AquaWateria
Member
Its going to live up to my hype.
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Polygon: "After a Half-Hour with The Last Guardian, I'm Concerned"
- Thread starter Trojan
- Start date
Its going to live up to my hype.
This was a different person though
The person playing DOOM in that video was not Phil Koller, so I'm not sure why you say that.
It's like people think "Polygon" is one person.
Dangansona
Member
This thread was made for you!
I'm aware that Polygon is more than one person. Polygon's branding was on that video. They chose to release it.
One would hope that reviews have a standard to compare something to, right? So to review music, you have to have listened to music before. You'd hope that you would know how music is made, too. And then you'd have to take into account the history of the musician or the band into context.
I think this is where we both disagree, then. I think you can define what objectively bad is when you know what objectively good is. I think you simply don't feel comfortable defining something like a game as being objectively good where I can safely say that I know some games are good or bad by looking at what they're trying to achieve.
GlamFM
Banned
Pretty sure he was playing with one hand while managing the chat with the other.
But nothing will stop this defense force I guess and even the entirely unrelated Doom video serves as a great argument for your cause.
All I see is twelve pages of people who have never ever touched the game believing that they can invalidate the opinion of someone who has actually played it.
And honestly, that's pretty sad.
At least wait until you were hands on before calling out someone for his perfectly valid opinion.
Alex Stroud
Banned
Hits just keep on coming for Sony, aren't they?
I am not optimistic regarding TLG, but I find it amusing that Polygon would criticize mechanics. Also amusing is "playing with one hand while managing the chat with the other". Suuuuuuuuuuuure.
GlamFM
Banned
He was live streaming and chatting, yes.
Okay? What does releasing a video of someone sucking at DOOM have to do with Phil Kollar's impressions of The Last Guardian?
Is playing like ICO and SOTC on PS4 a good thing though? If Uncharted 4 played like Jak and Daxter would people still like it?
its funny that people point that out but then are treating this persons impressions as total proof of the game being good or bad alone. the hypocrisy is insane lol.
All I know is that unless you have played it you can not agree or disagree with someones opinion on a game. I've never played a Team Ico game but I've heard 80% good things about them especially SotC. A few things caught my attention.
1. The whole controls thing. It's ok for Ico to have trash controls, it was their first game. All you would ask for is hey could you guys make the controls a bit better. For SotC to have bad controls is like ok well you guys had 4 years but hey whatever. Now for TLG to again have poor controls, it becomes a do better type of discussion. Even if this game wasn't in active development for 10 years, they've had more than enough time to adjust the controls as much as possible. This is not the PS2 era of games anymore, so many things have evolved. That leads to my second thought....
2. Feels like a PS2 game. No damn game in 2016 should feel like a game made in 2002-2005. That literally means they messed up. DMC is similar to DMC4 but in no way do they feel the same. Too many things have advanced.
All I can say is I hope this game knocks people's socks off but let's not be too critical in either direction. For those that want it to be good, you can't just completely dismiss somebodies opinion and essentially trash them on a game you haven't played yet and what could possibly be legit criticism. For those with the "10 years it better be good" well let me tell you something... shit happens. I way prefer this game actually come out then be shelved. Just because it has been in development for a long time doesn't mean it has any obligation to be good to everyone or it's a failure. So yeah...
Keep your expectations in check folks. If you do that you'll be surprised more often and disappointed less.
1. The whole controls thing. It's ok for Ico to have trash controls, it was their first game. All you would ask for is hey could you guys make the controls a bit better. For SotC to have bad controls is like ok well you guys had 4 years but hey whatever. Now for TLG to again have poor controls, it becomes a do better type of discussion. Even if this game wasn't in active development for 10 years, they've had more than enough time to adjust the controls as much as possible. This is not the PS2 era of games anymore, so many things have evolved. That leads to my second thought....
2. Feels like a PS2 game. No damn game in 2016 should feel like a game made in 2002-2005. That literally means they messed up. DMC is similar to DMC4 but in no way do they feel the same. Too many things have advanced.
All I can say is I hope this game knocks people's socks off but let's not be too critical in either direction. For those that want it to be good, you can't just completely dismiss somebodies opinion and essentially trash them on a game you haven't played yet and what could possibly be legit criticism. For those with the "10 years it better be good" well let me tell you something... shit happens. I way prefer this game actually come out then be shelved. Just because it has been in development for a long time doesn't mean it has any obligation to be good to everyone or it's a failure. So yeah...
Keep your expectations in check folks. If you do that you'll be surprised more often and disappointed less.
k
This is the last thing I'll say because I'm repeating myself - I don't trust Polygon to comment on game mechanics.
Ico was released 15 years ago, do you really think it would be smart to bet only on those people that now probably have a family and/or less interest/time to play games? Games, even "artistic" ones, are made to make money, especially if they have been in development for years.
Rose tinted glasses that many ps2 owners have.
I never had a ps2 but some years ago(not now) i played some ps2 hd remasters on ps3(ico collection, gow1 and some other) and despite the improvements imo they all felt old and clunky(that doesn't mean bad though), that "ps2" feel didn't help them at all.
I'm not saying that TLG is bad game, i didn't even try it, i'm just saying that you should be open to the possibility that not everyone will like the "ps2" feel, not everyone had a ps2.
Okami Haundo
Member
No...just no. One video does not define an entire outlet.
Ueda games are never ever greenlit expecting profit.
Their actual review of DOOM had nothing but good things to say about the game's combat mechanics.
Sanctuary
Member
This news isn't surprising at all, considering it started development in 2007, and has been stuck in development hell for nearly a decade.
There are plenty of "throwback" games that don't have awful controls. The controls were the main reason I could never fully appreciate Shadow of the Colossus either. They were simply terrible.
There are plenty of "throwback" games that don't have awful controls. The controls were the main reason I could never fully appreciate Shadow of the Colossus either. They were simply terrible.
So they are made for charity?
You shouldn't trust every single word that developers, executives or pr say.
I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I'm saying as I don't care about their review. The video speaks for itself.
This is a pretty shitty way to discount someones opinion. If he thinks ico is better than anything else, then he just does. There's not anything more to it than that.
My god again it has not been in active dev since 2007. This should be common knowledge by now.
Yes, they are art projects w/out the expectation to make profit. This is fact.
It's not worth the effort of typing this. You'll need to pin it to the top of every thread page relating to the game on gaf ... and then people will still ignore it.
Nah, I'm sure Sony expects this to sell 5+ million.
I understand not taking a particular criticism/critic at face value, but many of the previews from this same build mention those shortcomings. That doesn't mean "throw away this trash game," but it sounds like a totally valid concern for the final product.
So what kind of controls would be "objectively good" for a game where you're trying to portray young, awkward, inexperienced child navigating a dangerous environment with a giant companion that has a mind of its own? Walk us through it.
Yea looking at my post history I look like a madman. I should probably stop but it bugs me so much.
Sanctuary
Member
Reread what you just quoted...
I didn't discount his opinion, in fact i didn't say that ico is a bad game, i said nothing about the quality of the games themselves except that feel old.
If you say so.
I mean, ICO and SotC aren't perfect games. I love them both, but they aren't perfect; SotC had one really atrocious framerate if I recall; didn't care so much then, but after becoming accustomed to *at least* a semi-consistent 30 fps, it would bother me now. So I can't really get all upset about the notion that for someone else weighty or seemingly unresponsive controls is something that inspires concern.
I mean the games been delayed ad nauseum, even that should be cause for concern.
Either way though, as others have said, there should also be an expectation in place for what this game will be like, and SotC and ICO form that expectation. So if you liked both of those, there's a real, real good chance in my estimation that TLG will be liked as well, even if it manages to have the worst controls in any video game ever.
But, you know, this is a game that in the current climate I don't imagine will be getting all 10s or something. Critics can't distance the product from the development period / generated hype (not that I blame them, since it's kind of a human response)
I mean the games been delayed ad nauseum, even that should be cause for concern.
Either way though, as others have said, there should also be an expectation in place for what this game will be like, and SotC and ICO form that expectation. So if you liked both of those, there's a real, real good chance in my estimation that TLG will be liked as well, even if it manages to have the worst controls in any video game ever.
But, you know, this is a game that in the current climate I don't imagine will be getting all 10s or something. Critics can't distance the product from the development period / generated hype (not that I blame them, since it's kind of a human response)
GlamFM
Banned
Cool. It's been in development around 2007 for a good while until someone picked up the scraps recently and stitched together what was there for cheap.
It's still a 2007 game in its soul. With all the jank that comes with that.
Does not really make a difference.
Replace "million" with "thousand" and you'd be right on the money. Sony doesn't expect shit saleswise when it comes to TLG.
Even their PR/sales people know this deep down.
Fact based on what?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Lets talk about this "good" or "bad" controls thing for a second, because its not really true. There are no such things as universally, objectively good or bad game design. Its just rules and standards we've accepted over time. There are infinite examples in art, music, movies, comics, books, etc that break from traditional standards because they want to create a specific effect, a specific experience for the consumer. And not everybody is gonna like Wreckmeister Harmonies or the Sex Pistols or Flex Mentallo, they might they all suck, but a lot of people love them. They go on the wavelength of the experience they were trying to put forth and they think its great. Nobody's right or wrong here, its just honest statements about their subjective experience.
Ueda is trying to make a very specific experience. He's using the tools of game design to put you in the shoes of this clumsy kid who isn't the master of the world like every other third person mainstream game. He's not great at combat, he doesnt run with perfect accuracy, he doesnt have those perfect Nathan Drake leaps and forgiving controls. Everything this boy does is a struggle, and the controls and camera are the way they are because he wants to give you that interactive experience. He wants you to embody this adventure. And he wants you to do it with a very realistic AI of an pet animal of sorts. A pet that sometimes obeys and sometimes doesn't, who sometimes is immediately helpful and sometimes you gotta pry him to do things your way.
Now you may not like that. You can write a review and talk about what you liked or didn't like, you can go into detail, you can give a 6/10 score, and there ya go. That's your opinion. That is your subjective experience with the game, based on your personal biases and what you were looking for in the game.
But someone else might play it, get on the same wavelength as Ueda and embrace, possibly love the controls and camera and the AI. They think this kind of form matching function is brilliant, and increasingly rare in a mostly safe homogeneous AAA market space. They love the game and give it a 9/10. And that's their opinion. That is their subjective experience with the game, based on their personal biases and what they were looking for in the game.
And you can discuss it, you can argue about it, but don't pretend for one second that the controls are universally bad is some platform you can stand on. They're different from traditional standards, but so is a lot of weird, divisive art and entertainment products. Just be honest with yourself when you're experiencing this thing, that's all.
Ueda is trying to make a very specific experience. He's using the tools of game design to put you in the shoes of this clumsy kid who isn't the master of the world like every other third person mainstream game. He's not great at combat, he doesnt run with perfect accuracy, he doesnt have those perfect Nathan Drake leaps and forgiving controls. Everything this boy does is a struggle, and the controls and camera are the way they are because he wants to give you that interactive experience. He wants you to embody this adventure. And he wants you to do it with a very realistic AI of an pet animal of sorts. A pet that sometimes obeys and sometimes doesn't, who sometimes is immediately helpful and sometimes you gotta pry him to do things your way.
Now you may not like that. You can write a review and talk about what you liked or didn't like, you can go into detail, you can give a 6/10 score, and there ya go. That's your opinion. That is your subjective experience with the game, based on your personal biases and what you were looking for in the game.
But someone else might play it, get on the same wavelength as Ueda and embrace, possibly love the controls and camera and the AI. They think this kind of form matching function is brilliant, and increasingly rare in a mostly safe homogeneous AAA market space. They love the game and give it a 9/10. And that's their opinion. That is their subjective experience with the game, based on their personal biases and what they were looking for in the game.
And you can discuss it, you can argue about it, but don't pretend for one second that the controls are universally bad is some platform you can stand on. They're different from traditional standards, but so is a lot of weird, divisive art and entertainment products. Just be honest with yourself when you're experiencing this thing, that's all.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Yes it does. What sounds worse actively developing a game for 10 years or shelving a game for a while and picking it back up when the tech is there to make it run well.
What a surprise!
Did you read that i also tried gow1 and others? the "oldness" Isn't just in the controls, it's in the overall game, because the way to do games in the ps2 era was different than now.
In any case if some people want to think that ps2 feel in 2016 is a good thing then good for them, i'm out.
You just said you don't trust anything someone from Polygon says about game mechanics.
The video "speaks for itself" by demonstrating that the person playing DOOM in the video is very bad at DOOM. Which is completely irrelevant to what other people write for the site.
GlamFM
Banned
Nah, I believe it's more a case of Sony finally having enough and sending their guy over to get this nightmare out of the door.
Agreed, it seems like this is a common opinion.
I said I didn't trust them, I didn't say that they were always wrong. I don't understand how anyone can watch that video and feel otherwise.
Clay Davis sheeeit
I don't think you can just explain away bad cameras like that. A camera is functional or it is trash.
Well, for one, you'd have to believe that this is the intended design by the creator. They'd have to communicate that to the player throughout the game. That would also mean that the user also somehow gets used to those controls and that they can be mastered ; they shouldn't be a problem later in the game.
I haven't played the game though, kaching, so I can't comment on how it actually plays. I was just arguing that I believe games can have objectively good and bad controls.
I loved SOTC and ICO, but if they could remake those games with a better camera system and tighter control, I do believe they'd be better games from it... If that makes sense?
More_Badass
Member
Well said. The change to holding to climb and grip seems tied to that desire to link player and character through gameplay and controls as well
Holding to climb and the grip meter was a gameplay mechanic intrinsically linked with the visuals and tone of fighting those massive beings in SoTC. It's a life and death struggle, you're clinging on for dear life as they try to fling you off.
Holding down the button is Wander desperately holding onto fur and stone as the colossi twist and flail
But here, the massive beast is your friend, that wants to help and protect you, not wildly shake you off. You don't need to hold on for survival. You can relax while you're on Trico.
Not needing to hold down the button is the boy not needing to react with desperation around Trico.
It's as much a narrative-driven change as it is a control scheme one