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Will Final Fantasy VII's Re-introduction (Remake) Be Praised For Diversity)?

ViolentP

Member
Who the fuck cares if some fans will upset that a black man isn't reduced to using ebonics and women aren't reduced to waifu tropes? It's 2016 ffs.

You should care. Those that defend keeping Barrett as he was could be doing so with the motivation of preserving the original content as closely as possible. Fact is, they have their own valid point. Not everyone is trying to keep minorities down and not everything has to be an argument for equality. Barrett was a caricature, yes. But he is also one of the most memorable characters in gaming. There is reason for that.
 

Skilletor

Member
I see, I played it long ago, I probably didn't give proper attention to that dialogue.

I understand most people critics about all this stuff, but, without playing it again to see by myself how they develop the characters and situations I find it hard to point at many of these stuff and judge if they were sending a bad message or just telling a dark story.

Well, I don't think this was a "bad message" per say. I mean, obviously it's awful, but Hojo is a mad scientist. It makes sense for the character.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
It's probably the most diverse JRPG, which means nothing.

Suikoden series? When you have 108 possible party members you pretty much have to be diverse to make them stand out enough from one another.

You know square is literally incapable of making a decent male or female these days

What was wrong with the I Am Setsuna characters?
 

ZenTzen

Member
I see, I played it long ago, I probably didn't give proper attention to that dialogue.

I understand most people critics about all this stuff, but, without playing it again to see by myself how they develop the characters and situations I find it hard to point at many of these stuff and judge if they were sending a bad message or just telling a dark story.

its not really a bad message, just evil scientist doing evil scientist things, besides, not like red was going to do anything and he promptly attacked hojo as soon as he was free
 

sensui-tomo

Member
You should care. Those that defend keeping Barrett as he was could be doing so with the motivation of preserving the original content as closely as possible. Fact is, they have their own valid point. Not everyone is trying to keep minorities down and not everything has to be an argument for equality. Barrett was a caricature, yes. But he is also one of the most memorable characters in gaming. There is reason for that.
Id rather have original dev intended Barrett over Mr t Barrett, the times were wrong back then, just like that blackfaced character from p1. Plus it's a remake not a remaster. Changes are/were going to happen.
 

saturnine

Member
I hate to break it to you man, but they already changed him based on his dialogue in the trailer.

It's not like he'll be completely changed, but his dialogue definitely won't be total garbage anymore which is a total plus for everyone.

He sounds so lethargic in this trailer...

I wasn't exposed to Mr T Barret at the time thanks to the french translation not fucking up, but I understand perfectly why people would find that shit offensive.

I'd be fine with him no longer being an "angry black man", but he should still be an angry man, just one who happens to be black. His choleric outbursts are a huge part of his character for me, and they work really well with Cloud's smug nonchalance.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car
While the game may have many admirable qualities, I don't believe that anticipating a praiseworthy attention to diversity is a reasonable expectation to have.

The OP seems like a reach.

I'm not shitting on the original game, but nothing about it screams "diversity," nor has the limited press info about the remake suggested that it will be radically different in this respect.

I mean, lots of us like games that aren't as diverse as we'd like. It's a reality in the industry. As unfortunate as that situation is (IMO), I think it's good to be honest with ourselves about those games, about what they are and aren't.

I don't see it
 

ViolentP

Member
Id rather have original dev intended Barrett over Mr t Barrett, the times were wrong back then, just like that blackfaced character from p1. Plus it's a remake not a remaster. Changes are/were going to happen.

And I would as well. The difference between myself and others here is that I can understand that the problem is not being resolved, only moved over to another group. I stand by my opinions, but I don't think so highly of them that I completely disregard the others that may be affected by my proposed change.
 

Dremark

Banned
I'm not going to "try", that's legitimately what makes Barret Barret to me. I don't think I should have to apologize for feeling that way, that's how I grew to know Barret back in the day and he won't feel like the Barret I knew if he lacks his personality, even if he keeps the character development. Whether or not this is the "wrong" version of Barret makes no difference to my memories of playing the original game.

I'm not asking you to apologize, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think it's an incredibly shallow aspect of his character to be hung up on especially since that's the thing that defines his character to you rather than his actual personality traits.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Hmmm...

I don't think eubonics itself is necessarily a problem. It's the way it is used and the sense that Barret is being essentialized. If, say, Barret's mining community spoke that way in general or there was some other community he was a part of that spoke that way...but Barret is pretty much the lone black man who talks that way because...he's black? That presents eubonics as not a cultural thing but as a strange perversion of language a black person, without a cultural context, will just do. It is essential to being black to speak that way, rather than a product of a certain black community. This is the problematic idea.

I hope this is what people mean when they complain about eubonics, because it is a perfectly fine vernacular English.

...

Same thing with calling out Tifa's breasts. Some women have huge breasts, that's not a problem in itself. Many men find huge breasts sexy, also not a problem. Insofar as she is reduced to this sexiness, there is a problem. Her outfit is not blatantly ridiculous. She has as much of an internal life as most of the characters, but there are some FMV sequences, which cross the line. Just pointing at her boobs and going that must be all there is to her because boobs is dumb and that's some of what is going on in here.
 

Skilletor

Member
The fact that some people think that Barret's defining characteristic is how he spoke and not that he fought for what he believed in, took in his best friend's daughter and raised her as her own, paid for schooling, was loyal to his friends, and cared more about the well-being of others over his own safety says a lot to me.

I mean...god damn.
 

Lutherian

Member
So we have racial stereotype Barret and titty mc tittersdaughter Tifa. Plus some white guys and girls. Yeah, I don't really think so.

At least there's a traitorous cat

I agree though tha Yuffie is awesome. Best FF7 girl

So we have racial stereotype Noctis who is "Insert Testuya Nomura DARK character emo Japanese cliché", and titty mc tittersdaughter Sindy. Plus some white guys and a blonde girl. Yeah, I don't really think so.

Noctis = Cloud from Advent Children, less alive than a mop.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You should care. Those that defend keeping Barrett as he was could be doing so with the motivation of preserving the original content as closely as possible. Fact is, they have their own valid point. Not everyone is trying to keep minorities down and not everything has to be an argument for equality. Barrett was a caricature, yes. But he is also one of the most memorable characters in gaming. There is reason for that.
But in this case the original content is A, not even the fucking original content considering it was a big localization change not actually true to the character, and B, those kinda people don't actually give two shits about the concept of preserving original content in media but just want their video game to be unchanged, (but are likely perfectly ok with the tons of other design changes).

So we have racial stereotype Noctis who is "Insert Testuya Nomura DARK character emo Japanese cliché", and titty mc tittersdaughter Sindy. Plus some white guys and a blonde girl. Yeah, I don't really think so.

Noctis = Cloud from Advent Children, less alive than a mop.
Nomura face doesn't even make sense in the context of Noctis as he seems to have more personality than a sad rag based on his body language and expressions, but it begs the question of why he looks like that. Also Noctis isn't a racial stereotype, unless we classify Nomura characters as their own race.
 

Dremark

Banned
I never thought any less of Barret because of the way he talked/acted, but I guess I can see why some would find it offensive. I don't see any problem with him being a bit more serious, but I'd like him to keep some of his boisterousness.

What I'm wondering about is whether Cait Sith will have that ridiculous Scottish accent... lol

I never viewed him as offensive tbh, it seemed like the whole thing was a play off Mr T. I'm not going to try an act like my viewpoint is right and others are wrong but I always viewed it as a misguided attempt to make the character stand out more.

I see, I played it long ago, I probably didn't give proper attention to that dialogue.

I understand most people critics about all this stuff, but, without playing it again to see by myself how they develop the characters and situations I find it hard to point at many of these stuff and judge if they were sending a bad message or just telling a dark story.


There's no bad message, Hojo was a bad person and tried to do a terrible thing. Having a character do something doesn't automatically communicate that what he's doing is right. Hojo was portrayed as one of the most despicable characters in the game because of his actions.

The only time I can really this this argument really making sense is if they portray it as something positive. If Hojo was a hero, had Red XIII rape Aeris and then the other characters talked about how great it was that he did that I'd agree there's a huge problem there.
 

ViolentP

Member
But in this case the original content is A, not even the fucking original content considering it was a big localization change not actually true to the character, and B, those kinda people don't actually give two shits about the concept of preserving original content in media but just want their video game to be unchanged, (but are likely perfectly ok with the tons of other design changes).

I respect your passion, but not your narrow view.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Funny enough even though I want these changes to take place, I'm actually someone who is weary of this remake and don't think it will do the original justice.
The fact that some people think that Barret's defining characteristic is how he spoke and not that he fought for what he believed in, took in his best friend's daughter and raised her as her own, paid for schooling, was loyal to his friends, and cared more about the well-being of others over his own safety says a lot to me.

I mean...god damn.
At first I misread your post as defending the awful stereotype but realizing what you actually mean...yeah it's really sad that people are equating Barrets character to basically @&#! as his defining and most important trait.
 

ZenTzen

Member
you know whats gonna be great, yuffie and vincent are gonna be properly integrated into the story, with hopefully more interactions, story and character development
 
optional sidequests that can be done at almost any time and involve developing other characters reflects on her...how?

y'all can like Tifa but stop rewriting the game's history to better serve your waifu.

Now you are just plain offending me. I was trying to convey that Tifa doesn't exist only for fanservice and that is is actually a pretty good character. Which she is, by any standards. Most secondary characters have their main purpose to serve as catalysts to the main character. And so what? Does that make Tifa a bad one? I don't even use her in my main party. But for sure FF VII is one of my favorite games and I replayed it recently and know that there are some issues with the game that should be fixed in the remake. But what most are doing in this topic is to reduce the characters to their tropes and ignoring the actual plot and their role in it. And that is just plain ignorance.
 

Lutherian

Member
Nomura face doesn't even make sense in the context of Noctis as he seems to have more personality than a sad rag based on his body language and expressions, but it begs the question of why he looks like that. Also Noctis isn't a racial stereotype, unless we classify Nomura characters as their own race.

Cloud, Squall, Lightning, Noctis, Characters from Kingdom Hearts...
 

Kuraudo

Banned
Wait a minute, you're pointing to this as a bad thing?

Yes, it's a pretty common trope for women to be presented as saviours for introverted young men who ultimately teach them to embrace life to its fullest. Tifa going into Cloud's psyche and literally pulling him out of a catatonic state is a very overt literalisation of this concept. It's problematic because it turns women into therapeutic devices who exist solely for the purpose of enriching the male character's plot development.

SE really need to sell and Tifa/Cloud relationship to make it a lot more than it currently is. Because without any context for why Tifa cares for Cloud, she often feels like a device.

I'm not saying they can't keep the same plot points, but they really need to flesh the relationship out significantly to explain why Tifa is willing to do what she is.
 

anaron

Member
Barret actually is a pretty great, fleshed out character despite the more exaggerated aspects of his speech.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I respect your passion, but not your narrow view.
How is wanting better representation instead of a black stereotype a narrow view?

Cloud, Squall, Lightning, Noctis, Characters from Kingdom Hearts...
Noctis looks like them, (in the worst possible way), but his personality differs quite a bit. And again, they aren't a race, Nomura characters act like robots designed by a dude who's never had a conversation in their life, not an actual race of people.
 

HeelPower

Member
Barret is a terrorist living in slums,its ok if he has a potty mouth and is generally aggressive.

Cid was also pretty vulgar.

I think these traits are important for these characters.They are unpleasant people.
 

PK Gaming

Member
You should care. Those that defend keeping Barrett as he was could be doing so with the motivation of preserving the original content as closely as possible. Fact is, they have their own valid point. Not everyone is trying to keep minorities down and not everything has to be an argument for equality. Barrett was a caricature, yes. But he is also one of the most memorable characters in gaming. There is reason for that.

I'd be more sympathetic towards them if NA Barret wasn't a product of bottom tier localization.

There's literally 0 reason to go back to that. It wasn't part of the original content.

He sounds so lethargic in this trailer...

I wasn't exposed to Mr T Barret at the time thanks to the french translation not fucking up, but I understand perfectly why people would find that shit offensive.

I'd be fine with him no longer being an "angry black man", but he should still be an angry man, just one who happens to be black. His choleric outbursts are a huge part of his character for me, and they work really well with Cloud's smug nonchalance.

Yeah. They still need to keep the spirit of his character but just hold back on the "BOYEEES"
 

Ray Down

Banned
How is wanting better representation instead of a black stereotype a narrow view?


Noctis looks like them, (in the worst possible way), but his personality differs quite a bit. And again, they aren't a race, Nomura characters act like robots designed by a dude who's never had a conversation in their life, not an actual race of people.

At least we got future Noctis.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
At least we got future Noctis.
Child and Adult Noctis look like each other but nothing like Nomura's design, which is pretty hilarious imho, really makes it obvious that Tabata wanted to change the design.
 

Zoe

Member
Kiros in FF8 was the first black character who didn't immediately scream "GIANT BLACK 70's STEREOTYPE HERE!!!" that I can actively think of in my mind.

Probably cause he's more likely to be Persian or Indian, given his name and weapons being Persian in origin.
 

ViolentP

Member
How is wanting better representation instead of a black stereotype a narrow view?

Your decision to want Barrett to be better represented isn't why I find your view narrow. it's your disregarding of every other end of the argument why I do. You're difficult to discuss this with because you seem to have made up your mind regardless of what any other opinion may be.

And the funny thing is, I agree with you in which direction Barrett as a character should go. But you'd have no way of knowing that seeing as you've been busy trying to correct me on something that needed no correcting.

I'd be more sympathetic towards them if NA Barret wasn't a product of bottom tier localization.

There's literally 0 reason to go back to that. It wasn't part of the original content.

And it makes for an opportune time to discuss that fact. Tell someone that the original localization was off when they defend the original characters, don't accuse them of perpetuating old stereotypes.
 

pablito

Member
you know whats gonna be great, yuffie and vincent are gonna be properly integrated into the story, with hopefully more interactions, story and character development

Was Vincents limit good? Cuz I remember not liking it and never using him. But if it's good in the remake, or they balance the limits better (except Omnislash it has to be da bess) then he will definitely be a mainstay in my party.
 

Lutherian

Member
Noctis looks like them, (in the worst possible way), but his personality differs quite a bit. And again, they aren't a race, Nomura characters act like robots designed by a dude who's never had a conversation in their life, not an actual race of people.


They're a style, a cliché, a void of creative juice. Lightning and Cloud uses the same face !

So, I really prefer the characters from FF VII than the Sausage Party of FF XV and that poor excuse of a fan service called Sindy. That's just terrible.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Probably cause he's more likely to be Persian or Indian, given his name and weapons being Persian in origin.

Yeah...I'm going to stick with he is black because his design looks Jamaican influenced. Not only that but I swear Kiros's name origin is Ethiopian.
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
I replay FF7 often, and I would never have considered Barret racist had the internet not told me so. I can see the stereotyping, and it's obvious he is the only black character in the original game world, but these things alone I don't think are racist. They are just flawed for being so obviously observable. Barret has always felt like his own character, from the first time I played the game. Angry save the planet man who loves his kid and fights for what he believes.

As for the HBInn, I see no graceful way to really handle it, and so perhaps they should not try.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
They're a style, a cliché, a void of creative juice. Lightning and Cloud uses the same face !

So, I really prefer the characters from FF VII than the Sausage Party of FF XV and that poor excuse of a fan service called Sindy. That's just terrible.
Oh I agree, but they still aren't a race dude. Race isn't the correct term to use in the context of a creator that has hardcore same face issues.
 

Nerokis

Member
The fact that some people think that Barret's defining characteristic is how he spoke and not that he fought for what he believed in, took in his best friend's daughter and raised her as her own, paid for schooling, was loyal to his friends, and cared more about the well-being of others over his own safety says a lot to me.

I mean...god damn.

Well, in general, the localization is something people remember FFVII for. As flawed as it was, people have to keep in mind that these were low fidelity, highly stylized characters who communicated to us through text bubbles. Sort of like how stage acting isn't conducive toward subtlety, FFVII's characterization (the dialogue, how the characters moved around, etc.) being exaggerated, goofy, and often plainly ridiculous helped make the game memorable.

The thing is, even putting aside that there were problematic aspects that should be changed, it would be impossible to do a 1:1 translation of the original at this point. All the characters are going to seem very familiar, but will also be fundamentally different, and that's both inevitable and appropriate. So, to some extent, the question of how much of the original characterization to preserve almost doesn't matter. It's largely going to come down to what works well with modern technology, and there's a big difference between throwing around !$&@s and actual repeated cursing.
 

anaron

Member
I replay FF7 often, and I would never have considered Barret racist had the internet not told me so. I can see the stereotyping, and it's obvious he is the only black character in the original game world, but these things alone I don't think are racist. They are just flawed for being so obviously observable. Barret has always felt like his own character, from the first time I played the game. Angry save the planet man who loves his kid and fights for what he believes.

As for the HBInn, I see no graceful way to really handle it, and so perhaps they should not try.
...I agree with this.
 

ZenTzen

Member
My favorite thing about the remake being split into parts is that we'll likely get a whole game without Cait Sith. lol

you guys say this, but with the remake we'll get more character development for sith, and more specifically for the character controlling him Reeve, which anyone can agree, is something that lacked in the original game

suffice to say that his gameplay will be improved as well
 

Neoweee

Member
Are there any white people in Final Fantasy VII? I assume most of the light skinned people are Asian by default.

The white-looking character named {Real English Word} {Real English Word} is probably white. It really isn't much of a stretch.
 

Skilletor

Member
Well, in general, the localization is something people remember FFVII for. As flawed as it was, people have to keep in mind that these were low fidelity, highly stylized characters who communicated to us through text bubbles. Sort of like how stage acting isn't conducive toward subtlety, FFVII's characterization (the dialogue, how the characters moved around, etc.) being exaggerated, goofy, and often plainly ridiculous helped make the game memorable.

The thing is, even putting aside that there were problematic aspects that should be changed, it would be impossible to do a 1:1 translation of the original at this point. All the characters are going to seem very familiar, but will also be fundamentally different, and that's both inevitable and appropriate. So, to some extent, the question of how much of the original characterization to preserve almost doesn't matter. It's largely going to come down to what works well with modern technology, and there's a big difference between throwing around !$&@s and actual repeated cursing.

Yes, but I think it is a problem that HOW he talked and not what he said and did is what people say is a crucial part of the character.
 

Dremark

Banned
you know whats gonna be great, yuffie and vincent are gonna be properly integrated into the story, with hopefully more interactions, story and character development

If Yuffie doesn't stay a 100% optional character I'm skipping the remake even if everything thing else is to my liking. I picked her up for 1 playthough and that was more than enough for me.

Vincent is fine either way though.
 

ZenTzen

Member
If Yuffie doesn't stay a 100% optional character I'm skipping the remake even if everything thing else is to my liking. I picked her up for 1 playthough and that was more than enough for me.

Vincent is fine either way though.

thats not gonna happen, so its better you come to terms with it
 

OrionX

Member
you guys say this, but with the remake we'll get more character development for sith, and more specifically for the character controlling him Reeve, which anyone can agree, is something that lacked in the original game

suffice to say that his gameplay will be improved as well

Yeah I don't mind more Reeve, he was very underdeveloped in the original. Cait Sith just always annoyed me, especially with how he casually forces his way into the party and everyone just shrugs and accepts it, then everything that happened after made it worse. My main fear is that adding in va will make me dislike him even more. :p

If Yuffie doesn't stay a 100% optional character I'm skipping the remake even if everything thing else is to my liking. I picked her up for 1 playthough and that was more than enough for me.

Vincent is fine either way though.

Personally, I'd rather have a more cohesive story, which is harder to do with optional characters. I'd especially like Vincent to have more backstory, considering how closely connected he is to Sephiroth's past. If they're optional they can't spend as much time on developing them and integrating them into they story.
 
Perhaps you have reading comprehension issues, I literally stated exactly how I would deal with it if the games forces me to use her.

Don't think they will force you to use her .
Still they most likely will make you get her and she will play a bigger part of the game.
 
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