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Why Do Independent Game Developers Take So Long To Make Games? (Great devblog post)

Well Ubisoft half asses all their games.

Is this the new code words for "lazy dev"?

I am sure a lot of devs are working hard but you have to wonder if some indies are seeking perfection that doesn't really matter. If you look at Retro/Grade, which the developer spent 5 years on, it was perfected to every detail; only problem is the basic concept wasn't fun.

You also have to wonder with games like SpyParty, if the developer should spend less time showing off the game every year and being on podcasts and just should release the game. We have heard of the game by now and it has become a bit of a joke.
 
Yeah, the article wasn't very insightful. It was yet another "woe are developers" article. I got it. Your job is not easy. No one's job is easy.

Farm out the red tape to business people for shares in your profits. Get managers on staff. Focus on making your game.
You know all that takes money, right? How can you say "focus on making your game" when the whole point is that a lot of indie devs can't just focus on making their game and have to also play double duty as businessmen and manager in starting their company, hiring partners, etc.
 

Thud

Member
Most have to start from scratch, do multiple functions they may be new at and have a small team. If one thing gets delayed the whole thing gets delayed.

Besides that, making a game isn't that easy as well. Countless hours can go in for a level under a minute.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
Yeah, the article wasn't very insightful. It was yet another "woe are developers" article. I got it. Your job is not easy. No one's job is easy.

Farm out the red tape to business people for shares in your profits. Get managers on staff. Focus on making your game.

Even for a gamerr, thats a whole bunch of uninformed bilk you wrote.

There was no 'woe is me', just an explanation of why timescales are as long as they are.

Game development is fucking hard. My jobs after I left the industry have all been substantially better paid, shorter hours, and easier.

All those things require money, which if you knew the first thing about game dev, you would know is all but absent until you release an indie game, and mostly absent after as well.
 

DedValve

Banned
Yeah, the article wasn't very insightful. It was yet another "woe are developers" article. I got it. Your job is not easy. No one's job is easy.

Farm out the red tape to business people for shares in your profits. Get managers on staff. Focus on making your game.

Check out these 14 weird simple steps to making games development easy. Indie developers don't want you to know!!
 

~Cross~

Member
It can't hurt though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

This book was released in 1975 and its still incredibly relevant in today's programming world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks’_law

It most certainly can and WILL hurt adding more people into a project thats already suffering from delays. The extra input from people not accustomed to whats going on will slow down its development further, as those people will need to be brought up to speed. Add in brain drains from employees leaving the company and improper or none existent documentation on the processes they are using and it could be fatal to any game/program.
 

Composer

Member
Well Ubisoft half asses all their games. A lot of big studios like Naughty Dog have multiple teams working on different things.

Implications that devs are lazy or 'half-assing' are some of the most idiotic and frankly, hurtful things gamers have learned to say. We should all try to sway away from this kind of behavior.
 
The more articles like this that explain to the general public how indies need to cope with dec time and other problems the better. Being informed will make more people appreciate whats going on with game development and not treat us as disposable 'lazy dev' machines.


Speaking as an indie developer:

Yup.

Basically.
 

Interfectum

Member
Yeah, the article wasn't very insightful. It was yet another "woe are developers" article. I got it. Your job is not easy. No one's job is easy.

Farm out the red tape to business people for shares in your profits. Get managers on staff. Focus on making your game.

Eh, I've worked as a C/C++/C#/etc programmer in many fields for 20+ years and my hobbiest/semi-serious run at indie game development was one of the hardest, most thankless things I've ever done. I don't know how indie devs do it other than having sheer love for what they do.

There are so many aspects to think about for even releasing a single game that you want to see a profit on. The business side, the community side, graphics, sound, gameplay, is it fun, is it long enough, pricing, platform, etc. If any one of those things falter it could lead your company to financial ruin.

And the kicker is, there is no roadmap or instruction book here. There is no guarantee that even if you do everything right and follow all the rules you will make a living. It's a 4-5 year gamble with thousands of hours of work and tens of thousands spent. One wrong step, one wrong decision in those 4-5 years could lead to "lul only 30 fps?/no mod support?/where is android port??? fuck this game, next!"
 

snarge

Member
I found the article insightful, even as a slightly experienced indie.

For me, the biggest hold up is marketing. MARKETING. I just want to make the damn game. Now I have to make a trailer? I don't know how to make a damn trailer. Can someone else make a trailer for me? No? Ok, I'll go make the trailer. Rinse and repeat with all marketing materials.

Have I "social-media'd" enough today? I'll grab some video, convert to a small ass gif, post that. Lose 4 followers, gain 2. Whatever.

Gotta log on to indiedb and tigsource. Remind people that I'm making a game so they don't forget.

Gotta send out a build to streamers. First, I have to find streamers that would actually stream my game. Personalize an email so they know I'm not just some spammer. Wait for response...

Find journalists that cover and care about the type of game I'm making. Send them personalized emails, so they know I'm not just some spammer. Wait for their response...

Need to attend local meetups and gamedev conventions to promote.

I used to hate the marketing people at the non-indie companies I worked at, but now I have a whole new respect for what they do.
 
I browse the TIGSource devlogs on a daily basis and the dedication and drive of indie devs never ceases to impress.

I follow Rain World closest, and that's been in development since 2011. Or how the dev of Irkalla left his job so he can work full time on his game. Or the lengthy detailed posts about something as simple (from the player perspective) as adding audio triggers and music themed for different areas. Or how a game evolves from the most basic placeholder into a FEZ or Ghost Song or Vane.

Checked out Game Maker once and after a week of trying the tutorial, it only made me appreciate what devs do even more
 
It's the same when doing ANY project. Not just developing a game. Anyone who works as a project manager or anything similar can attest to the amount of paperwork and reporting and processes you have to follow before certain milestones can be reached.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Thanks so much for the respectful comments and kind words guys/gals!

@spazchicken, have a read - you might be surprised that we go into a bit more detail than that ;)

Based on your pun, Humble is publishing you? That's a cool initiative on their part if so. Regardless, good luck with the game.
 

madquills

Neo Member
A bit disappointed with that. I expected more talk around specifics, development life cycles and what admin/legal work they actually do. Instead, we just got, we have to make a logo, hire people, do admin and legal stuff.

We've been hearing that a bit actually, and rest assured we'll be going into way more detail further down the line. At this point, we just wanted to give an overview and pretty much say 'hi' as we've been deliberately quiet for a long time.

In the coming months we'll be going much more into depth into our processes and even revealing more information about the game ;)
 

slash000

Zeboyd Games
A big reason "indies take so long" is because they announce/discuss their game project from the very beginning, perhaps even before or just as the project starts. Then the 1, 2, 3, 4+ year long journey of making it *begins*.

Big studios might work on a game for 2 years before even announcing it, or teasing it, then not release any substantial info for another year or two. This is on top of being a very structured system with huge teams, budget, management, etc etc. which indies obviously don't have.


Point being is that sometimes indies seem to "take forever" because you hear about a game when it begins dev, rather than near the end; time between hearing about it and release is much larger for many indies as compared to bigger studios/publishers who try to organize a giant marketing campaign that needs proper focus and timing. They also don't like to announce stuff until there's no chance they're gonna cancel it (which they still do sometimes).
 

madquills

Neo Member
Based on your pun, Humble is publishing you? That's a cool initiative on their part if so. Regardless, good luck with the game.

We're not allowed to talk about who we're working with, but it's not Humble ;)

Also I made a pun? 0.o Haha I didn't realise!

Thanks for the luck. No matter how hard we work we're always going to need a little extra luck :)
 

ScHlAuChi

Member
In the coming months we'll be going much more into depth into our processes and even revealing more information about the game ;)

The game looks absolutely amazing - I have been following it for a long time!
Cant wait for more info :)

P.S. check your Private Messages :)
 

Serick

Married Member
I learned two things from this thread.

1) I need this game. Now. Why is it not out yet? Will throwing money at my screen help?

2) Indie developers work harder than I initially thought. It never occurred to me that handling the "business" side of game development as a small independent studio is such an arduous task.
 
Just to go with our own development:

Breath of Death VII took us 3 months to make. I'm still shocked we were able to make it so quickly, especially since we had little experience to begin with, but the big thing is we limited everything extensively - NES-inspired graphics, playtime was only 3-5 hours, minimal animation, simple UI, limited number of equipment choices & abilities, etc.

Cthulhu Saves the World took us about 8-9 months to make and then we spent a few extra months on enhancing the game and porting it to PC/Steam. Going in, I thought it would be a super quick job - hey, we did our first game in 3 months so this one should take even less time - but the increased game length, depth (more characters than could fit in the party at once), and improved visuals all acted as different multipliers to the amount of work involved.

Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3 & 4 - These each took about a year to make. Towards the end of development of the 3rd game, we improved our map creation process to make it easier to make high quality maps quickly which is why the 4th game is so much bigger despite not taking longer to make.

You look at our first four games and see dev times of around a year or less. Then you look at our upcoming RPG, Cosmic Star Heroine, and by the time it comes out (June-Aug 2016), it'll have been about 3 years. Why such a huge increase in development time? There are a lot of factors.

1) Had to largely start from scratch. All of our past games were made with XNA and with each new game, we'd take the engine from our last game and build upon it. However, with Cosmic Star Heroine, we switched over to Unity, both because we wanted to make it easier to go multiplatform and because XNA was discontinued by Microsoft. Not only did we have to rebuild our engine (one which was more sophisticated than our last game) but we had to learn how to use Unity.

2) We wanted the game on a low power system. Sometime mid-development, we decided to test the game out on the Vita which was a system that we really like and had promised to release on. The results were not promising. Crashes due to lack of RAM, frame rates in the single digits, it was a mess. It turns out that the game that we had created that worked okay on my strong gamer PC wasn't very well optimized. Because of this, we had to go back and redo a lot of stuff in order to make things more efficient. Now, the game runs much better on all platforms (flies on the PS4 or a decent PC) and runs quite well on Vita (generally 50-60 fps, good load times, etc.) but it was a lot of extra work.

3) More advanced stuff. We decided to have combat directly on maps which means we needed a lot more frames of animation (most abilities need animation in 4 directions as opposed to just one like you would have in a traditional system) as well as additional code to handle setting up battles and such. Another big addition was our use of Sega CD style cutscenes which meant more art assets, additional code & having to set up each cutscene (they're animated via code like they did with the Lunar games, not just by playing a video file).

4) The game is a lot longer. This wasn't really our intention starting out but Cosmic Star Heroine is approximately twice as long as the longest one of our previous games. More game = more work.

When you combine all this with the fact that we announced the game very early on, it may seem that we've been working on the game for an overly long time, but I hope these explanations make it clear why it's taking so much longer than our past work. And like the article indicated, sometimes you have to interrupt development to focus on something else like the business aspect or marketing.
 

nOoblet16

Member
"Why does its take so long when Ubisoft can make a new Assasin's Creed every year"

— the words of someone who has never seen how long Ubisoft's credits sequence goes on for

Also to be fair, the studios that release yearly games don't actually make those games in a year either anyway. Ubi / Acti have multiple teams for Call of Duty & AC and each of them still take several years per game.
Syndicate was made in a year though. There was a blog post by a developer who talked about how busy it was and how he didn't really like it since the development was compartmentalised and even outsourced, because he preferred small teams where people know each other and what they are doing.
 
I learned two things from this thread.

1) I need this game. Now. Why is it not out yet? Will throwing money at my screen help?

2) Indie developers work harder than I initially thought. It never occurred to me that handling the "business" side of game development as a small independent studio is such an arduous task.
1) Been following this game since the original game jam entry and trust me, I feel the same. It looks so good
gVse0zy.jpg

Fuic7An.gif

PGYsSIE.png

KOqveLF.gif

hH8KE5E.png
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
I'm beginning work on my first project with a good friend of mine and I feel like what's going to be the most trouble is getting the business side taken care.

We've schedule an appointment with a small business counseling firm and they're going to run us through the process of getting the LLC, Trademarks, et cetera. I also went to school for communication media so I feel confident in my ability to handle any potential social media and inquiries with websites and such.

I'm optimistic about our first project and I'm also 100% sure I'm in for a very, very rude awakening. Ready for the journey and whatever lessons it may bring!
 

madquills

Neo Member
I'm beginning work on my first project with a good friend of mine and I feel like what's going to be the most trouble is getting the business side taken care.

We've schedule an appointment with a small business counseling firm and they're going to run us through the process of getting the LLC, Trademarks, et cetera. I also went to school for communication media so I feel confident in my ability to handle any potential social media and inquiries with websites and such.

I'm optimistic about our first project and I'm also 100% sure I'm in for a very, very rude awakening. Ready for the journey and whatever lessons it may bring!

The business side is a pain in the bum, but it's so important to get it right and start it well ahead of time. Getting professional advice is a good idea, also places like Gamasutra and here on NG are a brilliant source of advice.

Good luck and don't let the admin get you down :)
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
The business side is a pain in the bum, but it's so important to get it right and start it well ahead of time. Getting professional advice is a good idea, also places like Gamasutra and here on NG are a brilliant source of advice.

Good luck and don't let the admin get you down :)
I really appreciate that! ^_^
 

Dreavus

Member
I have a friend who is working on a project when he can with a few other people. They aren't very far along at all but he wants to try and make a "go of it". Haven't heard him talk about setting up the business side of things at all... maybe he hasn't considered it yet.

Are there any resources I could maybe point him to about that stuff? He isn't hiring and paying people or anything, it's more of a hobby for them at this point (all are friends IRL), but it sounds like the kind of thing that becomes a big headache later if you don't tackle it early on.

EDIT: ^^ just saw your post madquills. Is it more of an individualized thing then?
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Please read up on the wiki article I posted about Brook's law.

I am talking about his analogy of adding more woman doesn't speed up how long it takes for a baby to develop.

Yes, adding more people to a project doesn't automatically mean things will go faster in a linear manner, especially once a team gets to a certain size if the production pipeline hasn't been setup to scale properly, but for very small teams (1-5 people) the mere addition of one or two more people who can pick up tasks that can be done in parallel can have a huge impact on how long it takes. Especially when it comes to things like asset creation/iteration, quality assurance testing, and playtesting.

I've worked in production/project management for both very small software teams and very very large AAA game projects and am familiar with the issues of both extremes. The link you cite does not generally apply to all situations, but I do agree it is an issue I've encountered. But to say it's something that always applies in all cases would be poor project management. The potential positives and negatives of adding more people to a project should always be evaluated before making a decision.
 

~Cross~

Member
I am talking about his analogy of adding more woman doesn't speed up how long it takes for a baby to develop.

Yes, adding more people to a project doesn't automatically mean things will go faster in a linear manner, especially once a team gets to a certain size if the production pipeline hasn't been setup to scale properly, but for very small teams (1-5 people) the mere addition of one or two more people who can pick up tasks that can be done in parallel can have a huge impact on how long it takes. Especially when it comes to things like asset creation/iteration, quality assurance testing, and playtesting.

I've worked in production/project management for both very small software teams and very very large AAA game projects and am familiar with the issues of both extremes. The link you cite does not generally apply to all situations, but I do agree it is an issue I've encountered. But to say it's something that always applies in all cases would be poor project management. The potential positives and negatives of adding more people to a project should always be evaluated before making a decision.

I know, I'm not saying this applies to every single part of game development. Certain things scale better and are easily more divisible. QA, making models, rigging textures, etc are easy enough to divide among a bigger studio. Developing toolsets/engines, particular coding like physics and such, not so much.

The things that are easily divisible aren't the showstopers that seem to be plaguing indie development. Usually when we hear a project is dead in the waters is when their lead programmer just quits/gives up.
 
I browse the TIGSource devlogs on a daily basis and the dedication and drive of indie devs never ceases to impress.

I follow Rain World closest, and that's been in development since 2011. Or how the dev of Irkalla left his job so he can work full time on his game. Or the lengthy detailed posts about something as simple (from the player perspective) as adding audio triggers and music themed for different areas. Or how a game evolves from the most basic placeholder into a FEZ or Ghost Song or Vane.

Checked ou Gamemaker once and after a week of trying the tutorial, it only made appreciate what devs do even more


I'm terrible at maintaining Beacon's tigsource page :/
I really enjoy sharing content and posting all the things on social media, I've sort of become the main guy on the team who at least actively tries (or is more inclined) to keep up the momentum. But yah, full time 'day' job plus actually working on the project, the game design, the music, woof, it's tough.

Making our debut trailer took a few weeks of time out of focusing on the game, followed by being swept up in all the GDC stuff. That's a lot of time neglecting polish for the game!
It's just one of those things you have to commit to, it ain't glamorous, but if you know it's worth it, you just keep on pushing ahead. It's massively rewarding though if things start to work out and you can see the progress over the course of the year, even if it's slow because your whole team is essentially part time.

We went from this: http://i.imgur.com/8HXfbMZ.jpg
To this: http://i.imgur.com/D6YPdv8.jpg
As a bonus, this is what it looked like for the first few months! http://i.imgur.com/659wzh2.png

It's stuff I'd like to write about once the game is done. More of the behind the scenes logistics of setting up a company (which the article mentions some of), actually trying to get a project not just off the ground, but to see it through. We had a game prior to Beacon which we literally had to shelve, as we had to switch engines after not being able to obtain a license for Source (this was in the middle of prepping for a kickstarter too), and once that game finally got back up to scratch on UE4, the scope of the project was just becoming unfeasible to manage in our small team. That was over 2 years of solid work put on hiatus. Really difficult, big decisions. It's common to have a false start when trying to establish that first solid product.

Another thing to note is that trying to sort out funding and/or publisher support is haaaaaaaaaarrdd. Even in the scenarios where they have approached you. It's never, ever straightfoward and different folks all offer a slightly different variation of the same deal. It's the rock and a hard place situation. It can be very easy to jump the gun and potentially give up something like your IP to secure funding, which if it turns out to be a smash hit, means you've lost all rights to make another one and could hurt you in the long run. But at the same time, you're pushing back a potential release window further as you try to scope out what's best for the game and delay getting the team on full time. You're never going to find a perfect deal obviously, but it's definitely a lot more time-consuming than I'd ever imagine. Nobody ever teaches you this stuff going into independent development, you HAVE to figure out, otherwise your game might just slip through the cracks. And that sucks and is super scary to consider, but also very likely.

Rami Ismail spits a lot of hard truths in this talk he did. It's definitely worth the watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZn9a9-Gyc0&ab_channel=ctrl500.com

The business side is a pain in the bum, but it's so important to get it right and start it well ahead of time. Getting professional advice is a good idea, also places like Gamasutra and here on NG are a brilliant source of advice.

Good luck and don't let the admin get you down :)

Hi Danny u butt <3
 

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
You know all that takes money, right? How can you say "focus on making your game" when the whole point is that a lot of indie devs can't just focus on making their game and have to also play double duty as businessmen and manager in starting their company, hiring partners, etc.
That's why I said farm out shares. Lots of people will jump in if there's a quality starting product. I'm happy to bankroll a developer. But frankly, 99.9% of dreamers should stay dreaming. That's just the reality.

And again, the article in the OP is lacking. There's no real insight. Games are a business, too. Got it. I'd have loved a more in depth article.

Eh, I've worked as a C/C++/C#/etc programmer in many fields for 20+ years and my hobbiest/semi-serious run at indie game development was one of the hardest, most thankless things I've ever done. I don't know how indie devs do it other than having sheer love for what they do.

There are so many aspects to think about for even releasing a single game that you want to see a profit on. The business side, the community side, graphics, sound, gameplay, is it fun, is it long enough, pricing, platform, etc. If any one of those things falter it could lead your company to financial ruin.

And the kicker is, there is no roadmap or instruction book here. There is no guarantee that even if you do everything right and follow all the rules you will make a living. It's a 4-5 year gamble with thousands of hours of work and tens of thousands spent. One wrong step, one wrong decision in those 4-5 years could lead to "lul only 30 fps?/no mod support?/where is android port??? fuck this game, next!"
You're right. But that's how all real success is. Even in gaming, look at Concerned Ape. He went through that pain and is now rolling in cash. No risk, no reward. That's business. Or they could always work on the next Assassins Creed. Less risk, less reward.
 
That's why I said farm out shares. Lots of people will jump in if there's a quality starting product. I'm happy to bankroll a developer. But frankly, 99.9% of dreamers should stay dreaming. That's just the reality.
Isn't that what crowdfunding is?

The thing is a developer needs to get that point where they have something quality. They need to get to that stage.
You'd bankroll something that looks like this? You think people would be jumping in? Because this is what a starting project looks like.

Here's months and years later
 

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Crowdfunding is not farming out shares. No one benefits but the developers. If Kickstarter involved a share of the developer profits, it would be great. As is, it's anti consumer. IMO.

I understand where you're coming from regarding starting projects.
 
Crowdfunding is not farming out shares. No one benefits but the developers. If Kickstarter involved a share of the developer profits, it would be great. As is, it's anti consumer. IMO.

I understand where you're coming from regarding starting projects.
FIG allows investments.

But I really doubt that many people would be jumping in to buy shares for a game in development, One, a developer has to do enough of the business side to even be able to offer shares. And two, buying shares for a game that could be years away, that isn't guaranteed to sell? That isn't realistic. Most people aren't Devolver or Adult Swim
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
1) Been following this game since the original game jam entry and trust me, I feel the same. It looks so good
http://i.imgur.com/gVse0zy.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Fuic7An.gif[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PGYsSIE.png[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/KOqveLF.gif[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hH8KE5E.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

What is the title of this game? Odd Tales? But Google seem to suggest that it's actually The Last Night?

Also, for what platforms? Can't seem to find the info as well. Those pic looked absolutely marvelous.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
We're not allowed to talk about who we're working with, but it's not Humble ;)

Also I made a pun? 0.o Haha I didn't realise!

You said

We can’t tell you where that freedom is coming from (yet) but suffice to say we’re humbled to have the opportunities we have.

Even "suffice[d] to say" they you're humbled. I really thought I was on to something! Hahaha. Well, look forward to finding out who is helping you out later on! :D
 
What is the title of this game? Odd Tales? But Google seem to suggest that it's actually The Last Night?

Also, for what platforms? Can't seem to find the info as well. Those pic looked absolutely marvelous.
Game is The Last Night, dev team is Odd Tales. Coming to PC, Mac, and "consoles" (was previously just PS4 so I imagine maybe also Xbox too now)

Some details
It stars a man with a gun, a bounty hunter-type character faced with a series of life-altering decisions. The game diverges depending on the choices each player makes over a series of connected nights, each one starting and ending in the hero's apartment. Choose one action on night three and it impacts the events of night six or seven
ezgif.com-crop.gif
 

madquills

Neo Member
What is the title of this game? Odd Tales? But Google seem to suggest that it's actually The Last Night?

Also, for what platforms? Can't seem to find the info as well. Those pic looked absolutely marvelous.

As More Badass says!

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussions and kinds words. More details in further dev blogs over the coming months :)
 
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