CastleRybread
Member
100 percent agree. It's why my PS4 doesn't get near the use my Xbox One does.
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Opinion: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
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100 percent agree. It's why my PS4 doesn't get near the use my Xbox One does.
YianGaruga
Banned
I wasn't.
CollectedDust
Member
While it is not as good as the PS3 remote, I wouldn't call it complete garbage. My main issue is that it puts itself in sleep mode, but I've already gotten in the habit of tapping the ps button to wake it up.
jeff_rigby
Banned
onQ123 and I have been researching HTML5 and coming media features offered by ATSC 2 and 3.
Sony files patent to make commercials into video games. This is an example of XTV coming with ATSC 2 &3 as well as HbbTV using gestures..
Everything is pointing to this including a consumer having to sign-in to a TV like we need to do with the Game Consoles. This because with multiple people in a living room the TV has to know who is in control or multiple kids raising their arms to control the commercial will confuse the TV.
YianGaruga
Banned
that just proves my pointonQ123 and I have been researching HTML5 and coming media features offered by ATSC 2 and 3.
Sony files patent to make commercials into video games. This is an example of XTV coming with ATSC 2 &3 as well as HbbTV using gestures..
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes and no. ATSC 2 is coming on-line now so a 2012 patent for XTV can't be implemented till 2016 not that it won't be used. The delay in implementation is confusing everyone. If you see in examples, Sony thought ATSC 2.0 would be implemented years ago. It's been delayed so long that some are questioning even implementing ATSC 2. Problem for the FCC and everyone is that the FCC wants to sell spectrum to Cell phones but the industry was counting on the h.264 and h.265 codecs allowing more channels in the bandwidth that is left. Transition to ATSC 3 which is incomparable with earlier TV will need the same channels broadcasting with ATSC 1 and or 2 and ATSC 3 at the same time.
DangerMouse
Member
Eh. Not to me, like CollectedDust said there's just one thing that's nagging about it but you can work around it, and it's way better than that shitty little square one with that usb receiver piece that needed to be plugged into the system that came out during the first year.
Doesn't it work via your TV? So the harmony sends command to TV, which passes it via HMDI CEC?
I'd quite like a combination of PS4 and XB1. I'd like the IR receiver of the Xbox one so I can use a harmony remote, combined with the HDMI-CEC of the PS4 to turn on/control attached receiver/TV etc.
Pestilence11
Member
No offense to the OP but I'm surprised the thread title wasn't changed.
boredandlazy
Member
Logitech Harmony remotes and HDMI CEC don't really play nice together in my experience. Mainly because the Harmony remote is supposed to keep track of appliance power states and which input everything is currently set to. HDMI CEC screws all that up.
Not sure if it's already been brought to the discussion, but I've found this excerpt regarding Ultra HD Blu-ray discs in the latest specifications:
And regarding compatibility with previous players:
So, in case people still doubted it, UHD-BD discs clearly use the same physical specifications as those from 66/100 GB BDXL discs, the BDA didn't reinvent the wheel.Blu-ray Disc Format - 4th edition said:
And regarding compatibility with previous players:
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes it's been covered and more but thanks for being one of the few that actually does research for yourself. The drive is "almost" the same but the player has to handle the new media and DRM. UHD requires a version 2 blu-ray drive which is a modern blu-ray drive complying with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper which means it can read BDXL disks and MAYBE can handle inverted track information if the Sony 2010 patent is implemented for UHD Disks; that would require a minor firmware update.
FYI the PS4 drive according to Sony can read BD-R disks so it complies with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper which makes it a version 2 drive.
There is a UHD licence category for Game Consoles
There is no such thing as a UHD drive and confirming the first information in your post are these:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=184653854&postcount=229
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188528645&postcount=250
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Yeah. I mean, at this point the thread could easily be misleading lurkers.
We really should have it changed.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
Dude, the official documentation for the format says "NOPE". Let it go.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Where does it say that?
RedAssedApe
Banned
lol...you don't know jeff_rigby do you. he's probably still posting about ps3 web browser update
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup, HTML5 <video> EME MSE is the basis for Ultraviolet, ATSC 3 and parts of 2, Vidipath, UHD Blu-ray digital bridge, ooVoo and Miracast. It makes Playstation Vue easily possible, Game Streaming easily possible, cloud apps easily possible and more.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154557853&postcount=91
V_V
jeff_rigby
Banned
Reading through some official HEVC whitepapers and some facts surfaced that we might find interesting.
1) HEVC decode requires 1.5 times more GPGPU than h.264 and HEVC is designed with parallel computing in mind and has terms used like Wavefront which is a GPU/shader parallel compute term =GPGPU.
2) HEVC profile 10 (UHD TV and Blu-ray) is 10 bit
3) There is a HEVC 3D and multi stream codec coming in addition to 12 bit sometime in the future (Paper is from late 2013). Multi-stream is needed for 4K IPTV and Antenna TV's world wide ATSC 3 where multiple HD streams are in one HEVC encrypted channel or sporting events with multiple HD streams.
onQ123 has posted on ARM GPU and DPU blocks similar to Xtensa DPUs being used for Codecs and OpenVX, which points to software based codec accelerators there too not fixed function HEVC codecs.
1) HEVC decode requires 1.5 times more GPGPU than h.264 and HEVC is designed with parallel computing in mind and has terms used like Wavefront which is a GPU/shader parallel compute term =GPGPU.
2) HEVC profile 10 (UHD TV and Blu-ray) is 10 bit
3) There is a HEVC 3D and multi stream codec coming in addition to 12 bit sometime in the future (Paper is from late 2013). Multi-stream is needed for 4K IPTV and Antenna TV's world wide ATSC 3 where multiple HD streams are in one HEVC encrypted channel or sporting events with multiple HD streams.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=916219 Both Microsoft and Sony know that HEVC is an evolving standard. The HEVC codec in the XB1 and PS4 is a Xtensa DPU, a parallel processor block (GPGPU) that acts as an accelerator for a Software based HEVC codec that can be firmware updated. Most articles assume a fixed hardware HEVC CODEC is being used for efficiency and a fixed hardware accelerator for HEVC was not available when the PS4 and XB1 were launched so it can't support HEVC. AMD has said that the same HEVC codec in the XB1 is in AMD products and we know that the AMD UVD is an Xtensa DPU. Xtensa DPUs are extremely power efficient as they are designed for Handheld battery operation.http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-orbis-unmasked-what-to-expect-from-next-gen-console said:
onQ123 has posted on ARM GPU and DPU blocks similar to Xtensa DPUs being used for Codecs and OpenVX, which points to software based codec accelerators there too not fixed function HEVC codecs.
https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/mvhevc said:
jeff_rigby
Banned
Summary and new information ( For PC drive listed below) which still indicates the following:
1) There is no such thing as a UHD drive, it's a modern version 2 drive that complies with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper. So any modern BD-ROM drive can be a version 2 drive if it can read a BD-R disk and UHD requires 4X read speed. There is a quote on this forum stating that PCs will not need a special drive to support UHD Blu-ray. The PS4 documentation says it can read BD-ROM and BD-R while the XB1 says it has a BD-ROM drive. (The Sony 2010 Patent for a version 2 drive states that a version 1 drive could read a version 2 disk with firmware update but maybe not reliably; PS3 has a version 1 disk.)
2) We know that the PS4 has a custom HDMI port that can support up to 120 FPS and HDCP takes place in the Southbridge TEE. There is a 2013 quote from a Sony employee that the PS4 supports a HDMI 2 port. (Firmware update-able to HDMI 2)
3) HEVC requires 1.5 times the GPGPU that h.264 requires and both the XB1 and PS4 have dedicated blocks of GPGPU compute using Xtensa DPUs and Microsoft has announced the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10. They do not mention it will be used for UHD blu-ray but for Netflix UHD IPTV.
AMD subsequently announced they use the same hardware to support HEVC in their APUs and dGPUs (Xtensa DPU in the UVD). Xtensa DPUs can support openCL (GPGPU), OpenVX (Vision processing), Video and audio processing.
4) UHD IPTV, Ultraviolet, Blu-ray and ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV world wide 2018 in Korea) use the same software stack (same HEVC Profile 10 and HTML5 browser with W3C extensions). If you can support one you can support all.
5) There is a UHD Blu-ray test player for game consoles to use. It confirms that there are plans for Game Consoles to support UHD blu-ray. The PC UHD BD-ROM listed below is explained and essentially requires the Player to support; BD ROM Mark, AACS 2 and BD+ which are not part of the drive but the player.
Between the PS4 and XB1 they have all the building blocks and the life of both consoles was known to overlap UHD in all it's forms. Sony has never broken the console model allowing major features in a revision that the first version couldn't support with a firmware update.
In addition to the thread in this forum there is one in NeoGAF.
So why did Ito when pressed on the PS4 supporting UHD Blu-ray say that the PS4 drive can't read three layers and there is no HEVC codec in the PS4. My best guess is NDA as from late 2013 there has been no word from either Microsoft or Sony on UHD blu-ray in the XB1 and PS4. Just before release, employees of both companies made the statements in this post and sonicyogurt's.
Ito may be technically correct in that HEVC as a software codec using Xtensa accelerators may not be in the PS4 YET and the PS4 blu-ray drive may require a firmware update to read an inverted track if the 2010 Sony patent for a version 2 drive was implemented.
Both Sony and Microsoft have media plans for Antenna and Cable TV support and Sony started Get TV (antenna TV) and Playstation Vue. Bandwidth and caps require using HEVC for 1080P streaming.
For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.
[HTML5 app written by the Cable company using Sony's passage and network tuners to ?emulate a Vidipath Cable TV DVR?. The Sony job posting makes more sense with this proposal
Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.
The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed third row down, third column from the left. These two tuners were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript. HTML5 TV tuner Control will work for both Cable TV and Antenna TV.
ATSC 3 will use the same modulation scheme (QDFM) that cell phones use and the US Antenna TV frequencies being sold to Cell Phone companies are upper band TV UHF. The leaked Xbox 720 hardware slide (Device specific IO bottom right) has cell Phone hardware (HSDPA is an enhanced 3G (third-generation) mobile-telephony communications protocol) which was thought to allow wireless VR using a cell phone but it can also support ATSC 3. ATSC without extension could be 1&2 or 3 or all. XTV support is mentioned multiple times and XTV starts with ATSC 2 and will also be in ATSC 3. Microsoft has announced support for a Antenna TV 1080P DVR; 1080P is only available with ATSC 2.
1) There is no such thing as a UHD drive, it's a modern version 2 drive that complies with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper. So any modern BD-ROM drive can be a version 2 drive if it can read a BD-R disk and UHD requires 4X read speed. There is a quote on this forum stating that PCs will not need a special drive to support UHD Blu-ray. The PS4 documentation says it can read BD-ROM and BD-R while the XB1 says it has a BD-ROM drive. (The Sony 2010 Patent for a version 2 drive states that a version 1 drive could read a version 2 disk with firmware update but maybe not reliably; PS3 has a version 1 disk.)
2) We know that the PS4 has a custom HDMI port that can support up to 120 FPS and HDCP takes place in the Southbridge TEE. There is a 2013 quote from a Sony employee that the PS4 supports a HDMI 2 port. (Firmware update-able to HDMI 2)
3) HEVC requires 1.5 times the GPGPU that h.264 requires and both the XB1 and PS4 have dedicated blocks of GPGPU compute using Xtensa DPUs and Microsoft has announced the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10. They do not mention it will be used for UHD blu-ray but for Netflix UHD IPTV.
AMD subsequently announced they use the same hardware to support HEVC in their APUs and dGPUs (Xtensa DPU in the UVD). Xtensa DPUs can support openCL (GPGPU), OpenVX (Vision processing), Video and audio processing.
4) UHD IPTV, Ultraviolet, Blu-ray and ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV world wide 2018 in Korea) use the same software stack (same HEVC Profile 10 and HTML5 browser with W3C extensions). If you can support one you can support all.
5) There is a UHD Blu-ray test player for game consoles to use. It confirms that there are plans for Game Consoles to support UHD blu-ray. The PC UHD BD-ROM listed below is explained and essentially requires the Player to support; BD ROM Mark, AACS 2 and BD+ which are not part of the drive but the player.
Between the PS4 and XB1 they have all the building blocks and the life of both consoles was known to overlap UHD in all it's forms. Sony has never broken the console model allowing major features in a revision that the first version couldn't support with a firmware update.
In addition to the thread in this forum there is one in NeoGAF.
So why did Ito when pressed on the PS4 supporting UHD Blu-ray say that the PS4 drive can't read three layers and there is no HEVC codec in the PS4. My best guess is NDA as from late 2013 there has been no word from either Microsoft or Sony on UHD blu-ray in the XB1 and PS4. Just before release, employees of both companies made the statements in this post and sonicyogurt's.
Ito may be technically correct in that HEVC as a software codec using Xtensa accelerators may not be in the PS4 YET and the PS4 blu-ray drive may require a firmware update to read an inverted track if the 2010 Sony patent for a version 2 drive was implemented.
Both Sony and Microsoft have media plans for Antenna and Cable TV support and Sony started Get TV (antenna TV) and Playstation Vue. Bandwidth and caps require using HEVC for 1080P streaming.
For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.
[HTML5 app written by the Cable company using Sony's passage and network tuners to ?emulate a Vidipath Cable TV DVR?. The Sony job posting makes more sense with this proposal
Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.
The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed third row down, third column from the left. These two tuners were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript. HTML5 TV tuner Control will work for both Cable TV and Antenna TV.
ATSC 3 will use the same modulation scheme (QDFM) that cell phones use and the US Antenna TV frequencies being sold to Cell Phone companies are upper band TV UHF. The leaked Xbox 720 hardware slide (Device specific IO bottom right) has cell Phone hardware (HSDPA is an enhanced 3G (third-generation) mobile-telephony communications protocol) which was thought to allow wireless VR using a cell phone but it can also support ATSC 3. ATSC without extension could be 1&2 or 3 or all. XTV support is mentioned multiple times and XTV starts with ATSC 2 and will also be in ATSC 3. Microsoft has announced support for a Antenna TV 1080P DVR; 1080P is only available with ATSC 2.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Currently there is no economy of scale for dedicated UHD blu-ray players but the XB1 and PS4 low power hardware to support HEVC is also used for vision processing (openCL or openVX) for VR and Voice/audio. They have an economy of scale and can include hardware and software that is amortized over millions of consoles.
There is no difference in the drive cost between HD and UHD blu-ray as they use the same that a 2012 or later HD blu-ray would use. The player and drive firmware just has to follow new stricter DRM rules now needed for HD (1080P coming with ATSC 2 and the Cable TV Downloadable security scheme require a TEE and Playready 3) also.
Cost of a PS4 without UHD = cost of a PS4 with UHD support. I don't understand why no one sees this.
If the XB1 or PS4 can support one of the coming 4K media delivery schemes they can support all. I've shown that Microsoft planned to support ATSC 2 (1080P, S3D, NRT, DRM and XTV) and ATSC 3 (1080P S3D, NRT, DRM, XTV, 4k and Mobile TV to Cell phones/Cars ) provably since 2010 with their next console (Xbox 720/XB1). The FCC will likely mandate ATSC 3 support in Cell Phones for Emergency alert. With that should come wired HDMI2 (Displayport LVDS in Yukon) and wireless connection supporting Cell to TV at bandwidth to support 4K. Those in turn support the bandwidth needed by wireless VR glasses which is also in the leaked Xbox 720 coming a few years after the console's release. Is no one seeing this?
There is no difference in the drive cost between HD and UHD blu-ray as they use the same that a 2012 or later HD blu-ray would use. The player and drive firmware just has to follow new stricter DRM rules now needed for HD (1080P coming with ATSC 2 and the Cable TV Downloadable security scheme require a TEE and Playready 3) also.
Cost of a PS4 without UHD = cost of a PS4 with UHD support. I don't understand why no one sees this.
If the XB1 or PS4 can support one of the coming 4K media delivery schemes they can support all. I've shown that Microsoft planned to support ATSC 2 (1080P, S3D, NRT, DRM and XTV) and ATSC 3 (1080P S3D, NRT, DRM, XTV, 4k and Mobile TV to Cell phones/Cars ) provably since 2010 with their next console (Xbox 720/XB1). The FCC will likely mandate ATSC 3 support in Cell Phones for Emergency alert. With that should come wired HDMI2 (Displayport LVDS in Yukon) and wireless connection supporting Cell to TV at bandwidth to support 4K. Those in turn support the bandwidth needed by wireless VR glasses which is also in the leaked Xbox 720 coming a few years after the console's release. Is no one seeing this?
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
Are there any good HDMI 2.0a cables for PS4 and not expensive?
jeff_rigby
Banned
The key difference is the UHD player looking for the BD-ROM Mark encrypted burn on a commercial UHD BD-ROM Blu-ray disk. The player is not allowed to play the commercial UHD media (Games too) unless it's there.
BD+ and BD-Rom Mark are an additional DRM released in 2007. "Only licensed BD-ROM manufacturers have access to the equipment that can make these unique ROM Marks, thus allowing authentic BD-ROM media like movies and music to be identified.[1]"
The ROM Mark contains the Volume ID required to decrypt content encrypted using AACS. AACS version 2 optionally requires a on-line connection to a server plus the BD-ROM Mark. In all cases the BD+ Virtual machine is running in a TEE with stricter DRM.
In order, the License restrictions for UHD Blu-ray
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content-protection/content-protection-rom4.php
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf
Picture of a disk with the BD-ROM Mark on the inner circle = these marks ||| || |||| | ||
There is no UHD drive, it's a modern Version 2 blu-ray drive that can play HD & UHD disks. Version 2 BD-ROM drives follow the 2010 BD-R whitepaper specs and can read BD-R XL disks or three layer 100 GB disks that can contain UHD media. The commercial UHD player can only read a BD-ROM disk that contains the BD-ROM MARK. Non Commercial 4K media is supported on all disks as BD-R even if it's a pressed BD-ROM disk? I think that is the point of your post, the format of the 4K media so that the player can play it should be the same as HD except for the HEVC codec.
BD+ and BD-Rom Mark are an additional DRM released in 2007. "Only licensed BD-ROM manufacturers have access to the equipment that can make these unique ROM Marks, thus allowing authentic BD-ROM media like movies and music to be identified.[1]"
The ROM Mark contains the Volume ID required to decrypt content encrypted using AACS. AACS version 2 optionally requires a on-line connection to a server plus the BD-ROM Mark. In all cases the BD+ Virtual machine is running in a TEE with stricter DRM.
In order, the License restrictions for UHD Blu-ray
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content-protection/content-protection-rom4.php
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf
Picture of a disk with the BD-ROM Mark on the inner circle = these marks ||| || |||| | ||
There is no UHD drive, it's a modern Version 2 blu-ray drive that can play HD & UHD disks. Version 2 BD-ROM drives follow the 2010 BD-R whitepaper specs and can read BD-R XL disks or three layer 100 GB disks that can contain UHD media. The commercial UHD player can only read a BD-ROM disk that contains the BD-ROM MARK. Non Commercial 4K media is supported on all disks as BD-R even if it's a pressed BD-ROM disk? I think that is the point of your post, the format of the 4K media so that the player can play it should be the same as HD except for the HEVC codec.
Adam Tyner
Member
As far as we know, it's not. I don't know why the title hasn't been updated to reflect that the thread is speculation and conjecture.
Who are you responding to? The only recent post other than yours is a guy asking about cables.
Edit - oh, nevermind, you're copying/pasting a response to a post that isn't even on this forum.
jeff_rigby
Banned
There you did it; "As far as we know, it's not." The title of this thread is a reaction to the several threads on NeoGAF stating that the PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray. It's an effort to discover and educate. If you want to change the title to:
There is no hardware restriction in the original PS4 and XB1 supporting UHD Blu-ray AND the same hardware and software stack will also support 4K IPTV and the coming world wide 4K TV (ATSC 3) and UHD Blu-ray digital bridge that will be implemented during the life of the XB1 and PS4. In 2013 a Microsoft employee stated the XB1 would support UHD Blu-ray and a Sony employee stated the PS4 had a HDMI 2 port which is only necessary for 4K media. The True Audio and vision processing hardware (Xtensa processors) in both the XB1 and PS4 can also do Codecs as witnessed by the AMD UVD able to do both since 2010 and AMD stated the same hardware to do HEVC in the XB1 is in AMD GPUs,
go for it but I prefer the PS4 will be a UHD Blu-ray Player
Again; there is a test player for Game Consoles I cited above. You don't address this other than to respond to my stating what will happen if the XB1 supports UHD blu-ray and the PS4 doesn't. What does the XB1 have that the PS4 doesn't or vice versa to support UHD Blu-ray? One or the other has to support UHD Blu-ray for their to be a test player!
If you notice I have again debunked Ito's statement that the PS4 drive can't read a UHD Disk and at the same time provided information that many readers don't have. It becomes clearer that the drive is not an issue the more you look into what a UHD Player requires. If you go only by Microsoft stating the XB1 has a BD-ROM drive and the PS4 has a BD-RM drive that can also read BD-R and you are informed that a modern version 2 BD-ROM drive can read BD-R you might think the XB1 can't support UHD Blu-ray as version 2 drives can read BD-R 4 layer.
Hey MODs, Should I start a thread stating the PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray but the XB1 won't supported with the last two points?
It's about time for a professional to write an article outlining the info in this thread. Are they ignorant, chicken or what?
jeff_rigby
Banned
I suspect there is a NDA between Sony, Microsoft and AMD on UHD Blu-ray support. That is tied to a roadmap where enough UHD disks and AMD Carrizo and dGPUs with UVD 6 are on the market for Microsoft to announce UHD Blu-ray support in Windows 10. They must have a TEE and trusted boot.
The same applies to OpenVX support and True audio being used by Games. AMD, XB1 and PS4 have the hardware to support both but developers aren't going to use them until more PCs can support it.
Intel has a APU that can support HEVC profile 10 but it must use the GPU while Carrizo can use Xtensa processors at a 30% duty cycle turning on and off the Xtensa DPU block and with full screen the GPU is off. The origional PS4 has an older version of the Same Xtensa DPU as does the XB1. The Consoles are the only large volume STBs that can support UHD Blu-ray.
Adam Tyner
Member
"May support" or "could support" are a whole lot less longwinded (but admittedly less Rigby-esque).
"Will" is a statement of fact. Your conclusions are conjecture.
Give up.
Like, honestly. Give up.
You're not going to win.
Jeff's entire mantra is that if you can provide enough evidence that it actually possible, then its "as good as fact" and it's just a forgone conclusion.
Adam Tyner
Member
I know. I've come to the same conclusion more than a couple of times, but I keep coming back for punishment anyway.
Forgive me if this has already been answered, but then why are companies selling UHD players for literally several hundred dollars?! Surely companies would want to sell the players for as cheap as possible (or even update the firmware of existing players to make them compatible with UHD) in order to reduce the barrier of entry. Am I missing something?
By the way, hardware sales of DVD and Blu-rays are chump change compared to software sales, so it can't be that.
By the way, hardware sales of DVD and Blu-rays are chump change compared to software sales, so it can't be that.
Dreamwriter
Member
It's impossible to make existing players compatible by just changing firmware, because the UHD standard uses different discs that need new reading hardware (which is why PS4 can't play them).
As for price, that's normal for any new technology. The first Blu-Ray players cost $2000. These UHD players are actually quite cheap in comparison.
Adam Tyner
Member
To be fair, the first Blu-ray player on the market -- the Samsung BDP-1000 -- had an MSRP half that: $999.99.
But I thought rigsby was arguing that the PS4 would be able to play UHD discs?
dr_rus
Member
He is and he's mostly likely wrong in this.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You at least can respond to facts and what they imply. The PS4 and XB1 are designed for the Media delivery schemes that will be coming during the life of the consoles.
The business categories available under the ROM4 FLLA include a "Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player". Since the only Game consoles with BD-ROM drives are the PS4 and XB1 and Nintendo has never supported blu-ray, either both or at least one will support UHD Blu-ray. If one can support UHD-Blu-ray the drive is not an issue as seen in the Player requirements for the BD-ROM drive.
The Vision and Audio processing hardware (Xtensa DPUs) in AMD APUs have also been used for codecs in the UVD. Kaveri has a UVD 4 and Carrizo a UVD 6. Carrizo's UVD 6 corresponds to the latest generation Xtensa IVP Vision processor. AMD has stated that they use the same hardware to support HEVC that the XB1 uses. Xtensa processors but not as efficient as the latest below for Mobile Vision and HEVC.
New Cadence Tensilica Vision P5 DSP Enables 4K Mobile Imaging with 13X Performance Boost and 5X Lower Energy
This implies the following: A hardware codec is not being used, it's a software codec using Xtensa accelerators. It can be firmware updated and Microsoft firmware updated the Codec to support HEVC profile 10 which will be used by Netflix (IPTV), UHD Blu-ray and the coming 4K TV.
There is no mention of the PS4 supporting HEVC but it does have the same Xtensa processors for Audio. The PS4 needs more vision processing hardware than the XB1 as Kinect 2 does pre-processing. More video processing translates into HEVC codec accelerators.
The Xtensa processors are on a ARM trustzone managed AXI buss and the TEE that enables does comply with the requirements for Playready 3, Playready ND, WMDRM, UHD Blu-ray and the coming FCC authorized Downloadable security scheme that will allow the XB1 and PS4 to be Cable and Antenna TV DVRs. This also from Microsoft Playready whitepapers mentioning Game console support for Plaryeady ND. The PS4 Southbridge is a True SoC complying with the ARM TEE recommendations while the XB1 is only trustzone managed and complies with Playready recommendations.
The same hardware and software stack that supports UHD IPTV can support UHD blu-ray with a modern standard BD-ROM blu-ray drive. UHD IPTV also includes 4K Antenna and Cable TV. If you design to support one there is no additional cost to support the others except software and that can be amortized over millions of consoles.
The PS4 and XB1 are designed for the Media delivery schemes that will be coming during the life of the consoles.
OfficerZap
Neo Member
If people are so sure Jeff's wrong, they should throw down a bet? Could be fun.
Adam Tyner
Member
With the usual caveat that I'm not a UHD-BD-on-console denier (just taking issue with treating speculation as fact):
The page you link to includes "Game Console" as a component of an available business category. It looks like a traditional, standalone UHD BD player would be licensed under the same category, and nowhere does it say that anything has actually been licensed under these terms for a game console. Making the leap from "the BDA is making this available as an option for licensing" to "they're obviously referencing the PS4 or Xbox One, so plans must be underway for development" is already one faulty logical leap.
You also don't seem to understand what the slashes in "Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player" mean. This does not mean that a video game console is a movie player and a test player; it's three different possibilities addressed by a single licensing option. Again, something being available for licensing doesn't mean that anyone has licensed or even will license it. How can you say:
...from the link above? You've made the leap from "available for licensing" to "has been licensed, is an actual product, and confirms support for UHD BD" based on...well, nothing. For someone making "an effort to discover and educate", you need to brush up on your fundamentals.
Chû Totoro
Member
"could" is what I can agree with because the system is proven capable to support the technology (it seems as I see in this thread). Now "will" means that you have information about it from Sony.
So, any insider info jeff_rigby?
So, any insider info jeff_rigby?
Right after the ps3 gets that massive web browser update.
Making PS4 compatible with 4K streaming is one thing, making major revisions to hardware and firmware for physical media playback is another.
The total collapse of physical media sales makes UHD/4K disc playback for PS4 highly unlikely. There would be little in it for Sony, money-wise.
Remember, they haven't even enabled CD playback for PS4, yet.
The total collapse of physical media sales makes UHD/4K disc playback for PS4 highly unlikely. There would be little in it for Sony, money-wise.
Remember, they haven't even enabled CD playback for PS4, yet.
I'm pretty sure the cables are just the same. I use my old cable to connect my PC to my 4K TV and I get 4K 60Hz display just fine.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Adam won't take that bet, he has always said that:
1) I'm reckless in stating that it will support UHD blu-ray although it might be possible.
2) Because I've been so definite he posted Ito's comments to knock me down somewhat stating that Ito is saying it's not possible (Drive and HEVC).
3) I responded that Ito was supporting a NDA. And trashed at least the Drive portion of Ito comments.
4) Adam is now back to again saying it might be possible despite previously quoting Ito as it's not possible. "With the usual caveat that I'm not a UHD-BD-on-console denier (just taking issue with treating speculation as fact): "
Without reading the research I have done and have cited here, Adam's position is reasonable.
Adam Tyner
Member
I wouldn't take the bet because I have consistently acknowledged the possibility of UHD BD support. If you believe I'm flip-flopping, you're misreading. Please quote any posts I've made to the contrary.
Referencing statements made by a Sony EVP who leads the PS4 hardware team -- the closest thing to an official response we've gotten from Sony about any of this -- is not unwarranted. Even if Ito is mistaken (or if your claims of lying to adhere to an NDA are accurate, which there is no evidence to support), that would certainly seem to indicate that UHD BD support is not on the immediate horizon. FWIW, I have said that we shouldn't blindly take Ito at his word.
I'm not saying the PS4 cannot and will not support UHD BD. I am saying that there's not sufficient evidence to support claims that it definitively will. I am also saying that your logic is not always on solid ground, such as how you can't distinguish between categories available for licensing and products under active development. I am also saying you're not as well-informed as you think you are, such as when you were convinced that Sony would announce UHD BD support in October when the format had weeks earlier already been pushed back to 2016.
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