potatohead
Member
The human condition. Between the lines of this thread is the explanation of all our societal ills and shortcomings.
Just gotta find it somewhere...
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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
The human condition. Between the lines of this thread is the explanation of all our societal ills and shortcomings.
Just gotta find it somewhere...
Just did a quick search, might've forgotten to post this in this thread, though it was mildly interesting. Slashdot interview with the lead VLC developer:
https://interviews.slashdot.org/sto...nt-and-lead-vlc-developer-jean-baptiste-kempf
https://interviews.slashdot.org/sto...nt-and-lead-vlc-developer-jean-baptiste-kempf
How long before VLC for Xbox One?
by manishs
I have an Xbox One, and its built-in media player just sucks. And there's no alternative! I know you guys have promised that VLC will be available later this year on Microsoft's gaming platform, but can you share exactly how long we have to wait. Also, will VLC support HEVC files?
JBK: I'd guess early September. Or compile it yourself
Else, yes, it will support HEVC in software and in hardware on the XBox One S.
Adam Tyner
Member
At least all of this is better off being roped off here instead of polluting other threads.
In the thread about the PS Slim supporting 5 GHz wifi, he started going on and on about UHD support in the launch version of the Xbox One, which...what? He didn't even bring that up in response to anything.
If only Sony paid so much attention to their media features, despite having a media arm O_O. Seriously, VLC in software is gonna be a 100x better solution than that crappy proprietary app Sony has on the dashboard, VLC basically runs everything!
jeff_rigby
Banned
Do you second my speculation that the current PS4 Media Player/DLNA renderer without DRM is temporary? It has features similar to VLC but "VLC basically runs everything!" and VLC is 20-30 MB while the PS4 Media player is 400 MB in size. Both have no DRM support.
The PS4 intellectual notice has Playready and WMDRM. WMDRM is used for DTCP-IP streaming DRM in the home between DLNA devices....Vidipath for 720P and lower resolutions. Miracast has it's own DRM using WiFi direct and HDCP 2.2 and will support 1080P. Miracast is always paired with Vidipath in papers. 1080P DLNA DRM will require Playready ND which is also used for 4K. Some Blu-ray players have DLNA supported from network standby where a Phone DLNA app can turn on the player and control what plays (Music, Photo, Videos) which I think the PS4 will support.
That's multiple DLNA modes and more. BUT it's open source and no DRM support. Good because they can use the Shaders for codecs and support HEVC but bad because no commercial media can use it.https://interviews.slashdot.org/story/16/08/26/1338246/the-slashdot-interview-with-videolan-president-and-lead-vlc-developer-jean-baptiste-kempf said:"we need to break ecosystems and make them interoperable. There is no reason why you shouldn't Chromecast from a Windows Phone or AirPlay from Android. And I believe we are at the right position for that."
JBK: So I guess you are speaking about UPnP renderers, right? We're having the ChromeCast first, and then we'll do UPnP renderers, so you can push to those player easily.
So does everyone realize this confirms the game consoles will be more open compared to last generation. This applies to the browser too.JBK: I'd guess early September. Or compile it yourself
Else, yes, it will support HEVC in software and in hardware on the XBox One S.
Shopped at Walmart and was surprised at the number of blu-ray players on display with Sony having 4 different models from about $60 to $130 with the $99 and $130 models having UHD Upscaling. Contrast the number of codecs supported and features listed on the box with NONE on the PS4 Slim box pictures I have seen. Did I miss a picture listing features? Are none listed because firmware updates will add new features and boxes will have to be reprinted and reprinted and reprinted? The PS3 last generation was the best blu-ray player for many years of it's life....PS4 not the same this generation? Really?
jeff_rigby
Banned
This is what I brought up in the PS4 slim supporting 5 GhzWiFi thread. 5Ghz AC is needed for 4K WiFi which will be used by a LG combo ATSC 1 and ATSC 3 Tuner that demodulates and converts to IPTV WiFi streams (No HDMI pass-through needed) for use by all platforms in the home. Since a UHD capable console will likely also support UHD blu-ray, I stated consoles with WiFi N AC were likely to support all UHD media. Multiple tuners and multiple streams at the same time to multiple platforms in the home requires a very fast WiFi. The 5Ghz n AC-80 scheme can support this while G and plain old N can't. 1 Gbit Ethernet will strain to do so and plans are for 10 Gbit which will probably be supported with a Navi based console (2019).
Korea wants to broadcast ATSC 3 in 2017 and the Olympics in 4K early 2018. LG is a Korean firm. The FCC received a petition to allow US TV stations to start the transition to ATSC 3 in 2017. This will be a multi-year project with both ATSC 1 and 3 supported at the same time with the same programming. I assumed Sony wants to be part of this with the PS4 unless Patcher is correct and the XB1 is the only console that will support TV. ATSC 1 stations would pack-in more lower resolution channels which would force them to eliminate higher resolutions eventually and ATSC 3 would have those same channels at higher resolutions. Higher resolutions and more features with ATSC 3 would be the draw that gets consumers to buy the combo antenna and use ATSC 3 stations. Those extra features require something like a XB1 or PS4 with browser.
Oh, Vidipath will be used by Cable TV and Antenna TV Tuners to deliver media to all platforms in the home so the LG tuner is a Vidipath server with Cable TV DVRs as Vidipath servers since June 2015 and Cable moving to Cable modems supporting Vidipath when they move to all IPTV and eliminate cable boxes. Previous post made the case for the PS4 supporting Vidipath.
SmartWaffles
Member
These things "confirm" absolutely nothing.
jeff_rigby
Banned
No one except those who are insiders can know that. Before the launch of the PS4 a Sony employee stated the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port.
2013 Home Cinema Show
The PS4 was featured at the Show as a source for the 4K projection TVs.http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2013%2F09%2F06%2Fprojecteurs-home-cinema-resume-de-lifa-berlin-2013%2F said:
And this can be as screwed up as the efficientgaming.eu site with the Apple model where XB1s after 2016 are UHD capable not the launch models even though they are all called UHD capable.
What I have tried to do is to confirm it was possible;
1) 2013 Sony TVs have firmware upgrade-able ports.
2) Every phone with Miracast support since 2012 has a HDCP 2.2 software routine running in the TEE. The PS4 will have Miracast and Vidipath so it has a TEE with HDCP 2.2 in it. If you use a custom HDMI chip that passes HDCP negotiation to the routine running in the TEE you can have a cheaper HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2 port.
The exposed pins on the HDMI chip in the PS4 are now not allowed if the video on those pins is unencrypted (HDCP must take place in the TEE not the HDMI chip). At a minimum the traces must be hidden inside the motherboard and the HDMI chip must use connections that are not accessible.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Personally, I believe Jeff actually died a few years back, and we've been arguing with a highly advanced "Jeff Rigby" chatbot.
In the early 80's, after being the lead programmer of "Custard's Revenge", Jeff realized his genius would someday leave this world and the human race would suffer for it. Twenty plus years of development later, at the cost of nearly $400, he perfected the world's only firmware speculating/personal investment bragging chatbot.
This might sound strange, but I find it oddly comforting to know that long after the Sun has boiled away Earth's oceans, this thread will continue to be updated and stand as the last testament to human achievement by posting incoherent randomly constructed bullshit paragraphs until the universe itself ends.
Colbert
Banned
No one except those who are insiders can know that. Before the launch of the PS4 a Sony employee stated the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port.
2013 Home Cinema Show
The PS4 was featured at the Show as a source for the 4K projection TVs.
And this can be as screwed up as the efficientgaming.eu site with the Apple model where XB1s after 2016 are UHD capable not the launch models even though they are all called UHD capable.
What I have tried to do is to confirm it was possible;
1) 2013 Sony TVs have firmware upgrade-able ports.
2) Every phone with Miracast support since 2012 has a HDCP 2.2 software routine running in the TEE. The PS4 will have Miracast and Vidipath so it has a TEE with HDCP 2.2 in it. If you use a custom HDMI chip that passes HDCP negotiation to the routine running in the TEE you can have a cheaper HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2 port.
The exposed pins on the HDMI chip in the PS4 are now not allowed if the video on those pins is unencrypted (HDCP must take place in the TEE not the HDMI chip). At a minimum the traces must be hidden inside the motherboard and the HDMI chip must use connections that are not accessible.
Even so in 2013 it seemed your hypothesis could have a chance to be verified as true why you not just admit that you were wrong about it, NOW.
Why you still defend that position when reality and those new console SKUs tells you otherwise.
There is nothing bad with admitting to have followed a wrong theory, that happens to everyone at some point in time. Scientists has to deal with it all the time!
So take some courage and just admit that you followed an illusion.
exmachina64
Banned
I like this theory.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The media plans for the consoles have to take into account what the CE industry is doing. This is why the XB1 and PS4 are called UHD capable and we see in the XB1 support for the HEVC codec used for HD media even though Penello has told us the 2013 XB1 does not support UHD media. UHD support in 2013 was possible though more expensive for the HEVC codec, UHD support in the 2015 PS4, if the Media TEE is in Southbridge, would cost no more than the 2016 PS4 and I expect both the Slim and NEO to support UHD media.
The WiFi Xtensa DSP; in AMD APUs (Kaveri and Carrizo) and dGPUs from 2014 that have UVD 6 HEVC UHD codecs as well as the XB1 and PS4, is designed to also support HD and UHD blu-ray audio. Except for the 2013 XB1 GPU, all are also designed to support VR. ATSC 3 supports positional audio also called object audio which is also part of VR. AMD calls this True Audio.
We are moving to a common cross platform open source method for the UI and display of media which is HTML5 <video>. ALL media will be delivered as IPTV using these standards supported by a HTML5 web browser. DRM is critical for media with 1080P and higher resolutions and ATSC 3 includes DRM and will support 1080P and 4K media.
ATSC 3 is a game changer....it's a world wide standard at least for the RF broadcast parts with minor differences in Audio codec between Korea and US due to copyright of the Dolby audio we are going to use. The FCC is going to mandate that all Cell phones have to support ATSC 3 TV for the emergency alert. This plus DRM will make ANTENNA TV using ATSC 3 very attractive and programming like Showtime, the SciFi channel and more will want to be on free Antenna TV. Cable knows this and is moving to all IPTV cable box not needed and will be providing packages like Sony is doing to supplement Free Antenna TV which is also delivered as IPTV over the home network using Vidipath as a standard. Both will want an efficient codec (HEVC) and will support more channels with higher resolutions, mostly 1080P which is now not possible for Antenna TV. Then there is the targeted commercials which ATSC 3 will support and support for which is built into HTML5 <video> that everyone will use.
Sony started GetTV Antenna TV channels in Major markets around 2010, They started Playstation Vue a little more than a year ago and it's being implemented market by market as the Internet servers can handle it. Cable planned to start implementing all IPTV from Cable modems in 2017 and Comcast says they will have all their cable infrastructure able to support Gigabit cable modems by the end of 2017.
What's the timetable for ATSC 3?
2017 combo ATSC 1 and 3 vidipath tuners available and by the end of 2017 Korea and major cities in the US will have a few ATSC 3 stations.
2018 Korea wants to broadcast the Olympics in 4K
The big Gorilla in the room is China which is implementing advanced cable TV as a way to tie the country together. TV provides a way to standardize the language and culture as well as provides educational opportunities. ATSC 3 is delivered to a web page and every ATSC 3 TV has a browser somewhere either in the STB converting to 1080P or in the TV.
The Consoles before the Slims from both Microsoft and Sony may not support UHD media or Antenna TV's ATSC 3. This means the 40 million or so PS4s can not support what is coming in 2017 unless Sony has plans for a UHD Nasne as part of a Vidipath Tuner package for the home. For China a cheaper PS4 is needed with UHD support including WiFi N ac-80 and Sony started advertising casual PS4 games in China last month. That appears to be the Slim.
Yes it's possible I was wrong and only 2016 and later consoles will support UHD media as it fits the timetable. If this is the case, if you remove my statements concerning Launch and 2013 consoles, they are then generally accurate as to how HD media is supported and UHD plans after 2016.
Edit: Cable’s ‘VidiPath’ to Retail includes emergency alert CE industry (Sony) is part of the DLNA CVP2 (Vidpath) initiative. Sony plans to support Vidipath with the PS3, PS4 and Vita.
Sanctuary
Member
And yet it's still inferior to Media Player Classic, by a lot.
Colbert
Banned
I suppose, but that's neither here nor there to console file format support.VLC is a relevation compared to the previous hell
Adam Tyner
Member
jeff_rigby
Banned
PS4 southbridge as Media TEE which is another speculation of mine. Goto HiroshiShigeru also stated the PS4 HDMI chip would be custom which proved to be correct.
If this is the case then only the 256 MB secondary chip/southbridge memory could be used to cache video gameplay so it's most likely all saved to hard disk.https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column/kaigai/594708.html&prev=search said:
Blu-ray playback without the PS4 APU on or full screen video of any type with APU off.
If the goal of the PS4 design is to off load functions from the APU to not impact game play, the camera pre-processing should also be done in Southbridge with a DSP. True audio is supported in the PS4 but the Liverpool GPU PS4 is based on has no True Audio support and again off load those features to Southbridge, Codecs in AMD APUs and dGPUs as well as True Audio are Xtensa DSPs on an ARM bus. These DSPs can do vision processing and codecs.
The above forms the basis for my understanding of the PS4 hardware. The PS4 design impacts speculation. For example, everything HD and UHD Blu-ray would be in that Secondary custom chip as Southbridge including the TEE, Codecs, HDCP 2.2 routine, HDR routine and with a custom HDMI chip Sony could support UHD blu-ray with this chip. If not in the 2013 version then in the 2015 PS4 version. It depends on Sony not AMD. In the 2016 Slim and NEO, I believe it's again the custom secondary chip as southbridge not the APU that determines UHD blu-ray support.
jeff_rigby
Banned
According to Ito:
It wasn't Ito that mentioned game streaming encoder in the APU, it was the author of the article. In the article; Ito says the 2013 PS4 will support two of the coming UHD blu-ray features; HDR and object/positional audio for games through the custom HDMI port but not UHD. HDR requires HDR negotiation passing though the HDMI chip to the game engine which makes the PS4 HDMI port what I would call a 1.4a which is not a HDMI standard. So is the custom port able to communicate with UHD TVs and support HDR over a HDMI 1.4 port or is it a HDMI 2.0a port with only HD output?
Given the interview occurred just before the release of the 2015 PS4 and final designs for the PS4 Slim and Neo would have been locked with chips for the 2016 PS4 already in pre-production, this statement "corresponding policies for Ultra HD Blu-ray is of a currently under consideration." means support is in hardware for releasing UHD on either 2016 and possibly the 2015 console and the only part that could change would be the drive which according to Penello, the difference between HD and UHD drives is a change in the lens which would have no difference in cost.
Sony has not announced UHD blu-ray support in any PS4 console and the PS4 Slim box does not list features like Sony's Upscaling HD blu-ray players list. No list of supported codecs, CD, DLNA just a few IPTV Apps. I believe the above is the reason. No UHD blu-ray support but support for UHD streaming media is also a possible choice.
It wasn't Ito that mentioned game streaming encoder in the APU, it was the author of the article. In the article; Ito says the 2013 PS4 will support two of the coming UHD blu-ray features; HDR and object/positional audio for games through the custom HDMI port but not UHD. HDR requires HDR negotiation passing though the HDMI chip to the game engine which makes the PS4 HDMI port what I would call a 1.4a which is not a HDMI standard. So is the custom port able to communicate with UHD TVs and support HDR over a HDMI 1.4 port or is it a HDMI 2.0a port with only HD output?
Business decision and shown with the XB1 slim hardware breakdown, it costs no more from 2015 and later to support UHD Blu-ray than it does to support HD blu-ray given console economy of scale.
Given the interview occurred just before the release of the 2015 PS4 and final designs for the PS4 Slim and Neo would have been locked with chips for the 2016 PS4 already in pre-production, this statement "corresponding policies for Ultra HD Blu-ray is of a currently under consideration." means support is in hardware for releasing UHD on either 2016 and possibly the 2015 console and the only part that could change would be the drive which according to Penello, the difference between HD and UHD drives is a change in the lens which would have no difference in cost.
Sony has not announced UHD blu-ray support in any PS4 console and the PS4 Slim box does not list features like Sony's Upscaling HD blu-ray players list. No list of supported codecs, CD, DLNA just a few IPTV Apps. I believe the above is the reason. No UHD blu-ray support but support for UHD streaming media is also a possible choice.
jeff_rigby
Banned
GearDraxon
Member
"Well, everyone knows that 2013 consoles shipped with support for standard Blu-rays only. What this thread presupposes is...maybe they didn't?"
jeff_rigby
Banned
This thread is a continuation of The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray thread after I found the efficientgaming.eu site and read the only paper released at that time which indicated in charts that started in 2013 the UHD Game console power savings. In the first page I indicated that it could be one or both consoles. The second letter I found was the Independent Lab testing the PS4 and XB1 launch consoles for HD power use and calling both UHD capable.
This was before a leak of the NEO and announcement of the XB1 Slim and articles stating that Sony and Microsoft were following the Apple model in iterative console releases with a three year cycle. I had already shown that it was possible in 2013 to support HDMI 2, HEVC and the drive was following a 2010 BD-R spec with firmware update which is now confirmed by Penello (maybe).
It's been confirmed by Penello that the 2013 XB1 will not support UHD media. In the Microsoft required UHD Console power use paper, Microsoft called the 2013 XB1 HD capable while Sony still calls the 2013 and 2015 PS4 UHD Capable.
Ito of Sony has said the Drive can not support reading three layers and in the Sony manual the PS4 drive supports BD-ROM (2006) and BD-R Version 2 (2008) but not the 2010 BD-R Version 3 which apparently requires a firmware update and new Lens and was in 2011 BD-R drives. BD-R Version 3 drives can read Version 2 disks which are two of the 4 UHD disk formats, the other two able to be read by 2006 BD-ROM drives. We can take from this that a drive that can read UHD disks should be no more expensive than a HD Blu-ray drive and could have been or was available in 2013. The firmware update would have to wait.
The XB1 slim will likely follow how a PC supports DP and HDMI 2 with HDCP 2.2 happening in the TEE and HDMI chip forwarding negotiation to the TEE in the XB1 APU. The PS4 does the same with the TEE in Southbridge, if not for HDMI 2 then for HDMI 1.4. This would allow both to support HDMI 2 in 2013 with firmware update if the HDMI chip supported the HDMI timings and forwarded HDCP 2.2 negotiation to the TEE. Penello says the 2013 XB1 does not support HDMI 2.
Ito says the PS4 has no HEVC support. What I have shown is that the Xtensa DSP is used for codecs in AMD dGPUs and APUs and the XB1 uses the same and the HD HEVC profile 10 codec in the 2013 XB1 is nearly the same software running on a less powerful Xtensa DSP. With hardware accelerators in the Xtensa DSP that may not have been available in 2011-2012 it does not require a more powerful DSP.
The Xtensa DSP in the PS4 is also used for codecs and to pre-process camera video in Southbridge which the XB1 does not need as Kinect does that in the camera. The Xtensa DSP is also used to distort the video for the VR goggles. It would seem that the PS4 needs more DSP. Ito's comment that the PS4 has no HEVC codec could be taken as a NDA misdirection with software updates to support HDMI 2, UHD disks and HEVC codec running on a larger DSP block the only needs to support UHD Media.
Why am I sticking to the PS4 supporting UHD Blu-ray, because they have 40 million PS4 consoles in the field and they plan to support ATSC 3. This is why the PS4 and XB1 are called UHD Capable. The 2013 XB1 supports HEVC for HD media which is a temporary short term need that the PS4 should support at a minimum. This would make Ito's comment that the PS4 has no HEVC codec wrong,
http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm said:
Adam Tyner
Member
You don't appear to understand what "confirmation" means. If you have to qualify it with "maybe", then nothing's been confirmed.
Good on you for failing to recognize a riff on a line from The Royal Tenenbaums and responding with a wall of misinformation, though! Keep fighting the good fight.
Chû Totoro
Member
Mods ffs kill this thread.
It's now more embarrassing than everything else... and not fun at all.
It's now more embarrassing than everything else... and not fun at all.
I still doubt the site. It is hosted at the Google Cloud and doesn't seem to be something official at all. It looks like a oneman site with very little content, to be honest.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If there is miss-information please point out the errors. This has been the problem,
"You are insane, have mental problems, are a robot"
but no critique of the technology I AND OTHERS ascribe to the XB1 and PS4. You just call it misinformation. This is a disservice to anyone reading this thread.
The "maybe" is I have a hard time believing there are two blu-ray drive hardware lines where the only difference is the lens to more accurately read three layers. One hardware version able to ready both makes more sense. Is Penello a good source for this?
jeff_rigby
Banned
No it's official, look at the people and companies representing Microsoft and Sony. If you look up the companies listed they mention in their sites that they represent Microsoft and Sony and point back to the efficientgaming.eu site.
Adam Tyner
Member
What's the point? No one takes you seriously anymore, so no one is really being misled by the garbage you're spouting off. You've been corrected by many, many people many, many times, and none of that has changed your mind. You've even sneered at a number of people from Sony and Microsoft -- including several who work directly with this technology and would be in a position to know -- as being incompetent and/or liars. There's no reason to think that another round of corrections would have any greater an impact.
Sad little king of a sad little hill.
martino
Member
don't understand the thread...even if hardware could do it ...what the point if sony/ms is not willing to bring it on the software side...
ps4 slim leaks indicate it don't t bring the feature..good indication they don't care (maybe for neo)
xbox one s has it but not the one...if they had to release it on one they would have done releasing the s...(but it seems better for them you trade the original for s version)
ps4 slim leaks indicate it don't t bring the feature..good indication they don't care (maybe for neo)
xbox one s has it but not the one...if they had to release it on one they would have done releasing the s...(but it seems better for them you trade the original for s version)
My son, no one does.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
LostDonkey
Member
It's like slowing down to look at a car crash.
Simon Belmont
Banned
And the car has been crashing for over a year.
At this point it's like looking at skid marks
Colbert
Banned
This thread is not about facts but about the believes of Jeff Rigby!
Maybe thats the reason you can't find the sense behind it as Jeff tends to write big walls of text that distracts you from the actual facts: The launch consoles are not and will never be able to support UHD as the hardware was not made for it. No matter what he derives from his "findings" and "between the lines", reality proves the opposite!
potatohead
Member
Everyone apologize to Jeff Rigby right now.
I'll start. I'm sorry!
I'll start. I'm sorry!
SEGAvangelist
Member
This thread got even better.
Mase Gumble
Member
Rigby was right? 😭😭😭