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[Noisepurge]

Currently just £3.00 new on UK Amazon if anyone wants to get one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-PlayStation-Move-Charging-Station/dp/B004477IZA/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1456378633&sr=8-4

thanks for the tip, bought! can skip the hassle of having old usb cables around.

 

[Lister]

Keep a lid on the vaseline, you might need it later.

For more than one reason! ;p

 

[QaaQer]

Hmmm, Amazon.CA had it listed briefly for the equivalent of $800 USD. Assuming that was for a complete kit of headset + console + 2move + camera + ds4, then the psvr by itself should be a $349 - $399 piece of kit.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I don't think people understand how this works. Why do you think Quantum Break for example can run on an Xbox One (which if you find a PC equivalent CPU/GPU it's quite weak by PC standards) but in order to run this very same game on a PC it takes much more. It's the benefits of optimization in a closed box and since it's been developed as an Xbox One you see great visuals and performance like you see from most First Party devs for all consoles. Stop thinking of it in ways of TFs because you'll never be able to wrap your head around it.

It is amazing we still go through this. Just because you can compare specs better, does not mean it is direct to a PC that does not have that low of a level API a closed box will have.

We will see what DX12 does, and how compatible without issues or benefit it is on a myriad of machine configurations. I am still not convinced of the same '40%' increase, outside of the power user machines they keep giving performance numbers from.

 

[bj00rn_]

Here's the screendoor effect on Oculus DK2:

That is not from the DK2 but the DK1.

 

[doby]

I'll take a look, thanks!., I have a terraria ps4, and cex give £10 voucher, so it will be a one on one trade, so for a second one, I'll check game's online stock.

They don't work without the ps camera right?
I wish I know how sony pretend to sell all this.

Here's the link as its not easy to find through Games site because their site search only returns the move from 3rd party sellers (I found the link through a price comparison site). Stock is very intermittent though.

 

[LordofPwn]

Also, seeing him harp on about move controllers already in the market place seems like a good indication there'll be a non-bundled version (I hope)

he's talking from a dev standpoint that they already have toolsets for programing, and products for testing those things. it's not like they're releasing new camera and move controllers and haven't fully worked out support yet.

Personally I thought that looked pretty laggy, however I wonder if that is an issue with the signal to the TV more than the signal to the VR unit.

1.) was built in a week
2.) signal to tv has to be unwrapped, plus whatever display lag is on the tv.
3.) if you were talking about the stage demo i'm sure there's a bunch of display lag, breakout box to video switcher to projector

Yu-Gi-Oh VRMMO with monster holograms or bust.

yes. but it will require Konami...

 

[FantasticMrSnake]

Here's the link as its not easy to find through Games site because their site search only returns the move from 3rd party sellers (I found the link through a price comparison site). Stock is very intermittent though.

Thanks for the heads up, I get 2, there wasn't stock when you first post, but now it seems there are, so I grab 2, I can always sell them if the ps vr bring new versions or whatever.

 

[Carn82]

Wait what, PSVR is RGB OLED? Theoretically it might have cleaner/more accurate looking sub pixels because of it.

Correct. A higher res pentile-screen can look 'worse' (and needs to render more as well).than a lower res RGB Stripe screen. Too bad I can't seem to find any 'official specs' on the screens used in the Oculus retail model; but DK2 used an OLED Pentile screen iirc.

 

[TalonJH]

How do you connect PS camera to PC which it needs to work ?

Yep. PS Camera is a propierty connector. I suppose you could maybe use some third party camera. Do they sell cheap stereo web cams? And eventually figure out the tracking algoriths(not sure how easy or hard thatd be) but regardless it wont be anywhere near a day 1 hack I think, nor something straightforward for PC users to even implement once its potetially figured out.

That's actually not the hard part. People have already gotten the camera to work on PC. It's just a USB 3.0.
http://ps4eye.tumblr.com/

Watching the presentation again and god damn Richard Marks has big arms now...

Does he have some kind of secret VR work out gym or something? He looks way more built up than I remember.

Swinging Move controllers around all day. PS90X

 

[DieH@rd]

Personally I thought that looked pretty laggy, however I wonder if that is an issue with the signal to the TV more than the signal to the VR unit.

Social screen is laggy because of PU unwarp processing. User with headset gets low latency feed.

 

[metareferential]

Here's the screendoor effect on Oculus DK2:

It's definitely not that bad.

And it really depends on the game, the situation, the user, and so on.

It can be really bad, though.

Best games and demos are way better than that.

Either way DK2's tech is outdated now.

 

[OsirisBlack]

So if I follow this information correctly the breakout box basically handles all of the audio freeing up the PS4 itself to focus solely on gpu tasks?

 

[Lister]

So if I follow this information correctly the breakout box basically handles all of the audio freeing up the PS4 itself to focus solely on gpu tasks?

Well, you'd still need CPU time for non GPU related tasks, but yeah, no CPU cycles wasted on pin-point 3D positional audio - just like the good old days of the Soundblaster cards. ::sniff::

 

[OsirisBlack]

Well, you'd still need CPU time for non GPU related tasks, but yeah, no CPU cycles wasted on pin-point 3D positional audio - just like the good old days of the Soundblaster cards. ::sniff::

Yea figured about the CPU time just wonder how much overhead they free up offloading the audio. Probably going to have to wait to get that answered. If you're going to offload tasks it seems surprising they would only dump the audio processes, maybe that's easier to offload than other CPU based tasks.

 

[Lister]

Yea figured about the CPU time just wonder how much overhead they free up offloading the audio. Probably going to have to wait to get that answered. If you're going to offload tasks it seems surprising they would only dump the audio processes, maybe that's easier to offload than other CPU based tasks.

The standard audio processing most games do now a days is a cinch on PC CPU's but it's probably more significant for consoles.

Morever, high quality 3D positional audio based on game geometry, along with good occlusion and other effects, IS definitely significant.

 

[aygomyownroad]

So will PSVR need two Move controllers or one Move controller and the Navigation controller? and can these be the ones from the PS3?

 

[Oppo]

I'm hearing from dev friends that PSVR projects have a shitty build time. like 6 minutes for any little change. hope they address that if true. not sure if the context.

 

[FF Seraphim]

So will PSVR need two Move controllers or one Move controller and the Navigation controller? and can these be the ones from the PS3?

I didn't think it requires the move, just the ds4. Some games may require the move though.

 

[PapaEmeritus]

Wow that breakout box is only just to display to TV- so the PS4 actually does all the processing for VR- thats very surprising

 

[OsirisBlack]

The standard audio processing most games do now a days is a cinch on PC CPU's but it's probably more significant for consoles.

Morever, high quality 3D positional audio based on game geometry, along with good occlusion and other effects, IS definitely significant.

Thanks for this brain wasn't registering how much would go into audio.

 

[the-pi-guy]

So will PSVR need two Move controllers or one Move controller and the Navigation controller? and can these be the ones from the PS3?

Depends on the game.
Some games can do DS4 + 1 move controller
Some games can do DS4
Some games can do 2 move controllers

Haven't seen any with the navigation controller.
They are the same.

 

[Neuromancer]

So will PSVR need two Move controllers or one Move controller and the Navigation controller? and can these be the ones from the PS3?

Some games will use the DS4, some games will use one or two Moves, and the navigation controller is supported but I'm not sure how much use it will get. Yes the ones from the PS3 will work; they're not changing other than maybe a rebranding.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Great thanks. May try and get some cheap from Game or CEX

 

[the-pi-guy]

That looks terrible. Completely immersion breaking.

People who have used VR, is this as bad as it looks in the pic? Does it ruin the experience?

That image is actually from DK1.
DK2 is much better, and PSVR is better yet.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2c3bfi/first_impressions_from_a_dk1_user_video_links/

Many reviews have I read, you know, reviews for the Oculus Rift DK2 where enthusiasts alike are talking about the “Screendoor Effect". In my opinion, I believe a few of these reviews are coming from those who have never tried the Oculus Rift DK1. Truthfully, I been actively using the Oculus Rift DK1 for about 1 year now. The difference is truly night and day! The Oculus Rift DK1 screen door was unbearable at times, but, you just had to push through it because, it was just that immersive.

The Oculus Rift DK2 is absolutely, no doubt about it, better. Picture this, within mere seconds your eyes adjust, the crispness and the scene comes to life exceeding expectations. As enthusiasts, gamers, critics and reviewers have pointed out: the “Tuscany” demo at this resolution immediately reveals it’s age. This demo is no longer sufficient for this screen; “Elite Dangerous” or “Technolust” will make jaws drop (for real).

For those that see or have seen very small pixels (compared to the Oculus Rift DK1) perhaps try “Mayaman's Hack” with the privacy screen overlaid on the OLED panel, I would be interested to hear how that turns out.

 

[nOoblet16]

Vive and Oculus Rift are 1080x1200 per eye, pentile oled @ 90hz.
PSVR is 960x1080 per eye, RGB oled @ 120hz.

Ok..that's not bad at all. Infact that's damn good
People were saying that PSVR screen is crisper/cleaner despite being low res and has less screendoor effect, so maybe it is possible with that RGB OLED.

How does the 60-120 reporjection work for framerate? Any good material to go through on that?
Or is it just a framerate upscaler ?

 

[DieH@rd]

Or is it just a framerate upscaler ?

Engine takes last rendered frame (that was already sent to users eyes), waits for correct time, samples the latest tracking data, applies the rotation to that old frame, and sends it to the user.

 

[whitehawk]

The majority of impressions, reviews, and comparisons i've read on VR centric forums have had the Rift edging out Vive in terms of SDE and image quality with PSVR being somewhere near but not quite as good. That being said, people seem to be more impressed with the experience that they get on the Vive. I'm not sure if it's because roomscale experiences demo better or whatever but i'm having a hard time deciding between the two as well. Right now the only thing i'm sure of is that I want all 3 but will have to choose between one or two of them (depending on the PSVR price).

I was much more impressed with Vive over Psvr, and yeah it was pretty much because of the room scale movement and controllers. It was something else. Even something as simple as blowing up balloons virtually and hitting them with my hands. Although my psvr demo was headmaster which doesn't use controllers. Wish I had the chance to, it may have made the existence different.

Also, I wish the Psvr has vibration in the part that rests on your head. In headmaster you have to headbutt soccer balls, but it was really weird since there was no feedback when it hit your head.

 

[FireCloud]

So will PSVR need two Move controllers or one Move controller and the Navigation controller? and can these be the ones from the PS3?

I didn't think it requires the move, just the ds4. Some games may require the move though.

Some games may require two move controllers. I remember hearing the Job Simulator devs mentioning something about their game requiring two move controllers....though I may have misunderstood them.


Edit:Multiplatform VR - Shipping a Vive, Oculus and Playstation VR title in Unity
It's at about the 9:15 minute mark.

They say they require two controllers with 1:1 positional tracking. I think the DS4 supports this but it may be awkward to hold in one hand.

 

[Lister]

I wonder... with the high levels of optomization required for vr if engines like unity with garbage collection will run into trouble.

 

[FireCloud]

I wonder... with the high levels of optomization required for vr if engines like unity with garbage collection will run into trouble.

The video I linked above mentions that. They say that devs have to be very careful with their memory allocations in Unity or the garbage collector will kill your experience.

 

[Lister]

The video I linked above mentions that. They say that devs have to be very careful with their memory allocations in Unity or the garbage collector will kill your experience.

Thanks Will watch tonight. Gotta reuse those objects kidddies!

 

[LordOfChaos]

the PS4 basically has a 1.84 Tflops GPU which is roughly equivalent to a AMD HD 7850.

60% more power means it will give performance equivalent to a 2.8 Tflops GPU which brings it much closer to the theoritical Tflops of GTX 970 which is 3.5 Tflops.

Of course the AMD and Nvidia GPU architectures are vastly different, and there are memory and CPU disadvantages, and I dont entirely believe him but you get the point.

If your app runs at 90Hz on a PC with a gtx970 then you should be very close to 60 on the ps4. And with the 120Hz reprojection applied it's glassy smooth."

^^That's what they meant, 90Hz on PC with the 970 should be doable with 60 on the PS4/PSVR, plus lower resolution, assisted by reprojection.
If part of it was also meant to be the low overhead API, that impacts CPU draw call performance and thus CPU load, you can't just add 60% to the PS4s GPU for some estimated performance number.

 

[RoadHazard]

Engine takes last rendered frame (that was already sent to users eyes), waits for correct time, samples the latest tracking data, applies the rotation to that old frame, and sends it to the user.

I've been wondering how this actually works though. I understand it as you're explaining it, but if you move this frame a bit to the left, what comes in from the right? The pixels that should be there haven't been rendered yet. Are they interpolated from the nearby ones, or will there actually be a thin black sliver there? Or does the headset, when you're not moving your head, not actually show all pixels (i.e. it normally overscans)? Does this not matter at all, because it's at the edges of your vision so you don't really notice it?

 

[tuxfool]

I've been wondering how this actually works though. I understand it as you're explaining it, but if you move this frame a bit to the left, what comes in from the right? The pixels that should be there haven't been rendered yet. Are they interpolated from the nearby ones, or will there actually be a thin black sliver there? Or does the headset, when you're not moving your head, not actually show all pixels (i.e. it normally overscans)? Does this not matter at all, because it's at the edges of your vision so you don't really notice it?

Yup. You understand the problem. How much you notice it will vary depending on the amount of head translation (it can correct for rotation) and foreground objects. But the issue isn't on the periphery, but foreground objects. If you shift your head to look behind an object how does the psvr know what was previously occluded? It doesn't because the engine hasn't rendered it.

https://youtu.be/-t-ALnqYV3c?t=196

 

[The Elite]

It's good to hear what the breakout box does exactly.

 

[mrklaw]

I've been wondering how this actually works though. I understand it as you're explaining it, but if you move this frame a bit to the left, what comes in from the right? The pixels that should be there haven't been rendered yet. Are they interpolated from the nearby ones, or will there actually be a thin black sliver there? Or does the headset, when you're not moving your head, not actually show all pixels (i.e. it normally overscans)? Does this not matter at all, because it's at the edges of your vision so you don't really notice it?

ideally you'd render a larger area than the screen so you have something to move into view.

Another way is to predict you'll need something (eg on the right edge) because your sampling of the movement data shows fast movement in that direction.

Or you just don't bother and hope it isn't noticeable because it'll be on the periphery of your view.

 

[majik13]

That's actually not the hard part. People have already gotten the camera to work on PC. It's just a USB 3.0.
http://ps4eye.tumblr.com/

so whats the hard part then? Just figuring out the tracking algorithms for the camera to track the PSVR?

 

[TTP]

btw I think the USB connection is just for powering the box. Edit: wait no, it also has to transmit the data of the VR helmet sensors of course.
Possibly also to transmit your voice during voice chat (if your headset has a microphone). Sucks that they couldn't just use the port on the back and plug the camera into the box.

The PSVR headset has a built in microphone and yes, voice chat is transmitted via USB.

Asymmetric multiplayer is also achieved thanks to that USB connection. The "social" video (NOT what the VR player is watching) is rendered off-screen in the PS4, encoded into H.264 720p/30 format (using the Share functionality), streamed to the PU via USB, decoded on the PU and sent to the TV via the PU HDMI out.

 

[bj00rn_]

I've been wondering how this actually works though. I understand it as you're explaining it, but if you move this frame a bit to the left, what comes in from the right? The pixels that should be there haven't been rendered yet. Are they interpolated from the nearby ones, or will there actually be a thin black sliver there? Or does the headset, when you're not moving your head, not actually show all pixels (i.e. it normally overscans)? Does this not matter at all, because it's at the edges of your vision so you don't really notice it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvtEXMlQQtI

 

[mrklaw]

The PSVR headset has a built in microphone and yes, voice chat is transmitted via USB.

Asymmetric multiplayer is also achieved thanks to that USB connection. The "social" video (NOT what the VR player is watching) is rendered off-screen in the PS4, encoded into H.264 720p/30 format (using the Share functionality), streamed to the PU via USB, decoded on the PU and sent to the TV via the PU HDMI out.

Do you know whether the 3D audio (well the samples and 3D position info) are also going via USB? So the HDMI is just a normal 1080p image with the warped SBS stereo view?

 

[FireCloud]

Do you know whether the 3D audio (well the samples and 3D position info) are also going via USB? So the HDMI is just a normal 1080p image with the warped SBS stereo view?

I think Dr. Marks mentioned that a TV wouldn't accept the video signal from the PS4 so it isn't just an HDMI feed of the warped images....I don't know if it would accept the signal after the breakout box that is going to the HMD though.

https://youtu.be/XZVVs5O8NC0?t=737

Edit:

The PSVR headset has a built in microphone and yes, voice chat is transmitted via USB.

Asymmetric multiplayer is also achieved thanks to that USB connection. The "social" video (NOT what the VR player is watching) is rendered off-screen in the PS4, encoded into H.264 720p/30 format (using the Share functionality), streamed to the PU via USB, decoded on the PU and sent to the TV via the PU HDMI out.

Btw TTP....I really enjoyed your videos during the Move's heydays. (Yes, I think Move had a heyday) I'm looking forward to your coverage of PSVR!

 

[Arkham]

It's good to hear what the breakout box does exactly.

For the Nth time, yeah.

 

[jusufin]

I was much more impressed with Vive over Psvr, and yeah it was pretty much because of the room scale movement and controllers. It was something else. Even something as simple as blowing up balloons virtually and hitting them with my hands. Although my psvr demo was headmaster which doesn't use controllers. Wish I had the chance to, it may have made the existence different.

Also, I wish the Psvr has vibration in the part that rests on your head. In headmaster you have to headbutt soccer balls, but it was really weird since there was no feedback when it hit your head.

To me the PSVR is just the value proposition headset, nothing more nothing less. It's the true baseline for good VR and will probably be very successful because sony has no other competitor with console VR. It will be close in terms of quality but the difference will be noticeable in higher end HMDs regardless of what people want to believe.

Then there is the Vive and Rift which are definitely going head to head competing for the same customers. Everyone who has tried roomscale on the Vive has spoken highly of it. I have no dought that it adds to the immersion level, I just not completely sold on it's viability yet.

I have a suspicion that it's going to become physically tiresome once people become used to the experience and it's no longer something fresh and new. I'm also iffy on the kind of support it's going to get. It makes sense for most developers to target all three HMDs with a seated/standing experience vs making a custom tailored experience for a product that may not have a large user base starting out. I think all the crazy solutions to bring your whole body in VR (multi directional treadmills as an example) are going to lead nowhere and people will migrate back to wanting a seated experience eventually.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's next level and that people will be blown away when they try it but I'm not sure of its lasting appeal. That being said, no one really knows how the tech is going to evolve and i'm no exception. There is so much money already invested and so many different ideas that no one can say for sure where we are going to go with this. It's really up to the mass market at this point. My personal opinion is that mobile vr is going to end up becoming the biggest player and carry VR forward much quicker than people expected.

 

[gmoran]

The barrel distortion on PSVR is unlike others. It's actually less "barrel-ish" in shape and more circular. I wonder why it is so different and what the implications are.

I understand this is due to PSVR using Hidden Area Mesh rendering--I presume in their libraries ?--the essential technique was articulated by Abrash a few years ago. Essentially the PSVR only renders pixels projected by the optics, saves about 17% of normal render target.

If anyone has more info?

 

[tr00per]

you better hope the PC community figures out the PSVR because i dont see Sony wanting to help with that endeavor

I'm actually curious about this. How much work would that be, really? Could an HD webcam suffice? Could it work without the breakout box? And how well?i imagine if a cheaper hmd could work on the pc, sales would skyrocket and Sony could only benefit, right?

 

[gmoran]

They are it's just marketing, Sony calls it Reprojection, Oculus calls it Asynchronous Timewarp (ATW). SteamVR (Vive basically) doesn't actually have it, don't know if it's something they'll implement in the future or they're investigating other methods to reduce motion-to-photon latency.

Oculus blog post goes into the advantages and disadvantages of the technique

I think what else helps Sony is that their HMD refresh rate is 120hz, so they can reproject 60fps games to 120. They can't do that trick with 90fps games, and I've seen a few Dev threads talking about this and the consensus is that you can't reproject 60fps to 90, and that 45fps is just too low,

So I'm guessing Sony designed some asects of their HMD around the limitations of PS4: RGB 120hz display, whereas OR and Vive don't have to because of the raw power of the PC platform and hence save some money.

Some games will be able to do 60fps to 120 well, and some won't. But good engineering by Sony

p.s. all platforms should--probably ?--reproject to their native fps at least, because that results in the least amount of rotation latency, and increased comfort.

 

[Man]

The Vive/Oculus CV2 SDK's will assuredly offer reprojection as an option having screens that can perform 120hz+. You need a base framerate of 60 to pool off (as stated by Sony), lower wasn't good enough.

 

[hymanator]

I'm actually curious about this. How much work would that be, really? Could an HD webcam suffice? Could it work without the breakout box? And how well?i imagine if a cheaper hmd could work on the pc, sales would skyrocket and Sony could only benefit, right?

That's what I'm wondering. I guess it depends if Sony is selling this at-cost or at a minor loss in hopes to make their money back through software sales. In that case, it wouldn't benefit Sony much if people turn around and only use the headset on the pc.

On the other hand, if someone bought this headset initially to use on their pc, they might turn around and buy a PS4 in order to have even more vr options available.

You also have the other audience that already owns a pc and a PS4. People who were on the fence about which headset to get would be more likely to pick up the headset that supports every platform.

 

[DieH@rd]

I've been wondering how this actually works though. I understand it as you're explaining it, but if you move this frame a bit to the left, what comes in from the right?

Final image that is rendered [that fish-eye view with two eyes] usually covers more area than user can see. So, if the entire image shifts a bit during reprojection the rendered parts of image that were off the side now come into the view. However take not that only very excessive head movements can cause image to shift significantly during reprojection. Then, black [un-rendered] area appear in vision [but very briefly].