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[Pineapple]

Good, it needed to be removed.

We all know how females are treated in this industry, and this out of character sexual pose is needless and unwarranted.

They need to remove the over sexualization of the other female characters as well (ie, d.va). It honestly has no place in this type of game, and it's sad to see some people in here supporting this kind of thing.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

I agree. People being upset by this change are silly.

This thread is silly
The removal is silly
Both sides are silly.
There ya go

 

[TheYanger]

Wait so the person had a problem with that pose and it being exposed to his daughter but was okay with all the shooting and what not? lol. I mean, the game looks like a cartoon but everyone is still shooting the hell out of each other. The pose is pretty tame anyway. It's not like they changed her character model.

So what you're saying is half irrelevent, and half just proving that taking it out is fine and people shouldn't act like petulent children over it then?

 

[Sou Da]

There is no need to be passive aggressive. The insults are disingenuous and do you far less a favor than the obtuse point you are attempting to make. Cheer up buckaroo, life is too short to be so angry.

It's not passive aggression, I was just covering my bases in case you were joking.

Try not be so condescending next time, buckaroo.

 

[Siege.exe]

Yo. Guys. Lets be real here, that ain't a butt worth fighting for. Pick your battles, hold that L today and save better booties tomorrow.

 

[captainpat]

People already pulled the censorship card already.

So two wrongs obviously make a right? This isn't kindergarten

 

[JP_]

Really, pulling out this bullshit?

I just peeked and there's at least 4 threads on their front page lol. So, not sure how that's bullshit.

edit: I wasn't trying to accuse you specifically -- was just talking generally

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

What if for whatever reason there are a few people out there who think that pose doesnt fit Bayonetta's character?

I'd genuinely like to read a justification sexualization not fitting in to Bayonetta's character.

 

[afternoon delight]

Everything must be stupid internet tribal warfare.

That's the second terrorist law.

 

[TheYanger]

So two wrongs obviously make a right? This isn't kindergarten

The only thing wrong here is people claiming that their opinion matters more than that of the developer of the game on the subject.

 

[ponpo]

Yo. Guys. Lets be real here, that ain't a butt worth fighting for. Pick your battles, hold that L today and save better booties tomorrow.

Small firm butts > enormous meme asses. You've been hypnotized by pop culture.

 

[Chris23]

Buttgate

It begins.

 

[chaobreaker]

Upset Gamer Clarifies: Developer’s Creative Freedom Only Applies For “Stuff I Agree With”

How did this site go under my radar? So much gold.

 

[Yukinari]

I'd genuinely like to read a justification sexualization not fitting in to Bayonetta's character.

Give me some time and ill write up some complete drivel and send it to Kamiya.

 

[DrArchon]

I see no problem with this. The game is still in active development and Blizzard decided to change something. That kinda stuff happens all the time.

Now you might say "Oh, they only changed it because people whined about it!" And? So what? All the matters is that Blizzard agreed with the arguments presented that the win pose should be changed. Those same arguments could've come from Blizzard internal or private testing of the game (assuming there was no semi-public Beta in this scenario) and the result would've been the exact same.

 

[Cynar]

yeah it's weird how worked up people get over such a tiny thing being removed from a game.

Or how people sexualize everything and objectify it even when it's just a butt

 

[Demoskinos]

What does this industry have against butts?

DOAX 3 is out there fighting the good fight for butts. Check out page 47 of the OT. >_>

 

[blankempathy]

"Why aren't the poses that aren't focusing on her sexuality sexual?"

The other poses aren't sexual because she's not flaunting her ass at you while staring down at it. Pushing your torso forward when you're saluting or dancing or whatever else to people in front of you, is not the same as pushing your ass backwards to people behind you, despite the fact that physically they're not that different.

Really now? Because I'm pretty sure someone on all fours sticking out there ass even if I only saw them from the front is a sexual pose. Even if I can't see them from the back. Even if they're looking forward. What if I was standing behind her while shes saluting? I'm pretty sure shes sticking her ass out more during that pose then the other.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

So two wrongs obviously make a right? This isn't kindergarten

But this is the internet.

 

[Servbot24]

Or how people sexualize everything and objectify it even when it's just a butt

butts are pretty obviously sexual tho

 

[ponpo]

DOAX 3 is out there fighting the good fight for butts. Check out page 47 of the OT. >_>

It's only 26 pages long :^)

 

[V-Faction]

#SavetheButts

#UnitedAssOne

 

[captainpat]

The only thing wrong here is people claiming that their opinion matters more than that of the developer of the game on the subject.

Considering those devs are trying to sell it to them, their opinion definitely matters more.

 

[Kinyou]

Did you read the OP? That cover is covered by the arguments presented.

That's not Blizzard's reasoning though. They say anything that makes people feel less heroic or uncomfortable should go. That it conflicts with the lore isn't addressed at all.

 

[Professor Lich]

This thread is silly
The removal is silly
Both sides are silly.
There ya go

To be fair, the whole game is kind of silly too, so it all fits!

For me personally, I'm fine with whatever Blizzard feels like doing since they're the ones developing the game, regardless of where it originates.

 

[partyphone]

Or how people sexualize everything and objectify it even when it's just a butt

lol is that the spin you're going with? sad.

 

[Palculator]

DOAX 3 is out there fighting the good fight for butts. Check out page 47 of the OT. >_>

We already have a post containing everything you need to know in one nice package.

 

[captainpat]

But this is the internet.

I.....I can't argue with that.

 

[Demoskinos]

It's only 26 pages long :^)

Says 51 pages for me.

 

[Zolo]

yeah it's weird how worked up people get over such a tiny thing being removed from a game.

I imagine more people are upset about the content being pulled than the content itself in this case.

Of course, that pretty much throws out the 'game dev vision' argument used especially in this case where the game devs removed it due to it not seeming in character (I have to imagine that's the reason since it seems the highlighted female characters are still sexualized).

 

[DocSeuss]

I think projection is a form of well reasoned criticism. They used evidence in other bits of the game to back up their perspective of a character. Blizzard is getting honest feedback about how the players perceive their characters. How is that not a good thing?

This wasn't just reduced to "I don't like this thing." That's intensely reductive. Perhaps you're better at articulating yourself for your clients, but as far as feedback for a closed beta goes I'd say that forum post is pretty good. Not too long, not outraged at all, just honest feedback.

I would not read the forum thread as the majority of players disagreeing with the original post. Well, until this became a news story for anti-SJW's and the like. Now everyone comes out of the woodwork to disagree (because of the principles of the matter, butts and censorship and SJW's and "no wonder trump is so popular").

Well, I'm sure that some games probably upped the fan service indirectly due to their player base, but it's probably not as obviously cause and effect like this one.

I don't see how anyone can see the original post as well-reasoned criticism. It's literally just "this character is positive things, and I don't understand how a character in a cutesy pose could fit in with that." It's madonna/whore complex stuff, basically going "a good character can't do anything attractive" and people going "yeah, yeah, that makes sense." That's what's annoying me. It's shit critique. That doesn't mean it's invalid feelings that the person is experiencing, but it's certainly not a well-made point by any means. It's just someone going "I can't accept good characters who might wanna appear attractive." It annoys me that anyone would change their work based on their community because that's ultimately how I am in regards to my own work. So I hate seeing it done. Consider it a personal hangup.

 

[Joyful]

Good, it needed to be removed.

We all know how females are treated in this industry, and this out of character sexual pose is needless and unwarranted.

They need to remove the over sexualization of the other female characters as well (ie, d.va). It honestly has no place in this type of game, and it's sad to see some people in here supporting this kind of thing.

so whats the difference between sexual and over sexual

 

[Lime]

Why is it that gamers always get so irrationally upset and angry when their constant exposure to female sexualization is lessened? Does tits, butts, and generic character poses aimed at tittilation have to be in every single thing these people consume? Aren't there like sexualization of the female body everywhere already?

Are these people even aware of how embarrassing they look by crying "censorship" over one less instance of virtual tittilation? Can't they just go find another instance of arousal if they cannot function in daily life without some virtual character butt pose that we've seen in so many instances already? It's frankly mind-numbing why they are so incredibly bothered by one less virtual butt pose in their teenage/YA entertainment product.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

That's not Blizzard's reasoning though. They say anything that makes people feel less heroic or uncomfortable should go. That it conflicts with the lore isn't addressed at all.

I'm guessing HR/PR probably handled the forum post here, because it's a pretty off-base response.

 

[chaobreaker]

Exactly. Having the male characters do it too would solve absolutely nothing. Those are always the lamest responses to issues like these.

Honestly I don't think anyone who suggest half-measures crap like that or jiggle physics bulges in other threads are arguing in good faith.

 

[TheYanger]

Really now? Because I'm pretty sure someone on all fours sticking out there ass even if I only saw them from the front is a sexual pose. Even if I can't see them from the back. Even if they're looking forward. What if I was standing behind her while shes saluting? I'm pretty sure shes sticking her ass out more during that pose then the other.

Again, if you happen to see someone's ass that is not the same thing as them SHOWING you their ass, flaunting it at you.

If her salute was about her trying to shove her ass in your face that would be a good point, but she doesn't so it's not.

Tell me, if a girl tripped and landed with her privates on yours, would that be as sexual as if she was intentionally getting hot and heavy with you (even when you still have your clothes on)? No. Intent is everything.

If you want to see her ass, look at the myriad screenshots. Hell google her, you can see more than that.

Considering those devs are trying to sell it to them, their opinion definitely matters more.

Thios is the worst argument I've ever heard. They're trying to sell the game to a wide market, not YOU. I'm sure there are folk that won't buy it, but would if the characters were all nude but they don't pander to that crowd either.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

To be fair, the whole game is kind of silly too, so it all fits!

For me personally, I'm fine with whatever Blizzard feels like doing since they're the ones developing the game, regardless of where it originates.

Yea that's my take I Dont Care ! . That said time to bail people are saying outrage culture,getting offended, I've seen someone say people ok with the pose should be ashamed both sides are about to get while probably funny more so annoying..life is to short it's a butt pose(she doesn't have one) in or out who cares

 

[Siege.exe]

Small firm butts > enormous meme asses. You've been hypnotized by pop culture.

It doesn't have to be giant to be worth saving, just like small and firm doesn't mean it has to be a pancake. There's middle ground here, and it needs to be explored.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

I mean Blizzard could do whatever they want with the game their making. Alas, outrage culture going to outrage culture.

 

[JP_]

Considering those devs are trying to sell it to them, their opinion definitely matters more.

I thought they made it pretty clear they're also trying to sell it to other people but ok.

 

[snikky]

Really now? Because I'm pretty sure someone on all fours sticking out there ass even if I only saw them from the front is a sexual pose. Even if I can't see them from the back. Even if they're looking forward. What if I was standing behind her while shes saluting? I'm pretty sure shes sticking her ass out more during that pose then the other.

Unless the camera defaults to behind her while she's saluting, you're not standing behind her.

 

[bearythebear]

I'm glad that Blizzard is making changes like this. Fuck the haters.

 

[Messofanego]

That's a gamergate embellishment. It made fans uncomfortable, blizzard decided they wanted to be all inclusive and not exclude anyone, so they removed it.

Check the actual blue post:

"We'll replace the pose. We want *everyone* to feel strong and heroic in our community. The last thing we want to do is make someone feel uncomfortable, under-appreciated or misrepresented.

Apologies and we'll continue to try to do better."

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20743015583?page=11#post-210

Quote from above in the same thread:

"But her personality is youthful and innocent and besides all that, do we really know she is emotionally and intellectually 26 years old since she was adrift in time for an extended period?

Again, it's not that a female is being sexualized that makes me uncomfortable with this pose. I am 100% for it when it's appropiate (Widow, for instance). But this particular hero's personality seems anathema to sexualization, and that's what makes it pretty gross."

This too:

It doesn't fit the character. The pose is still part of Widowmaker, who it does fit with:


http://i.imgur.com/BuAnvuY.png

But I'm sure there will be plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth anyway.

Well, there it is, case closed.

 

[Dmax3901]

I think there's lots of interesting points on both sides but this thread is full of all kinds of unhelpful shit so... I'm gonna just sit out of this one.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

This thread is silly
The removal is silly
Both sides are silly.
There ya go

Not really, I learned that blizzard listens to it fans.
The removal was warranted. It just pandering.
Also you have this dumb stuff:

God forbid the female form be sexualized.

 

[manfestival]

It's not passive aggression, I was just covering my bases in case you were joking.

Try not be so condescending next time, buckaroo.

Clearly that's what your post was. An attempt to cover your bases... makes total sense. Let's be insulting to cover our bases and then pull out the "just in case" card whenever you get called out on it. Then finishing it with a snide remark. Why even bother in the first place then?

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Which is why it's stupid that people are now up in arms - there is context, everyone in the beta can see every other animation and pose she has. This one was blatantly against the grain.



Missing the point, the point is people are saying the male characters have the pose too so it's equal. No, it's not, no, they don't. Widow has a similar one (though still it's more vertical), but for widow IT MAKES SENSE. For tracer it does not. Again: Tracer can be sexy while still retaining her personality, she doesn't have to do that shit to do it.

You know, I honestly think some of this is projection. When I look at that pose, I don't think "nice ass". Beyond what I said about that earlier, I can acknowledge it has a little sexy flair but I honestly do see it as a playful thing. If a woman wants to be overtly sexual with her posture, there are a lot of other ways she can do it, whether IRL or in a video game, and I just don't see that here. IMO it's nothing too extreme in my eyes, and I'd say the same thing if I were a woman.

That being said, I don't particularly care either way. It's not my own creation, and it's not like this change is going to be the end of the world or anything. There are other sources I can go for my butt fix, no big deal. And if this helps the game reach an overall more receptive audience and avoid unnecessary controversy, then it's the right decision. I'm just saying that if it were up to me, and the decision were in my hands, I wouldn't even be aware of people thinking this were an issue until well after the game was out.

 

[stufte]

The people finding offense in a butt have some serious issues. Everyone has a butt, you have a butt, I have a butt. It's not like the animation was her rubbing it on the screen or grabbing it or anything. Jesus.

 

[YoYo Switch]

see the thing about the whole "but changing it was their creative decision" is that the original version is what they intended to put in, people cried sexism and when people cry sexism, it's hard to disagree with them without looking like the bad guy, so they get pressured into changing it, and upset the other side too

meanwhile the bullies who changed it in the first place are deluding themselves that this was their creative decision to change. like, no dude, they wouldn't have done it in the first place if this is what they wanted to do

from where i am sitting, it seems that the developer changed their original art to appease outside pressures, and admitted it in a half limped apology

i bet that the guy who designed dat ass wasn't thinking about inclusivity when they designed it, they're just saying that to get people off their back. and unfortunately in a twitter fueled game critic industry that's filled with negative press regarding sexy women, they don't what their service based game to get killed by negative or no coverage. so they changed their original design not to "please everyone" but to please the people that could bring their game down. no one cares about pleasing the "bad guys" who love tits and ass in their games.

i will concede that changing it was ultimately their decision and that if they truly really wanted to leave it as is, they would have been able to. no one forced them to do so. they could have left it in and face the negative press they might have gotten (only reason this is a story tho is that it got changed.). but to deny that there are outside pressures. and that multiple people from the top of blizzard whose sole job its to turn a profit didn't give the order to have this changed, to deny that, is not looking at the whole picture. it's denial straight up. and i know me making this argument. i won't win it. because I'm a bad guy who really likes tracer's ass.

 

[Dance Inferno]

I don't see how anyone can see the original post as well-reasoned criticism. It's literally just "this character is positive things, and I don't understand how a character in a cutesy pose could fit in with that." It's madonna/whore complex stuff.

If you can't see the logic/reason in the original post just because you disagree with it then that's your problem. It was written very rationally and clearly outlined the reasons why the Tracer pose was off-putting. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it a bad argument.