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[Mammoth Jones]

I must admit, I'm not 100% sure of the reasons (mostly historical I'd guess?) Of why changing your skin colour when dressing up for cos play etc is racist and struggle to answer very coherently when people ask me "whys it different to putting on a blonde wig" etc.

But I know it's just something you shouldn't do.

And there you go. That's really all there is.

Just trust us on this.

 

[Messofanego]

Honest question for non-USA GAF: is blackface a thing in your countries? I´ve never heard of it in Spain, but Spain has a low color population.

Looking at this from outside it seems to me like it´s a sensible topic in USA but may not be in other countries. Yet people are being called racists by others who can´t understand that every place has their own history where this problem may not exist and not everyone may be aware of USA´s own history or be bothered by it.

Excuse me if that sounded rude, not my intention really.

You're ignorant about blackface's history in Spain and other European countries and how it's been protested against. Why are you so scared of being correctly labeled as having done or defended a racist practice? No matter where you are, it's racist and a sensible topic. Thailand, Venezuela, South Korea, Japan, etc.

http://www.black-face.com/blackface-world.htm

Zwarte Piet

Netherlands -- St Nicholas Day is celebrated in the Netherlands on December 5, with the arrival of Santa Claus (Sinterklaas), and his helper 'Zwarte Piet' or Black Pete. Together with Sinterklaas, Zwarte Piet helps deliver holiday gifts and sweets to those children who have been good. If you've been bad, the legend says that Black Pete will kidnap you in his sack and take you back to Spain. The Zwarte Piet character made his debut as an African servant in an 1850 book and is an important part of most public Christmas celebrations in the Netherlands.​

Balthazar

Spain -- Traditionally the three Wise Men or the Three Kings gave out gifts on January 6. Spaniards paint their faces black in order to ‘realistically’ portray Balthazar in parades and in church festivals. The Pan African Center, based in Madrid, has just launched a unique campaign to end the practice of having white men paint their faces black ("in a ridiculous and unnecessary parody") and instead have actual black men portray Balthazar.​

Germany -- In Germany it is common practice for black roles to be portrayed by whites in blackface. American playwright Bruce Norris wrote a letter to the American Dramatists Guild after canceling German rights to his play ‘Clybourne Park’ because the producers intended to cast white actors and put them in blackface. Norris wrote, "...blackface has been and continues to be a widespread practice on the German stage. German actors of African descent are routinely passed over for roles explicitly designated for them in some of the largest theatres in the country. This is weakly defended as either a director’s prerogative or a matter of “artistic choice” – and yet, when questioned, no one could offer me an equivalent example of a white German actor having lost a role to a black actor in whiteface."​

Three Wise Men

Germany - Austria -- Children in Germany and Austria go door to door pretending to be the Wise Men celebrating the birth of Jesus. They sing and ask for donations for charity while wearing costumes. One child wears blackface because it is believed that one of the wise men was from Africa.​

Blackface for UNICEF

Germany -- In 2007, advertising agency Jung von Matt/Alster did a pro bono ad campaign for UNICEF Germany about the education crisis in Africa. The campaign used white kids in blackface to represent “uneducated Africans.” UNICEF dropped the campaign after they received numerous complaints and condemnation.​

 

[Zaph]

what the fuck unicef

 

[Romez]

England this is really weird history with black face. It seems completely fucking bat shit insane to me here in the states. I've never seen anything even close to that here.

This has to be a joke post right?

 

[Llyranor]

This reminds me of the Asian racism thread where people going "it's not racism, it's..er...xenophobia/nationalism!" despite Asians calling it racist.

For certain European countries, it might be tradition, tradition can still be racist.

As for 'no racist connotation', you don't see black people painting their faces white when dressed as a white character, do you?

This is racist.

 

[Inferno313]

This reminds me of the Asian racism thread where people going "it's not racism, it's..er...xenophobia/nationalism!" despite Asians calling it racist.

For certain European countries, it might be tradition, tradition can still be racist.

As for 'no racist connotation', you don't see black people painting their faces white when dressed as a white character, do you?

This is racist.

in b4 someone trots out white girls again.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

in b4 someone trots out white girls again.

 

[Zakalwe]

It's racist.

White Girls really being used as a defence?

I shouldn't be surprised, but I always am a little.

 

[correojon]

You're ignorant about blackface's history in Spain and other European countries and how it's been protested against. Why are you so scared of being correctly labeled as having done or defended a racist practice? No matter where you are, it's racist and a sensible topic. Thailand, Venezuela, South Korea, Japan, etc.

Balthazar

Spain -- Traditionally the three Wise Men or the Three Kings gave out gifts on January 6. Spaniards paint their faces black in order to ‘realistically’ portray Balthazar in parades and in church festivals. The Pan African Center, based in Madrid, has just launched a unique campaign to end the practice of having white men paint their faces black ("in a ridiculous and unnecessary parody") and instead have actual black men portray Balthazar.​

First of all, calm down, I was asking honest questions and even apologized in advance if anything I said could be understood as rude. The best way to make your point is not to act in disdain and go through loops to indirectly call me a racist. I was asking opinions from people outside of USA because prior to asking my questions, I looked into blackfacing and all I could find was information regarding the US or UK and the reasons being given for it to be a bad thing were directly related to those countries history, so they shouldn´t be aplicable to other countries. For example, take into account that there are records of "Los Reyes Magos" from before the 5th century, long before blakfacing was a thing in USA (USA didn´t even exist).

The portrayal of Baltasar doesn´t fit the usual complaints behind blackfacing, it´s a very old tradition from where black presence in Spain was nothing but anecdotical (so in most places there weren´t black people to play the character) and it portrays a Magician King. It is a respected figure and everyone goes out to welcome him every year when he and the other 2 Kings make a parade in all cities and towns in Spain. If people feel offended by it I see no problem on a black dude playing the role in the parades, provided he puts as much effort and time into setting it up as the people who organize it usually do, as in small towns or even neighborhoods it´s done by volunteers. I think this is a better alternative than having no Baltasar if you can´t find a worthy candidate. All this is done for the children so I think it would be better to have them cheering on the 3 kings regardless the color of their skin or if it´s painted or not, rather than explaining to a 3 year old that Baltasar didn´t come to his city because...what would you tell him?

 

[LucidMomentum]

All this is done for the children so I think it would be better to have them cheering on the 3 kings regardless the color of their skin or if it´s painted or not, rather than explaining to a 3 year old that Baltasar didn´t come to his city because...what would you tell him?

This post has it all, tone policing, "just asking questions", "it's not negative racism so it's not that bad", and "it's for the kids!" SMH.

Balthazar does not have to be black. Nor does he have to be portrayed by blackface. Upholding a racist caricature, even if portrayed positively in some situations, just to entertain children is not a good argument.

"Honey the kids love watching the negros dance and sing! But we have no negroes nearby, let's paint our faces black and pretend to be like them!"

Surely blackface is better than no face, even though the children probably enjoy the festivities because it's a party and not because there's blackface involved.

S
M
H

Also why the FUCK are these threads always this carousel of backwards logic? Does y'all really want to keep blackface because it's a shitty tradition?

 

[Llyranor]

If the celebration is that important, is it that hard to hire a black guy to play the role, instead of making a caricature out of the whole thing?

If not, is it such a big deal that Balthazar HAS to have his face painted "for the children"? That is how racist traditions are passed, by downplaying its offensiveness from a young age. A child is not going to care if paint is not used if you explain it.

And don't limit the 'history' to the US or UK, Spain had its role to play in the Atlantic Slave Trade.

 

[lightskintwin]

This post has it all, tone policing, "just asking questions", "it's not negative racism so it's not that bad", and "it's for the kids!" SMH.

Balthazar does not have to be black. Nor does he have to be portrayed by blackface. Upholding a racist caricature, even if portrayed positively in some situations, just to entertain children is not a good argument.

"Honey the kids love watching the negros dance and sing! But we have no negroes nearby, let's paint our faces black and pretend to be like them!"

Surely blackface is better than no face, even though the children probably enjoy the festivities because it's a party and not because there's blackface involved.

S
M
H

Also why the FUCK are these threads always this carousel of backwards logic? Does y'all really want to keep blackface because it's a shitty tradition?

Amazing ain't it. How people would rather hold onto and defend lame traditions, rather than actually learn from the world and treat other people with respect and dignity.

 

[Zakalwe]

If the celebration is that important, is it that hard to hire a black guy to play the role, instead of making a caricature out of the whole thing?

If not, is it such a big deal that Balthazar HAS to have his face painted "for the children"? That is how racist traditions are passed, by downplaying its offensiveness from a young age. A child is not going to care if paint is not used if you explain it.

And don't limit the 'history' to the US or UK, Spain had its role to play in the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Too often "it's tradition!" is used to defend archaic and harmful practise.

Just because it's been practised for years, doesn't make it invulnerable to criticism.

 

[travisbickle]

Honest question for non-USA GAF: is blackface a thing in your countries? I´ve never heard of it in Spain, but Spain has a low color population.

Looking at this from outside it seems to me like it´s a sensible topic in USA but may not be in other countries. Yet people are being called racists by others who can´t understand that every place has their own history where this problem may not exist and not everyone may be aware of USA´s own history or be bothered by it.

Excuse me if that sounded rude, not my intention really.

For not knowing about blackface, Spain are pretty good at it:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/richard-herring/2008/11/hamilton-black-racists-spanish

 

[Earthpainting]

in b4 someone trots out white girls again.

White Girls may have been a turd of a movie, but at least it has the self-awareness of doing it on purpose, and was not making excuses for using racism as a form of comedy. It was also used the set-up of a story arc where the main characters go from seeing white girls as "all the same", to learning how to relate to them. Every time some schmuck plasters Nutella over his face for Halloween and calls himself Kanye, you can be sure they'll be too busy making excuses to acknowledge what they're quite deliberately doing.

People can ultimately do whatever they want, but they are responsible for their actions. If you want to make racism the subject of a joke, you should be prepared that you might lose people's respect if your attempts miss the mark. Avoiding to "punch down" is generally sensible too, since punching down in comedy can be hard to distinguish from casual discrimination.

I think this is a better alternative than having no Baltasar if you can´t find a worthy candidate. All this is done for the children so I think it would be better to have them cheering on the 3 kings regardless the color of their skin or if it´s painted or not, rather than explaining to a 3 year old that Baltasar didn´t come to his city because...what would you tell him?

Honestly, kids don't know what the designs are supposed to be, and I doubt they'd care too much either way. Just let kids be a white Baltasar, and they won't bat an eye. The reason why adults feel strongly about it is because they grew up with it. It's a part of their childhood, and they don't want to have their memories tainted. It might suck to be confronted with the fact that you have been unknowingly disrespectful in the past, but I doubt many people would hold stuff you did as a kid against you.

 

[Onemic]

I find it pretty funny that those saying that color of a character is central to cosplay dont say anything when 99% of white dudes/gals who dress up as anime characters dont paint their faces yellow to match the color of the character. In fact, I find that matching the color of your character in the vast majority of cases only applies to black characters.

 

[St Aeonthony]

I don't undestand how saying 'You're well spoken' to a black person is most likely racist. If I said that and someone assumed I meant 'compared to other black people', then that's a problem with them being too sensitive and less of a problem with me being racist.

Would you say it to any other ethnic group? No? Then stop.

The second part of the sentence isn't '...compared to other black people' it's '...for a black person'

 

[Llyranor]

I find it pretty funny that those saying that color of a character is central to cosplay dont say anything when 99% of white dudes/gals who dress up as anime characters dont paint their faces yellow to match the color of the character. In fact, I find that matching the color of your character in the vast majority of cases only applies to black characters.

There was a thread on GAF where people were denying that anime characters were for the most part Japanese, because they didn't have enough Mongoloid facial exaggerated characteristics or something

Would you say it to any other ethnic group? No? Then stop.

The second part of the sentence isn't '...compared to other black people' it's '...for a black person'

I've had it said to me (as an Asian). Yeah, it's racist

 

[Maaaaaardy]

Of course it isn't. They "blacked up", aka put black make up on.

"Local men dress up as n*****s" is racist. Massive difference. I can understand people being upset though, but it's not really racist.

 

[bchamba]

Of course it isn't. They "blacked up", aka put black make up on.

"Local men dress up as n*****s" is racist. Massive difference. I can understand people being upset though, but it's not really racist.

Damn 17 pages in and nobody has made this argument. Wish you were here on page 1 we could have saved a whole lot of discussion

 

[Onemic]

Of course it isn't. They "blacked up", aka put black make up on.

"Local men dress up as n*****s" is racist. Massive difference. I can understand people being upset though, but it's not really racist.

...This is a joke right?

EDIT: So it is a joke

 

[Llyranor]

It's satire, guys. Or maybe it's Poe's Law

 

[Loudninja]

It's satire, guys. Or maybe it's Poe's Law

Cant tell because its being posted in this topic many times already in a different way.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Why did they put black make up on?

 

[lightskintwin]

I find it pretty funny that those saying that color of a character is central to cosplay dont say anything when 99% of white dudes/gals who dress up as anime characters dont paint their faces yellow to match the color of the character. In fact, I find that matching the color of your character in the vast majority of cases only applies to black characters.

The history of blackface and cultural appropriation of African American culture go hand in hand on a worldwide scale. Now it's just evolved to blackface without the blackface. People who are still using blackface are sooooooo passe'.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/foster/sfeature/sf_minstrelsy_10.html

As music historian Ken Emerson puts it.

I began my career as a rock journalist and critic. And from the beginning of my interest in rock and roll, I was fascinated by the question of, "When did it first become cool for white teenagers to pretend they were black?" Obviously, from Elvis Presley to Beck that has been one of the primary impulses behind rock and roll. But it goes back a lot further than Beck's imitating a rap star, saying, "I got two turntables and a microphone," or Elvis Presley singing, "That's All Right, Mama" in emulation of Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup. It goes back beyond the jazz performers, musicians such as Benny Goodman and the nice Jewish boys from the housing projects of Austin Hill in Chicago. It goes back before the turn of the century when immigrant songwriters such as George Gershwin and Irving Berlin fell in love with black culture. And it goes all the way back to blackface and minstrelsy before the Civil War. And so in a way rock and roll led me to a long, tortuous path to Stephen Foster because that's where really this interplay and intermix of black and white culture that so defines American music to this day really began.

Think of, for instance, and this is not restricted to America any more since rock and roll is an international language, but think of Mick Jagger performing almost as if he were a minstrel performer, the sort of extravagant mimicking and caricaturing of black mannerisms that many people do in rock and roll. Think for instance of "I Heard It Through the Grapevine," when Marvin Gaye and Gladys Knight and the Pips sang the original versions of the song. They sang "I heard it through the grapevine." Then when a white boy did it, John Fogerty in Creedence Clearwater, he sang, "I hoid it through the grapevine," almost as if he was going to exaggerate the black characteristics. That's pure minstrelsy right there. And of course that was the minstrelsy, that's what was happening and the sort of the exaggerated caricatured stereotypical black dialect of minstrel songs in the 1830s and 1840s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation#African-American_culture

The phenomenon of white people adopting stereotypical black mannerisms, speech, and apparel has appeared in several generations since slavery was abolished in the Western world. The concept has been documented in the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, and other white-majority countries. An early form of this was the white negro in the jazz and swing music scenes of the 1920s and 1930s, as examined in the 1957 Norman Mailer essay "The White Negro". It was later seen in the zoot suiter of the 1930s and 1940s, the hipster of the 1940s, the beatnik of the 1950s–1960s, the blue-eyed soul of the 1970s, and the hip hop of the 1980s and 1990s. In 1993, an article in the UK newspaper The Independent described the phenomenon of white, middle-class kids who were "wannabe Blacks".[76] 2005 saw the publication of Why White Kids Love Hip Hop: Wangstas, Wiggers, Wannabes, and the New Reality of Race in America by Bakari Kitwana, "a culture critic who's been tracking American hip hop for years"

A recent documentary called Blacking Up: Hip-Hop's Remix of Race and Identity shows how the legacy of Blackface Minstrel Shows lives on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF-peyRuvA

Here's a clip from the documentary with a compilation of Paul Mooney clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV7ilFcozHs

For anybody interested, here's the full documentary.
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v432018717yDx32sc

 

[televator]

It's not racist to parody an oppressed group of people. I learned this on NeoGAF about brown face, from other brown people.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The history of blackface and cultural appropriation of African American culture go hand in hand on a worldwide scale. Now it's just evolved to blackface without the blackface. People who are still using blackface are sooooooo passe'.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/foster/sfeature/sf_minstrelsy_10.html

As music historian Ken Emerson puts it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation#African-American_culture



A recent documentary called Blacking Up: Hip-Hop's Remix of Race and Identity shows how the legacy of Blackface Minstrel Shows lives on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF-peyRuvA

Here's a clip from the documentary with a compilation of Paul Mooney clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV7ilFcozHs

For anybody interested, here's the full documentary.
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v432018717yDx32sc

Great information but I fear anyone that needs to learn this will roll their eyes in contempt before actually being willing to humble themselves and learn the history.

It still blows my mind people don't know this shit. Should be taught in school.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Why did they put black make up on?

So they could get deeper into character.

Nothing says "I'm doing this for the art and authenticity" better than looking like a clown.

 

[Bananajama]

Would you say it to any other ethnic group? No? Then stop.

The second part of the sentence isn't '...compared to other black people' it's '...for a black person'

Speaking in the area I'm from.

I'd talk to them normally. (Whatever the ethnicity)

All the while thinking Posh twat (whatever the ethnicity)

But would never verbalise it (whatever the ethnicity)

 

[Two Words]

How would you feel if a white guy wore a "Big Momma's House outfit? Let's say it's the same kind of thing actually used in the movie. As a black guy, this kind of blackface doesn't bug me because it actually looks real. All of these blackface pictures shown here are offensive to me because they're lazy caricatures of black people and resemble the same blackface used decades ago.

 

[FormallyMegadrive]

Oh god, the ignorance is just bursting out of you on this one. Look, as a black guy, I have had a lot of people tell me how "well spoken" I am. Guess what, I'm not that well spoken in the grand scheme of things. I guarantee that when a white person speaks similarly to me, people are not motivated to let that white person know how well spoken they are. The reason why black people who speak like myself are "complimented" for being well spoken is because those people have a lower expectation on how black people speak. So to them, they had a lower standard in mind for me that I apparently crushed. So they think I'm a relatively amazing speaker just because they treat the expectations of black people lower than white people. This is gross. For crying out loud, DO NOT compliment a black person for "speaking well" just because they speak like you expect people to speak.

Apologies for being ignorant. I am mostly ignorant of the issues in the States. I had a History class back when I was 17 (I'm 27 now) on black issues with MLK and Malcolm X, and I don't remember very much. All I was trying to say is that I personally would say the exact same thing to a white, asian, whatever kid if they spoke well. If you speak like a normal human being, why would I comment?

It's a phenomenon that occurs with Blacks. It's the implication that they're surprised and have to comment on it, because you've defied their expectations of what they thought you'd speak like. When in reality they merely haven't been exposed to Educated Black people.

I've had several white coworkers say this to me over the years.

This is a really easy to understand way of explaining it, thanks.

 

[lightskintwin]

Great information but I fear anyone that needs to learn this will roll their eyes in contempt before actually being willing to humble themselves and learn the history.

It still blows my mind people don't know this shit. Should be taught in school.

It will never be taught in schools, we live in a white dominated country that was founded on white supremacy. They curate and shape the narratives of what and how history is taught. How can they reconcile a culture which they believe (either consciously and explicit, or subconscious and implicit) to be superior, civilized, and enlightened to have been heavily influenced by and/or created by an "inferior, barbaric, and animalistic culture" that they have enslaved, raped, murdered, beaten, brutalized, criminalized, exploited, and pillaged and plundered their culture for economic gain.

Only specialized studies that revolve around African American History, Social and Music Historians, and Ethnomusicology would teach about it on a college level.

 

[mckmas8808]

And there you go. That's really all there is.

Just trust us on this.

And there's a big difference between painting one's face and putting on a wig.

 

[Izuna]

cosplay without skin-colour changing