I had no idea.
True, given the mostly male playable characters. The exception would be Portrait of Ruin, that has a playable female character, but also only succubi.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sinister Seductress - Tropes vs Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
True, given the mostly male playable characters. The exception would be Portrait of Ruin, that has a playable female character, but also only succubi.
TheMoon
Member
this feels like a bad internet meme ...
in fact, I made the pun myself multiple times ...did not know it was actually based on a thing lol
Ordinaryundone
Member
To be fair all the sin demons in the game always look the same no matter who they are appearing to or what the are possessing. Greed, Pride, Sloth, etc. That's just what they look like. I feel this is probably more due to the game's limited size and desire for a consistent art style. In addition its Warhammer influences, where Lust Demons are filling the roll of the Daemonettes from that setting. Though they could have stood to be less aggressively feminine, or at least more (grossly) androgynous like the Daemonette counterpart.
Rightttt, would be apt to include it
DarknessTear
Banned
Does SMT Nocturne count
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yeah that was strange. And then instead of fixing it they just removed them completely from DA:I lol.
I think it still would've been questionable but instead of removing them altogether they should've just added male desire demons.
I'll count it, even if the nature of most SMT monsters is art above substance.
One additional point on this might be that negative male sexuality and negative female sexuality have vastly different implications in fiction. Yes, a male character can be shown being using his powers of seduction in a negative way, but at least in western mainstream media this is usually not shown in a straightforward way.
Meanwhile, female sexuality used in a negative way is raw. It's shown by tits and ass and everything in between and above.
Partially, I believe, because cultural hangups about rape mean that explicitly aggressive female sexuality can be shown without being "rapey", while explicitly aggressive male sexuality is rapey by definition.
And this brought to my head memories of an old anime called "Urotsukidoji" (thought about including images, but those would definitely be NSFW). The demons there are the closest I can think of to those female-based monsters in the video.
Meanwhile, female sexuality used in a negative way is raw. It's shown by tits and ass and everything in between and above.
Partially, I believe, because cultural hangups about rape mean that explicitly aggressive female sexuality can be shown without being "rapey", while explicitly aggressive male sexuality is rapey by definition.
And this brought to my head memories of an old anime called "Urotsukidoji" (thought about including images, but those would definitely be NSFW). The demons there are the closest I can think of to those female-based monsters in the video.
Aizo
Banned
Midori freaked me out. I've read countless Horror comics in Japan, and eroguro is just not something I can deal with. It really is that equation mentioned in the video, although, as you stated, it's not necessarily about women.
Well this is a series on games, so how the film industry tackles is of less use other than to point to it and say "Hey games, movies got their act together. You should too" - It doesn't provide much of an argument.
And I would say it's at best, even for how non-boss female antagonists are portrayed. Lots of them will wear revealing clothing, as a means to seduce the characters and then upon defeat, when showing up later, never have changed clothing.
DarknessTear
Banned
I'll also add that SMT has had at least one grotesque gendered monster (Mara) on top of having an Incubus. Even though the Incubus isn't exactly SEXY. He might be when he's doing his job. I don't know.
I do not agree with some of the points she made (mostly about using seduction as a weapon, I find this a viable and not insulting thing but what do I know, I'm male.), but overall I think it was an interesting video.
I do not agree with some of the points she made (mostly about using seduction as a weapon, I find this a viable and not insulting thing but what do I know, I'm male.), but overall I think it was an interesting video.
There's certainly something to that, in this society where when a woman rapes a 14-year-old boy, the grand majority of outcry is "Nice...." rather than outrage that a woman would prey upon a child. The idea of the scenario has been considered more of a joke than a problem in almost ever instance of it happening, which is a serious fucking problem.
Orakio Rob
Member
Another excellent video. And man, that bit about Pythagoras was really funny ^_^
Not completely- Imshael in DA:I was a desire demon even though he kept calling himself a "choice spirit".
Cow Mengde
Banned
And with bugs crawling out of his penis.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Like I said, the overwhelming majority of story-driven games have male protagonists, so obviously the overwhelming majority of seductive villains are going to be women. That's a problem in and of itself, of course.
I'm not quote sure what your last paragraph is referring to, but I'll assume that by "non-boss antagonists, you mean generic baddies. Admittedly, there are definitely more sexy female fodder than male, but I think those examples are at this point largely outnumbered by non-sexualized female enemies. I mean, they're even in CoD now:
Enemy soldiers running around in bikinis are definitely starting to become a discredited trope. There's definitely improvement on this front.
It's definitely a problem. I remember a few years back there was a story where a woman beat up a burglar, tied him up in her basement and raped him for three days before the police found out. So of course Leno/Letterman/Kimmel spent the next week joking about how "I'D LIKE TO ROB HER TOO AMIRITE?"
I think it's something to do with multiple spider species being renowned for the male getting eaten by the female after sex, (and, alongside lots of creatures, the females are bigger and live longer) so it kinda get used as a metaphor for female sex+danger, or attraction resulting in death.
Plus Shelob.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Neoriceisgood
Member
They combine the sexiest part of the human female with the sexiest part of spiders, best of both worlds really.
Demon babies comming out of nipples?
The boss of one of the end game regions is a male desire demon. Though he prefers "choice spirit".
edit: and now I notice someone else has mentioned this
was there? I Just saw a clip on youtube of the fight i must have missed that. I only saw tongues coming out of the nipples not babies.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It still exists but it's borderline non existent in gaming especially in comparison to succubi. Just like male equivalent games to that DOA beach game.
Well that's not any better...
Crankshaft
Member
I watched the whole video and I think someone missed the point of the ancient folklore tales. It's not that women are evil for their sexuality, its more of a tale for men to overcome their own weakness of desire. "Men hearing the songs of Sirens and then crash the boat".
That doesn't mean, "women are evil". That means married men should not give into desire and ruin their marriage\life with another woman.
Women are not the downfall of men. Men fall prey to their own weakness for women. I feel like the whole basis of this video comes from a misinterpretation.
Also, sexy women turning into monsterous beasts also comes from nature. Angler fish lure prey in with light. These beasts lure men in with sex. That's also not "women are evil". That is just someone incorporating nature into a fantasy setting.
That doesn't mean, "women are evil". That means married men should not give into desire and ruin their marriage\life with another woman.
Women are not the downfall of men. Men fall prey to their own weakness for women. I feel like the whole basis of this video comes from a misinterpretation.
Also, sexy women turning into monsterous beasts also comes from nature. Angler fish lure prey in with light. These beasts lure men in with sex. That's also not "women are evil". That is just someone incorporating nature into a fantasy setting.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
I'm going to need more evidence that Pythagoras was "a total misogynist" other than a quote from a book ascribed to a man speaking in ancient Ionian dialect, 2500 years ago, who has his own set of divination myths including during a time when mythology and history were interwoven.
Yeah, I think you're right that it's much more a case of an antagonist preying on a protagonist's weaknesses, and those weaknesses including sexual desire, than it being a case portraying female sexuality as evil.
One idea reinforces the other. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Killer Queen
Banned
"Man on Neogaf bitten on penis by woman and spider"
Neoriceisgood
Member
You ever seen that "my turtle bit my dick" thread? That was great.
I'm pretty sure the people who came up with harpies and sirens hadn't the slightest of clues how an Angler fish hunts.
What a weird example.
Usually when animals immitate in nature they use a resource like light, food or a disguise to fool others, not sexuality.
The only examples I know of organisms using sexuality to "trick" others is when they literally benefit from the act of intercourse;
e.g. numerous orchids who trick insects into straight up fucking them so that there's a higher chance of pollination:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13642-orchids-sexual-deception-triggers-ejaculation.html
Aside from the ancient greeks knowing jack shit about biology, I actually don't know a single species that uses "looks like mate" to draw in prey to consume.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
While I understand what you are saying and implying, this isn't a good argument since (outside of dolphins) humans are basically the only species that has sex for pleasure. The whole "light, food, disguise" (especially that last one) apply to the use of sexuality or rather the ideas of sexuality as want or as desire rather than biological need. Those tales of sex used, as I see it (especially with things like Sirens and even mermaids), are more inditements of how weak and pathetic male minds are to sex and sexuality. It's more or less a tale of warnings: "don't get too much in your head, ya damn pervert" or some such.
Kaffeemann
Banned
Here's on thing we all can agree on:
More male video game characters should use their penises as deadly weapons.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I was just pointing out that the angler fish example didn't feel particularly comparable.
My post is literally: "There's a clear difference"
to which you reply: "sure, but you're forgetting there's a clear difference".
So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
I have no idea what you're saying here btw.
Red Liquorice
Member
Again, I can't find fault with her argument. Another good video with points well made.
I'm surprised Quelaag slid under the radar of sexy/gross spider women!
I'm surprised Quelaag slid under the radar of sexy/gross spider women!
Their removal is more of a symptom of DAI's complete aversion to engaging side quests (desire demons aren't really going to show up without the context of a desire plot) and the only desire demons mentioned or shown up are male.
Game developers being uncreative. It's the demon version of this:
Great OGLAF on that
VERY VERY VERY NSFW
Final NSFW warning /www.oglaf.com/dimorphism
meltingparappa
Member
EXCUUUUUUUUSE U.
I know the video began with a quote from Doom about sexy gross monsters, but there's a gentleman's rule to not kinkshame one another in the penis spiderbite threads.
I'll trust we will all do the same here. tytytyyty
Honestly, I stopped watching her videos for two reasons: 1) she called Adam and Eve a "myth". I can respect that she's an atheist or at least non-Christian, but no matter what point one is trying to make, one can surely do it without attacking another's religion or personal beliefs. She could have called it a "story" and it wouldn't have turned me off at all.
And 2) because she tried to argue that FemShep was somehow not equal to Shepard. I've never played the Mass Effect games, but I've seen my brother play them multiple times (both as a male and female), and it's my understanding that FemShep and Shepard are the exact same person, with gender being the only difference. If Anita is trying to argue for equality, then I don't understand what could be more equal than having gender be the only real difference between a male and female character.
And 2) because she tried to argue that FemShep was somehow not equal to Shepard. I've never played the Mass Effect games, but I've seen my brother play them multiple times (both as a male and female), and it's my understanding that FemShep and Shepard are the exact same person, with gender being the only difference. If Anita is trying to argue for equality, then I don't understand what could be more equal than having gender be the only real difference between a male and female character.
Probably coming from the notion of the black widow (the concept, not the Marvel character) being considered as really terrifying/appealing from a horror angle.
The "lure you in, then ahhhhh freaky spider legs you can't escape" imagery. And yeah, it's extremely easy to see this as having roots in misogynistic views of relationships. But in fairness, spiders are fucking creepy.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Calling it a myth isn't inaccurate though. It's Judeo-Christian mythology. Calling it what it is doesn't really make any statement on whether or not it's true.
Garrett Hawke
Member
1) as the above poster said it is mythology. you can believe in it but it falls under the same category as other religions.
2) in mass effect 2 (I think) there is a dialogue moment where shepard is confronted by either ashley or kaidan if they romanced them from the first game and accused of cheating. in the first game they were both heterosexual options, so femshep will only be confronted by kaidan and mshep will only be confronted by ashley.
however: mshep can call ashley out on her bullshit and she will apologise. femshep doesn't get that option with kaidan, and that dialogue options is replaced with an option for FEMSHEP to apologise.
The lady death reference there is great.
The Ms. Male Character episode was more about how that becomes problematic when male version of the player character is consistently put forth as the default, leading to the female version being implicitly presented as a variant of the male character. For Mass Effect, it was in the way that promotional materials, with the exception of the reverse cover and a web-only trailer for ME3, always showed the default male Shepard, and even the games defaulted to the male Shepard if you picked the option to skip the character creation. She even pointed out how the common use of the nickname "FemShep" is an indicator of this. Compare/contrast with Splatoon, where it's the Inkling Girl that's presented as the default in the way that she's most prominent in promotional material and in the way that the selection starts on her when you start the game for the first time, but not remotely to the same degree as Mass Effect, because they're always careful to feature the Inkling Boy alongside her in promotion, crossover appearances, etc.