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[John Dunbar]

Let's pretend that massive anti-catholic sentiments would start brewing up in Italy, for whatever reason, and this would culminate with them deciding that they do not want the Holy See in the middle of their capital, and they would say they no longer recognise the Lateran Treaty. Their military (or more like a handful of police officers) would escort the Pope and the Cardinals to the border and tell them that they can go to France or wherever the Pope went when he was kicked out of Rome during the Middle Ages, just as long as they get the hell out of Italy. Vatican would then just be turned into some giant museum in the middle of Rome.

Less drastically, let's say Italy just embargoed the Vatican. As I understand, the Vatican is dependent on Italy for water, electricity, and probably pretty much everything else. They just build an enormous wall around the place, Trump style, and say nothing goes in or out, except unless the residents of Vatican want to leave Italy entirely.

I'm just curious, what would the international reaction to such a situation be, assuming that things outside Italy were more or less as they are now. Would there be a military coalition to restore the Pope to the Vatican? Sanctions or embargoes against Italy? Harsh condemnation but no real action? Shrugs and general indifference? Excommunication would probably not do the trick.

 

[Tagyhag]

Every nation that listens to the Pope would turn against you and you'd get destroyed. It's why you wait until you have the majority of map control and just listen to the Pope's stupid demands until you can safely take over.

 

[LCGeek]

Italiy can't take on jesuits, such a silly notion.

 

[sphagnum]

The church would just set up shop elsewhere but there would probably be a big boycott against Italy.

 

[lazygecko]

I just had Rome declare war against the Vatican City in Civ5 a couple of days ago.

 

[StudsMcKewl]

The Pope would call the banners and rally against the Italian forces.

 

[Team Alucard]

Anti-Catholic sentiment in a country that is 70% Catholic?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Not much I think. Christian countries will make some threats and then offer to receive the Pope to give him a new place. The Vatican itself isn't really a Holy site, so it's not really that important.

 

[AnathemicOne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPHRIjI3hXs

Vatican City is silly

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Its a sovereign State in western Europe. You can't do that.
Edit: also Pope calls a new Crusade!

 

[davepoobond]

Vatican is its own country, so what would Italy have to gain from violating international law and taking over another country's territory?

 

[John Dunbar]

Anti-Catholic sentiment in a country that is 70% Catholic?

obvious i'm implying that something happens that makes most of them reject catholicsm, or at least dislike the vatican enough not to care if they're kicked out.

 

[MMarston]

I just had Rome declare war against the Vatican City in Civ5 a couple of days ago.

Nice going, Gandhi.

 

[antonz]

Considering how tiny Vatican City is the effects on Italy would never be worth it

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

You would have to deal with the Iscariot Organization (Vatican Section XIII)

 

[GK86]

World War V.

That's right, we would skip straight to WW five.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Considering how tiny Vatican City is the effects on Italy would never be worth it

Bruh, Italy might NEED that hill one day

 

[John Dunbar]

Considering how tiny Vatican City is the effects on Italy would never be worth it

but what i am asking is what those effects would be.

 

[John Kowalski]

Countries would trip over themselves convincing the papacy of their good weather, food and practising population. It's too much tourism money not to.

 

[univariate]

What would be the incentive for Italy to do something like that? It's hard to be hypothetical about something that is nonsensical.

 

[John Dunbar]

What would be the incentive for Italy to do something like that? It's hard to be hypothetical about something that is nonsensical.

i don't know, some ultra popular political movement that convinced their citizens that the vatican existing within rome is an insult to their sovereignty and that the lateran treaty was a fascist ploy.

let's just say that they think they have a good reason to do it. it's not like it would be the first time a country did something completely against their self-interest out of pride or other silly reasons.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

but what i am asking is what those effects would be.

If we're going full Tom Clancy here, Probably a short war by a coalition led by the US to reimpose the papacy...Which would then occupy Vatican City and surrounding area.

 

[univariate]

i don't know, some ultra popular political movement that convinced their citizens that the vatican existing within rome is an insult to their sovereignty and that the lateran treaty was a fascist ploy.

let's just say that they think they have a good reason to do it. it's not like it would be the first time a country did something completely against their self-interest out of pride or other silly reasons.

To me, it seems like Italy benefits from the Vatican (it is literally the capital of Christianity, tourism, etc...)
A more interesting hypothesis would be if the Vatican took over Italy. Maybe Dan Brown can make that the premise for his next novel.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I can't imagine any way Italy would come out ahead. There's no reason to take over the Vatican besides transparent desire for plunder.

If it came to it, the UNSC would probably force the Italians out and bring back the Pope. Which would be pretty weird, but I don't think the Security Council is interested in setting a precedent that a government can exile and take over any religious group it wants.

 

[Lord Panda]

The Templar and the Faith Militant would rise and defend the Vatican. The Vatican would also deploy all their WMD holy and magical relics and artefacts against their adversaries.

 

[davepoobond]

World War V.

That's right, we would skip straight to WW five.

its not a product, its a service

 

[ghostjoke]

We'd party like it was the 11th century AD.

 

[BennyBlanco]

massive anti-catholic sentiments in Italy

 

[John Dunbar]

Well, I've converted Rome to the Sunni faith many times in Europa Universalis IV, so it could happen.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There would be a bunch of rabble in the UN and then the Vatican would go somewhere else.

 

[Quick]

The invasion triggers Instrumentality and we all turn into a sea of human goop.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

The earth swallows Italy and Vatican is left as a tiny island.

You don't mess up with god

 

[TemplaerDude]

God probably wouldn't be too stoked.

 

[lastplayed]

They'd need to get through the Swiss Guard first, and they haven't even reached their final form.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Well, I've converted Rome to the Sunni faith many times in Europa Universalis IV, so it could happen.

I need to try the Ottomans. I've been messing with the Timurds and they are straight up garbage.

 

[oti]

Vatican is its own country, so what would Italy have to gain from violating international law and taking over another country's territory?

Turning it into the fanciest dance club the world has ever seen.

 

[SecretMoblin]

I can't imagine any way Italy would come out ahead. There's no reason to take over the Vatican besides transparent desire for plunder.

If it came to it, the UNSC would probably force the Italians out and bring back the Pope. Which would be pretty weird, but I don't think the Security Council is interested in setting a precedent that a government can exile and take over any religious group it wants.

wait what?

a permanent unsc member literally did exactly that, lmao

 

[Brakke]

When's the last time Italy even beat anyone? Ethiopia, barely? Not that worried for the Big Papa, tbh.

 

[God Dayumm]

i don't know, some ultra popular political movement that convinced their citizens that the vatican existing within rome is an insult to their sovereignty and that the lateran treaty was a fascist ploy.

let's just say that they think they have a good reason to do it. it's not like it would be the first time a country did something completely against their self-interest out of pride or other silly reasons.

So like Hitler with the Jews? in that case this is what would happen: The rest of the European Union would brutalize some place in the Middle East to house the New Vatican. This new country would commit genocide after genocide after genocide but you cannot criticize it because you would be called anti-Catholic. Also, US candidates would be tripping themselves over who will give the most money to the New Vatican instead of focusing on actual issues. And they will be praised for it because Jesus. Then Yasss Queen will do some proxy warmongering over there and everyone lives happily ever after.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Whenever I read "Holy See" I do it in an old timey gangster accent.

"The italians are trying to take over the Vatican, What we gunna do boss"

"Defend it with your life boys, It's Holy See"

 

[CosmicQueso]

Why the hell would Italy want to do that when they get so many religious tourism euro out of it?

This is such a preposterous idea on its face that it zooms past at ludicrous speed.

 

[Clockwork5]

The Swiss would wipe them off the map.

/s

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Every nation that listens to the Pope would turn against you and you'd get destroyed. It's why you wait until you have the majority of map control and just listen to the Pope's stupid demands until you can safely take over.

Yeah, I tend to save the Papacy for last because he often respawns with 5k - 10k troups if you remove and occupy his lands, even if you've garrisoned the land, lowered the taxes entirely, and placed a bunch of spies there.

 

[Volimar]

The Swiss guard mows down the Italian army en masse.

 

[Escape Goat]

What if Cambodia invaded Norway?

 

[Kain]

We need another Borgia Pope asap

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I just had Rome declare war against the Vatican City in Civ5 a couple of days ago.

Conquering them is always one of my first moves when uniting Italy in EU4. You get -1 Diplomatic reputation for occupying Rome tho

 

[Hickbilly Deluxe]

The Swiss guard mows down the Italian army en masse.

They are considered one of the worlds elite units, strangely enough. They are also armed to the teeth, and are trained to fight to the death, so yah. They would lose, but not before making it a costly victory.

 

[Blargonaut]

Well, I'm no expert on entertaining the farcical whimsies of unprecedented alternative history, mind you, but I'd expect a unified and inevitably armed response from all predominantly Catholic countries worldwide; a response similar to the international response to the besieging of the foreign legation quarter in Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion, with the Catholic coalition sending their expeditionary forces to liberate the defiled Vatican amidst social media cries of 'novum crusade'.

The Pope and his retinue will accept eviction voluntarily to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, and in exile he will voice out constantly in an attempt to stop the masses from committing riots and atrocities, but ultimately to no avail. In the fervour and outrage of the public against Italy's actions, the Pope will eventually be betrayed by his Cardinals, his words warped towards conquest and not peace, and from atop the back-stabbed figure a new Holy Empire will be born, seated in Rio de Janeiro at the feet of the mighty icon of vengeance itself, bearing its name... the Republic of the Redeemer.

From their new tropical throne, the Redeemers will launch a two-pronged assault against Italy, both from within (sleeper agents, bribery, political backing of converted officials, inciting the remnant Catholics to riot, etc.) and without (careful hijacking of mostly-automated oil tankers in international waters, then steering them back to Rio where they will be retrofitted into fleets of anti-air barges, troop landers, battleships and submarines for a Mediterranean naval assault on Rome, maintaining their disguises as industrial craft until the devastating surprise reveal within attack range of the city).

NATO and the UN will be caught off-guard and incapable of supporting Italy, due to the intense Catholic turmoil within their own borders launching all their member countries into religious civil wars. Both organizations will implode and dissolve in the chaos.

After the 21st-century sacking of the capital, the Redeemers will assume imperial authority with the help of the Italian government who was comprised of their sleeper agents all along, then annex the rest of Europe peacefully with threat of utter annihilation if they do not comply. Their empire stretches from South America, Mexico and across the Atlantic, to the entirety of tired Europe.

Meanwhile, ISIS will have been taking full advantage of the unrest in the West, with their New Caliphate having been easily established across the Middle East and Africa by the time the Republic of the Redeemer annexes Europe.

During all this, barely surviving the religious civil wars intact, the remnants of the populations of Canada and the US will evacuate only their best and brightest on American carrier fleets, across the Pacific to Asia and Australia, harried all the way by Redeemer rigs, which are forced to turn back before angering the East. Despite uneasy acceptance into the local populations, thus from the old and powerful foundations of manufacturing and manpower will the Pacific Combination arise, an unassailable giant of business upon which all the world still relies on for its exported goods... for now.

And in the ashes of North America, those left behind by the carriers will be forced to adapt or die, forgotten by all as the Scavengers...

Spoiler

WESTWOOD PRESENTS

COMMAND & CONQUER: DOGMA

 

[Blargonaut]

Spoiler

along with a RISE OF THE PROXIES expansion pack, where you play as a new PMC faction led by an ex-Swiss Guard mercenary commander of the lost Pope's retinue, who is given a second chance for vengeance on a Pacific Combination payroll to rally mercenaries and outcasts in a guerilla rebellion against the Redeemers and the New Caliphate