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Pokémon Sun/Moon to contain multiple islands

Rutger

Banned
finding a bird, a rat, a few bugs and a radish isn't exactly a ton of variety either, but that's the sort of thing you see in many fields and forests.

Alternatively, a rock, a bat, a fairy and another rat

A single route doesn't need to have a ton of variety, though I love how Kalos embraced the massive amount of Pokemon the series has.

The problem with water routes is that they don't really change up the Pokemon that can be found in them. The first water route in Hoenn shows us what we can expect to find in all those water routes around the eighth badge.
 
I think when it comes to Diffculty, people forget that Gen 3 was a cryptic game. They hardly told you what to do or where to go. Hence the endless surfing to find where to dive or what routes to take.
Gen was really an adventure game, hardly any interruptions and a vast world to explorer even if it was by sea.

The games got way easier after that those in my opinion
 

aadiboy

Member
Wow, people have a warped view.

Series director, Junichi Masuda, has stated that he doesn't like the idea of kids having to spend money to get more of a game that should have been there at the outset, so there will be no DLC, no microtransactions. Deal with it.
I guess this really means no more third versions then, huh?
 
I guess this really means no more third versions then, huh?

No. It means precisely what it says. I do think traditional third versions are very unlikely at this point though.

Masuda said:
I like the idea that Pokémon can be enjoyed with just one piece of software. You buy the game and it can be enjoyed just with that one software that you buy. That’s a key point for Game Freak.
 

aadiboy

Member
No. It means precisely what it says. I do think traditional third versions are very unlikely at this point though.
Well, it has been 2 gens without one. I guess they figured out that they could make more money by constantly making new games instead of releasing updated versions of previous ones.
 
Well, it has been 2 gens without one. I guess they figured out that they could make more money by constantly making new games instead of releasing updated versions of previous ones.

B/W2 had all the same added areas, added features a third version usually would have had. The only difference being that the story was more substantially updated as was the region. It wasn't a move away from third versions but rather a move to make their additions better.

So it has only been one gen without a third version although not a traditional one due to the different story. Also what would you call ORAS if not an updated version of a previous game?
 
I think when it comes to Diffculty, people forget that Gen 3 was a cryptic game. They hardly told you what to do or where to go. Hence the endless surfing to find where to dive or what routes to take.
Gen was really an adventure game, hardly any interruptions and a vast world to explorer even if it was by sea.

The games got way easier after that those in my opinion

I agree, but I don't think it was that cryptic. My kid self was able to traverse through the dive spots to find treasure, and the path to Sootopolis without much struggle. All I did was read the map and tried figuring out which dive spots led to which areas. It truly felt like an adventure game as you mentioned.

Sometimes, I wonder if frustration and lack of patience to use given resources to travel affects people's view of Gen III's difficulty.

And at this point, what can you do to make the AI better without cheating (aka knowing exactly what you'll switch into)? The only way to make a good pokemon single player battle is to have the trainers run a single strategy to be countered by the player and have 6 pokemon, AI changes would simply have to be either in pursuit of the strategy or hitting a weakness that the player would have the sense to counter in some way. That's it, and it would be wholly satisfying to the player, I assure you. Routes and caves would be designed to wear down the player and the gyms test individual strategies associated with type. I rather enjoyed the Sinnoh gyms because of this idea.

On the topic of AI, It took decades to get chess AI to a competent level and even more years to get them to beat grandmasters and chess had hundreds of years to get all the metagame knowledge it needed. Now Pokemon is definitely not as in depth as Chess but the metagames and mind aspects of out thinking the other person are similar aspects. It's just not a reasonable expectation from a single player turn based series to ask AI of that level to run prediction algorithms and be an enjoyable experience in single player. (Not regarding the fact that most "AI" in games is actually complex Scripting to begin with)

My point wasn't about making a cheating AI system, it was about Set not being that effective in terms of introducing challenge. It's merely an illusion of challenge that one gets until you realize you can still game the system so to speak.

That being said, there are many things you could do. First, it starts with not making stupid Pokemon choices for certain trainers. There are 721 available Pokemon, there's really no need to make rosters consisting of 6 Magikarps/etc. Additionally, create a strategy that you want the trainer to have, for instance, do you want the trainer to stall? Be Hyperoffensive? etc. And then you distribute movesets and so on. You can create an effective and challenging combat without resorting to cheating AI by exploring these fundamental gameplay issues. It's just a question of whether GameFreak wants to.
 

vinnygambini

Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Wow, people have a warped view.

Series director, Junichi Masuda, has stated that he doesn't like the idea of kids having to spend money to get more of a game that should have been there at the outset, so there will be no DLC, no microtransactions. Deal with it.

You're right. The Pokemon Company would rather kids buy TCG, plushies, coloring books, etc. and not share additional revenue with Nintendo.

:p
 
I think if there is going to be a lot of surfing they could change encounters up.

Maybe have it like grass on land where there are certain "deep" patches of sea you can encounter pokemon in but leave the remaining majority encounter-free.
 
My point wasn't about making a cheating AI system, it was about Set not being that effective in terms of introducing challenge. It's merely an illusion of challenge that one gets until you realize you can still game the system so to speak.

That being said, there are many things you could do. First, it starts with not making stupid Pokemon choices for certain trainers. There are 721 available Pokemon, there's really no need to make rosters consisting of 6 Magikarps/etc. Additionally, create a strategy that you want the trainer to have, for instance, do you want the trainer to stall? Be Hyperoffensive? etc. And then you distribute movesets and so on. You can create an effective and challenging combat without resorting to cheating AI by exploring these fundamental gameplay issues. It's just a question of whether GameFreak wants to.

On your second point, that's basically what I said.

Gaming the system is sort of the point with single player games. But a good balance in single player is avoiding the feeling of breaking the game or rewarding min/max. I don't really feel like I've broken many if any pokemon games over their knees in set even when I've used my resources that aren't legends. The point of Set is to make you the player more subject to the balancing of the game so that you do play with more of the mechanics even if they are easy, you can't counter every move the opponent makes, you have to give up a turn to do so usually. And for the most part I found it rather successful in my experience particularly with Black and White 2 and Platinum which have solid level curves. Even ORAS was relatively fine with emerald's level curve on set. X and Y is mostly the odd one out here and probably the one I certainly agree has the most issues in regards to its balancing.

Of course I would love if the game produced more switching pokemon AI and specific trainer strategies, those would certainly improve the system they have here and they're certainly aware of many of the strategies in the pokemon competitive scene. So it does come down to a choice on gamefreak's part.

On the story of this island for a different note, I'm thinking that Gamefreak's finally going to tackle the Mom's feelings on their kid traveling around the world. That's my theory.
 

GoldStarz

Member
New York is much more than Manhattan.

France is much more than Northern France.

Japan is much more than Kanto.

You get my point here.
And Unova covers more than Manhattan and in fact covers areas both in New York and New Jersey (although thematically covers a range of US locations) while France and Japan are entire countries and states are not.

So yeah, not really assuming much that a tiny map of a single island is only a proportion of a much larger area.

Mostly about region design, postgame, lowered difficulty, etc.

Almost none of that has been specifically about Sun/Moon and on the only one of those things relevant to this thread (region design) all that's been said is
>It's a new region (obvious)
>It's made up of multiple islands (also obvious)
 
Not surprising, but nice to hear nonetheless.

I wonder how far they'll stretch it- I'd like to think there'll be a little more diversity than simply sticking to a tropical theme, but it'd seem a little out of place to have an ice-themed island, for example.
 

aadiboy

Member
Not surprising, but nice to hear nonetheless.

I wonder how far they'll stretch it- I'd like to think there'll be a little more diversity than simply sticking to a tropical theme, but it'd seem a little out of place to have an ice-themed island, for example.
They could easily do an ice cave. Also a fire/lava island seems obvious.
 

Raonak

Banned
I really liked how the Sevii islands were setup in FRLG.

Hope they use the ferry extensively instead of making us surf miles to the next island.
 
Almost none of that has been specifically about Sun/Moon and on the only one of those things relevant to this thread (region design) all that's been said is
>It's a new region (obvious)
>It's made up of multiple islands (also obvious)

That doesn't mean that whatever was said about previous 6th gen games won't affect Sun/Moon's development in some way. Especially considering the demographics that they're targeting. I will say, if there are positive changes, I will eat crow.
 

wmlk

Member
That doesn't mean that whatever was said about previous 6th gen games won't affect Sun/Moon's development in some way. Especially considering the demographics that they're targeting. I will say, if there are positive changes, I will eat crow.

I'm on the same boat as you. With there being multiple islands, I think it makes it an even bigger candidate to have simple sub-regions as islands. Basically impossible to get lost.
 

Dryk

Member
I mean anyone who looked at the map should have known that. It has two towns and a max of three routes on it.
 
Surfing is lame and islands means lots of surfing which means lots of water pokemon. We don't need more water pokemon.

Water pokemon are lame. Except Poliwhirl/Poliwrath.
 

woodland

Member
I really liked how the Sevii islands were setup in FRLG.

Hope they use the ferry extensively instead of making us surf miles to the next island.

Sevii islands were fantastic, felt really cool to visit new places, have some extra story stuff after the E4. Played Ash Grey not too long ago and the Orange Islands were just fun as shit.
 

wmlk

Member
I really liked how the Sevii islands were setup in FRLG.

Hope they use the ferry extensively instead of making us surf miles to the next island.

I agree that Sevii Islands were great, but that was because they were postgame areas and designed differently as a result. Postgame routes are almost always superior, tbh.
 

vareon

Member
I hope this means you can seamlessly explore an island and maybe a masked loading screen to different island. With proportions becoming a bit more realistic, the world needs to be bigger as a result.
 
Hope they don't overload us with Water types. We are still overloaded from G3, thankfully the setting gives lots of opportunity for fire, grass, and ground/rock types id imagine. Forests and volcanoes.

Then again they can also make whatever they want and not stick to an actual theme. Give me multiple fire pokemon early on please! Oh and a new bug type for early game. Screw these worm, cocoon, butterfly archetypes.

.... also zubats
 

Aters

Member
If they don't include diving this time......


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Gold.
 

gardfish

Member
I've been plastering this same opinion everywhere every single time the subject comes up, but here it is again: Hoenn's problem wasn't that it had a lot of water routes, it was that they were all backloaded into the final quarter of the game and that they were basically large stretches where everything looked the same and there was no wild Pokemon diversity. Even if you have to surf between islands (and I'm not entirely convinced that you do), an island-hopping region means that you'll only be dealing with one water route at a time broken up with substantial stretches of island exploration. And if they actually take advantage of the diversity of the 120+ water-type Pokemon, that'll be even better.
 
A single route doesn't need to have a ton of variety, though I love how Kalos embraced the massive amount of Pokemon the series has.

The problem with water routes is that they don't really change up the Pokemon that can be found in them. The first water route in Hoenn shows us what we can expect to find in all those water routes around the eighth badge.

I loved Kalos in that regard, but maybe it was just me, but it was almost tiring knowing I'd have to capture 75% of the creatures I ran into because there were so many per route

And about water routes at least we move from Tentacools to Tentacruels!
 

Zubz

Banned
Soaring made it so that you didn't always need a Pokémon with Fly; maybe there'll be a new mechanic like that with Surf/other Water moves? Honestly, if HM's were all replaced with similar mechanics, I wouldn't mind traversing the islands at all. But so soon after the Hoenn remakes... I mean, I'd still play the game, but I could see this getting really annoying, real fast.
 
Something really neat about ORAS that I really liked was that after dealing with the Primals you had another set of pokemon just pop up and that shit was awesome.

Oh and the Dex Nav was a really cool variety feature, hope for its return (probably not gonna happen lmao).
 

Nanashrew

Banned
With so many Islands I'm sure you won't have to surf everywhere. There will be boat rides, and you can fly too. Water will likely have exploration and underwater caves with secrets for the explorers.

No need to be mad about water, it's the life source of us all.
 

Kinsei

Banned
With so many Islands I'm sure you won't have to surf everywhere. There will be boat rides, and you can fly too. Water will likely have exploration and underwater caves with secrets for the explorers.

No need to be mad about water, it's the life source of us all.

Don't forget about soaring. I can't see that mechanic staying exclusive to ORAS.
 

Crayolan

Member
Maybe the Orange Islands adventure was a huge inspiration for Game Freak? Hmm....

If the Orange Islands inspired anything, it was probably the Sevii Islands from FRLG.

I really doubt they're looking to it for inspiration at all so many years later.

Soaring is shit though.

Being able to fly without a fly pokemon but still by using a pokemon's abilities is definitely not "shit". It's a great solution to the HM issue and similar things should be done for other HMs.
 
A single route doesn't need to have a ton of variety, though I love how Kalos embraced the massive amount of Pokemon the series has.

The problem with water routes is that they don't really change up the Pokemon that can be found in them. The first water route in Hoenn shows us what we can expect to find in all those water routes around the eighth badge.
Fair enough. I think, though, that hoenn actually does diversity pretty well, problem is that those routes are multifaceted in a way that doesn't necessarily help. By dividing the pokemon in to surfing encounters, diving encounters, and fishing encounters across 3 rods, any single thing ends up being a bit underwhelming.

Like I said, though, Hoenn actually isn't that bad. Most routes have something interesting in terms of pokemon scavenger hunts from Relicanth to Horsea or Corsola.
Soaring is shit though.
Nice feature, but yeah I never used it.
 
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