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A polite discourse amongst friends on the importance of MP-elements in No Man's Sky

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Russ T

Banned
Okay, but does that excuse them for lying about it?

Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

This is why you people screaming "lie" over and over again is so absurd. I hope you're going to start doing that with literally every developer who changes their plans without filling you in at all times to at least be consistent.
 
You're defending the quote in question by handwaving "but algorithm!", as if that leaves for the chance that he's maybe not completely lying since we don't know the algorithm. Algorithms aren't these magical black boxes that make the impossible happen. Unless their algorithm created new elements, simulated their reaction to space particles and reaction to other chemicals in the atmosphere, then he lied.

Exactly. Sky colours have a very indirect relationship to elemental properties. It's like the old physicists joke recipe for Apple Pie, "First, you need to create the universe..."

It's like the Burnout devs claiming they needed to create a whole new periodic table so their nitrous boost could work the way it does.
Or that FIFA/Madden devs needed to create a whole new periodic table to model the surface properties for ball spin physics.

It's utterly ridiculous.
 

Two Words

Member
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

This is why you people screaming "lie" over and over again is so absurd. I hope you're going to start doing that with literally every developer who changes their plans without filling you in at all times to at least be consistent.

I am absolutely certain that at no point did they ever have a build that did real-time physics simulations to determine the light refracting color of an elemental atmosphere.
 

Ultrabum

Member
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

This is why you people screaming "lie" over and over again is so absurd. I hope you're going to start doing that with literally every developer who changes their plans without filling you in at all times to at least be consistent.

It was never Newtonian physics, please see my post above. They lied at the time that they wrote that quote.
 

Two Words

Member
Exactly. Sky colours have a very indirect relationship to elemental properties. It's like the old physicists joke recipe for Apple Pie, "First, you need to create the universe..."

It's like the Burnout devs claiming they needed to create a whole new periodic table so their nitrous boost could work the way it does.
Or that FIFA/Madden devs needed to create a whole new periodic table to model the surface properties for ball spin physics.

It's utterly ridiculous.

What they could have easily done is made a star system procedurally create the elemental environment of the system, which dictates the elemental environments of planets, and elemental environments are assigned different colors. And maybe the way they collect is dependent on how far they are from the star or each other. All of that is fine, but they overly romanticized it.
 

Russ T

Banned
It was never Newtonian physics, please see my post above. They lied at the time that they wrote that quote.
Wait what? Where's your proof? I'll absolutely believe you if you have proof, but... Also your post wss about sky colors.

What they could have easily done is made a star system procedurally create the elemental environment of the system, which dictates the elemental environments of planets, and elemental environments are assigned different colors. And maybe the way they collect is dependent on how far they are from the star or each other. All of that is fine, but they overly romanticized it.

Nothing you said there actually disagrees with that quote that everyone's arguing about.
 

Uthred

Member
Then... stay on your middle ground? I don't understand how you turned my post into an attack on you? What, btw is your middle ground and where do you think I am and why?

Look, as far as I am aware, there are those that want answers and then those that don't care. What else is there? I was just asking if you don't care then please respect those that do. Which you failed admirably at.

This is hilarious, well done
 

Kaisos

Member
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

If they advertised the game as having a thing, and the final game does not contain that thing, then they lied, yes. It's very simple.
 
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

This is why you people screaming "lie" over and over again is so absurd. I hope you're going to start doing that with literally every developer who changes their plans without filling you in at all times to at least be consistent.

The amount of people saying they lied has grown exponentially with the amount of time they have remained silent. Go figure.

I for one came into this hoping to give them a chance to clear the air either way before launch. I never called them a liar and I still don't think I have. What most people want is clarity. But that is going to change drastically the longer they stay silent. This isn't a minority opinion either. This sentiment is shared by groups of consumers across almost all major gaming sites and media. Even some youtube channels that have spoken out about the matter have received tens of thousands of likes.

And it all could have been so easily avoided. A whole lot of the damage still could be mitigated even now. But they threw the get out of jail card in the trash so to speak.
 

Russ T

Banned
If they advertised the game as having a thing, and the final game does not contain that thing, then they lied, yes. It's very simple.

You're responding to a conversation that's more than one post long. Please re-read to find your response doesn't make sense!
 

Ultrabum

Member
Wait what? Where's your proof? I'll absolutely believe you if you have proof, but... Also your post wss about sky colors.



Nothing you said there actually disagrees with that quote that everyone's arguing about.

Thats good. I'm glad you brought up that you don't know for sure.

It turns out I am pretty good with optics because of my day job. I deal with microscopes and do a lot of work trying to take very high quality images of cells at specific wavelengths. One of the problems we face is light scattering, particularly Raman scattering.

Because of dealing with this I am also very familiar with Rayleigh scattering, which as it turns out is responsible for the color of the sky on Earth.

In fact, refraction of any light will result in the spreading out of all the wavelengths within that light. Refraction is responsible for rainbows .

It is impossible for refraction parameters of an element to make a sky green, because this would require all of the light being refracted to already be green, in which case you would not see the sky, just the star or light source creating the green light.

This is separate from diffraction , which also has nothing to do with the color of the sky and would result mostly in colors the same as the source of the light or spreading the light into all the colors of the spectrum like refraction. This is most frequently seen in soap bubbles which are very colorful due the interference of all the spread out wavelengths of light.

For the same reasons as with refraction, diffraction cannot make a sky green.

So, what I am saying is technically that quote is a lie, and that there is probably no advanced periodic table of elements or light physics being simulated and instead it is just a value in a spreadsheet that corresponds to green (probably 255 RGB style colors).


gRk1uZm.gif


But you are right in that I cannot know for sure that they did not invent their own rules of physics governing their system and instead simulated that with very advanced set of new equations and fictional periodic elements with different diffraction values.


It emphasizes the point that they built up the game to have these complex systems, which in reality do not exist (at least not in the color of the sky).

As a side note, I still think the game is great and probably worth $60 to many many people. I really loved fable too, but there's no question as to how much was lied about in marketing to try and sell the game.

What's really damning is these bits in interviews where they start talking about the game as though it's using real-life physics, like having to "redesign atmospheric particles".

346d573fec.PNG


Like, what the hell? That's not how games work. Why did no one call them out on this months ago?
The proof is in all the linked wiki articles describing Newtonian physics lol.

He said "When he desired the possibility of green skies, the team had to redesign the periodic table to create atmospheric particles that would diffract light at just the right wavelength"

This is made up. They never simulated Newtonian physics to create sky color.
 

Kaisos

Member
You're responding to a conversation that's more than one post long. Please re-read to find your response doesn't make sense!

What in the world is wrong with you? They deliberately misrepresented the game they were going to sell as a product. They lied.
 

Russ T

Banned
The proof is in all the linked wiki articles describing Newtonian physics lol.

He said "When he desired the possibility of green skies, the team had to redesign the periodic table to create atmospheric particles that would diffract light at just the right wavelength"

This is made up. They never simulated Newtonian physics to create sky color.

Yo my dude, the disconnect is here:

When that other guy is talking about Newtonian physics, I assume he's talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics. I assume this because he lists it as a separate issue from light refraction.

To be clear, that is the planets rotating around the stars!

Sure. Actually explain something for once.

Good lord you are a piece of work! I've explained all of my points as clearly as I can right now. In this case, it was apparently a disconnect on what we were talking about. See above.

Now, dude. You've been trolling me non stop done I entered this thread. Can you stop NOW? I'm legitimately trying to have conversations with people, but you keep interrupting with false accusations and insults. I get it, you're hilarious. Okay? You won! You got me! Please, please stop.
 

MikeyB

Member
I did like the game on PS4, until it started crashing on me.

They lied through their teeth about the game. It is unforgivable.

Personally, this is putting the final nails in my interest in "immersive" games. I will keep playing the occasional shooter, like Overwatch and Metro, but thos are diversions for me, not big worlds like NMS or Witcher 3.

That used to be my favorite genre, but it has been years of broken promises across ,multiple titles and generations. Ultimately, I am also finding the experience of these games empty. The progression systems, the shallow stories, the scenery that I find myself sprinting through to get to the gameplay.

Hello Games has made me say goodbye. I'm going casual.
 

Dubz

Member
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.

This is why you people screaming "lie" over and over again is so absurd. I hope you're going to start doing that with literally every developer who changes their plans without filling you in at all times to at least be consistent.
You're probably right to assume that they took out certain things due to hardware limitations. The problem people are having is that they never explicitly told anyone that a lot of features were being taken out. People had to find out after their $60 was gone.
 
What's really damning is these bits in interviews where they start talking about the game as though it's using real-life physics, like having to "redesign atmospheric particles".

346d573fec.PNG


Like, what the hell? That's not how games work. Why did no one call them out on this months ago?

Actually , there is nothing wrong with that quote , they made a world with rules that doesn't follow the ones we use , that why some thing happens within the game. Some planets are indeed way to close to each other and it couldn't happen IRL ( because each planet has a mass and a gravitationnal pull in normal life ).
Those things that happen IRL aren't used in NMS because they simplified the gameplay to allow Sci-fi looking planets.

The game has is own sci-fi like periodic table too , just like the quote and they build upgrades and ressources around it.

That's EXACTLy how games work , many things are simplifed to allow gameplay to happen... in EVERY GAME.
 

Whales

Banned
Do you have proof the game at one point didn't have those things? Maybe the Newtonian physics was too much for performance, so they ended up taking it out. Not really a lie, just a change of plans.
.

??????

Does the game contain newtonian physics?
no?
then they lied

simple as that. It's not in the game
 

Klyka

Banned
Actually , there is nothing wrong with that quote , the made a world with rules that doesn't follow the ones we use , that why some thing happens within the game. Some planets are indeed way to close to each other and it couldn't happen IRl ( because each planet has a mass and a gravitationnal pull ).
Those things that happen IRL aren't used in NMS because they simplified the gameplay to allow Sci-fi looking planets.

The game has is own sci-fi like periodic table too , just like the quote and they build upgrades and ressources around it.

That's EXACTLy how games work , many things are simplifed to allow gameplay to happen... in EVERY GAME

giphy.gif
 

Two Words

Member
Good lord you are a piece of work! I've explained all of my points as clearly as I can right now. In this case, it was apparently a disconnect on what we were talking about. See above.

Now, dude. You've been trolling me non stop done I entered this thread. Can you stop NOW? I'm legitimately trying to have conversations with people, but you keep interrupting with false accusations and insults. I get it, you're hilarious. Okay? You won! You got me! Please, please stop.

Ahh, so you didn't explain. even when you asked if you should explain.
 

Russ T

Banned
??????

Does the game contain newtonian physics?
no?
then they lied

simple as that. It's not in the game
Did the game ever contain said physics? You can't possibly know. You literally can't unless you dig through all their previous builds.

Ahh, so you didn't explain. even when you asked if you should explain.

Hahaha "it was a disconnect" hahahahaha

You're going on the ignore list, asshole.
 

Whales

Banned
Did the game ever contain said physics? You can't possibly know. You literally can't unless you dig through all their previous builds.

does the game you're playing now contains such physics? are you able to play with newtonian physics?

no? then why did he say so? it isn't in the game. it's not true, it's a lie. How can you even defend that? your logic makes no sense at all
 

Audioboxer

Member
It's just baffling how so many people can be on the opposite side of the consumers.

I see it every day though in my community work. Even though I know it's normal for people to be ok with being "pooped" on from on high when it comes to money it's still sad for me to see it whenever it happens.

I was talking to a fellow city council member the other day and he was telling me how he quit as soon as he figured out that the system was corrupt because it's set up totally in favor of the rich vs the poor and they get away with it because people are just so conditioned to lay back and take it because they legitimately can't imagine being able to change things and make them better. There just isn't a way provided to them to do so.

I mean, they tried so hard to get people to come to the city council meetings but no one would ever show. At one point they even raised local taxes by an absurd amount and no one even called in. The only thing that worked was coincidentally the day he got up and quit out of disgust. They made it a city ordinance that if you walked your dog it had to have a leash... The entire courthouse was packed all the way outside down the sidewalk and to the corner of the block with people complaining...

It's very sad that people can't see how it would be a good thing for not only the industry but also Hello Games if they where to set a precedent for being open and honest with their consumers. The sad part is that yeah, even if they did come out now people would still be upset and rightfully so because Hello Games just sat back and racked in the dough in a lot of peoples eyes when they could have cleared up the issue for the most part with a simple statement. The gaming media are giving the gamers a chance here to make a positive impact with our voices but our voices need to be loud in order to be heard. The media had given HG a chance to get out of jail free so to speak by reaching out to them about the issue in the hopes that they would give a statement that would clear this all up for the consumers before launch.

This is something that in my world at least, is very rare. It saddens me that people would come in and try to stamp out the efforts of those who are trying to lobby for change.

HG may be an indie team yes, they may be small, but what they aren't is dumb. I can't believe they didn't see this coming. No matter how charming people in business and office ever seem there is absolutely no reason to just give them your trust, especially after they are profiting off of you. I see it all the time, people taking advantage of others whom you wouldn't believe where capable of doing so.

If you don't think this is a big deal, great. Just please, respect that we do and let us keep trying.

That's a message to rally the troops if ever I've heard one. Bravo. lol.

To briefly say sometimes yeah a random person or in this case dev ends up being the one the full force of the consumer weight lands on. It just happens that way every now and then. The perfect storm brews, the right amount of people get pissed off and of those pissed the right amount loudly start protesting and criticising all at once.

Sucks to be HG, but as you said they aren't stupid and they sure as hell are making big profits off consumers right now.
 

Russ T

Banned
Actually , there is nothing wrong with that quote , they made a world with rules that doesn't follow the ones we use , that why some thing happens within the game. Some planets are indeed way to close to each other and it couldn't happen IRL ( because each planet has a mass and a gravitationnal pull in normal life ).
Those things that happen IRL aren't used in NMS because they simplified the gameplay to allow Sci-fi looking planets.

The game has is own sci-fi like periodic table too , just like the quote and they build upgrades and ressources around it.

That's EXACTLy how games work , many things are simplifed to allow gameplay to happen... in EVERY GAME.

Exactly!
 

Ultrabum

Member
Did the game ever contain said physics? You can't possibly know. You literally can't unless you dig through all their previous builds.

Please see my post above.

I just explained to you that it never contained the claimed sky physics because the "claimed" physics don't follow real life physics and therefore can not be simulated rofl.

They made up some almost accurate science mumbo jumbo that is factually false.

In order to simulate physics, you have to at least use the right equation lol.
 

Kaisos

Member
lmao but isnt the game using skyboxes

Yep.

That's EXACTLy how games work , many things are simplifed to allow gameplay to happen... in EVERY GAME.

You're missing my point. They're talking about the game as though it's this pre-existing entity that worked according to Newtonian physics that they had to modify, when of course in a video game Newtonian physics are hardly the default state? That's what I'm objecting to. They're misrepresenting what the game actually is.
 

gtabmx

Neo Member
Can we all end the circle jerk bickering about God knows what.

At this point, all we know is they spent years hyping their game with promises of x,y,z, and maybe they tried to build those, but they aren't in the version of the game were playing.

The less we argue, the more time we have to sharpen our pitchforks.
 

watershed

Banned
The skybox thing is so dumb. That is a straight up lie. Why call out other games for using skyboxes when you're gonna do the exact same thing?
 

Russ T

Banned
Please see my post above.

I just explained to you that it never contained the claimed sky physics because the "claimed" physics don't follow real life physics and therefore can not be simulated rofl.

They made up some almost accurate science mumbo jumbo that is factually false.

In order to simulate physics, you have to at least use the right equation lol.

I... What.

Do you even read. I responded directly to you and you ignored that post to respond to something else unrelated to what you're talking about?

Holy shit and to think I used to think you were an all right guy.
 

Ultrabum

Member
I... What.

Do you even read. I responded directly to you and you ignored that post to respond to something else unrelated to what you're talking about?

Holy shit and to think I used to think you were an all right guy.

Reread the last page, I responded directly to you and you quoted some page about classical mechanics, completely ignoring the sky color quote.
 

Beaulieu

Member
How can I see my friends on the galactic map ? or was that also a lie ?¸

edit : sorry, wrong thread, didn't realize this was the optical science thread / the thread where two people argue back and forth for 5 pages.
 

Using gifs ? For what reason ? Everything i've said can be confirmed by anyone who has played the game. The quote is NOT wrong ..

They made a simulation using their own rules, That's why you can go from 107u to 9999u in less than 1 sec.
At some point this witch hunt is just going too far to look for things that aren't there.
 

Russ T

Banned
Reread the last page, I responded directly to you and you quoted some page about classical mechanics, completely ignoring the sky color quote.

Is English not your first language? I'm jealous, if so, because you speak it very well, but you're having series reading comprehension issues right now that I don't understand.
 
Thats good. I'm glad you brought up that you don't know for sure.

It turns out I am pretty good with optics because of my day job. I deal with microscopes and do a lot of work trying to take very high quality images of cells at specific wavelengths. One of the problems we face is light scattering, particularly Raman scattering.

Because of dealing with this I am also very familiar with Rayleigh scattering, which as it turns out is responsible for the color of the sky on Earth.

In fact, refraction of any light will result in the spreading out of all the wavelengths within that light. Refraction is responsible for rainbows .

It is impossible for refraction parameters of an element to make a sky green, because this would require all of the light being refracted to already be green, in which case you would not see the sky, just the star or light source creating the green light.

This is separate from diffraction , which also has nothing to do with the color of the sky and would result mostly in colors the same as the source of the light or spreading the light into all the colors of the spectrum like refraction. This is most frequently seen in soap bubbles which are very colorful due the interference of all the spread out wavelengths of light.

For the same reasons as with refraction, diffraction cannot make a sky green.

So, what I am saying is technically that quote is a lie, and that there is probably no advanced periodic table of elements or light physics being simulated and instead it is just a value in a spreadsheet that corresponds to green (probably 255 RGB style colors).


gRk1uZm.gif


But you are right in that I cannot know for sure that they did not invent their own rules of physics governing their system and instead simulated that with very advanced set of new equations and fictional periodic elements with different diffraction values.


It emphasizes the point that they built up the game to have these complex systems, which in reality do not exist (at least not in the color of the sky).

As a side note, I still think the game is great and probably worth $60 to many many people. I really loved fable too, but there's no question as to how much was lied about in marketing to try and sell the game.

My god, how deep does go?

g9AFU0g.png


https://my.mixtape.moe/vxhnde.webm
 
Yep.



You're missing my point. They're talking about the game as though it's this pre-existing entity that worked according to Newtonian physics that they had to modify, when of course in a video game Newtonian physics are hardly the default state? That's what I'm objecting to. They're misrepresenting what the game actually is.

That's your own interpretation of things that aren't in the quote you showed.

I mean they made a game by creating an universe using maths as the basis rendered by voxels .. How the heck are they supposed to explain it without compairing to a real life equivalent ?
 

Ultrabum

Member
Is English not your first language? I'm jealous, if so, because you speak it very well, but you're having series reading comprehension issues right now that I don't understand.

There is no need for personal attacks. Some confusion has been caused by multiple conversations so I will start over.

In this quote
346d573fec.PNG


They claim that in order to simulate green skies they had to redesign the periodic table to create particles that would diffract light at just the right wavelength.

I have cited several sources and explained that diffraction CANNOT CAUSE GREEN SKIES on any planet, in any situation. If you want the science explanation why, please see my posts on the previous page, which include sources.

Sky color is caused by Rayleigh scattering.

Therefore, at the time of the quote, the quote was a lie. They never simulated physics in order to generate sky color.

I hope that makes sense, I am actually just trying to explain optics which I am passionate about.

Edit: the long explanation is in post 8611
 
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