-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS4 Neo presentation might have leaked
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Bitch Pudding
Member
Dlacy13g
Member
Was this not the argument of PS2 owners would stick to PS3 since they had the largest library and PS3 at lauch was BC for almost all PS2 games.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It is another PS4 (at minimum double the GPU power), etc., that plays the same games. They are not launching a new platform. They do not need that large of a window. We can get the very same info with a shorter window. They are still in the market to sell PS4's that are on the shelves now.
We would never have heard the Scorpio announcement at this E3, if marketshare roles were reversed.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
One of the first things Andrew House said (unprompted) is how he likes the Apple available now strategy. That is more than a hint of how Sony are doing things for Neo.
InsaneTiger
Member
Besides Andrew House and other executives have acknowledged it's existence they are waiting for the games to be ready to show off. I'm sure people want to see a tangible difference not just, "MOAR POWER!"
Chris_Rivera
Member
So, wouldn't they also have pre-orders for Neo, like the PSVR? PSVR did get a fairly simple announcement.
I don't think it's coming this October 😩
I don't think it's coming this October 😩
jim2point0
Banned
Yes. People did not know that because it's WRONG.
I just don't know how you come to the conclusion that 2560x1440 is "2K" when the K refers to the horizontal pixels in the resolution. 2560 is closer to 3K than it is to 2K.
It's also pretty obvious that 1920x1080 was derived from 2048x1080 (true 2K) when 16:9 became a standard. Oy.....
Wouldn't Neo mode have a new pipeline that's not attached to the PS4 pipeline?
PS4 mode 1.84TF of FP32 operations vs Neo mode 4.2TF of FP32 or 8.4TF of FP16 operations.
Neo mode has a goal of reaching 4K so it could make sacrifices in precision to get there.
At the end of the day it's going to be PS4/Xbox One games in 4K , for Sony it would have taken about 7.5TF to brute force a 1080P PS4 game to a 4K PS4 game while Microsoft can get 1080P Xbox One games in 4K with just over 5TF .
So unless Sony has a plan in place that would get them a 8TF GPU they might as well stick to their plan for cheap 4K..
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You lost me on this one... can you elaborate?
Not all PS3s were BC. Also physical goods can be traded in for some return which can help you buy games on a different platform
The big difference this time is digital, plus proper full BC. You have invested money in your digital collection and you can't sell it on so that encourages you to stay with the same platform. Of course people will still change, but it will require a relatively larger reason to do so
Funny you mention the digital library. I agree with you 100% these are not 1 dollar apps that make switching phone eco system not to expensive. But this is my biggest grip with Sony this generation. I bought a lot of PS1 classics on the PS3 and Sony has not let me play those on the PS4 yet. I am not asking for PS3 emulation that is impossible. I don't think making a PS1 emulator is asking a lot. One of the reasons I have not bought much digital this generation on the PS4.
LurkFish17
Member
Do we even really want to know?
family_guy
Member
It may not be the solution you're looking for, but if you don't have a PS3 anymore a cheap PSTV for less than $40 will get you your purchases back for the most part and you can play some Vita games.
For the tflop ratings for 4k he's simply multiplying the standard consoles by four.
Every Neo game is going to be a PS4 game & every Scorpio game is going to be a Xbox One game.
For Neo to run a game that is 1080 on PS4 at 4K it would take over 7.5TF so unless they plan to have a GPU with over 7.5TF there is no need of trying to react to Scorpio being 6TF & just stick to using uprendering & cheaper rendering tricks to get the PS4 games to 4K.
This logic would work far better if XB1 games were reliably 1080p.
family_guy
Member
Well it's not like every PS4 game uses all the system's power. Very little do. I don't doubt there will be native 4k games on Neo.
LordOfChaos
Member
But it mostly sticks around 900p.
And FP16 is used on mobile a lot because you also have smaller screens, I'm not so sure you could simply plunk half precision onto a HDTV and have things not look odd.
But these will be new games so they can go for 1080 on Xbox One & 4K on Xbox Scorpio in some cases.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
What I am asking you, is why does it take less TF for the Xbox One's 1080p to 4K versus the PS4? That is where you lost me.
That simply relies in them restraining themselves graphically to make that possible, which hasn't been a common option, else wed have more 1080p XB1 games. Which would work sufficient for PlayStation games too.
This is especially true of multiplat games.
anothertech
Member
Ya, It was pretty blatant that's probably how it will go down. Announce it in October. "And it's available now" to the mad rush of fans.
Will be interesting to see how it pans out.
We already store a lot of data in FP16 or lesser formats, why would it be bad to compute some of those tasks in less precision in cases where it's not needed?
IE.
Local hair, particle or fluid simulations, SSAO, game of life.
FP16 and FP32 can be mixed in code, there is no different modes for them, they most likely use same ALUs. (Although I'm pretty sure it's unwise to throw value back and forth between them.)
Ps4 mode still uses the new hardware, even though there seems to be limitations on what instructions etc. can be used. (Really hope the better compression and primitive discard acceleration is on both cases as they do not affect image quality and should be invisible to the code.)
They don't but PS4 is the main platform so I don't think they would want to limit the PS4 games to using less of the PS4 power just so they can have the same game in 4K on PS Neo.
On the same size TV 4K pixels will be 1/4 the size of a 1080P pixel so the 4K pixels don't need to have as much detail in them as a pixel from a 1080P game. it's probably going to be hard to tell the difference between pixels made using FP32 & FP16 at 4K resolutions.
In the paper they say they would rather davs use checkerboard rendering at 4K than to have a normal 1440P game because a 1440P game on a 4K TV don't look much different from a 1080P game on a 1080P TV.
4K cheap pixels will look better than 1440P high quality pixels on a 4K TV. it's a middle ground it's not going to look as good as 4K without the tricks but it's going to look better than the next best thing.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Old, and according to a thread on reddit its for PSVR
Thanks
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
quote was edited.
Because if they got a Xbox One game at 1080P the optimizing has already been done so getting that game to 4K will need less than what would be needed to get a 1080P PS4 game to 4K.
So with Xbox One to Scorpio they will use 4.5X the power to take 900p/1080P Xbox One games to 4K Xbox Scorpio games while PS4 to PS4 Neo will use 2.3X the power & half the workload to take 1080P PS4 games to 4K.
KojiKnight
Member
Having a 4K capable PC tied to my 4K TV, I can tell you that even 2.5k is a huge upgrade over 1080p, and I'll be happy if devs target that.
In fact, on my 50inch TV from the distance I play at, I see a much larger difference between 1080p (2 million pixels) to 2.5k (3.7 million pixels) than I do 2.5k to 4k (8 million pixels).
Now that's obviously diminishing returns simply on the size of my TV, people with 60+ inch screens will notice a lot more... but for me personally (and for the foreseeable future) if devs can nail 2.5k at 60 or 30 STABLE I'll be more than happy.
In fact, on my 50inch TV from the distance I play at, I see a much larger difference between 1080p (2 million pixels) to 2.5k (3.7 million pixels) than I do 2.5k to 4k (8 million pixels).
Now that's obviously diminishing returns simply on the size of my TV, people with 60+ inch screens will notice a lot more... but for me personally (and for the foreseeable future) if devs can nail 2.5k at 60 or 30 STABLE I'll be more than happy.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You still lost me on this... you are assuming that 1080p on the PS4 is pushing the PS4 so hard it will need 7.5TF or more to reach 4K... but 1080p on the Xbox One is optimized where it does not need as much TF for 4K?
What if the 1080p on the PS4 still has a good 30% leg room or more of untapped power, and they just did 'enough' like a lot of devs have been guilty of early on with 'parity' talks and the like. There is a lot of unknowns in these assumptions.
Or am I misunderstanding still?
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
The thirst hasn't been quenched.
mitchman
Gold Member
Bandwidth compression will help a fair bit to reduce the bandwidth requirements.
This isn't about a few games so if Sony was to go the route of Xbox Scorpio they would need around 7.5TF.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I still do not understand why, but ok, lol.
Hypothetically if they did the same 6TF, they would have the same looking/performing games as Scorpio in 4K, with their lesser console still being a little more in performance/effects than MSFT's lesser console. Engines are usually built to scale now.
Unless you are referring to strictly 'brute forcing', which I still do not see happening too often with engine scaling and optimizations on the closed platforms.
Didn't think so.
That was my thought process.
This is not accurate.
anothertech
Member
They are both x86 tech, with AMD Apu's, they will look and act the same with the same floating point count. I am fairly certain Your doing it wrong sir.
bitbydeath
Member
If Xbox needs 4.5x the power and PS4 needs 2.3x the power then shouldn't Xbox need more TF to reach the greaterX number?
(Still not sure where these numbers are coming from though)
Brown_Corolla
Member
I'd like to see NEO = PS4 slim
Sony releases the Neo, and just sells through on all the old models.
Sony releases the Neo, and just sells through on all the old models.
Would Sony be able to get PS4 games to run the same at 4K on a console with 6TF using the same rendering technique on both consoles like Microsoft should be able to do going from Xbox One to Scorpio?
I'm saying that MS was able to reach the goal of 4X the power of Xbox One with a console that's over 5TF but for Sony to do the same they would need over 7.5TF which isn't a easy goal so they are using 2X the power with cheaper rendering tricks to get PS4 games to 4K.
Napalm_Frank
Member
I wonder which is revealed first, NX or Neo.
You are assuming that every game uses the maximum amount of system recources it possibly could.
Stop with this line of thinking, it's completely wrong.
Man..you really should not be here posting like this. You sound a lot like mrxmedia. Only a PS version of it.
I know that's not the case but if Sony was building a console that they wanted to be able to run games that are 1080P on PS4 & 4K on Neo using the same rendering technique & without cutting effects & so on they would have to make that console 4X the power of PS4 if they wanted to keep a standard in place.
Hey Matt, was just wondering if you knew if there was any chance that we'll have games fully supporting HDR. It's a bigger deal to me than 4K.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
They already said Neo is not meant to replace the current PS4.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
No he does not. That dude made up asinine claims of 'secret sauce' (hmm, where else did we hear that from?) and hidden 'stacked' GPU's, with MSFT intentionally holding the system back to later 'pounce'.
This is more of a misunderstanding at how games are rendered on each box. Not a fair comparison in onQ's defense.
Again, they are both x86/64 with 1st/3rd party engines built to scale. Things will be adjusted accordingly to the power of the closed systems and developer needs/wants/vision.