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[Negotiator]

No they are always stored on the HDD, according to Mark Cerny.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/22/4646696/ps4-mark-cerny-interview-gamescom-2013

Then explain why 30-60min PVR (v4.00 beta) reduces the quality of the video... HDDs have plenty of capacity, so it doesn't make any sense.

Also, if it constantly uses the HDD, does this mean that SSD users are fucked up (due to limited write cycles)?

 

[JonathanPower]

Then explain why 30-60min PVR (v4.00 beta) reduces the quality of the video... HDDs have plenty of capacity, so it doesn't make any sense.

It's still a beta so this aspect may improve in the official firmware.

Also, if it constantly uses the HDD, does this mean that SSD users are fucked up (due to limited write cycles)?

Yes, this is something you should consider when you use an SSD drive in your PS4.

 

[Lady Gaia]

Then explain why 30-60min PVR (v4.00 beta) reduces the quality of the video... HDDs have plenty of capacity, so it doesn't make any sense.

I'm not sure what the underlying filesystem on the PS4 is, but it's not hard to believe that they'd have a fixed size region allocated on disk to serve as a circular buffer for recorded video. That makes it easy to guarantee that the storage is contiguous to avoid filesystem overhead, fragmentation, and growth-related issues like tying up CPU time when you need to search for free space.

Also, if it constantly uses the HDD, does this mean that SSD users are fucked up (due to limited write cycles)?

Wear leveling means that even writing to the same logical area over and over doesn't wear out an SSD unevenly. If your drive can only handle 2000 write cycles it should still take 28 years of continuous play time for the 1GB of recorded video written over a 15 minutes period to wear out a 500GB SSD.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Reshuffling discussion from CONFIRMED: PS4 Slim supports 5GHz wifi. I asked:

Can you provide some examples of HDMI 1.4 devices upgraded via firmware to support HDCP 2.2? Everything I'm able to find says that this is not possible.

...and...

Already in the other thread where Sony 2013 4K TVs have firmware upgradeable HDMI ports. So we are astonished that the PS4 might have a firmware updateable HDMI port in 2013 also?
some companies are claiming they'll be able to update their 1.4 inputs to work with 2.0 via a simple firmware update.
Samsung will update its SUHD & UHD TVs with HDMI 2.0a

That doesn't address what I'm asking. HDCP 2.2 requires HDMI 2.0, but having HDMI 2.0 doesn't inherently mean you have everything necessary to implement HDCP 2.2. This was an issue with a wide variety of receivers in 2014. They could support HDMI 2.0 speeds but lacked the chipset necessary for HDCP 2.2 (such as Silicon Image's SiL9679).

Our current range of Harman Kardon AVR does not support HDCP 2.2. Some models are HDMI 2.0 certified but without HDCP 2.2. Here are the details: AVR 1610S and AVR 1710S HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 1.4. Our next-generation product will support both HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, even if it is a bit early to provide an accurate date on availability of next generation.

The majority of our current AV receivers support full bandwidth (18Ggbps) HDMI 2.0, however they do not support HDCP 2.2. Moving forward Pioneer understands the need to support both full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 for compatibility with next-generation 4K sources and upcoming video technologies such as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut.

No models currently [support HDCP 2.2]. Although we will be offering a free hardware upgrade to our flagship Denon AVR-X7200W and Marantz AV8802 products in the spring. [The upgrade will be for] all inputs except for the front [panel HDMI] in. And this is not the color/bandwidth limited 4K/2.2 input that you find on [some existing] products; this is full spec 4K60@4:4:4 color with HDCP 2.2.

The Denon AVR-X7200W and Marantz AV8802 even launched with HDMI 2.0 but still require that an authorized service center make a physical hardware change to support HDCP 2.2.

Please list some specific products that were limited to an earlier version of HDCP but now support 2.2 with a firmware update. As far as I can tell, this has never happened, nor could it ever happen.

 

[Nostremitus]

Reshuffling discussion from CONFIRMED: PS4 Slim supports 5GHz wifi. I asked:



...and...

That doesn't address what I'm asking. HDCP 2.2 requires HDMI 2.0, but having HDMI 2.0 doesn't inherently mean you have everything necessary to implement HDCP 2.2. This was an issue with a wide variety of receivers in 2014. They could support HDMI 2.0 speeds but lacked the chipset necessary for HDCP 2.2 (such as Silicon Image's SiL9679).







The Denon AVR-X7200W and Marantz AV8802 even launched with HDMI 2.0 but still require that an authorized service center make a physical hardware change to support HDCP 2.2.

Please list some specific products that were limited to an earlier version of HDCP but now support 2.2 with a firmware update. As far as I can tell, this has never happened, nor could it ever happen.

FWIW, Sony sent out a firmware update for Bravia C series 4K TVs that added HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 compliance. It also added HDR support. They were not compliant prior to the firmware update.

Probably means nothing for the PS4, but then again, Sony. They have a precedence for over engineering products so that they can be firmware updated for features that were still on the horizon when they were created.

 

[Tripolygon]

FWIW, Sony sent out a firmware update for Bravia C series 4K TVs that added HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 compliance. It also added HDR support. They were not compliant prior to the firmware update.

Probably means nothing for the PS4, but then again, Sony. They have a precedence for over engineering products so that they can be firmware updated for features that were still on the horizon when they were created.

The software update does not turn HDMI 1.4 into HDMI 2.0, the updates just provide security keys needed to playback protected 4K content which made them compliant with the HDCP 2.2 standard. The hardware was already in place, they just needed the software side to be fully compliant. Some of the earlier batch of TVs needed hardware changes to be fully complaint but the later models needed just the software because they added the hardware during production.

At least that is how it was explained to me.

 

[Nostremitus]

The software update does not turn HDMI 1.4 into HDMI 2.0, the updates just provide security keys needed to playback protected 4K content which made them complaint with the HDCP 2.2 standard. The hardware was already in place, they just needed the software side to be fully complaint. Some of the earlier batch of TVs needed hardware changes to be fully complaint but the later models needed just the software because they added the hardware during production.

At least that is how it was explained to me.

I never said it did. Read my post again. That was my point.

Sony does this, they release things that are capable of performing tasks before the software needed to do the task is set. That's why they were able to update through firmware.

Why do you think I said this?

They have a precedence for over engineering products so that they can be firmware updated for features that were still on the horizon when they were created.

Edit: Let me be clear, I do not think that Sony will update the PS4 for UHD Bluray playback. I would not, however, be surprised if it were possible.

 

[Adam Tyner]

FWIW, Sony sent out a firmware update for Bravia C series 4K TVs that added HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 compliance. It also added HDR support. They were not compliant prior to the firmware update.

Probably means nothing for the PS4, but then again, Sony. They have a precedence for over engineering products so that they can be firmware updated for features that were still on the horizon when they were created.

While you're definitely correct, this is a different situation than what Jeff is arguing.

Many of the early announcements / articles I can find on the C series affirm HDCP 2.2 support from word one, although, as you note, they weren't enabled until a little over 6 months ago. That seems to be because all the necessary hardware was already in place, unlike certain runs of the A series, which required a board swap to support HDCP 2.2.

 

[Nostremitus]

While you're definitely correct, this is a different situation than what Jeff is arguing.

Many of the early announcements / articles I can find on the C series affirm HDCP 2.2 support from word one, although, as you note, they weren't enabled until a little over 6 months ago. That seems to be because all the necessary hardware was already in place, unlike certain runs of the A series, which required a board swap to support HDCP 2.2.

The 2013 850A and 8500A support HDCP 2.2 without chip replacement. Only on HDMI 4, though. I guess it depends on whether they used that solution for the PS4. Sony certainly had access to it in 2013.


http://sony-eur-eu-en-web--eur.cust...-ultra-hd-bravia-tv-compatible-with-hdcp-2.2?

 

[Adam Tyner]

The 2013 850A and 8500A support HDCP 2.2 without chip replacement. Only on HDMI 4, though. I guess it depends on which chip made it into the PS4...

Absolutely. No matter how things pan out with the launch PS4, though, Jeff's whole thing is that HDCP 2.2 isn't hardware-dependent. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, that's not correct.

If it were a firmware update away, why would other A series displays (like early runs of the X900A) need a board to be swapped? Why would those Denon and Marantz receivers need a board swap? Why have seemingly no other early 4K displays or receivers had firmware updates to support HDCP 2.2?

 

[Nostremitus]

Absolutely. No matter how things pan out with the launch PS4, though, Jeff's whole thing is that HDCP 2.2 isn't hardware-dependent. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, that's not correct.

If it were a firmware update away, why would other A series displays (like early runs of the X900A) need a board to be swapped? Why would those Denon and Marantz receivers need a board swap? Why have seemingly no other early 4K displays or receivers had firmware updates to support HDCP 2.2?

Oh, I never claimed it was strictly software. If it could be emulated easily it wouldn't be very good copyright protection. I'm just saying its possible Sony put a compliant chip in the PS4 but never updated it's firmware.

Edit: Please don't think I'm endorsing the idea that the PS4 has this... I am by no means saying that, just that Sony had the means to do so if they had wanted to.

 

[Brofield]

Wow, this thread is still going?

I tried to read the OP 3 times and couldn't understand how jeff reach all this conclusions.

Truth be told I need a Simple English wiki edit on Jeff's and several other posters to understand what is going on. Something about 4K blu-ray players in game consoles already, and everyone telling Jeff he's wrong?

Hell, I'd sooner understand a Sri Lankan auctioneer at this point. I don't even know which acronyms to pronounce phonetically anymore.

 

[Cobalt03]

what a scam to refer to the neo and xb1-s as now offering a "4k blu ray player" launch consoles could have it

 

[LordofPwn]

From what I remember, when PS4's were ready to go into production HDCP2.2 specs weren't finalized and that in order to implement HDCP2.2 you needed to have the hardware built with HDCP2.2 in mind because it was an overhaul to HDCP. HDCP2.2 is kinda the reason why the UHD media landscape is kinda fucked at the moment. Iirc everything in the chain has to be compliant which means the player, receiver if you have one (most enthusiasts probably do), and TV all have to shake hands and if one thing doesn't respond then the whole thing doesn't work. For some that means they have to upgrade their receiver, or the $1000+ UHD TV they bought a couple years ago won't work and that's pretty shitty.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Absolutely. No matter how things pan out with the launch PS4, though, Jeff's whole thing is that HDCP 2.2 isn't hardware-dependent. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, that's not correct.

If it were a firmware update away, why would other A series displays (like early runs of the X900A) need a board to be swapped? Why would those Denon and Marantz receivers need a board swap? Why have seemingly no other early 4K displays or receivers had firmware updates to support HDCP 2.2?

danhese007 is correct and that is what I have been consistently saying. LordofPwn is mostly correct, he just needs that HDCP 2.2 is a software routine and designed to run on ARM trustzone TEE's or ARM TEEs were designed to support a scheme that is HDCP 2.2. Hardware that does not use a ARM Trustzone TEE has to have equal features and performance to support HDCP 2.2 software.

You have it backwards. A ARM Trustzone processor in a TEE is almost always paired with cryptographic accelerators, ROM for embedded KEYs and scratchpad memory. HDCP 2.2 is a software routine that uses these hardware features and TMP 2.0 is the standard outlining the Security features and how they must be protected and used. If you are going to support Miracast, Vidipath for 1080P or greater media, HDMI over LAN and more you need HDCP 2.2 and HDCP 2.2 must be run in a TEE for security.

You already have HDCP 2.2 for 1080P DRM in the PS4. (see last paragraph)

Further the Movie industry specified HDMI 2's HDCP 2.2 must take place in the TEE where AACS 2 encrypted UHD blu-ray media enters the TEE and is processed to a playable state and then HDCP 2.2 encrypted before it exits the TEE to the separate HDMI 2 chip. The HDMI 2 chip is separate and opto isolated from the main hardware to eliminate static discharge from coming in the HDMI port and damaging the Southbridge chip. Those opto-isolators and the separate chip create easily accessible points where video can be recorded if it were not already encrypted.

Old method: cracked in 2010

AACS media =>[ decrypts AACS, processes video,]=> media vulnerable - Opto Isolators -media vulnerable- HDMI[ Encrypts using HDCP1.4 after negotiating HDCP with the TV HDMI]

New more secure method using a ARM Trustzone processor creating a TEE paired with cryptographic accelerators, ROM for embedded KEYs and scratchpad memory. HDCP 2.2 is a software routine that uses these hardware features. Can support HDMI/HDCP 1.4 as well as HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2

AACS2 media =>TEE[ decrypts AACS2, processes video, applies HDR after negotiating with TV, Encrypts using HDCP2 after negotiating HDCP2.2 with the TV HDMI]=> Opto Isolators-HDMI chip

Note: processes video includes the codec which is required to be in the TEE as is any unencrypted video

Traditionally HDMI's HDCP happened in the HDMI chip which exposed the media on the input pins to the HDMI chip. With a TEE and HDCP 2.2 already in the console for Miracast, you use the same HDCP 2.2 and forward HDCP negotiations from the HDMI chip to the HDCP 2.2 software routine running in the TEE. The HDMI 2 chip just needs to handle the new resolutions which were known well in advance. HDCP 2.2 was in ARM phones in 2012 for Miracast support.

To support a more open Game Console or Computer with full browser features and not be subject to Virus or other hacks and to DRM protect commercial media you neet to comply with the TMP 2.0 standards. This is the same for a PS4 that is HD or UHD capable. You must have a Trusted boot using a ARM trustzone TEE with cryptographic accelerators and hidden protected keys in internal ROM unique to that console which decrypt a ARM OS image ro run in the TEE. Then the ARM TEE booting the X-86 APU OS software from an encrypted file. After boot some method to confirm the OS has not been changed with checksum or other method which I haven't been able to find. The encrypted OS files for the ARM OS and X-86 OS are unique to each PS4 which is why you can't move a Hard Disk from one PS4 to another PS4 and have it work. This was the same for the PS3 using a hypervisor which is not as secure as a ARM TEE.

Using the X-86 hardware to process the incoming PS4 firmware updates does not comply with TMP 2.0 or any best practice security. This is why most PC motherboards require a TMP module. I'd guess it's because Sony had not implemented TMP 2.0 published April 2015 using the ARM Trustzone processor in Southbridge. Further I'd guess they did not want to possibly expose the ARM routines until they had fully implemented what is thought to be a secure system. When they implement TMP 2.0 standards there should be a major rewrite to both the ARM and X-86 OS.

Sony is going to support Vidipath on the PS3 and PS4. I showed a PDF Sony sent to the FCC DSTAC with the PS3 as a Vidipath client and a PDF with the PS4 using the TEE and supporting HTML5 <video> MSE EME as a replacement for the cable card. There is also this job posting to port Playready (Embedded) to the PS3/PS4/Vita. Playready embedded in the Platform not in the App as is has been done (Playready 2 and less). Playready porting kit 2.5 (parts of Playready are embedded in the OS and hardware) and greater require hardware support which in the PS3 uses the Hypervisor and embedded keys and Playready porting kit 3 can use an ARM TEE. Vidipath and Miracast are paired together.

 

[Adam Tyner]

danhese007 is correct and that is what I have been consistently saying. LordofPwn is mostly correct, he just needs that HDCP 2.2 is a software routine and designed to run on ARM trustzone TEE's or ARM TEEs were designed to support a scheme that is HDCP 2.2.

Why did Lattice develop so many chips that serve no purpose, then? Is it fraud on Lattice's part, or is this an illusion and what are widely referred to as HDCP 2.2 chips never actually exist?

Why would Sony's early 4K displays only have HDCP 2.2 supported through certain inputs if it exists entirely independently of HDMI? Where is the long list of devices that've been firmware-upgraded to support HDCP 2.2? There are countless articles from reputable sources stating that HDCP 2.2 requires hardware changes and cannot be implemented via firmware updates; what can be done to address this widely held misinformation?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Are you saying, then, that, say, Lattice's SiI9679 chipset never existed? If you agree that it does exist, what sort of fraud did they perpetrate to convince so many manufacturers to use a chipset that doesn't serve its stated purpose?

Why would Sony's early 4K displays only have HDCP 2.2 supported through certain inputs if it exists entirely independently of HDMI? Where is the long list of device that've been firmware-upgraded to support HDCP 2.2?

HDMI Source and Receivers are two different animals. The BDA and content owners specs for the source specify only the security features it must have not that it has to be supported with an ARM TEE. Every device the HDCP 2.2 media goes through must have a HDCP 2.2 routine running in a secure environment.

I guess you missed my edit which included this: " Hardware that does not use a ARM Trustzone TEE has to have equal features and performance to support HDCP 2.2 software."

I do not know how a TV protects the media outside the HDCP 2.2 secure environment. What I have read of the player requirements as applied to the PS4 and XB1, which if not now will eventually be a UHD player and support UHD media, will need to follow the following.

Extron Electronics &#8211; Introduction to HDCP 2.2 09/08/15

HDCP 2.0 was released in 2008 to strengthen encryption and be applicable to any digital interface, including Ethernet, wireless, or compressed formats. HDCP 2.0 found wide adoption in
wireless video products, where the wireless interface is encrypted using HDCP 2.0, while the wired local video connectors retain HDCP 1.x.

HDCP 2.2 is the most recent release that was introduced in 2012 and strengthened some procedures in the HDCP 2.1 security protocol. A dedicated specification for
mapping HDCP 2.2 to HDMI was released in 2013.

TrustZone®, TEE and Trusted Video Path Implementation Considerations

TEE as Trusted Media Playback Platform See especially page 6 and 18

The Device must implement a set of security features to enable protection of media content rendering path on the device, such that content decryption to decode, decompression and rendering/output to external links, is protected from unauthorised software and hardware components;

The Device must implement a set of security features to enable robust DRM implementations to protect assets such as usage policy, account info, DRM application secrets and keys which allow media access;
Device Security features and assets must be protected against tampering and modification by other unauthorized software and hardware components

Robustness Rules Enhancements for UHD Players

&#8226; Trusted Execution Environment
&#8226; Secure media pipeline that provides end-to-end protection that
encompasses, at a minimum, decryption through to protected output
&#8226; Secure processing environment isolated by hardware mechanisms running
only authenticated code for performing critical operations.
&#8226; The security of this environment must be proven with extensive testing. E.g., secure
OS, media pipeline configuration, handling sensitive cryptography
&#8226; The platform shall be able to protect memory of the secure execution
environment against access from untrusted code & devices
&#8226; The platform shall support runtime integrity checking of secure applications

TEE secure environment with end to end protection is the following

AACS2 media =>TEE[ decrypts AACS2, processes video, applies HDR after negotiating with TV, Encrypts using HDCP2 after negotiating HDCP2.2 with the TV HDMI]=> Opto Isolators-HDMI chip

Note: processes video includes the codec which is required to be in the TEE as is any unencrypted video

 

[Adam Tyner]

HDMI Source and Receivers are two different animals.

That doesn't really sound like end-to-end protection to me then.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Why.
Are.
We.
Still
Going?

 

[jeff_rigby]

That doesn't really sound like end-to-end protection to me then.

This is a picture of the PS4 opto-isolators and Panasonic custom HDMI chip. Content protection at a minimum for 1080P NOW requires these pins to be inaccessible unless the video stream is already HDCP encrypted. 1080P will soon require Playready 2.5 or greater embedded DRM. This is a roadmap that also eliminated Component output from DVD and Cable TV STBs.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Content protection at a minimum for 1080P and greater NOW requires these pins to be inaccessible unless the video stream is already HDCP compressed.

HDCP is not a compression scheme.

 

[onQ123]

HDCP is not a compression scheme.

How did you get that from his post?



He is clearly talking about the protection like how you can't watch protected 1080P content if you have your PS3 hooked up without HDMI (Well that's the way it was at some point but I can't say for sure if that's still the case)

 

[Adam Tyner]

How did you get that from his post?

He said "HDCP compressed". That's not a thing. I got that from his post because...that's where he said it?

He is clearly talking about the protection like how you can't watch protected 1080P content if you have your PS3 hooked up without HDMI

I know what he's trying to say, but I don't believe many (any?) of his conclusions are accurate. His accuracy rate throughout this thread has been, to be kind, less than stellar. I mean, look at the title.

Everything I've read says that HDCP 2.2 cannot be implemented purely with a firmware update. If that's inaccurate, surely there are many examples of devices with HDCP 2.2 firmware updates. Where are they? As far as I can tell, the only devices that have been updated to support HDCP 2.2 required a board swap, or, in the cases of those Sony TVs, they already had the hardware in place but needed a firmware update to flip the switch on.

 

[Nostremitus]

or they already had the hardware in place but needed a firmware update to flip the switch on.

I think this is what JR is trying to say.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I think this is what JR is trying to say.

To clarify, I mean that the necessary HDCP 2.2 chipsets were in place. He says there are no HDCP 2.2 chipsets.

 

[Nostremitus]

To clarify, I mean that the necessary HDCP 2.2 chipsets were in place. He says there are no HDCP 2.2 chipsets.

Oh, I feel lost trying to read his posts, I must have missed that.

 

[jeff_rigby]

HDCP is not a compression scheme.

Sorry, encrypted...wife was rushing me.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Sorry, encrypted...wife was rushing me.

Even the wife is telling him to stop.

 

[Nictel]

Sorry, encrypted...wife was rushing me.

Too perfect

 

[jeff_rigby]

That doesn't really sound like end-to-end protection to me then.

The Player/source can have end to end protection with NO unencrypted media exiting the TEE, same for every HDCP 2.2 protected device in the chain to the TV but the TV can't do this as eventually the media has to be sent to a frame buffer for display. In a TV I believe a HDMI 2 chip contains the HDCP 2.2 and protection becomes hidden traces inside the motherboard. The standard becomes making it difficult for everyone but a professionally equipped lab.

In a PC the media being sent to the Display port can be encrypted using HDCP 2.2 in the TEE. This allows an external box connected to the PC's DP with it's own HDCP 2.2 routine to pair with the TEE in the PC GPU or APU and convert to HDMI 2 with HDCP 2.2 on the HDMI output on the box.

In embedded/Game Consoles the media is encrypted (AACS2) and the bus between the Drive and TEE is encrypted. In the TEE first the data on the bus is unencrypted then the AACS2 encrypted media is unencrypted, processed and then encrypted and passed to a HDMI chip similar to a PC and how I believe the PS4 does as there was no attempt to hide the traces to the HDMI chip or since it's under the control of a Manufacturer, the traces from the TEE to the HDMI 2 chip can be hidden inside the motherboard and HDCP 2.2 can take place inside the HDMI chip. However; If it becomes known, with the required Watermarking, that a UHD player is being used to access unencrypted media the Player can be blacklisted and will within 48 hours or when a new UHD disk is played, will then not be able to play any UHD media. All or any one Player of a particular model number can be blacklisted.

The above creates a great risk for any Embedded manufacturer who does not protect unencrypted media outside the TEE to acceptable standards. To protect themselves they will submit their design to testing labs to insure they have complied.

To clarify, I mean that the necessary HDCP 2.2 chipsets were in place. He says there are no HDCP 2.2 chipsets.

I can take that to mean that you believe HDCP 2.2 is only in HDMI chipsets. I did not say that there were no HDMI chips with HDCP 2.2. I said the PS4 does HDCP 2.2 in the TEE which is similar to how PCs manage DRM security since they can't embed traces or don't have a HDMI port.

Adam, HDCP 2.2 is more flexible than you envision and is not limited to HDMI chips. It is used for/with Miracast, HDMI over LAN and DTCP-IP. The absolute best security with the least liability for a UHD Blu-ray Player is to HDCP 2.2 encrypt inside the TEE not the HDMI chip.

Because the PS4 has exposed pins on the HDMI chip it violates hardware DRM rules unless encryption takes place in the TEE before exiting to the HDMI chip. This was my first observation which I tied to the Custom Panasonic HDMI chip and Goto (Japanese hardware reviewer) who predicted the PS4 would have a custom HDMI port. HDMI 1.4 has all the timings needed by VR and every feature the PS4 is going to support except UHD blu-ray so a custom HDMI port must be tied to that. Another possibility is to protect 1080P media the same motherboard rules hiding traces to the HDMI chip are now needed and it would be cheaper and more secure to do HDCP 1.4 in the TEE than in the HDMI chip.

If the Media TEE is in the PS4 APU, the PCIe port from APU to Southbridge and lines from Southbridge to HDMI chip would have unencrypted media and PCs are not allowed to do this. Regardless of the Licence, this would not be allowed as DRM rules would treat the PS4 as a PC rather than an Embedded/Game Console.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Timing only, the speculation is that everything would be in place for 4K in PCs by Q1 2017. Sony announced earlier this year that they would have a stand alone Embedded UHD Player by Q1 (March at the latest) 2017.

Aug. 30, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- Sony Pictures Home Entertainment (SPHE) and Intel Corporation (INTC) today announced that ULTRA, SPHE's 4K movie streaming service, will debut on computers powered by 7th Gen Intel® Core&#8482; processors beginning Q1 in 2017.

Sony to Add Rental Option to Its 4K Movie Service, Expand Streaming to PCs

Why your home theater PC still can't stream 4K Ultra HD video
Netflix and Amazon offer 4K UHD video streams, but a noxious stew of hardware, software, and DRM issues prevents them being available on PCs.

In an attempt to keep their 4K content locked down, the studios demand all sorts of security measures that didn&#8217;t apply to lower-resolution formats. To play 4K content on a TV or an external monitor, for instance, both the playback device and the display must support HDCP 2.2, a form of copy protection for HDMI video output.

Compared to game consoles and other streaming boxes, general computing devices (such as Windows PCs) have even more stringent requirements, including hardware-based decryption for protected content. In essence, the hardware must create a secure environment for the entire video pipeline&#8212;from decryption to decoding to screen composition&#8212;to protect the content from software ripping.

Even with the right hardware support, the operating system must know how to manage those resources, and it must convey to the streaming service that the environment is secure. This is accomplished through a DRM license, which tends to be offered by the device or operating system. In Windows, for instance, Microsoft has a system called PlayReady 3.0 that meets all of the studios&#8217; requirements for 4K UHD playback. This system looks at the hardware to make sure all the necessary measures are in place, and it then gives the thumbs-up to the streaming app.

Streaming services like Netflix just won't bother sending down 4K content without that go-ahead, according to Rambhia. The service provider is ultimately responsible for upholding the studios&#8217; security requirements when offering 4K playback; failure to do so can result in fines and other penalties.

&#8220;If they [the service provider] can&#8217;t be sure that there&#8217;s a protected hardware path, or they can&#8217;t be sure that X-Y-Z will happen, typically they&#8217;re allowed to send SD content or 720p HD, but not 1080p HD, and certainly not 4K,&#8221; Rambhia says.

A lot of these moving parts are only now starting to come together. Microsoft, for instance, just enabled PlayReady 3.0 with the Windows 10 Anniversary Update. Nvidia&#8217;s Pascal-series GPUs (video cards in Nvidia's GTX 10-series and its Titan X) support hardware decryption of protected 4K video along with HDCP 2.2 across the entire line.

&#8220;Over the next 12 months is when you&#8217;re going to start to see new PCs on the market that are capable of playing this content, because everything&#8217;s aligned&#8212;the software and the hardware&#8221; Frost says.

Still, a handful of hurdles remain before 4K playback becomes commonplace.

Playstation meeting may not announce UHD Blu-ray support in any console including the NEO, or if they do, that it's coming Q1 2017.

 

[Adam Tyner]

The funny thing about trying to research this is how often your posts come up. A search for tee firmware "hdcp 2.2" returns 2,810 results. After excluding posts by you, that number drops to 2,170.

I was under the impression that you thought HDCP 2.2 could only be implemented in the TEE, having seen many posts like:

HDCP 2.2 is now a industry standard for DTCP-IP, Miracast Wifi streamed video, HDMI HDCP and more. It relies on ARM TEE which is also the accepted industry standard that is going to replace Cable Cards.

It applies to the coming Xbox 360, PS4, PS3, XB1 and multiple consumer products.

I can't find a credible source making the same claims about the launch Xbox One and PS4 (or similar devices) being able to support HDCP 2.2 with a firmware update. Given your track record thus far in this thread, I'm sure you'll understand why I don't just take you at your word.

Assuming Stacey Spears was on the mark about a software decoder being developed to support Netflix UHD on the launch Xbox One (and I have no reason to doubt him), it would stand to reason that HDCP 2.2 would have to be implemented somehow.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It's a difficult thing to research because virtually every result on Google is from you on various message boards.

I was under the impression that you thought HDCP 2.2 could only be implemented in the TEE, having seen many posts like:



I can't find a credible source making the same claims about the launch Xbox One and PS4 (or similar devices) being able to support HDCP 2.2 with a firmware update. Given your track record thus far in this thread, I'm sure you'll understand why I don't just take you at your word.

Assuming Stacey Spears was on the mark about a software decoder being developed to support Netflix UHD on the launch Xbox One (and I have no reason to doubt him), it would stand to reason that HDCP 2.2 would have to be implemented somehow.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

You might be using the wrong key words. Whitepapers from Microsoft (Playready), Leaked Panasonic and Sony PDFs and BDA papers have the same information and are available. I appear to be one of a few who are trying to summarize these papers in blogs.

HDCP 2.2 MUST be in a TEE...a TEE can be inside a HDMI chip. I've inadvertently given the impression that TEE means ARM Trustzone when it's just a Trusted Execution environment and can be implemented in many ways. I've concentrated on the AMD and PS4 design which has a ARM Trustzone TEE.

There are certain rules the BDA and content owners require. The Codec must be in or controlled by the TEE CPU. This includes a trusted boot of the TEE OS and protection for memory and threads running in the TEE. If the XB1 memory controllers are controllable by the ARM Trustzone CPU and the Jaguar CPU and GCN GPU in the XB1 have protected modes to run secure code then they can be used for a Codec. I don't think that is likely.

There is or will be a HDCP 2.2 routine running in the XB1 and PS4 ARM TEE for Miracast and Vidipath 1080P media at a minimum. HDMI 2 over LAN to 4K TVs that support it is possible even without a HDMI 2 port in the console. HEVC profile 10 for UHD media is still needed and of course a UHD drive which according to Penello just needed a different lens and firmware update.

A UHD blu-ray drive should cost the same as a HD blu-ray drive and HDMI 2 can be cheaper to implement than a HDMI 1.4 chip provided you have a Trustzone TEE and are already planning to support HDCP 2.2. HEVC cost to implement is the issue and with hardware accelerators available 2014 in AMD GCN 1.2 dGPUs, anything from 2015 and later should be able to support all UHD media at no additional cost. 2013 consoles without accelerators would cost more but still viable if you plan to use UHD to sell other services or hardware.

 

[Colbert]

Why we still discussing this?

The leaked PS4 Slim (as far as the leaks say) doesn't have UHD Bluray and 4K features and Xbox One S needed updated hardware parts to support UHD BluRay (HDM 2.0 & HDCP) and 4K.

Isn't this contracting the topic of this thread?

 

[Stinkles]

Why we still discussing this?

The leaked PS4 Slim (as far as the leaks say) doesn't have UHD Bluray and 4K features and Xbox One S needed updated hardware parts to support UHD BluRay (HDM 2.0 & HDCP) and 4K.

Isn't this contracting the topic of this thread?

I'd argue that the HDR/4K Xbox S might have caught Sony off guard, and that in part is why it was never officially revealed their slim with the expected pomp and circumstance (pure, creamy and potentially nonsensical speculation on my part) HOWEVER - were Jeff's initial theory correct, you can be DAMNED SURE Sony would have "unlocked" the magical HDR/4K Blu Ray functionality already.

 

[Freshmaker]

Did Jeff predict the PS4K? Seems like he should have given how actually real it is.

Only if it's actually a firmware update.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'd argue that the HDR/4K Xbox S might have caught Sony off guard, and that in part is why it was never officially revealed their slim with the expected pomp and circumstance (pure, creamy and potentially nonsensical speculation on my part) HOWEVER - were Jeff's initial theory correct, you can be DAMNED SURE Sony would have "unlocked" the magical HDR/4K Blu Ray functionality already.

They were probably waiting for Sept 7th to tell everybody they were putting out a firmware update hidden in the 4.00 update to unlock the UHD blu ray capabilities hidden in the hardware from 2013.

 

[Stinkles]

They were probably waiting for Sept 7th to tell everybody they were putting out a firmware update hidden in the 4.00 update to unlock the UHD blu ray capabilities hidden in the hardware from 2013.

If that happened the sheer glorious scale of redemption would cause everyone to experience the Maxxell ad in real life.

 

[show me your skeleton]

i feel the mods keep this thread open to test us.

 

[ReBurn]

i feel the mods keep this thread open to test us.

Some people just can't resist.

Honestly though, even if the 2013 hardware were capable of supporting 4K from a technical perspective I doubt the companies would enable it on those models. They need buzzwords to push the new revisions and try to get people to buy the latest iteration. So the point seems a bit moot. We wouldn't see it on a pre-2016 model even if it were possible.

 

[Kyoufu]

Some people just can't resist.

Honestly though, even if the 2013 hardware were capable of supporting 4K from a technical perspective I doubt the companies would enable it on those models. They need buzzwords to push the new revisions and try to get people to buy the latest iteration. So the point seems a bit moot. We wouldn't see it on a pre-2016 model even if it were possible.

4K specification standards have rapidly jumped since PS4's inception. There's no chance of a firmware update allowing current PS4s that don't have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 support to be played on 4K TVs today. Jeff doesn't seem to understand that.

 

[FyreWulff]

Some people just can't resist.

Honestly though, even if the 2013 hardware were capable of supporting 4K from a technical perspective I doubt the companies would enable it on those models. They need buzzwords to push the new revisions and try to get people to buy the latest iteration. So the point seems a bit moot. We wouldn't see it on a pre-2016 model even if it were possible.

As I pointed out before, they literally cannot. You might as well treat HDMI 2 and what the launch One and PS4 have as different ports with the same form factor.

It's similar (to a point) to the difference between composite and component. Same connector, but you needed the hardware on both sides to push 1080p through it. There was no way to retroactively push 1080p through the composite because the hardware behind t he ports needs to be there.

 

[cakely]

Isn't this contracting the topic of this thread?

Reality contradicts the topic of this thread.

At this point this thread exists only as a warning to others.

 

[playXray]

I can't believe this thread is still going; it always brings a smile to my face when I see it pop up on the front page of NeoGAF from time to time.

 

[emeadows11]

If for some reason you need give yourself a headache come to this thread.

 

[Gestault]

i feel the mods keep this thread open to test us.

It's more punishment than anything else. I'm sorry Evilore, all right?

 

[inpHilltr8r]

thread is awesome, haters begone

 

[Lady Gaia]

thread is awesome, haters begone

... but is it an awesome study in technology, or psychology?

 

[dlbeast]

Don't want to mislead you as there is no indication it's singular or plural and a Microsoft VP said in 2013 that the XB1 has the hardware to play UHD Blu-ray and June of 2015 the XB1 got HEVC profile 10 which is the Codec that is used by UHD Blu-ray.

Ito of Sony denied the PS4 would support UHD Blu-ray and said the PS4's blu-ray player can't read three layers but all blu-ray players can read 3 or more layers.

Edit: The BDA (Association that Licences Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray) lists Game Consoles. Sony has a licence for a PC UHD Blu-ray player and a licence for a UHD Movie Player/Game Console/Test player. Microsoft despite the strong evidence above has no licence for a UHD Blu-ray player.

I wonder if the Neo will have a comma?

 

[CosmicQueso]

I wonder if the Neo will have a comma?

You owe me a new shirt. I just shot my beverage out my nose all over it.