the force for her own safety. I think the clue to this is in the title of the film 'the force awakens' I think this means it's been asleep in Rey and her powers have finally woke up

That's definitely not "pretty clear" in any kind of way.

I'm more on team refuse-to-acknowledge-that-theory because amnesiac protagonist is video game / anime bullshit and it isn't interesting.
 

duckroll

Member
Anyone else find it odd how easily Captain Phasma (lol) gives up? I thought for sure she was either gonna alert the base or refuse to let the shields down or something... She seemed like she would rather die than betray the First Order.

I never really got the sense in the film that anyone in the First Order would rather die than betray them. For all the Nazi overtones, the actual organization feels largely as one of common interest rather than mindless devotion.
 
Theory we kicked around a little on Full of Sith:

What if the Knights of Ren are fellow students of Luke's that Kylo & Snoke turned? What if part of what has Luke so fucked up that he went into exile is that he had to basically kill his own students - except he can't bring himself to take out his own nephew?

Could not only explain why Luke looks kinda/sorta out of his fucking mind when Rey finds him, but could explain why we don't see any other Knights of Ren but during the vision.

Sith follow *The Rule of Two* thousand of years, one master, one apprentice, i doubt Snoke would break that rule...the rule is part of their core beliefs..
 
Why are some people so disappointed with that chrome Stormtrooper? It's not like they had a major role or anything. They seemed to just be a sergeant and likely evil by how Finn acted.
 

Brakke

Banned
I never really got the sense in the film that anyone in the First Order would rather die than betray them. For all the Nazi overtones, the actual organization feels largely as one of common interest rather than mindless devotion.

that being a common interest in...?
 

Syriel

Member
The One and Done™;189960521 said:
Why are some people so disappointed with that chrome Stormtrooper? It's not like they had a major role or anything. They seemed to just be a sergeant and likely evil by how Finn acted.

Pre-release marketing had hyped her up a bit. People thought she would have a bigger role in the film.
 

nib95

Banned
That cliffhanger ending though. Luke better have a major role in episode 8. what a cocktease.

Mark Hamill at The Guardians of the Galaxy premiere.
mark-hamill-uk-premiere-guardians-of-the-galaxy-02.jpg

Mark Hamill at The Force Awakens premiere (where arguably he looks even slimmer than he was in the movie).


I reckon he's doing some fighting at some point.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Anyone else find it odd how easily Captain Phasma (lol) gives up? I thought for sure she was either gonna alert the base or refuse to let the shields down or something... She seemed like she would rather die than betray the First Order.

Yes. I was honestly shocked when she did what they asked. I figured they were going to subvert the whole "captured drone does their bidding gag" by having her just alert the entire base through the computer console at which point they knock her out and figure out how to lower the shields themselves.
 

Renekton

Member
Because there doesn't need to be. Fights in Star Wars don't get won by superior muscle, but by the users emotional state and resolve. I made a post on Rey vs Ren earlier in the last thread that basically explains my perspective on it

Ren can maintain all the fighting posture he likes. Star Wars, especially when it comes to matters of the Force, don't live off physics. If you are more emotionally resolved and stable, you're gonna win.
I think this is us manufacturing handicaps for him. If going by the earlier cinematic emphasis angle, it didn't attribute him being emotionally-wrecked affecting his fighting ability either, even less so than the bowcaster hit.

The emotional stability burned him up, and Luke finally bested him when he was fully focused on protecting someone he loved: his sister.
No way he was calm and focused for that, he was mad pissed as the emperor observed.

He's just describing what the film showed and put visual emphasis on during the fight: Kylo was hurt. Rey was not. It was a factor in the fight - but not the deciding factor.
It didn't show his fighting ability being hampered. Main movie characters fight at 100% power while injured, unless the movie clearly showed his ability weakened from it (pain during a swing, etc).
 
Yes. I was honestly shocked when she did what they asked. I figured they were going to subvert the whole "captured drone does their bidding gag" by having her just alert the entire base through the computer console at which point they knock her out and figure out how to lower the shields themselves.
yeah I thought that was 1:1 what was going to happen
 
I liked the movie but I found that there was not enough explaination. Some roles felt arkwardly small: Max von Sydow, Mark Hamill, Gwendoline Christie, the guys from "The Raid" in that freighter-scene etc.

It was a huge buzz who was all in this movie and now for only these small scenes?

I'd bet we see more Max von Sydow in a future flashback. There is obviously going to be more Luke. Keeping him off screen adds a bit of mystery. The Raid dudes will probably show up again as other fighting/stunt characters. I think the freighter scene was just giving them a cameo to get their faces in the film.

I have to imagine there will be more Phasma. Maybe a disgraced Phasma becomes a bounty hunter with a grudge?
 
lol I just now saw that Simon Pegg was in the movie? Completely missed that. Did he play an alien somewhere?

He was Unkar Plutt, the guy who handed out the portions, and owned the Millennium Falcon before Rey stole it.

Making Simon Pegg the caretaker of the two most iconic spaceships in pop-culture.
 
The One and Done™;189960521 said:
Why are some people so disappointed with that chrome Stormtrooper? It's not like they had a major role or anything. They seemed to just be a sergeant and likely evil by how Finn acted.

She's JJ's favorite character
 

duckroll

Member
that being a common interest in...?

Opposing the Republic for "reasons" I suppose. It just feels to me that the people working in the First Order are working there like some military job, rather than being crazy suicide bombers or whatever. When things go bad, they tend to bail.
 
Knights of Ren more like Knights of When (are they gonna actually do something?).

I'm curious as to who Benecio Del Toro could play in Episode VIII. A lot of people assume he will be a villain, because Del Toro looks like Del Toro, but there's already a number of villains established. Episode VIII will have Ren, Snoke in probably a bigger role, Hux, and Phasma is probably a bigger role. I'm not sure where you could shove another villain in there, or what he would do.
Make him a space gangster like Jabba. That'd be awesome.
 

injurai

Banned
What makes you think Snoke isn't a Sith master?

I think both the Sith and Jedi lineages have been effectively broken, and have more or less rebooted. Where there is much more ambiguity in the force, perhaps like early times when the force was first being explored. It makes sense given how Luke is trying to seek out the original temples, and also a passing comment by Maz on the many incarnations of force followers through time.
 

nib95

Banned
She's JJ's favorite character

Phasma was one of the very few issues I had with the film. Such an amazing looking, but horribly underutilised character. Did they have to cut some of her scenes to shorten the movie or something? She just contributed nothing at the end.
 
What makes you think Snoke isn't a Sith master?

What makes you think he is?

He doesn't call himself Darth anything, for one.

There's also Abrams flat out stating there aren't any sith in the movie.

The First Order's entire M.O. is that the Empire had the right idea, but the wrong execution. Why would its leader stick to the failed, dead-ended religion that died when the Empire did?

These guys believe in tapping into the Dark Side, but not in the same ways their predecessors did.
 

Syriel

Member
Opposing the Republic for "reasons" I suppose. It just feels to me that the people working in the First Order are working there like some military job, rather than being crazy suicide bombers or whatever. When things go bad, they tend to bail.

The Stormtroopers were said to be taken as children and indoctrinated since birth. Those who didn't comply were re-educated. They had numbers instead of names.
 
Pre-release marketing had hyped her up a bit. People thought she would have a bigger role in the film.

She's JJ's favorite character

So the reason for the disappointment is that people expected more? Interesting....

After being burned alive by the prequels I didn't expect anything. In fact I went into full media blackout mode. I feel it made the experience in the theatre much more special.
 
Whether Snoke is Sith or not, does it make any difference?

What do Sith have that other users of the dark side don't? Apart from "Darth" in their name that is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom