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Aonuma on Zelda Wii U: "I think we’ll be able to make ‘something new’ like OoT was."

Well, the Wii in 2006 and the Wii in 2011 were very, very different things, which represents by far the most erratic Zelda sales activity since Ocarina. If a divisive (and ancient) game like Majora's Mask can sell 2m copies in 2015, I'd say the series is still pretty damn healthy. When Zelda U turns up, I don't expect it to have any problems going over 4m whatsoever, regardless of NX's fate.

Keep in mind, Twilight Princess shipped 1.4 million copies (mostly in North America) on the completely dead GameCube as well.

The excitement and interest from the internet, press, and general mainstream for this particularly Zelda was very high. The graphics, no doubt, played a role in that. "Mature" and "grown up" were talking points hyping up the game in Nintendo Power magazine articles before its release.

I don't think Wii interest drying up was a big cause to Skyward Swords decline performance. There was simply not as much interest in the game itself, and there are various possible reasons for that.

Anyway, to the future:

Not sure how the new Zelda will turn out. Nintendo has clearly heard us clamoring for a "return to basics" approach to Zelda. Aonuma mentioned it at e3, A Link Between Worlds was made (I believe this was originally planned to be an A Link to the Past 3D port, like Excitebike 3d, before deciding to turn it into a full new game based on it), and Nintendo saw mega success with new modern sequels to Super Mario Bros, Punch Out, and Donkey Kong Country.

Instead of looking to Ocarina of Time, look to the NES Zelda. Tackle dungeons out of order, dangerous overworld, very light on puzzles, exploration heavy, engaging combat, action packed and intense at times.

Now, I think the celshading/anime look might hurt its overall mainstream potential. It's not likely to garner a Skyrim level of interest and help propel the NX to the stratosphere, even if it's a really good game, but a classic reinvention could go a long way to help bring a lot more interest back into the Zelda camp.
 
Zelda has been puzzle driven since LTTP. The original two aren't very good by today's standards.
Puzzles are fun and it's better than some random cave with a few monsters in it.
The Zelda team is still super talented at making them based on the recent games and they add a lot to Zelda.
That's not to say that Zelda shouldn't do anything other that puzzles. Majora's Mask had a focus on side quest and Wind Waker had a focus on naval based exploration and they benefit from this greatly.
Things like block puzzles are basically gone and they're usually more meaningful than just shooting a switch

The core foundation of those first two games, particularly the original, is still incredibly sound and could easily be modernized. I'd love to see Zelda go in that direction again.
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
I just wanna see this game! I've seen more direct footage of The Last Guardian and Kingdom Hearts 3. Just a 2 min trailer please. I've seen Spiderman but I haven't seen Zelda Wii U.
 

Tookay

Member
So they're not fans if puzzles aren't the main reason they play the games?

I fell in love with Zelda back in 1987. The puzzles then were different than they are now. Am I not a fan because I preferred that game?

Mind you, I still enjoy the newer games. I'm just ready for something fresh.

I'm not saying they're not fans, per se. But I do wonder why they even bother with the series at this point, considering how every game for the last 25 years has been relatively puzzle/dungeon-focused. We're talking practically 85% of the series' lifetime has been set in this mold. Further, the item-based puzzle-solving mechanics are still fairly distinctive to Zelda; nobody really does this sort of iterative mechanic - wherein you learn how an item functions, then get tested upon it in new ways as you progress - as well as the Zelda games do. It's part of the series' identity.

I don't mind them changing the focus or doing something slightly different; personally, I like the world-building, atmosphere, adventuring, and exploring just as much as I like the dungeons and puzzle-solving. But there's a weird segment of Zelda fans that always crop up in these threads that act like Aonuma tainted the series with puzzles or that the puzzle parts need to be cut down significantly and who want this series to be something else completely, which I find strange and myopic.

I enjoy Zelda for the tight gunplay.

lol
 

GenG3000

Member
Zelda has been puzzle driven since LTTP. The original two aren't very good by today's standards.

The original Zelda is fucking fantastic. Cannot say the same about the second one.

The blend of adventure, exploration and combat still feels good today. No other Zelda apart from Skyward Sword has such a balanced an intricate combat system, in which clever positioning, interesting enemy patterns and the mastery of every tool is important. Each hit received mattered, each bomb and arrow counted and recovery items were sparse, and this is something that has been lost since ALTTP with its 99 bombs, arrows, and unlimited bottles with full-healing potions.

Apart from that, the game shows an extremely clever design build around its limitations, like how the destructible wars can only be found on straight and flat walls, and how there can only be one per "room".

The success of games like Souls and Bloodborne pretty much rode on updating what the original Zelda did: a thrilling and satisfying adventure. Beyond its graphics, it is still really good. And yes, I would want some of that in the new Zelda.
 

ReyVGM

Member
The core foundation of those first two games, particularly the original, is still incredibly sound and could easily be modernized. I'd love to see Zelda go in that direction again.

That's exactly the direction Zelda Wii U is going. Said by Aonuma himself.
 
I'm not saying they're not fans, per se. But I do wonder why they even bother with the series at this point, considering how every game for the last 25 years has been relatively puzzle/dungeon-focused. We're talking practically 85% of the series' lifetime has been set in this mold. Further, the item-based puzzle-solving mechanics are still fairly distinctive to Zelda; nobody really does this sort of iterative mechanic - wherein you learn how an item functions, then get tested upon it in new ways as you progress - as well as the Zelda games do. It's part of the series' identity.

I don't mind them changing the focus or doing something slightly different; personally, I like the world-building, atmosphere, adventuring, and exploring just as much as I like the dungeons and puzzle-solving. But there's a weird segment of Zelda fans that always crop up in these threads that act like Aonuma tainted the series with puzzles or that the puzzle parts need to be cut down significantly and who want this series to be something else completely, which I find strange and myopic.

Ok, this I agree with. Thanks for responding in detail. The type of person you are talking about is rather annoying. I've become somewhat disappointed in Zelda in recent years, but I still love the franchise and have been able to find a lot of enjoyment out of every entry in the series. Heck, even the DS games!

That's exactly the direction Zelda Wii U is going. Said by Aonuma himself.

Man, I really hope so. He did talk about Zelda 1 in the initial reveal, which is a good sign.
 
Uh...

I'm gonna disregard this statement, cause last gen it almost never turned out well when Japanese developers tried to make western style games. That identity crisis was not a fun time.

I really hope ZeldaU isn't open world in the conventional sense. Open world (played straight) is overdone af. Last thing we need is another MGSV.
 
Uh...

I'm gonna disregard this statement, cause last gen it almost never turned out well when Japanese developers tried to make western style games. That identity crisis was not a fun time.

I really hope ZeldaU isn't open world in the conventional sense. Open world (played straight) is overdone af. Last thing we need is another MGSV.

It can be open world, but please not overly...if i need 45 minutes to reach a dungeon by feet after completing another...no thank you....
 
Said no one ever

Speak for yourself. I much prefer traditional Asian or Pan-Asian vs the typically processed/deep fried Western diet. Most people I know would rather have sushi or a spring roll than a casserole. If more of the US felt the same way we wouldn't have an obesity/heart disease/diabetes/cancer epidemic.
 
It can be open world, but please not overly...if i need 45 minutes to reach a dungeon by feet after completing another...no thank you....


Yea.

There must be other ways to convey open, large scale without restoring to boring empty spaced out environments that kill all the pacing and momentum of a game.

If I wanted an open world title there's no shortage of that with Western games. Hopefully they're adding some sort of a twist here with their approach.
 
Yea.

There must be other ways to convey open, large scale without restoring to boring empty spaced out environments that kill all the pacing and momentum of a game.

If I wanted an open world title there's no shortage of that with Western games. Hopefully they're adding some sort of a twist here with their approach.

Horseracing :D

Nah, I think will Nintendo will get it done...
 

Yukinari

Member
I feel like Aonuma is gonna have a lot on his shoulders after we see the E3 trailer.

Twilight Princess had hype inducing trailers and meanwhile the actual game is trying too hard to be ocarina but bigger.
 

Kurt

Member
I'm wondering what the next zelda game would be.
I think for once let him create another game that he always wanted to create and give zelda for once to the mario galaxy team.+

I just want new, ambitious, groundbreaking.

Give me something I've never see in games before, not just in the Zelda series.

You can do it Nintendo, I have faith.
Splatoon.

But for instance, the zelda wall thing is innovated enough imo.
But i did dislike the way that you could already have all of the items in the beginning of that game.
Maybe they let you buy some kind of medals where you can enable retro sounds or retro look items. (things like that)

On of the things that they should fix is the money thing.
Currently i'm not using it a lot in zelda games.
 

takriel

Member
Can we guess when development for Zelda U started from this statement?

What I'm reading out of it is that development officially started sometime in late 2012 when they were considering which Zelda games should be remade in HD in order to efficiently learn how to make a Zelda game in HD. That's interesting, because they would have missed a whole year after the release of SS. Or maybe that year was solely dedicated to brainstorming ideas?

I'd really like to get some official development timeline for this game!
 

Hermii

Member
Speak for yourself. I much prefer traditional Asian or Pan-Asian vs the typically processed/deep fried Western diet. Most people I know would rather have sushi or a spring roll than a casserole. If more of the US felt the same way we wouldn't have an obesity/heart disease/diabetes/cancer epidemic.
The west is more than the US you know. We have Italy, Spain, France etc. All with awesome cuisines.
 

Piichan

Banned
I'm ready Aonuma!
MCpAhQp.png

Give me more of your sweet sweet love.

No Link's Crossbow Training? Come on man.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Speak for yourself. I much prefer traditional Asian or Pan-Asian vs the typically processed/deep fried Western diet. Most people I know would rather have sushi or a spring roll than a casserole. If more of the US felt the same way we wouldn't have an obesity/heart disease/diabetes/cancer epidemic.
Hmmm you do realize plenty of Asian food isn't healthy right? And that deep frying has a storied tradition in China and places influenced by China?

I like a lot of foods from a lot of places. Let's not resort to obvious falsehoods to prop up whatever cusine you like.

Also not sure perfect health is highest value, but...
 

sfried

Member
Since GAF has been begging, I went out and decided to carve how the theoretical new Zelda would play out.

Zelda Souls:

Open world, but would require incredible skill to traverse with minimal equipment and specific items that yeild effects (think Havel's Ring). Fairies and hearts are incredibly hard to come by, and sometimes an empty bottle might be more useful for something else.

Also you lose all your arrows/rupees(/magic + all other consumables) every time you die. Your sheild and sword also have durability stats that wear down depending on what techniques you use (no more spamming jump attack). Endurance guage is back.

Only way to level up is through equipment...which you end up losing as well if you die too many times!
 

KingBroly

Banned
It's weird for me to read them saying they have some mind-blowing unique concept for this game. They say it's based out of OOT, so...I'm guessing it has something to do with those Time Arrows, but who knows.

I just want it to not be empty and full of fetch quests and collect-a-thons.
 
With the exception of Twilight Princess, I haven't really been thinking Zelda games were too samey, but it's still good to hear they are willing to continue and try to reinvent the series. As long as they're not adding racing missions, I'll probably be fine.
 

Phoenixus

Member
Yea.

There must be other ways to convey open, large scale without restoring to boring empty spaced out environments that kill all the pacing and momentum of a game.

If I wanted an open world title there's no shortage of that with Western games. Hopefully they're adding some sort of a twist here with their approach.

Same. I have severe Openworld fatigue, so I'd rather not have another XCX if possible.
 

NewGame

Banned
So much sauce on my rice and potatoes.

I wish Aonuma would just be like 'yeah so me and the guys all just played a sweet session of dungeons and dragons, now we're ready to make the new zelda game peaceout'
 

takriel

Member
The trailer at E3 is going to flip wigs.

"Please understand that Zelda U needs an additional year of development and will therefore skip this year's E3 entirely.

See you in another year. Meanwhile, have some more 20 seconds footage of Link riding Epona on grass."
 

DiracSea

Banned
I think there's a lot left to do new with the vague concept of "open world" tbh. That is where Zelda U still has the chance to impress people, even in a post-Witcher 3 world. When people complain about open world games, it's often the lack of meaningful quests and the padding in form of empty space you have to run/ride through to get from A to B. Even in a highly regarded game like Witcher 3, the world itself was pretty much non-interactive. You have your map and see some symbols on it, you go there, and it is always a bunch of red dots popping up, marking enemies that you have to defeat. Despite the vastness of the world, there's almost no sense of awe and wonder (maybe the one big exception: the swamp village, the witches and "that tree"; loved everything that happened there).

This is where Zelda U could re-define the concept of "open world". Now, this is not to be mixed up with what Skyward Sword did, because Skyward Sword is the worst 3D-Zelda-game, completely forsaking its overworld in favor of turning it into an artificial puzzle environment (and it is the Zelda that broke the "Zelda cycle", because I know many people, myself included, that ever since the initial playthrough have never touched it again). What I mean is a world that is filled with mysteries, not traditional puzzles.

For example, I loved how in Ocarina of Time there was a hint on some stone at Lake Hylia that would lead you to shooting an arrow into the morning sun, giving you access to fire arrows. That was a magical, whimsy moment. Same for when you were exploring the Lost Woods and, without being told to, find some skull kids that lead you to a sidequest with a heart piece for a reward. Another favorite moment of mine is when you, in TWW, reach Ichtusk island and you find out that it has been attack, you're too late, everything is destroyed. Despite nothing "happening", it gave me the shivers, imagining what gruesome stuff Ganondorf did here without anybody intervening.
All of those examples could me multiplied by the factor of 10 or more, to fill a vast world with meaningful secrets. And a new kind of puzzles, while we're at that. I have no interest anymore in the sort of puzzles that SS threw at you. Collecting five golden key pieces, collecting tad notes, etc. - I'm tired of those abstract, (again) artificial, "gamey" elements that take you out of the experience and remind you in such stark contrast with the beautiful environments, that you're playing but a video game. In a post-Portal era, I'd like to see the Zelda-series adopt more believable, natural puzzles (i.e. instead of pushing boulders or collecting "stuff", maybe there's a lava river and you can use ice arrows to freeze it. But you can also use your power gloves to push a giant rock into the river to stop its flow. Or you can use that gliding cloth from what we already saw to fly above the stream of lava. The point is: Have the player experiment. Not force "that one, and only ONE!" solution on us. Having only one way to solve a puzzle often leads to frustration and dead ends, punishing the player for exploring the world), as well as incorporating ingame-lore and hearsay to take as hints for more mystical puzzles (think of the fire arrows puzzle, except more elaborate, lengthier).

When I think of what kinda atmosphere I'd like to have in Zelda-games, I always think of the animated movie "The Last Unicorn". That's the kind of mix of whimsy, magical, but also dark and dangerous, brooding. So, I think there's still a lot to do with "open worlds" that has not been done, yet.



(Hi, btw., my first posting on GAF after waiting many months for activation. Kinda nervous, hope my first post didn't offend anybody :>)
 
The core foundation of those first two games, particularly the original, is still incredibly sound and could easily be modernized. I'd love to see Zelda go in that direction again.
While that may be the case, I've tried going back to those two and I haven't enjoyed myself.
The newer games might have a more set path, but they're also better designed because of it. Non linearity has its own limitations like having to build the game with the mindset that one wouldn't have more than a shield, sword, and a bow in Zelda U's case.
I'd rather they do like in previous Zelda games where you have the option of tackling one out of three dungeons available at one given time so the next set can be built with all those items in mind.
LBW is great, but it did feel limited because of it. Story wise, specifically which could be a problem in Zelda U.
Can't be too hard because of the rental system either.
I also the newer Zelda's never felt that linear. There's a sense of exploration in each game even if it's less than the original.
 

Seik

Banned
“Please look forward to it, because I think we’ll be able to make ‘something new’ like Ocarina of Time was,”

Oh, Aonuma, you have no idea how I'm looking forward to it... D:
 

benedictm

Banned
I think there's a lot left to do new with the vague concept of "open world" tbh. That is where Zelda U still has the chance to impress people, even in a post-Witcher 3 world. When people complain about open world games, it's often the lack of meaningful quests and the padding in form of empty space you have to run/ride through to get from A to B. Even in a highly regarded game like Witcher 3, the world itself was pretty much non-interactive. You have your map and see some symbols on it, you go there, and it is always a bunch of red dots popping up, marking enemies that you have to defeat. Despite the vastness of the world, there's almost no sense of awe and wonder (maybe the one big exception: the swamp village, the witches and "that tree"; loved everything that happened there).

This is where Zelda U could re-define the concept of "open world". Now, this is not to be mixed up with what Skyward Sword did, because Skyward Sword is the worst 3D-Zelda-game, completely forsaking its overworld in favor of turning it into an artificial puzzle environment (and it is the Zelda that broke the "Zelda cycle", because I know many people, myself included, that ever since the initial playthrough have never touched it again). What I mean is a world that is filled with mysteries, not traditional puzzles.

For example, I loved how in Ocarina of Time there was a hint on some stone at Lake Hylia that would lead you to shooting an arrow into the morning sun, giving you access to fire arrows. That was a magical, whimsy moment. Same for when you were exploring the Lost Woods and, without being told to, find some skull kids that lead you to a sidequest with a heart piece for a reward. Another favorite moment of mine is when you, in TWW, reach Ichtusk island and you find out that it has been attack, you're too late, everything is destroyed. Despite nothing "happening", it gave me the shivers, imagining what gruesome stuff Ganondorf did here without anybody intervening.
All of those examples could me multiplied by the factor of 10 or more, to fill a vast world with meaningful secrets. And a new kind of puzzles, while we're at that. I have no interest anymore in the sort of puzzles that SS threw at you. Collecting five golden key pieces, collecting tad notes, etc. - I'm tired of those abstract, (again) artificial, "gamey" elements that take you out of the experience and remind you in such stark contrast with the beautiful environments, that you're playing but a video game. In a post-Portal era, I'd like to see the Zelda-series adopt more believable, natural puzzles (i.e. instead of pushing boulders or collecting "stuff", maybe there's a lava river and you can use ice arrows to freeze it. But you can also use your power gloves to push a giant rock into the river to stop its flow. Or you can use that gliding cloth from what we already saw to fly above the stream of lava. The point is: Have the player experiment. Not force "that one, and only ONE!" solution on us. Having only one way to solve a puzzle often leads to frustration and dead ends, punishing the player for exploring the world), as well as incorporating ingame-lore and hearsay to take as hints for more mystical puzzles (think of the fire arrows puzzle, except more elaborate, lengthier).

When I think of what kinda atmosphere I'd like to have in Zelda-games, I always think of the animated movie "The Last Unicorn". That's the kind of mix of whimsy, magical, but also dark and dangerous, brooding. So, I think there's still a lot to do with "open worlds" that has not been done, yet.



(Hi, btw., my first posting on GAF after waiting many months for activation. Kinda nervous, hope my first post didn't offend anybody :>)

a lovely post. Welcome to GAF. You love Nintendo which is a great start. Now just start thinking the Souls games are the greatest things ever and you're all in :)
 

georly

Member
While that may be the case, I've tried going back to those two and I haven't enjoyed myself.
The newer games might have a more set path, but they're also better designed because of it. Non linearity has its own limitations like having to build the game with the mindset that one wouldn't have more than a shield, sword, and a bow in Zelda U's case.
I'd rather they do like in previous Zelda games where you have the option of tackling one out of three dungeons available at one given time so the next set can be built with all those items in mind.
LBW is great, but it did feel limited because of it. Story wise, specifically which could be a problem in Zelda U.
Can't be too hard because of the rental system either.
I also the newer Zelda's never felt that linear. There's a sense of exploration in each game even if it's less than the original.

You get MOMENTS where you feel like you can explore SOME things, but rarely are there points where I feel like I can go somewhere I shouldn't be going yet, which you got in zelda 1, Wind Waker, and to some degree ALttP/ALBW/OoT/MM. Areas where, after you explore, you realize the enemies are too hard or there's no progress to be made. Stuff like that gives the illusion that the world is bigger than it is and that there are things to look forward to overcoming (either with stronger equipment or new items).

TP/SS let you know, pretty clearly, where you can and can't go most of the game. They just lock stuff away from you. I just really hope there aren't arbitrary gates or doors keeping you from exploring certain areas in zelda U. Keep me out of dungeons, fine, but don't keep me in my hometown until i beat the first dungeon. Let me take a look at the world, see what the rest of the game has to offer.
 

ManeKast

Member
I think there's a lot left to do new with the vague concept of "open world" tbh. That is where Zelda U still has the chance to impress people, even in a post-Witcher 3 world. When people complain about open world games, it's often the lack of meaningful quests and the padding in form of empty space you have to run/ride through to get from A to B. Even in a highly regarded game like Witcher 3, the world itself was pretty much non-interactive. You have your map and see some symbols on it, you go there, and it is always a bunch of red dots popping up, marking enemies that you have to defeat. Despite the vastness of the world, there's almost no sense of awe and wonder (maybe the one big exception: the swamp village, the witches and "that tree"; loved everything that happened there).

This is where Zelda U could re-define the concept of "open world". Now, this is not to be mixed up with what Skyward Sword did, because Skyward Sword is the worst 3D-Zelda-game, completely forsaking its overworld in favor of turning it into an artificial puzzle environment (and it is the Zelda that broke the "Zelda cycle", because I know many people, myself included, that ever since the initial playthrough have never touched it again). What I mean is a world that is filled with mysteries, not traditional puzzles.

For example, I loved how in Ocarina of Time there was a hint on some stone at Lake Hylia that would lead you to shooting an arrow into the morning sun, giving you access to fire arrows. That was a magical, whimsy moment. Same for when you were exploring the Lost Woods and, without being told to, find some skull kids that lead you to a sidequest with a heart piece for a reward. Another favorite moment of mine is when you, in TWW, reach Ichtusk island and you find out that it has been attack, you're too late, everything is destroyed. Despite nothing "happening", it gave me the shivers, imagining what gruesome stuff Ganondorf did here without anybody intervening.
All of those examples could me multiplied by the factor of 10 or more, to fill a vast world with meaningful secrets. And a new kind of puzzles, while we're at that. I have no interest anymore in the sort of puzzles that SS threw at you. Collecting five golden key pieces, collecting tad notes, etc. - I'm tired of those abstract, (again) artificial, "gamey" elements that take you out of the experience and remind you in such stark contrast with the beautiful environments, that you're playing but a video game. In a post-Portal era, I'd like to see the Zelda-series adopt more believable, natural puzzles (i.e. instead of pushing boulders or collecting "stuff", maybe there's a lava river and you can use ice arrows to freeze it. But you can also use your power gloves to push a giant rock into the river to stop its flow. Or you can use that gliding cloth from what we already saw to fly above the stream of lava. The point is: Have the player experiment. Not force "that one, and only ONE!" solution on us. Having only one way to solve a puzzle often leads to frustration and dead ends, punishing the player for exploring the world), as well as incorporating ingame-lore and hearsay to take as hints for more mystical puzzles (think of the fire arrows puzzle, except more elaborate, lengthier).

When I think of what kinda atmosphere I'd like to have in Zelda-games, I always think of the animated movie "The Last Unicorn". That's the kind of mix of whimsy, magical, but also dark and dangerous, brooding. So, I think there's still a lot to do with "open worlds" that has not been done, yet.



(Hi, btw., my first posting on GAF after waiting many months for activation. Kinda nervous, hope my first post didn't offend anybody :>)

Wow rad post. Welcome aboard!
 

Illucio

Banned
Yea.

There must be other ways to convey open, large scale without restoring to boring empty spaced out environments that kill all the pacing and momentum of a game.

If I wanted an open world title there's no shortage of that with Western games. Hopefully they're adding some sort of a twist here with their approach.
This is one of the main reasons that killed Xenoblade X for me was that huge empty space of nothing breaking the momentum of everything the game had to offer. (Among other problems.)

When I think Open World done right I think Skyrim. No linear paths, the regions apart from certain buildings or caved are closed off. Nothing is locked out to you. Freedom to explore and do things you want at your own pace. And not forced to do everything in order to move along with the game. There was a huge focus on replayability so you could play multiple smaller adventures that if you so choose so could make longer.

I want Zelda to have that open world freedom, to have more quests like Majoras Mask with interconnecting plotlines and absurd/adventurous events happening in the background. To have choices to choose from and feel guilty or good about your actions by using imagery and cutscenes. Being able to click with the world with that emotional appeal and realism in the fantasy world, believing it's world and inhabitants are real people by having a human element to it, and having a story that isn't forced upon you but is seemingly revatively simple with clear objectives but is much deeper then originally thought if you personally dig deeper in the games world.
Then somewhere in between all of that, amazing artyle and graphics, equipment/puzzles, difficulty, and great gameplay mechanics.

Easier said then done.
 

Kurt

Member
This is one of the main reasons that killed Xenoblade X for me was that huge empty space of nothing breaking the momentum of everything the game had to offer. (Among other problems.)

When I think Open World done right I think Skyrim. No linear paths, the regions apart from certain buildings or caved are closed off. Nothing is locked out to you. Freedom to explore and do things you want at your own pace. And not forced to do everything in order to move along with the game. There was a huge focus on replayability so you could play multiple smaller adventures that if you so choose so could make longer.

I want Zelda to have that open world freedom, to have more quests like Majoras Mask with interconnecting plotlines and absurd/adventurous events happening in the background. To have choices to choose from and feel guilty or good about your actions by using imagery and cutscenes. Being able to click with the world with that emotional appeal and realism in the fantasy world, believing it's world and inhabitants are real people by having a human element to it, and having a story that isn't forced upon you but is seemingly revatively simple with clear objectives but is much deeper then originally thought if you personally dig deeper in the games world.
Then somewhere in between all of that, amazing artyle and graphics, equipment/puzzles, difficulty, and great gameplay mechanics.

Easier said then done.

You can have a open world with different path's which having large views. It doesn't have to be open as wow or xenoblade. I mean, think zelda lttp in 3D
 

Peterc

Member
You can have a open world with different path's which having large views. It doesn't have to be open as wow or xenoblade. I mean, think zelda lttp in 3D

Yes!

It was impossible to do this in oot, please let it happen with zelda wiiu!
 

Peru

Member
T

When I think Open World done right I think Skyrim. No linear paths, the regions apart from certain buildings or caved are closed off. Nothing is locked out to you. Freedom to explore and do things you want at your own pace. And not forced to do everything in order to move along with the game. There was a huge focus on replayability so you could play multiple smaller adventures that if you so choose so could make longer.

But Skyrim is a world that's first and foremost huge. And I don't want Zelda to become truly non-linear, even if I want the stuff that binds dungeons together to be shaken up.

What I hope for is a world that's big enough, with lots of fun. Doesn't have to be huge, and total freedom is not really a good direction for a Zelda that needs some semblence of an emotional narrative to bind things together. "Unlocking" paths can be fun. Metroid Prime is a great example of a world that felt organic and immersive, but was still fairly linear in its progression.
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
I think there's a lot left to do new with the vague concept of "open world" tbh. That is where Zelda U still has the chance to impress people, even in a post-Witcher 3 world. When people complain about open world games, it's often the lack of meaningful quests and the padding in form of empty space you have to run/ride through to get from A to B. Even in a highly regarded game like Witcher 3, the world itself was pretty much non-interactive. You have your map and see some symbols on it, you go there, and it is always a bunch of red dots popping up, marking enemies that you have to defeat. Despite the vastness of the world, there's almost no sense of awe and wonder (maybe the one big exception: the swamp village, the witches and "that tree"; loved everything that happened there).

This is where Zelda U could re-define the concept of "open world". Now, this is not to be mixed up with what Skyward Sword did, because Skyward Sword is the worst 3D-Zelda-game, completely forsaking its overworld in favor of turning it into an artificial puzzle environment (and it is the Zelda that broke the "Zelda cycle", because I know many people, myself included, that ever since the initial playthrough have never touched it again). What I mean is a world that is filled with mysteries, not traditional puzzles.

For example, I loved how in Ocarina of Time there was a hint on some stone at Lake Hylia that would lead you to shooting an arrow into the morning sun, giving you access to fire arrows. That was a magical, whimsy moment. Same for when you were exploring the Lost Woods and, without being told to, find some skull kids that lead you to a sidequest with a heart piece for a reward. Another favorite moment of mine is when you, in TWW, reach Ichtusk island and you find out that it has been attack, you're too late, everything is destroyed. Despite nothing "happening", it gave me the shivers, imagining what gruesome stuff Ganondorf did here without anybody intervening.
All of those examples could me multiplied by the factor of 10 or more, to fill a vast world with meaningful secrets. And a new kind of puzzles, while we're at that. I have no interest anymore in the sort of puzzles that SS threw at you. Collecting five golden key pieces, collecting tad notes, etc. - I'm tired of those abstract, (again) artificial, "gamey" elements that take you out of the experience and remind you in such stark contrast with the beautiful environments, that you're playing but a video game. In a post-Portal era, I'd like to see the Zelda-series adopt more believable, natural puzzles (i.e. instead of pushing boulders or collecting "stuff", maybe there's a lava river and you can use ice arrows to freeze it. But you can also use your power gloves to push a giant rock into the river to stop its flow. Or you can use that gliding cloth from what we already saw to fly above the stream of lava. The point is: Have the player experiment. Not force "that one, and only ONE!" solution on us. Having only one way to solve a puzzle often leads to frustration and dead ends, punishing the player for exploring the world), as well as incorporating ingame-lore and hearsay to take as hints for more mystical puzzles (think of the fire arrows puzzle, except more elaborate, lengthier).

When I think of what kinda atmosphere I'd like to have in Zelda-games, I always think of the animated movie "The Last Unicorn". That's the kind of mix of whimsy, magical, but also dark and dangerous, brooding. So, I think there's still a lot to do with "open worlds" that has not been done, yet.



(Hi, btw., my first posting on GAF after waiting many months for activation. Kinda nervous, hope my first post didn't offend anybody :>)

Great first post. This is exactly the type of thing that I want Zelda to get back to. Focus on player/gameplay driven interaction in story telling and puzzle solving that blends in with the gameworld itself. Let us really explore and play around in this vast open world they are creating rather than leading us down a very narrow path holding our hand.

Zelda games really have no reason to be so coddling to players these days. Mario has stuff like the Super Guide while Zelda itself already has a long history of a helper who should simply be given an option to help direct the player more directly. I mean in SS alone Fi was more than happy to chime in every 5 seconds telling me where to go. In a more open world Zelda where more natural puzzles and player driven exploration is utilized they could simply give players the option to ask who ever their companion is to tell them where to go exactly.

Players who don't need help won't ask them or listen further if they extend any advice, while players that feel lost or stuck can ask them what to do next. There's really no reason to make the game's obstacles so gamey and artificial as well as rather easy when there is a ready made feature that would allow players having a harder time to simply be shown how to advance. Plus there is stuff like Miiverse now which is another way players can get help within the game system.
 

Haganeren

Member
(and it is the Zelda that broke the "Zelda cycle", because I know many people, myself included, that ever since the initial playthrough have never touched it again).

Don't want to make you fear GAF but it feel like it's only in your head that the ZElda cycle was broken.

I know many people, myself included, that never touched Twilight Princess again and still hate it (or just doesn't found it very interesting) today. From my point of view, the "Zelda Cycle" could be broken here... But no because i see a lot more praise for the game now than when it was out.

And i see a lot more praise for Skyward Sword (that i actually liked despite some flaws) now than at the beginning... The Zelda Cycle is still strong.

But today, the magical word is "open world" so i actually think Zelda U will be well liked even with a non interactive overworld like The Witcher 3. (Personally, i loved the puzzle which were part of the overworld in SS... But i wouldn't mind having more interaction like the ones you liked, i'm quite open in that regard)
 

Diffense

Member
I had forgotten about the Fire Arrows that DiracSea mentioned but, yes, that was cool. OOT had a number of fascinating little secrets. I remember that a certain song would heal signs after you chopped them up. Also, IIRC, if you held a deku stick up to butterflies they'd become fairies. You could also catch a fish in a bottle just by using the bottle where you saw a fish in a stream. Those details helped to make the world more believable as a fantasy world even back then on the N64. In more recent 3D Zeldas, esp. post tWW, the worlds don't feel as rich and organic but like the game stages they really are. Zelda: SS was the natural culmination of that trend (though Lanayru's sense of history and lore was great).

So it seems that after creating a 3D Zelda where traditional puzzle-solving dominated (and many of SS's puzzles were really good) they are taking a step back to recall some of the other elements that made previous games great. After reading DiracSea's post I recalled a portion of the Zelda demonstration at the game awards in 2014. Aonuma mentioned that the trees would bear fruit at a certain time of year and that Link could pick and eat them. Those are the kind of silly little details that have been missing from recent 3D Zeldas. If they're paying attention to that, it's a good sign for those who want a more fleshed-out open world.
 

cireza

Member
I am simply hoping that we have an open world close to Zelda 1 on NES.

A real open world that you can explore, and where you find things by yourself. Those are the roots of the series.

I don't want an overly huge world full of nothing/stupid quests (go there, get 10 of this, kill 20 of that). The size must be good enough to keep the feeling of adventure without becoming tedious to navigate.

Having NPCs giving clues, and finding hidden dungeon entrances by myself would bring back some of those great moments I had in my childhood.

Being able to do dungeons in whatever order I want, understand things by myself. Like I got my ass kicked here/I can't reach this place, let's go explore somewhere else.

Or have a hard mode without all those texts, hints, and making the game more difficult.
 
1: Environmental puzzles that have a multitude of solutions that can be achieved through various combinations of items where the developer is sure you'll have at least one combination. This seems both a lot harder to program and limiting. Choice gameplay reduces the number of options a developer has considerably.

No.

Environmental puzzles don't have a multitude of solutions by design. They're basically locks where the items are the key.

It's because of this that I think they're a weak substitute for the combat challenges (that have variable difficulty depending on your weapons/items/armor/shields/hearts) and maze-like level designs (with multiple possible paths) present in the original games.

The strategy you use to clear the dungeon will always be the same because the puzzles only allow for one possible solution.

2: Enemy gauntlets that you can use any combination of weapons to kill. This sounds like an action RPG. If that's the meat of the dungeon and the rest is aLbW style puzzles, I will be disappointed.

Fun fact: currently Zelda dungeons are mostly ALBW style puzzles with very few (relatively light) combat challenges. I don't know why you're harping on ALBW when it's the same design we see in other Zelda games, apart from that you get the item before you ever set foot in the dungeon.

I'm simply proposing that we make the combat in dungeons actually have weight and actually serve as a threat that can keep the player from clearing the dungeon. I'm not proposing "enemy gauntlets" unless you think the dungeons in the NES games (and to a lesser extent LttP) were "enemy gauntlets."

In older Zelda games (particularly the NES games), whether or not you were good enough to beat the enemies in a dungeon was actually a really big factor in whether you decided to tackle it, or try out another dungeon. That dynamic no longer exists in Zelda games at all because you're always going to go to the same dungeons in the same order. In ALBW, there was no challenge scaling for enemies in dungeons, which is why I look at ALBW as a really terrible execution of a non-linear Zelda game.

One of the benefits of non-linearity is that it means you can challenge yourself to try different ways to complete the game depending on your skill level. If skill level doesn't matter, there's no challenge to trying out different paths, and it's basically just superficial.

3: Multiple dungeon paths. I don't like this idea. Multiple paths are rarely used well in games and split development. One good path is simply more feasible than 2 or more.

Assuming you can find the good path. How many people even know all the shortcuts in Zelda 1?
 
Speak for yourself. I much prefer traditional Asian or Pan-Asian vs the typically processed/deep fried Western diet. Most people I know would rather have sushi or a spring roll than a casserole. If more of the US felt the same way we wouldn't have an obesity/heart disease/diabetes/cancer epidemic.

I'm having a hard time understanding this post. For one, casseroles involve no frying while spring rolls do. Two, I'm not sure what casseroles have to do with cancer, or why they're somehow representative of a western diet
 

Ansatz

Member
I want Zelda to have that open world freedom, to have more quests like Majoras Mask with interconnecting plotlines and absurd/adventurous events happening in the background. To have choices to choose from and feel guilty or good about your actions by using imagery and cutscenes. Being able to click with the world with that emotional appeal and realism in the fantasy world, believing it's world and inhabitants are real people by having a human element to it, and having a story that isn't forced upon you but is seemingly revatively simple with clear objectives but is much deeper then originally thought if you personally dig deeper in the games world.

Are we talking about a video game developed by Nintendo EAD here, I mean it's one thing to ask for this type of experience from Monolith Soft or whatever. Nintendo is about creating interactive spaces, playgrounds of mechanics if you will, where the ultimate point is to manipulate the game's mechanics in such a way to achieve a goal set by the game. For example when you enter a dungeon, the goal is to reach the boss and defeat it. You do it by overcoming obstacles and solving puzzles on the way there.

Do you see the piece of heart up there (goal)? Now figure out a way to reach it by scanning the environment for clues and using your items to interact with the game world (method); that's what Zelda is. The adventure angle is how they dress it up, it's not the main focus of the games.

Now, I think the celshading/anime look might hurt its overall mainstream potential. It's not likely to garner a Skyrim level of interest and help propel the NX to the stratosphere, even if it's a really good game, but a classic reinvention could go a long way to help bring a lot more interest back into the Zelda camp.

This is why Zelda U won't change Nintendo's fortunes, the audience for a whimsical WRPG-like experience in the style of a cartoon/anime is very niche. Most people think that adults who play colorful games with mascot characters that wear silly hats are weirdos. It's probably a very expensive game and if it doesn't have an impact on the gaming community as a whole they'll revert back to puzzelda, in the same way they stripped Paper Mario of its RPG elements.
 

Hermii

Member
I am simply hoping that we have an open world close to Zelda 1 on NES.

A real open world that you can explore, and where you find things by yourself. Those are the roots of the series.

I don't want an overly huge world full of nothing/stupid quests (go there, get 10 of this, kill 20 of that). The size must be good enough to keep the feeling of adventure without becoming tedious to navigate.

Having NPCs giving clues, and finding hidden dungeon entrances by myself would bring back some of those great moments I had in my childhood.

Being able to do dungeons in whatever order I want, understand things by myself. Like I got my ass kicked here/I can't reach this place, let's go explore somewhere else.

Or have a hard mode without all those texts, hints, and making the game more difficult.

Its probably just me who suck, but I never found the second dungeon in Zelda 1.
 
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